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bloodlust
05-01-2007, 06:42
The most recent game I have played was with Orks, against an Eldar army, in a modified Secure and Control (I'm unsure as to whether or not that was the exact mission, I knew what I had to do) where my troops began either infiltrating or on the board edge. The Eldar were within 12" of the central objective, which they had to hold, and I had to secure by the game's end. The battle was 1500 points. The armies:

Eldar Army:

HQ:Farseer

HS:Wraithlord w/ Warlock (singing spear, shuriken pistol)

TR:10 Dire Avengers with an Exarch x 2

EL:6 Striking Scorpions with an Exarch

TR:5 Rangers

HSx2:2 War Walkers (as separate choices) with a Star Cannon and Missile Launcher on each

TR:10 Guardians with a Shuriken Cannon Platform, with a Warlock, in a tooled out Wave Serpent.

Ork Horde:

HQ:Warboss w/ combi shoota/skorcha, 2 squigs, eavy armor

HQ:Big Mek w/ KFF, choppa

TR:18 Slugga Boyz, 3 Big Shootas, Klaw Nob

TR:18 Slugga Boyz, 3 Rokkit Launchas, Klaw Nob

TR:10 Shoota Boyz

TR:10 Burna Boyz, Mek with KFF, 4 Burnaz

TR:16 Gretchin with a Slaver

TR:11 Kroot, Shaper with Eviscerator and Slugga

HS:2 Killa Kanz w/ Rokkit Launchas

HS:1 Killa Kan w/ Rokkit Launcha

HS:1 Looted Leman Russ with a hull heavy bolter, side sponson heavy bolters, and extra armor


This will partially mix elements of a battle report with a few potential changes that could be made to balance the next Ork codex to the level that the current Eldar Codex is at. I'd heartily welcome any ideas anyone else comes up with as effective potential solutions, as I'd like to email GW with my ideas once the thread has spread out fluidly, as far as revision ideas go.

I've played Orks for around a year, and I know how to play my army, and how to position units. I know what to do with my Ork army so it has a fighting chance against most opponents I play. My opponent, however, was playing his fourth game of Eldar. Granted, he is a great tactician, but is still acculturating himself to the new Army. I wholly understand that the rolls I rolled during the game largely influenced the outcome, but I feel as though Ork statistics played a fantastic role in annihilating my army for me. The Eldar Army's result was victorious slaughter. What I mean to say, is that the regular Ork army cannot be as effective as any other army. I know that this is the general consensus with this codex, but I feel as though the Ork codex is an ineffective on an extreme level, as in, a joke. The main issue, I believe, is Ork leadership.

As I wanted to mass boyz in a medium sized game, I did not upgrade my Nobz beyond having a PK. Therefore, I was rolling Ld tests at 7. I triumphantly failed leadership tests, and as my army was on the edge of the board for the first turn, I lost the shoota squad and the 18 man slugga squad with 3 big shootas. Having to take the objective by force, I'm having to charge into a horde of Eldar who have been barely scraped by Ork fire. The ups of my first turn shooting is that his Wraithlord took 2 wounds, and I thinned one dire avenger squad. The downs are that everything else was perfectly fine.

After having half my army fall off the board, victory was unmanageable. My arguement is THIS: The Ork Army list needs a new incentive, a new tool. It needs a radiant advantage that makes other players drool with envy. Having a high number of strikes with choppas doesn't matter when you're striking at S3. Having big squads doesn't matter when Ld 7 and I2 allows you to get run over conveniently. Having PKs doesn't matter when your enemy has ablative wounds around their ICs. The Orks need a new edge. The question is, what? My solution, is S5. It sounds absurd, but consider it closely. S5 makes an Ork Boy wound a marine on a 3+. Consider the implications of a 3+ roll- the majority of imperial armies (WH, DH, and SM) have that, always to hit while shooting. Ork shooting is breathtaking if it kills something. As such, the Ork army lies in close combat. S3 doesn't cut it, as their number of strikes is negated by the failure to wound, and therefore choppas are minimized. S4 doesn't work, because the Orks need increased ability to kill lightly armored walkers in combat, because relying on S4 is entirely unrealistic. S5 revitalizes the Orks. S5 makes Ork close combat the glorious vision it was meant to be.

My other ideas: Ld 8 for Boyz, or decrease in Boy cost.

I'd love to hear your positions.

Griffin
05-01-2007, 08:30
S5 - no - orks arn't suppose to be on a par with marine strength. But as for LD8 and a Decrease - i'd say both. Orks are ment to be numerous just like the imperial gaurd. Even more so infact - Plus this will help your squads stick around once they are thinned down - or what about making orks LD 8 as soon as they are less than 10 boys in a squad, but keep the decreased cost.

I don't know much - only playing orks like 3 games so far.

Curufew
05-01-2007, 08:42
They need to be faster. Currently, I feel that they're too slow.

Ravenous
05-01-2007, 08:48
They need to be cheaper about 8pts standard (maybe 7) because a 6+ and no combat for 3 or 4 turns and weak shooting is just lame.

Beating orks is alot like taking candy from a baby. It's easy as hell but you end up feeling bad afterwards :P

bratbag
05-01-2007, 09:31
Personaly i felt that your big mek was wasted there. He doesn't bring that much to the table if you already have a burna boyz KFF. The dropped points there would let you either

A:Get the LD upgrade for da boyz and bulk up the shoota boyz with big shooters

or

B:Increase your numbers to the extent that you can ignore leadership problems thanks to mob-size checks.


I'm puzzled how your shooter boyz and one of your slugger squads ran off the table in the first turn, as unless you take really atrocious casualties your large squads will stick in there thanks to mob size checks (even your smaller squads effectively get a second leadership test).

