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Slazton
13-07-2005, 02:30
Okay I know Daemons are created in their God's vision and stuff etc, but are they just created or do they start as minor daemons and work their way up the 'food chain' or are you a Bloodletter forever?

I am curious as some Daemon Princes are 'made' by their Gods, but was this Daemon Prince (say of Slaanesh) once a minor Daemon (aka Daemonette)?

I am just wondering as its not something I have come across in my readings and also, are all Greater Daemons made from the Warp? In fact are Greaters just created or is this some process? What makes that Daemon?

I personally would welcome the idea of the 'rank' system as it happens with Mortals and it could make things easier. Is the Warp just filled with these Daemons 'floating' around or what?

Just wondering what the Fluff monkeys think

Kiro
13-07-2005, 02:35
I'd presume fixed rank, and I think there are no "daemon" daemon princes. I don't know why, it just seems that the current trend is that every daemon prince was once a mortal....except for the one Tzeentch daemon prince, though I feel that was yet another example of GW screwing Tzeentch :mad:

Essia
13-07-2005, 02:38
iI'd say both are true depending on the whims of the Chaos Gods. if a particular lesser daemon does a mighty deed, it mat well please the gods to make that daemon into something better. However Nurgle might accidently sneeze out a greater daemon for no particular reason.

TenTailedCat
13-07-2005, 02:38
Perhpas someone with a Liber Chaotica can shed some more light before I slay them with my Nemesis weapon.

Slazton
13-07-2005, 02:39
Read Daemonworld, the Blood God Daemon Prince was created. Not a mortal at one time. The one in Grey Knights I believe was not mortall. One of Nurgle's Daemon Princes in a very old 2nd edition book 'Dark Imperium' was not once mortal.

I am just interested in Daemons more than anything, as I feel they are left high and dry in fluff, other than the bad guys

Slazton
13-07-2005, 02:44
Oh yes, the Liber Chaoticas help, but I would like to know more. As if I have a thirst to learn more about this tainted fruit :p

Strikerkc
13-07-2005, 03:20
Deamons can gain power and knowledge of dark arts and related things and become more powerfull than they were. Just becuase it's possible doesn't mean all of them can do it. most just don't have ability to oust their current masters and there fore stay in the same essential "level" of power.

Slazton
13-07-2005, 03:23
Deamons can gain power and knowledge of dark arts and related things and become more powerfull than they were. Just becuase it's possible doesn't mean all of them can do it. most just don't have ability to oust their current masters and there fore stay in the same essential "level" of power.

That is all I needed to know. As I am currently doing a RPG* and one of my minor baddies (who is re-occuring) is a Daemonette and it would be lame to have her constantly a Daemonette you know? As she does fullfill her role given to her a plenty.

*Traitor of the Inquisition if anyone is interested :)

So lets imagine a Daemonette gains knowledge and considerable notice, than it is possiable she could be elevated to a Keeper of Secrets or just something else, but more powerful than she was?

Strikerkc
13-07-2005, 04:56
That is all I needed to know. As I am currently doing a RPG* and one of my minor baddies (who is re-occuring) is a Daemonette and it would be lame to have her constantly a Daemonette you know? As she does fullfill her role given to her a plenty.

*Traitor of the Inquisition if anyone is interested :)

So lets imagine a Daemonette gains knowledge and considerable notice, than it is possiable she could be elevated to a Keeper of Secrets or just something else, but more powerful than she was?

Well, the thing with the 40K back ground is that there aren't really deamons in the warp that are "deamonets" or "Keepers of Secrets". Those are mainly names aplied by the inquisition and other official bodies to make war time more logical (the way nations give nick names to enemy air craft). Think of it more along the lines of "deamon" and "Powerfull deamon". Deamons of a certain god aren't all rank and file like in the game, they are all their own individuals creatures, all with their own plans and scheems. It's just that the weaker ones are more easily called into real space by cultists and what not.

To refrase it, the deamonet would not think of it self as a "deamonet", and wouldn't aspire to become a "keeper of secrets". It would simply seek power and influence over it's kin. It might change apearance with the gaining of that power, it might not.

