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Kiro
05-01-2007, 14:33
I made this thread while Portent was in it's death throes so it never received any attention, I had other things to deal with in the interim but now I've decided to throw this old bone back up here.
Okay:
Weren't one of the alien races mentioned in the =I= rulebook later expanded on to be chaos worshipping? I really for the life of me cannot remember where I read this, but like chronic diarhhea it's returned to bug the hell out of me, so somebody please help me out!
Failing that, what do you think about the idea of a chaos-worshipping alien race? I think the introduction of such a race to the game would be somewhat 'premature' in that we don't have enough races being 'alien-ey'. If we had more races then maybe it would be cool. I mean the way it's set up, the established races already have their own way of 'bypassing' the whole chaos theme.
The Tau have miniscule warp presence, and no psykers.
The Eldar and DE, although they were almost wiped out by Slaanesh don't seem to bear that much of a grudge against It's followers, and seem to prefer using the Imperium as a whipping boy instead
Orks....just don't get it.
Tyranids...more so than the Orks are too, erm, uncivilized
Necrons...are older than Chaos and a little too a) soulless and b) mysterious to get involved with Chaos...aside from the brief splat on the Great Work.

Come to think about it I really like the idea of a chaos-worshipping race, it would make the fluff themes more coherent. It's like there are basically two themes/story arcs = Imperium vs. aliens or Imperium vs. Chaos. A Chaos worshipping race would more evoke an everyone vs everyone atmosphere. Hmm, I'm getting a little carried away here...
Anyway, answer the question and get discussing!!!

Ikkaan
05-01-2007, 14:49
The Saruthi come to my mind. They have completely submitted to chaos and are changed beyond imagination.

Darkseer
05-01-2007, 15:12
They're the ones in the Eissenhorn Trilogy right?

inq.serge
05-01-2007, 15:17
You are maybe thinking of Hrud (AKA space Skaven), they are rumoured to worship the chaos god kweethul.

It's highly (Extreamly highly) posible that there are aliens worshipping chaos.

MaxORK
05-01-2007, 16:17
Apart from speculation about which race you are talking about the actual theme of it is brilliant!

Really good idea well done.

monkey child
05-01-2007, 16:23
They're the ones in the Eissenhorn Trilogy right?

Yeah the saruthi are in Eisenhorn, the little 5 legged eyeless stilt walking, un symetrical scamps that they are. I personally think there needs to be more creatures who have become completly warped by chaos. rather than just worshipping it they actually are chaos

Inquisitor S.
05-01-2007, 16:51
One could also assume that Loxatl and the like worship Chaos if they fight for them.

Khaine's Messenger
05-01-2007, 17:31
I mean the way it's set up, the established races already have their own way of 'bypassing' the whole chaos theme.

Not really. Every race just has their own concept of what Chaos is and are thought to be affected to lesser degrees than Mankind mostly because the background really doesn't adequately describe their views on the subject (the Tau were even ignorant about the dwellers in/dangers of the warp until MedV, apparently). No one is immune to the touch of Chaos, no matter how esoteric that "touch" may be...and we're not talking Marks or mutations here, just your baseline manipulativeness.


Come to think about it I really like the idea of a chaos-worshipping race, it would make the fluff themes more coherent.

One imagines that there are a fair number of them (of which the Saruthi are a mere example), but that the distinction of being Chaos-worshippers is moot in the face of their obvious xenos forms which already mark them for extermination. Which is unfortunate, since it's that sort of attitude that prevents the development of depth in the concept. It'd be really neat to see at least one of the enigmatic "Chaos Eldar," though. :evilgrin:

number 6
05-01-2007, 18:56
Well in rouge trader days, there wasStormboyz of Khorne and Chaos Renegade Ork Warbands. Ork worshipers of Chaos. Its in the fluff!!!

Chainsworded Codpiece
05-01-2007, 21:31
Well in rouge trader days, there wasStormboyz of Khorne and Chaos Renegade Ork Warbands. Ork worshipers of Chaos. Its in the fluff!!!

Yes, but it was rare, rare, rare. The Chaotic memes, aside from Khorne's, don't transmit well from Ork to Ork; Orks don't "proselytize" in the same way that other races do, so no "hidden cults" really happen. So Chaos can't spread manipulatively through Ork "kultur".