Given the amount of cover you brought with you (2 KFF's and a grot screen) you either

A: Deployed really poorly

B: Rolled like a monkey

C: Came up against a tailored anti-hoard list, in which case there isn't much you can do with a ground-pounder list (being an inherently all-rounder force)

I speak from experience myself, having being an ork player since 'just' as 2nd edition came out.My own ground-pounders do fine, though i do have the pleasure of playing people that don't tailor their lists.

Orks certainly are tricky to use, and do need a few tweaks (warboss, basic boy cost and some wargear changes is about all im looking for) but they can and will win when constructed and used correctly.

Griffin
05-01-2007, 09:31
BUT - winning with Orks is glorius !

Irondog
05-01-2007, 09:32
Candy from a baby?! I'm not sure what kind of Ork players your facing, Ravenous, but they need a sound beating around the head and face.

Orks can be dead tough when fielded correctly, granted blowing leadership rolls is part of playing Orks, but that's where mob size comes in. I could care less if your leadership roll is crap, as long as you have at least 10 guys left in the mob, you're on par with marines for sticking in the battle.

I feel S5 would be a bit much for a boost. Griffin is correct, Orks aren't meant to be on par with marines when it comes to strength. However an Ork charge is supposed to be death incarnate. Some sort of 'furious charge' bonus when you make a waaagh check could even the oods a bit. That way when you get the charge, woe to the poor bastard on the receiving end.

If you're curious about how some of the boys on Warseer play their orks, check the link in my sig, there's some good stuff in there from a good number of Ork players.

Gensuke626
05-01-2007, 09:36
Bloodlust...you're saying that your problem is Ork Ld...now I can understand this sentiment...
But did you remember to make mob size checks and to mob up when appropriate? I normally wouldn't ask this of anyone who's played orks for longer than 4-5 months, but your report implies that you were failing morale checks with mobs that were larger than 12 orks...

Ravenous
05-01-2007, 09:44
Candy from a baby?! I'm not sure what kind of Ork players your facing, Ravenous, but they need a sound beating around the head and face.

Orks can be dead tough when fielded correctly, granted blowing leadership rolls is part of playing Orks, but that's where mob size comes in. I could care less if your leadership roll is crap, as long as you have at least 10 guys left in the mob, you're on par with marines for sticking in the battle.

I feel S5 would be a bit much for a boost. Griffin is correct, Orks aren't meant to be on par with marines when it comes to strength. However an Ork charge is supposed to be death incarnate. Some sort of 'furious charge' bonus when you make a waaagh check could even the oods a bit. That way when you get the charge, woe to the poor bastard on the receiving end.

If you're curious about how some of the boys on Warseer play their orks, check the link in my sig, there's some good stuff in there from a good number of Ork players.

I think the face and head beatings was their original problem :D

The only ork that gave me a challenge thus far is the feral orks with 120 S5 mad boys and 3 massive squigoths and even then. They are too slow.

I havent lost to them yet. I'm hoping the codex will change that. And I agree furious charge would be a great bonus ontop of the WAAGH.

I used to play Speed freeks back when Armageddon came out. They needed to outnumber marines 2:1 just to barely win a combat. against anything that was above average in combat would just trounce you.

Irondog
05-01-2007, 10:54
I agree that speed freeks do have trouble with MEQs. Their low squad size is a big problem. I used to play speed freeks and then switched to footsloggers because the freeks played too much like eldar. Speed and finesse, potentially powerful, however; if you lose your concentration or you hit a snag, it can be over for you in a hurry. My win percentage is much higher with footslogger orks than any other army I have played.

The argument of 'too slow' I don't neccessarily agree with. Yes the footslogging horde is a ponderous beast, but with enough distraction units and other goodies you can pose a real problem to any army. You can also cover enough of the board with greenskins that you opponent will have no place to run. The thing you need to realize with Orks is that the first half of the game will usually hurt. A lot. But when you get there, the look on your opponents face will be priceless.

Forbiddenknowledge
05-01-2007, 11:14
Eldar Army:

HS:Wraithlord w/ Warlock (singing spear, shuriken pistol)



Well, that ain't legal, I'm sure.

spikydavid
05-01-2007, 12:05
...
I used to play Speed freeks back when Armageddon came out. They needed to outnumber marines 2:1 just to barely win a combat. against anything that was above average in combat would just trounce you.

Really? I used to reckon one-to-one versus marines would leave everybody dead, which was always fine by me, as I outnumbered him two-to-one.

UncleCrazy
05-01-2007, 13:08
Well were as strong as MEQs back in the day (If i remember right) I was one of the people who really hated the new Orc Codex when it came out.

But those do not account for this player here. Sounds like you did not deploy your army well or you put them too close to the eage of the table.

Between mob size and Ld orc are one of the hardest armies to break and run, in the first place. Then with joining other squads means that breaking and running should not be a problem. Another problem is where are you grots? Grots are one of the best rulez in the Codex.

You are saying you need something new but then you didn't use what you had.

Why you got Kroot in there? They suck, and are not very Orky.

Deviant
05-01-2007, 13:15
why not have a leadership bonus for the number of boyz in a mob? for example +1 for every 8 boyz, up to a max of ten. an average squad would then be LD 8 or 9, when they mob up it'd be 10!

I used to play orks when they first came out, they were great, not much could stop them. They were basically THE assault army back then. Problem is now almost all armies can be tailored for shooting or assault, except for orks as they're weapons are just not numerous or strong enough for them to make important shots count, they have to mostly rely on PKs to take out hard vehicles.