Castigator
13-07-2005, 07:39
Well, the thing with the 40K back ground is that there aren't really deamons in the warp that are "deamonets" or "Keepers of Secrets". Those are mainly names aplied by the inquisition and other official bodies to make war time more logical (the way nations give nick names to enemy air craft). Think of it more along the lines of "deamon" and "Powerfull deamon". Deamons of a certain god aren't all rank and file like in the game, they are all their own individuals creatures, all with their own plans and scheems. It's just that the weaker ones are more easily called into real space by cultists and what not.


Agreed.. and also remember that all in all the Warp is mostly very... ya know .. chaotic.
Deamons as anything in there will likely evolve, devolve, change, multiply, disappear, etc.. at totally random and unpredictable patters and unforseeable reasons. A Greater Deamon of Tzeentch my believe to have found some incredibly arcane and secret way to more power while a Deamon of Slaanesh or Khorne likely wont care.
But in the end, the very idea of hard-and-fast rules for promotion (aswell as the Idea that Deamons remain "unchanged" throughout their existence) seems very un-chaotic too me.

Talkie Toaster
13-07-2005, 20:36
To refrase it, the deamonet would not think of it self as a "deamonet", and wouldn't aspire to become a "keeper of secrets". It would simply seek power and influence over it's kin. It might change apearance with the gaining of that power, it might not.
That actually poses an interesting question, what DOES happen to a Slaaneshi daemon that consumes enough souls or whatever? The whole point of the Keepers of Secrets is that they are the old Eldar Gods. It looks like there are a few rungs missing on the Slaaneshi career progression ladder, although whether that's because 10,000 years is too little for a deamon to rise to Greater Daemonhood, or whether it's GW oversight...

Strikerkc
13-07-2005, 22:08
That actually poses an interesting question, what DOES happen to a Slaaneshi daemon that consumes enough souls or whatever? The whole point of the Keepers of Secrets is that they are the old Eldar Gods. It looks like there are a few rungs missing on the Slaaneshi career progression ladder, although whether that's because 10,000 years is too little for a deamon to rise to Greater Daemonhood, or whether it's GW oversight...


It's not that the rungs are missing, there's just no real way to distinguish in game and no stead fast fluff comparison. A creature of the warp about to try and kill you to take your soul, is still a creature of the warp about to kill you to take your soul by any other name ;).

Think of it this way, the last deamonets in the squad to die are the ones that were on a higher rung :cool:.

Jal'knock
13-07-2005, 23:06
I'd say that Daemons are of pretty much fixed status, determined by their God. I doubt that there are actual ranks or rungs in their existence, just that some daemonettes are more powerful than others and thus some great unclean ones are more powerful than others etc.

Strictly Commercial
14-07-2005, 05:47
Daemons are created in their god's image? I thought daemons were created because violent emotions of the sentient races created disturbances in the warp which eventually grew into personified aspects of said emotions. I can't recall exactly where I read this, however, and it is possibly a later addition to the fluff.

But, if such is the case, then I would say they do grow in power. Simply because they have been from the moment the very seed of raw warp disturbance from which they grew came into being. I do agree that they don't grow in specific ways, i.e. a daemonette identifying itself as such, it's just that to run a game effectively, all the daemons that are "close" to one another have to have the same set of stats.

Iracundus
14-07-2005, 12:53
The daemons of the 4 Major Powers of Chaos are, if you read the Liber Chaotica and old Realms of Chaos books carefully, not merely created servants of their god but fragments of that very same god given self identity. They can be re-absorbed (ie dissolved and killed) if their god so wishes.

Only Nurgle creates Greater Daemons in its own image. Each Great Unclean One is basically a clone of Nurgle, with the same motivations and personality, but with correspondingly lesser power and a seperate daemonic name.

wibble
14-07-2005, 14:58
I agree. Since daemons are never 'killed', just sent back to the warp then they can be 're-absorbed'. However, the notion of true names for daemons leading to possibilties of being dragged back into real space suggests that daemons are more often than not just left alone by their god. This is just those daemons that make it into real space. THe daemons that serve the gods directly in the warp would most likely by changed/absorbed/created/etc. to serve a specific purpose.

BloodiedSword
14-07-2005, 23:42
If you think of a Daemon as simply a manifestation of a certain amount of Warp energy, it becomes simpler.