Even Khorne's ideas/impulses don't work as well as one would want. In 40K, much of the Ork mindset is gleeful and childish id, beating and blasting and tearing things apart is primary, but the blood shed is almost wierdly incidental. Orks are just as pleased reducing a building to atoms as they are tearing a Guardsman apart.

Khornates NEED to reduce and destroy flesh. They are the urge to annhiliate flesh, given flesh. They MUST do it in a direct way, with no play or subtlety. That's part of the Khorne-meme. In Human(oids), this directness gets expressed in regimentation and order, and in bloodthirsty rituals that ramp up the need to slaughter even while fulfilling it.

Orks, when they are part of that urge, are channeling Gork/Mork. And they do it in much more haphazrd, playful fashion. Furthermore, the Stormboyz mentality was (in RT days) an ABERRATION that only the "Yoofs" were strongly subject to. Stormboyz who fell to Khorne were viewed as mentally unbalanced, because of the orderly, regimented, focused way their thoughts and actions became (focused, that is, by Ork standards).

Ork Khaotik warbands were Freebooterz by virtue of being "un-Orky", and it was implied that only Warbosses of "low cunning" (i.e., dirtbags) would employ them for any length of time. They were utterly outcast, usually even from other warbands. How does this matter? Because they couldn't even attract other followers under their banner as easily as many other Chaotics!

Their skills at convincing others to join them are mostly limited to Orkish negotiation tactics. Which don't work as well with other beings (even insane Chaotics, one might imagine), and won't work on most Orks, who find the speaker disturbingly removed from the Gork/Mork commonality.

So Ork Khaotik warbands often don't grow. They exist, but are a dead end.

Furthermore, the innate "psychic muscle" that Orks possess makes Daemonic infiltration another dead end. the Daemon ends up being an inadvertent prisoner of its' (usually Madboy or Wierdboy) vessel. Their manifestation is present, but...incomplete, and uncomfortable for both entities.

Kiro
06-01-2007, 04:46
Not really. Every race just has their own concept of what Chaos is and are thought to be affected to lesser degrees than Mankind mostly because the background really doesn't adequately describe their views on the subject (the Tau were even ignorant about the dwellers in/dangers of the warp until MedV, apparently). No one is immune to the touch of Chaos, no matter how esoteric that "touch" may be...and we're not talking Marks or mutations here, just your baseline manipulativeness

True enough, but when I say 'bypass' I should have clarified; I meant they thematically sidestep the conflict-with-chaos story arc i.e. there's nothing really there.

Sgt Biffo
06-01-2007, 05:20
Khornate stormboys disappeared with the advent of 2nd ed so i'd say that concept is long dead but not forgotten.

Chaos renegade army (WD 107) lists included ork units, but it does point out that "Although few Orks serve chaos directly, their love of violence and plunder is often harnessed by Chaos Renegades."

I'm fairly certain that this pre-dates the 'Ere We Go books too.

Has anyone pointed out that Genestealer Cults used to worship chaos too?


You are maybe thinking of Hrud (AKA space Skaven), they are rumoured to worship the chaos god kweethul.

Now there's a blast from the past. Kweethul was indeed a chaos daemon price that was an example in the original LotD. The basic template was a skaven worshiping Nurgle. That would indeed make the Hrud space skaven.

Kiro
06-01-2007, 05:47
And no, I wasn't referring to the Saruthi or the Eisenhorn books, I meant the =I= big black rulebook, it was a race like the Scythians, or the Xenarch.

Khaine's Messenger
06-01-2007, 07:24
True enough, but when I say 'bypass' I should have clarified; I meant they thematically sidestep the conflict-with-chaos story arc i.e. there's nothing really there.

How do you mean?

Kiro
06-01-2007, 08:05
Hmm, I don't really know how I can elaborate any more on 'thematically' but I'll give it my best shot...

Basically there are, IMHO, two fundamental story-arcs within 40k:
Man vs. the alien, or the threat without
&
Man vs. Chaos, or the threat within

However, the overall theme of the game is sublime war, between everyone, there are no friends here. Now, I think the introduction of a Chaos worshipping race would shorten the gap between arcs and produce a more suitable:

everyone vs. everyone

Errr, does that help...at all?

Sgt Biffo
06-01-2007, 10:25
everyone vs. everyone

Thats why: "In the grim darkness of the future there is only war."

Acolyte of Bli'l'ab
06-01-2007, 10:29
a mini range of models based around this would be great, but id prefer some more pure alien races first of all.