My question is why were orks so good when they came out and barely seen now as they're innefective?

gitburna
05-01-2007, 13:18
The most recent game I have played was with Orks, against an Eldar army, in a modified Secure and Control (I'm unsure as to whether or not that was the exact mission, I knew what I had to do) where my troops began either infiltrating or on the board edge. The Eldar were within 12" of the central objective, which they had to hold, and I had to secure by the game's end. The battle was 1500 points. The armies:

Eldar Army:

HQ:Farseer

HS:Wraithlord w/ Warlock (singing spear, shuriken pistol)

TR:10 Dire Avengers with an Exarch x 2

EL:6 Striking Scorpions with an Exarch

TR:5 Rangers

HSx2:2 War Walkers (as separate choices) with a Star Cannon and Missile Launcher on each

TR:10 Guardians with a Shuriken Cannon Platform, with a Warlock, in a tooled out Wave Serpent.

Ork Horde:

HQ:Warboss w/ combi shoota/skorcha, 2 squigs, eavy armor

HQ:Big Mek w/ KFF, choppa

TR:18 Slugga Boyz, 3 Big Shootas, Klaw Nob

TR:18 Slugga Boyz, 3 Rokkit Launchas, Klaw Nob

TR:10 Shoota Boyz

TR:10 Burna Boyz, Mek with KFF, 4 Burnaz

TR:16 Gretchin with a Slaver

TR:11 Kroot, Shaper with Eviscerator and Slugga

HS:2 Killa Kanz w/ Rokkit Launchas

HS:1 Killa Kan w/ Rokkit Launcha

HS:1 Looted Leman Russ with a hull heavy bolter, side sponson heavy bolters, and extra armor

My position here is that you must have had just an unfortunate experience with the Boyz. Did your stuff come on in dribs and drabs from reserve??
What kind of table were you playing on?

I look at your army and wonder how you managed to fair so badly. Ive got ork and eldar armies, along with a whole cavalcade of other stuff and i really cant see how you came so unstuck. One thing i will add though is that you're seriously underestimating ork Shooting. Of course its BS2, but this just serves to make it all the more important what you shoot at and how you use it.

Your 10 ork shoota squad for example is a waste of points. Stick a nob, 3 extra boyz and some big shootas in there and suddenly it looks a bit more threatening, but even so i never [never] take to battle without my 20 shootas mob which always do me proud.

I suspect that the biggest problem your list faces is that its got a weak amount of fire, 6 rokkit shots [2 hits a turn?!] 3 big shootas [3 hits a turn = less than one dead marine!] and a pieplate. Its nothing to write home about.
Yes i know the orks strength is in close combat but essentially your opponent can do what he likes until you make it to within 12" of him. Consider that every time you kill a dire avenger with shooting that you would have saved yourself 2/3 of an ork, [and 1 whole ork if we assume that they would have bladestormed you in their final shooting phase] per turn in shooting casualties let alone the kills they'd have scored first on your orks in the assault.

As a result my own hopes for the next codex are that they dont just make the orks into green tyranids.. a wave of orks dying just so the nob can get there and do some crumping, but rather give them a points break on stormboyz and bikeboyz, and trim the fat from the heavy support section to make it more effective and not just something for the enemy to shoot its otherwise ineffective lascannons at. Units like Lobbas and Kannonz have great potential to be deadly weapons to enemy vehicles and infantry, but they're currently a bit underwhelming [im talking about the kannonz in particular here cos i already use lobbas to reasonably good effect], im just itching for an excuse to make some from my vast bits box and my 6 other heavy support choices be damned!

bratbag
05-01-2007, 13:53
why not have a leadership bonus for the number of boyz in a mob? for example +1 for every 8 boyz, up to a max of ten. an average squad would then be LD 8 or 9, when they mob up it'd be 10!

I used to play orks when they first came out, they were great, not much could stop them. They were basically THE assault army back then. Problem is now almost all armies can be tailored for shooting or assault, except for orks as they're weapons are just not numerous or strong enough for them to make important shots count, they have to mostly rely on PKs to take out hard vehicles.

My question is why were orks so good when they came out and barely seen now as they're innefective?

They effectively do have a second leadership test that works like this. Base LD is 0 and you get +1 ld for every ork in the mob.Oh and this second LD can exceed 12 (insta pass).Its called a mob size check and means that large ork mobs can effectively never be broken.Im sure you know this already though :)

Don't get me started on ork shooting. Thanks to the nature of orky heavy weapons (ie they are all assault weapons) every assault unit in our force bar stormboyz can have at least 3 heavy weapons (4 if you equip the nob with one) and fire them every turn without stopping their advance. Big shooters on everything and rokkits only on tankbusters and twin-linked mounts seems to work best.Burners are for skarboyz and truck boyz.

My 1500pt ground pounder list doesn't have any non-advancing components (2000 and above has plenty) and it kicks out 33 big shooter shots, 4 rokkits (1 on the grot slaver, makes the unit funny) and a demolisher cannon round each turn. Thats plenty of dakka even if two thirds of it miss.

Deviant
05-01-2007, 14:08
They effectively do have a second leadership test that works like this. Base LD is 0 and you get +1 ld for every ork in the mob.Oh and this second LD can exceed 12 (insta pass).Its called a mob size check and means that large ork mobs can effectively never be broken.Im sure you know this already though :)

My ork codex got lost years ago, and as said i barely play them, ever. hence i forget stuff. shame really as orks are fun to play against if you want a game that's not too serious (i once death or gloried a disarmed skorcha for a laugh with a lictor, and the lictor got squished!)

gitburna
05-01-2007, 14:19
Big shooters on everything and rokkits only on tankbusters and twin-linked mounts seems to work best.Burners are for skarboyz and truck boyz.......Thats plenty of dakka even if two thirds of it miss.