Then, you have first the bottom rung, the lesser daemons - these are temporary forms that come and go and can materialise easily. These would be daemons like nurglings, or others generally too varied and/or weak to be mentioned in 40k.

Then, if a certain manifestation is powerful enough and resilient enough, it may be able to maintain its form and shape it more clearly in the form of its patron god, cementing itself as (say) a bloodletter or daemonette. However, it is still just a daemon, feral and vicious but not intelligent as such.

But if it continues to survive and thrive, it might start becoming more powerful, and control enough energy to maintain itself within the Warp and begin forming a personality, and so on.

For an example, I believe the Tzeentch Daemon Prince in the 2nd Edition Chaos Codex was an elevated Lord of Change.

Nazguire
15-07-2005, 08:58
Some daemons do indeed advance throughout the ranks. In Eye of Terror, the Tzeentchian Greater Daemon (name too long and hard to remember) tries to advance through the ranks of his fellow GD's through manipulation of mortals. I am however not sure about the others, but as far as I see, the smaller little daemons can't advance, especially the dumb little ones like Nurglings. They are, in my mind, little more than animals made from warp-stuff, with little to no sentience at all.

MvS
15-07-2005, 17:07
I see daemons as dividing into three very general groups:

1. Dedicated daemons - those that are personified aspects of their 'parent' deity. So Fleshhounds might be a manifestation of Khornes implacable and inescapable fury, while the Horrors of Tzeentch might be manifestations of Tzeentch's permenantly shifting randomness, etc.

2. Unaligned daemons - those daemons that have formed and gained consciousness through a gradual coagulation of related thoughts, concepts, emotion etc within the Warp. So a minor daemon of The Frustration of Stubbing Ones Toes would be one of these (as a rather silly example)

3. Ascended mortal - often called Daemon Princes, those daemons who are in fact the complete souls and bodies of mortals, only built upon, improved and saturated with warp energy by a deity so that the mortal becomes completely immortal and immensely powerful - ergo a daemon. This kind of daemon may have its own complex motivations, which the daemons of the previous two varieties may not.

These are very simple divisions, but they stand up to scrutiny. Rather than list lots of examples and explanation right off, why not ask questions and raise criticisms for me to address, and by doing so expand on the explanations above...

Talkie Toaster
15-07-2005, 22:20
I see daemons as dividing into three very general groups:

1. Dedicated daemons
2. Unaligned daemons
3. Ascended mortal
I sort of saw it slightly differently, that Daemonic beats were warp entities that had fed on reasonable amounts of emotion but not enough to gain sentience, then you had true Daemons which had picked up a personality and thought processes through virtue of being shaped by the stuff they ate, and then they just went on up to Greater Daemon, and then God (although the current contenders for Gods presumably eat anything that looks like threatening them).

Nazguire
16-07-2005, 07:31
Well to me they are this

You have your little runty daemons. The ones that are Furies and all those other irritating little nuisances. They gradually form bodies after people are (MvS stated) Stubbing Ones Toes and Getting Really Mad too many times. They are just essentially animals

The daemons that are of a particular God that are too little more than animals. Daemonettes and Bloodletters for example, seem to act on little more than instinct and the semblance of sentience. Through possession they may 'leach' intelligence from their host and become super-daemons but other than that they are your average Daemon. They may get stronger, depending if they do exemplary service, but apart from that I can not see Bloodletters or Horrors getting 'promoted' as it were.

The Greater Daemons. Being far more intelligent than mere mortals (including the Bloodthirster) they DO have a power structure, and constantly plot against each other for more oppurtunities to advance in said God's favour. Now you could be really nitty gritty here and say that the Gods of Chaos are not a particular conscience but merely the Daemons Hive Mind but I'm not going to go there. Tzeentchian Daemons and Khornate Daemons especially I can see plotting and planning. Either through schemes or mass-murder.

Then you have the Daemon Princes. Partly Daemon, Partly physical mortal shell, they are a lot more powerful then your average animal daemon but still pale to a Greater Daemon in comparison, at least to start off with. If any Daemon has a way to advance and be promoted, these guys are it. As they are...were..mortals they'd still have ambitions, temptations etc etc so are more likely to move and get more favour. I see them are religious, while the Greater Daemons just work for the 'boss' as it were.