I think mine is roughly 40/40/20 split, the 40s being rokkits and big shootas of all sort, the 20 being the occasional burna and skorcha, lobba, zzap gun etc

Im struggling when im fighting tau, particulalrly mecha tau because i lack rokkits and my bigshootas do practically nothing, but other than that im fairly alright.

bratbag
05-01-2007, 14:31
My ork codex got lost years ago, and as said i barely play them, ever. hence i forget stuff. shame really as orks are fun to play against if you want a game that's not too serious (i once death or gloried a disarmed skorcha for a laugh with a lictor, and the lictor got squished!)

So the answer seems to be, as always, that orks are only bad when people don't know how to take advantage of their rules (or in your case forget that the rules exist :D ) and don't realise the full potential of the list.


And yes gitburner, orkish lack of longranged anti-tank firepower causes us a VERY large headache against mech tau. Looted ordinance and lots o' grots seems to be the only way to go with a foot slogging force against them damn fish-heads.

Deviant
05-01-2007, 14:43
So the answer seems to be, as always, that orks are only bad when people don't know how to take advantage of their rules (or in your case forget that the rules exist :D ) and don't realise the full potential of the list.


And yes gitburner, orkish lack of longranged anti-tank firepower causes us a VERY large headache against mech tau. Looted ordinance and lots o' grots seems to be the only way to go with a foot slogging force against them damn fish-heads.

i was good with my orks, i liked them a lot, just over years of not using them units and the codex got lost, then i went over to guard and gave them all away to a friend about a year ago, who now doesn't seem to use them :mad:

oh, and i meant 'i barely play against them', sorry

susu.exp
05-01-2007, 15:39
Crunching some numbers I get that Orks always have better chances to stay in a fight than regular Ld 7 troops, due to mob size checks. A mob size of 6 is better than Ld8, a mob size of 8 beats Ld9 and a mob size of 9 beats Ld10. And of course a mob size of 12+ just means no running.

So the +1 Ld per 8 boys would really hurt the Orks abiliity to stay in a fight.

Irondog
05-01-2007, 16:37
Why you got Kroot in there? They suck, and are not very Orky.


Your 10 ork shoota squad for example is a waste of points.

I have to agree with both of these points. I don'y have a Kroot Merc list in front of me, so I'm not sure of the points. It seems to me it's probably 100 points easy. If that's the case, there's plenty you can put into your list with those points that would a whole lot scarier than Kroot.

Now the shootas. They're not that effective in the best of times when compared to other units in the codex, but not giving them big shootas or a nob is definitely a waste. If you want something effective for those 80 points, especially against eldar, use 2 skorcha buggies. They're 38 points a pop without options and will gain their points back and then some by turn 2. Boost 24" up the side behind cover on turn 1, then pop out turn 2 and lay waste. Those aspect wearriors will die on a 2+, from a template weapon, no save no nothing. Gotta love anything that takes the orks BS 2 out of the equation.

UncleCrazy
05-01-2007, 17:17
Well I am helping a friend built an Ork army. last weekend 400 pts game

Orc vs BA

20 sluggas 3 rokkits nob with some tweaks (not much)
16 shootas 3 big shoota nob with big shoota.

right at 400pts

BA 3 5 man squads with Rocket laucher 1 5 man sqaud with VS and powerweapon. a few other things but that is about it.

My girlfriend got 5 DeathCompany and took a Rhino 0.o" I know it is only a Combat Patrol....

End of the game Orks win. The shoota squad took out all 3 Rocket Laucher squads and the VS after he failed a charge(he was the only one left out of the DC and his squad), while the DC and VS squad took out the Sluggas.

bloodlust
05-01-2007, 18:12
I agree about the shoota squad. I was trying them out and didn't consider how ineffectual a 10 boy squad would be. The kroot however have many advantages that people overlook in criticizing them. First of all, they have BS 3. This is a significant statistic, unorky as it may be, but it helps greatly when rapidly firing a S4 AP6 gun. Also, Kroot have S4. Given the Shaper with eviscerator, the Kroot squad can deal out an immense amount of hurt. I've had it kill a 10 man space marine command squad by shooting once and charging.

Regarding deployment: I had to muster the greatest amount of firepower I could on the first turn, due to my limited number of effective guns. As such, I had to load everything very tightly along the board edge so the grotz and KFFs could have maximum effect. His army was in the center of the table, so he had full access. So yes, his shooting rolls were breathtaking, and yes, my Ld tests were blatantly failed on 11s every time.

Regarding the big mek: I NEVER consider taking a KFF big mek to be a waste of points. The KFF has nearly always paid back its weight in gold, and when the army is forced to divide, as many missions state it must, both halves of the army can benefit from it. Having a cover save against an army with relatively strong shooting, especially Eldar, is very nice.

However, in retrospect, I agree with the poster who stated I needed more gunz. I should've dropped the small shoota squad and 1 kan possibly for another slugga squad with 3 rokkits.

Quick question, though, is it legal to have a Warboss join a unit of Grotz? That way they'd have Ld9 and the Warboss could take an awesome number of ablative hits in CC.

skar kid
05-01-2007, 18:16
iv just started orks and before them i played space marines. (which to be honest i think have far too high stats). i think ork boyz should be decreased in cost by 1 pt and have str 4. I dont realy unterstand how you failed so many ld tests because in a squad of 12 + you cant! in a ork army i would suggest have all your boyz armed with chopas and slugas because lets face it their bs sucks! and i would have squads of 30. Personaly i find that komandoz are good because they are good moving through cover and they are only +1 pt which isnt realy much. For me i like to use a few war trukks to get to the enemy fast . Storm boyz do get to the enemy very fast however they do cost alot for a fast ork!

P.S guns are a no go for me in a ork army

skar kid
05-01-2007, 18:20
no offence uncle crazy but you seem to be turning bloodangels into a shooty army which they realy arnt stick to assult they have some realy good rules!!

UncleCrazy
05-01-2007, 19:02
Skar kid that is not quite true, saying they are not a shooty army. The BA armies I have played against is Shooty with a Chaplin holding the DC back till they are needed. Yeah they run sometimes, that is easy to deal with don't take Devs. No my G/F lost because she attacked the sluggas first and not the Shootas. The Shootas were just putting too many dice at her squads which were underszied b/c of the DC. The only other Assualt army you could make with BA is by using scouts, and big shootas would have ripped them up bad. Also remember this was a CP so only 400pts

Helicon_One
05-01-2007, 19:08
So yes, his shooting rolls were breathtaking, and yes, my Ld tests were blatantly failed on 11s every time.
Considering this statement, I'm struggling to figure out how you reached your conclusions in the original post. Strength 5 wouldn't have helped you one bit in this game, because you never got as far as combat with anything more than a token gesture (if that). Ld8 wouldn't have helped you one bit either, because you'd still have failed those initial Ld tests and you'd have still been testing against your Mob Size before the unit fell back.

As you say, though, this was a game where your opponent had massively good fortune with his shooting rolls and you were terribly unlucky with Ld. In addition it handily favoured the Eldar army by forcing you to advance into a firestorm whilst the enemy knew exactly where you were heading and could position accordingly, and you were using a list containing minimal ranged firepower thus denying yourself the opportunity to significantly batter down the defenders on the way in. As such its not really a good example of typical gaming to use to push for revisions to a list.

Tim

skar kid
05-01-2007, 19:11
yeah i suppose but for the main druving force of the army i wold use a 10 men assult squad with a chapie joined on to it then have instead of the rocket launchers heavey bolters and them get the 5 man squads in behind some cover at a safe distance from his choppas and sluggers thenshot them to bits whilst assulting his shootas

Gensuke626
05-01-2007, 21:36
iv just started orks and before them i played space marines. (which to be honest i think have far too high stats). i think ork boyz should be decreased in cost by 1 pt and have str 4. I dont realy unterstand how you failed so many ld tests because in a squad of 12 + you cant! in a ork army i would suggest have all your boyz armed with chopas and slugas because lets face it their bs sucks! and i would have squads of 30. Personaly i find that komandoz are good because they are good moving through cover and they are only +1 pt which isnt realy much. For me i like to use a few war trukks to get to the enemy fast . Storm boyz do get to the enemy very fast however they do cost alot for a fast ork!

P.S guns are a no go for me in a ork army

you know Skarkid, I used to think like you. I used to sit back and say "Shoota Boyz? Why use them? For 1 point more I can get Choppas and the ability to charge after shooting." But recently I've gotten myself into a local instore campaign, and I'm quickly realizing that there are 2 ways I can go with Orks to make them effective.

Either I can take an ork Footslogger army with No Assaulty Vehicles and a HUGE mess of Slugga Boyz (Because they will get shot at and they will die in droves), or I can take a wartrak rumble styled army, take a few assaulty vehicles, and save points by taking shoota boyz. The decreased points means increased numbers, something that I need to make up for if my Warboss ever wants to use his pretty battle wagon and/or trukka boyz.

On top of that, I can do things like give my army a serious Anti-Tank punch if I equip every squad with 3 rokkits then hand the nob a Rokkit too. 2 sluggaz and a tank busta squad already spells 12 rokkits, 4 of which are effectively S9. It all goes back to something that I always said but never believed untill I Started playing orks.
"There are 3 kinds of Shooting. Marines, who don't put out many shots, but makes sure that ever shot counts, Guard who put out just enough bullets to compensate for not being marines, and Orks, who get together in mobs to form one 'UGE Shotgun."

susu.exp
05-01-2007, 21:48
i think ork boyz should be decreased in cost by 1 pt and have str 4.

If you want S4 boys: Mad Doc + Cyborks.


in a ork army i would suggest have all your boyz armed with chopas and slugas because lets face it their bs sucks!

Ah, the words of a new Ork player. Why do they always start by thinking Goff? How are you going to deal with The 'nids heavy critters? Even with Orks charging a Carnifex, HT or Broodlord is a bit daft. Or those dreads and wraithlords. You said it S3. You might slaughter guardsmen (if they donīt manage to shoot you to bits while you walk up to them), but beware if they brought a Russ.
Iīd say that every boy that can should have one of the Orky bigger guns, big shootas, rokkit launchas, burnas. And every Character should as well. They are cheap, incredible for what they do. A shoota boy with a rokkit is about the price of a marine with a bolter. Shure they hit less often, but they
a) hit heavy (S5 with the BS, S8 AP3 with the rokkits) when they do
b) have loads of cheap ablative wounds.
and
c) are assault weapons. Move and fire is a huge advantage over every army that has to remain stationary for their heavier weapons.
Did I forget Flash Gits? Very cheap Elites and they can get the more Dakka upgrade for peanuts, that will make their shootas assault 2 as well (if you want high strenght you can make them S5 as well, though I find the cost prohibitive).
S4 is why Ork shooting is good. It may not be as effective as sluggers and choppas in CC (although against non-MEQs you only sacrifice one attack per Ork, for 1 more Boy per unit size 8, so 16 slugga boys with 64 Attacks charging are 18 shoota boys with 54 Attacks, who could shoot at the enemy for one or two rounds. And if 8 of the boys donīt make it to the enemy, 32 attacks for the sluggas, 30 for the shootas).


and i would have squads of 30.

Reduces the number of special weaponery and Nobs you can get. Iīs a balance thing, I usually go with about 20 boys per unit. Also remember that the number of units you have is the number of difficult terrain tests you make (so if youīre unlucky with unit A, which isnīt ich charge range of your chosen target, thereīs still unit B ready to do that job).


Personaly i find that komandoz are good because they are good moving through cover and they are only +1 pt which isnt realy much.

I like them, too. The small max size is a negative point, but their sheer ability to distract the enemy is worth every single point. I tend to run one with two rokkits (one on the nob) + shootas, to scare enemy tanks, and another one with choppas and tankbuster charges.


For me i like to use a few war trukks to get to the enemy fast . Storm boyz do get to the enemy very fast however they do cost alot for a fast ork!

P.S guns are a no go for me in a ork army

I hope I could make you overthink that. Dey donīt call it Dakka Dakka fer no reason.

Daemon king Mad Dog
05-01-2007, 21:51
I think the face and head beatings was their original problem :D

The only ork that gave me a challenge thus far is the feral orks with 120 S5 mad boys and 3 massive squigoths and even then. They are too slow.

I havent lost to them yet.

I think theres 3 things:
1: He's rubbish as he fields a weird list including 3 squigoths instead of egttign soem lobbaz in there.
2: He doesn't shout WAAAAAGH! before each dice roll which is traditional.
3:Your just good :P

Gensuke626
05-01-2007, 22:04
Did I forget Flash Gits? Very cheap Elites and they can get the more Dakka upgrade for peanuts, that will make their shootas assault 2 as well (if you want high strenght you can make them S5 as well, though I find the cost prohibitive).


Just to nitpick, More dakka is the more Expensive flashgit upgrade at...4 points? So you're looking at 13 point Orks i believe. Great if you like to shoot then charge (Who doesn't) but for certain things...may I suggest Blasta?

Also Flashgits can only get 1 upgrade for the whole unit. I'm not sure if you know this or not, but your post implies that I could take Dakka & Shootier on my gits.

Lastly, remember that gits can mount 4 special gunz per mob...then you can give one to the nob.

susu.exp
05-01-2007, 22:17
Just to nitpick, More dakka is the more Expensive flashgit upgrade at...4 points? So you're looking at 13 point Orks i believe. Great if you like to shoot then charge (Who doesn't) but for certain things...may I suggest Blasta?

Above all, I like to keep mobile. And 2 shots at effectively 30" are not bad at all. It is the most expensive one, but I always felt it pays, making each git twice as effective at shooting.


Also Flashgits can only get 1 upgrade for the whole unit. I'm not sure if you know this or not, but your post implies that I could take Dakka & Shootier on my gits.

Iīm a bit out of practice with my Boys and tried to remember why I only ever used more dakka. I rememberd MD was my obvious choice and that for a while I considered Shootier. I jumbled that somehow (not having the Codex around to help my memory along doesnīt help).


Lastly, remember that gits can mount 4 special gunz per mob...then you can give one to the nob.

Yes, but in this case the wording isnīt that clear, do I pay for the upgrade on models with no use for them or not? So I usually refrained from giving them the special gunz. I think I gave Shootier to their Nob for a while as well.

Gensuke626
05-01-2007, 23:16
Yes, but in this case the wording isnīt that clear, do I pay for the upgrade on models with no use for them or not? So I usually refrained from giving them the special gunz. I think I gave Shootier to their Nob for a while as well.

This is my logic...and I don't have my codex on hand so I can't tell you for sure BUT.

Kustom Jobs ONLY Apply to Shootas and Sluggas.
I believe Big Shootas/Rokkit Launchas/Burnas replace a model's standard kit.
Therefore a model with a Big Shoota is Ineligable to buy and kustom job and thus you do not need to spend points on it.
However if the codex is worded "The Entire Mob may be given a Kustom Job at x Pts per model." then this implies that the kustom job is a squad upgrade like Frag Grenades as opposed to a single miniature upgrade like special and heavy weapons.

jefritrout
05-01-2007, 23:22
Susu,

How very right you are. Orks can really outshoot any army in the game. I've taken a point to prove that in our local GW store on 40K night. Over a 2 month period with over 25 big shootas in 1000 points, I've eliminated every force that's come out. Deathwing, Nids, Tau, BA, Spikeez, shooting marines. It's been quite a revelation for everyone involved. Predators are a problems, but some big shootas into the side can handle it and with enough orks, they can't they're flanks completely. Every now agrees that Orks can be the shootiest army there is.

As to mob size I think 20 is about right, sometimes I might upon a rare occasion run 24, but that is the max.

jefritrout
05-01-2007, 23:25
As to flashgitz, you must pay for the upgrade to all members of the mob if they buy an upgrade. They use the same rational as is used that heavy weapons cost more in a devastators squad than a tactical one. I believe that it is in the FAQ.

Gensuke626
05-01-2007, 23:35
As to flashgitz, you must pay for the upgrade to all members of the mob if they buy an upgrade. They use the same rational as is used that heavy weapons cost more in a devastators squad than a tactical one. I believe that it is in the FAQ.

Yeah, I looked up the FAQ, but without the codex I'm not sure...since I think the intent of that ruling is to prevent people from taking a mixed squad of blastas and shootiers.

and I don't think it's the same rational for heavy weps in a Dev/tac squad, so much as it is Grenade rational. It's not an upgrade to the individual, but to the whole squad (Sort of like in Guard, if you buy sharp shooters for a squad of mixed BS 3 and 4, only the BS3 folks benefit, but you still needed to pay for the BS4 folk.)

susu.exp
05-01-2007, 23:56
As to flashgitz, you must pay for the upgrade to all members of the mob if they buy an upgrade. They use the same rational as is used that heavy weapons cost more in a devastators squad than a tactical one. I believe that it is in the FAQ.

The original wording is something like "flash gits may upgrade their shootas with kustom jobs at a cost of +x pts per model". Itīs not clearly worded on the question of whether thatīs per model with a shoota or per model in the mob. The FAQ only states that "When Flash Gits upgrade their shootas to kustom jobs all must take the same type of kustom job", which doesnīt really clarify this particular issue, just prevents some sneaky git to give half the mob Blasta and half the mob shootier.
Taking no special gunz in a Kustom Job Flash Git Mob seemed the safest. No upgrades and 5 special gunz in a battlewagon with bolt ons for some of the others in a Bad Moon list is a nice option as well.

I would say the Orks can outshoot almost every army. I think the IG can still beat the greenskins in that department, but then again even the shootiest Ork list will eat them alive in CC (Unless the Guard player went for a CC guard army, with doctrines and a bunch of Ogryns, but then the outshooting wonīt work).

skar kid
06-01-2007, 10:54
susu.exp

thanks for the tips on ork shooting you have managed to make me re think shooting orks! I have decided to definatly include 2 squads of 10 shoota boys with 3 rokkits per sqaudbecause as you said if i come up against tranids i might not do so well in cc however im not quite sure about the flash gits as they do seem quite expensive

Do you have any info about wether or not i should include Big gunz battery's in my army ? and are they very effective or does the bs mess them up a bit?

And what wouid you say is better to include in my army (1000pts) killer kan's or dreadnoughts??

IJW
06-01-2007, 11:00
The original wording is something like "flash gits may upgrade their shootas with kustom jobs at a cost of +x pts per model".
"The entire mob may be given the same kustom job for their shootas chosen from the Wargear section."

gitburna
06-01-2007, 11:40
thanks for the tips on ork shooting you have managed to make me re think shooting orks! I have decided to definatly include 2 squads of 10 shoota boys with 3 rokkits per sqaudbecause as you said if i come up against tranids i might not do so well in cc however im not quite sure about the flash gits as they do seem quite expensive

Do you have any info about wether or not i should include Big gunz battery's in my army ? and are they very effective or does the bs mess them up a bit?

And what wouid you say is better to include in my army (1000pts) killer kan's or dreadnoughts??

woah woah woah, if your taking shootaboyz give them big shootas and use more than 10. Give your slugga boyz the rokkits, they usually head off towards the enemy anyway. you need lots of dakka for ork shooting to work properly, adding a couple of minimum sized units like that isnt particulalrly effective. With orks its a case of "in for a penny, in for a pound"

As for big guns i originally wanted to use kannonz when the codex was released, the short range of the zzap guns makes them a no-no for me. But instead i found that i could make some better looking lobbas. Ive used them on and off for about 8 years now, they are not a bad little choice for around a hundred points. Consider them instead of a minimum sized shoota boy squad if points are short.
Kannonz are something ive been looking at using again, of late ive been wondering how to deal with stuff like skimmer heavy tau or such and they still give you the 3 blast markers for fragging infantry, and i think they have a few key advantages over stuff like a battlewagon or a big 200 point shootaboyz mob...

Delicious Soy
06-01-2007, 11:59
Personally I fail to see why the changes suggested in the first post need to be implemented, I think the defeat you sufferred is a result more of poor army selection against an Eldar opponent. The trick in my experience is to nullify the speed element of eldar, something achieved relatively easy by Trukks and stormboys, that alone can prevent the careful shot selection needed to sort an ork horde before it reaches eldar lines, otherwise the eldar player winds up frantically trying to keep the firebase of his army out of assault range by hurling farseers with warlocks and aspect warriors at the foe. I'd say ditch the kroot and russ at least in exchange for at least two fast units and some more infantry. That and make sure the nobs carry bosspoles or iron gobs or whatever it is that gives +1LD. Against Eldar its priceless.

skar kid
06-01-2007, 13:13
Gitburna

yeah i agrea i was going to put them with my shoota boyz because i thought they were heaver but they are assult3 does this mean that they get 3 shouts afer moving or not ( i havent been gameing very long) lol.

susu.exp
06-01-2007, 14:05
Yes it does. Generally you want big shootas with your shoota boys because they enhance the units ability against infantry, which the shoota armed boys are good at as well. Rokkits work better in Slugga Mobs, because you don´t have to choose between infantry or tanks, since the sluggas will be out of range most of the time anyway. But the best place for rokkits is a tankbusta mob, where they effectively get S9.
10 model strong mobs are generally not that good, everybody has their own sweet spot for mob sizes, but I think most fall into the 15-25 range.
On Big Gunz. I like to use one Zzap gun, because of the scare factor. The short range makes it less effective, but never underestimate the psychological effect of a weapon that ignores your BS2 (auto hit) and has the potential to put out S12 shots. Interestingly players with expensive toys like Land Raiders or monoliths tend to expect you to roll a double 6 for streght, never a double 1... So it denies them some area of the battlefield and if you can set it up after some big chunk of killiness is placed, and you can see, where it would probably go, you can place your Zzap gun so that your oponent would take a big risk doing so. If 30 points can keep that Crusader with the Assault terminators lurking in its own deployment zone, that 30 points well spend. On the other hand the units this works best against tend not to show up in 1000 point games that much. I don´t use kannons or lobbas, but others may have good uses for them.
For dreads versus cans, I can only see one point where the dreadnought is at a real advantage: It can be armed with custom blastas, with less of the self-destructive potential these weapons have when you give them to characters. With respects to survivabilty the Kans win and a couple of them will be able to deal with pretty much anything in close combat. I´ve mostly used a dreadnought for the sheer fun of saying: OK, then let´s see if the other custom blasta hits the Terminators...

bloodlust
06-01-2007, 17:04
Delicious Soy, in retrospect, I agree with you about the list changing; but I still feel as though Boyz need higher Ld in order to stay on the table edge if the mission states they need to be deployed there.

Starchild
06-01-2007, 17:45
Delicious Soy, in retrospect, I agree with you about the list changing; but I still feel as though Boyz need higher Ld in order to stay on the table edge if the mission states they need to be deployed there.That's the whole point of taking bigger mobz. Mob checks will keep boyz on the table for a long time, even if they have average leadership. I've seen mobz reduced to under 10 boyz pass mob checks; it effectively gives two chances to pass a break test, and it's impossible to fail a mob test if the mob numbers 13 or more, IIRC.

susu: Agreed about the big shootas, they can be really scary when used en masse.

Delicious Soy: In my experience warbikes are highly effective against Eldar. The ability to turboboost is great for taking objectives, and the twin-linked big shootas can easily take out whole squads of Aspect Warriors or Vypers and Warwalkers.

***

Orks work really well with a fast forward element to tie up key units while the rest of the army marches in. A battle wagon or fortress backed up by a couple of boyz mobz in wartrukks, maybe with help from infiltrating Kommandoz, can drive up a flank to avoid incoming fire. Then, while the opponent is busy dealing with the fast units, the Orks on foot can get in range without being shot up as much.

susu.exp
06-01-2007, 18:12
Delicious Soy, in retrospect, I agree with you about the list changing; but I still feel as though Boyz need higher Ld in order to stay on the table edge if the mission states they need to be deployed there.

The Eldra army you list, should kill 12 boys in a turn on average (EV), one in 10 games this goes to 15. 19, once in a 100.
3 shoota boys and 9 slugga boys killed leave you with 2 Ld tests at 7 and MSTs at 7 and 9 respectively. Thatīs a 1.2% probability to see both running.
Looking at the complete situation with worst case for the Orks in terms of Elader hit spread (I basically assumed that the complete Eldar army shoots at those two units and the Eldar player could divide his kills among them so that the Orks are most likely to run), I get a total probability of about 2.2%. So, thatīs not likely to happen all that often. If you re-played the scenario with the same armies itīd probably not happen again.

Gensuke626
06-01-2007, 19:57
I like to use one Zzap gun, because of the scare factor. The short range makes it less effective, but never underestimate the psychological effect of a weapon that ignores your BS2 (auto hit) and has the potential to put out S12 shots.

No...you can't. If you roll an 11 or 12 with a Zzap gun it overheats (And effectively misses) and possibly kills a grot. A S2-10 (Average S7) + 2d6 pen is scary to vehicles though...I once tried to shoot at a lith...I was out of Range and my opponent told me to roll tos ee what the S would have been...Pair of 5s and suddenly he was very glad that I was an inch short...

Norminator
06-01-2007, 23:27
Another thing no one seems to have mentioned in regards to having a purely assault army is the amount of time your units are going to spend doing nothing. Whilst they are charging across the board (no doubt being pummeled as they go), what are they going to do? Give them a few big shootas and they can fire whilst they move, and hopefully take down a few enemy and prevent the first two/three turns being wasted.

Ravenous
07-01-2007, 13:09
I think theres 3 things:
1: He's rubbish as he fields a weird list including 3 squigoths instead of egttign soem lobbaz in there.
2: He doesn't shout WAAAAAGH! before each dice roll which is traditional.
3:Your just good :P

I do try :D


Really? I used to reckon one-to-one versus marines would leave everybody dead, which was always fine by me, as I outnumbered him two-to-one.

Well I wont go into mathhammer but I will use the rough version with the averages. Ok 10 orks (I'll leave the nob out of this) charge 10 marines (hopefully not in cover) the orks will hit 20 times out of 40 and would only 1/3 of that so we'll go with 7 marines then make 4 saves. Then strike back and will kill 2 or 3 of them its about the same. However now you go into the next round. Marines go first and kill another 3. The orks now only have 12 attacks hit 6 times and wounding twice. they kill a marine. and now they lose combat are outnumbered and under half. This happened more often then not.

Basically the point is that if you dont crump him on the charge your done for. Thats why Im thinking adding furious charge to orks would be an excellent idea.

The Black Knight
07-01-2007, 18:14
[QUOTE=Irondog;1194251]
I feel S5 would be a bit much for a boost. Griffin is correct, Orks aren't meant to be on par with marines when it comes to strength. QUOTE]


I see your point here. Orks should not be as strong as marines. But they should be stronger than a Tau Fire warrior

bratbag
07-01-2007, 18:58
I do try :D



Well I wont go into mathhammer but I will use the rough version with the averages. Ok 10 orks (I'll leave the nob out of this) charge 10 marines (hopefully not in cover) the orks will hit 20 times out of 40 and would only 1/3 of that so we'll go with 7 marines then make 4 saves. Then strike back and will kill 2 or 3 of them its about the same. However now you go into the next round. Marines go first and kill another 3. The orks now only have 12 attacks hit 6 times and wounding twice. they kill a marine. and now they lose combat are outnumbered and under half. This happened more often then not.

Basically the point is that if you dont crump him on the charge your done for. Thats why Im thinking adding furious charge to orks would be an excellent idea.

You need to factor in that most mounted ork squads will have a Nob with power klaw, which will normally account for around 2 marines per combat phase (Slightly over 2 on the charge and slightly under 2 in any other phase)

A 157 pt mounted 10 ork mob charging a 150 pt 10 man marine squad will kill around 4 on the charge and will loose 2 or 3 in return.

Next turn the orks take between 1 and 2 casualties before striking back and killing another 2 with their nob and 1 from da boys.

This leaves a Nob and 4 boys versus 3 marines....it gets worse for the marines after this ;)

Of course in reality the marine squad may well have a vet sarge and special/heavy weapons. A vet sarge with powerfist will swing things to 'almost' equal (the orky version still gets that extra attack), but by now the marine squad will be costing upwards of 200 pts and will still likely loose (though there will probably only be the ork nob left out of the orks at the end).

Experienced ork players know what slugger mobs and truckboyz mobs really are- PK Nob delivery systems ;)