Something similar to the Drakh in babylon5/Crusade could work though...

Kiro
07-01-2007, 06:14
a mini range of models based around this would be great, but id prefer some more pure alien races first of all

Well, yeah, I agree. I like the idea of a Chaos worshipping race, but I think they should bring in other races first.

Sarge
07-01-2007, 07:24
What would be even better, is if this race worshipped Chaos as a power of nature, much more like the chaos worshiping tribes of Warhammer, rather than as evil gods or demons, like most chaos worshipers do in 40k.

Would give the game a nicely added spice to see the 4 major chaos gods viewed in another light. Since every race to date sees it as evil, and either fights against it, or worships it.

Kiro
07-01-2007, 07:56
I'm not getting you here :confused:
Chaos is evil.
Are you trying to say that the traitor legions and whatnot view their Gods as evil? I don't think they do...

MrBigMr
07-01-2007, 08:01
I have a plan for a Slaanesh worshiping Tau raiding party (combat patrol). The idea is that they wouldn't be corrupted, but just a mix of misfits who dig the philosophy of Slaanesh (not totaly understanding who or what Slaanesh is).

lord_blackfang
07-01-2007, 16:25
You are maybe thinking of Hrud (AKA space Skaven), they are rumoured to worship the chaos god kweethul.


Rumoured where? The only reasonably detailed mention of Hrud is in Xenology, and according to it they had their own Old One god until very recently.

Sarge
07-01-2007, 17:59
Obviuosly you've never heard of the major differences Warhammer and Warhammer 40k, so I am hard pressed to make you understand that Chaos in Warhammer was seen in two different lights, unlike it is in 40k.

It was seen as evil, typically in the evil that it's worshippers commited in their raids and offenses, and it was seen as a force of nature, by the more peaceful northern tribesmen. By peaceful, I mean they had a stable society centered around the worship of chaos as a power of nature, rather than as an evil force.

Does that help? It doesn't dissolve how the Imperium would see them, or what the xenos would do to Imperial citizens, it just changes the interaction between Chaos and this hypothetical Xenos, as well as offering the xenos a chance at creating a stable society around the worship of chaos, rather than the chaotic mass that is how the forces of chaos are viewd to date.

Does that help?

@MrBigMr: Not likely going to happen MrBigMr, given Tau are far more uniform in their devotion to the Ethereals, than any race is to their gods. You will be hard pressed to find any rebellious band within the ever expanding Tau Empire. Now if they had left the Empire, or were lost in the warp on their way to explore, conquer, and colonize, than there is a slight chance they could become rebels as you discribe them. But given their tiny warp signature, and strong pyschic defenses, any demon trying to curropt them by any other means besides persuassion, would be hard pressed indeed. But given their theores and they're indoctrination, it would be generations before the old beleifs were lost.

Ontop of which, you'd have to explain their casteless society, as Slaanesh's teachings don't work well when there is minimal interaction between castes, especially of a sexual nature. So chances are, if they survived for generations within human space or within the warp without being discovered, all without an Ethereal presence. Happened upon slightly less insane worshippers of Slaanesh, who did not attack them immediately, and in turn began to share their less insane beleifs with the xenos. It would still take generations of contact before any beleifs would be shared. In which case, all caste organization would dissolve; the Tau would than breed freely among the ex-castes, ultimately creating a 6th hypothetical caste, sharing the traits of each ex-caste. This 6th "caste" would most likely look like their ancestors did before the split, habitated different enviroments and adapted to those enviroments.

Now, if all this happened in more or less the way I explained it, the Tau would most likely become pirates, individualists, and hedonists, though not to the extremes human worshippers exhibit. You might even find several less insane followers of Slaanesh within their number, having accepted them into the crew, so there could be gue'la among your Tau, though given the Gue'la rules are no longer tourney legal, this ofcourse would only be present in freindly games.

So if all the necassary circumstances come together, it's either an act of Tzetchen (sp?), or some greater force, that these Tau become "rebels".

MrBigMr
07-01-2007, 19:31
@MrBigMr: Not likely going to happen MrBigMr, given Tau are far more uniform in their devotion to the Ethereals, than any race is to their gods. You will be hard pressed to find any rebellious band within the ever expanding Tau Empire.
Farsight.


Now if they had left the Empire, or were lost in the warp on their way to explore, conquer, and colonize, tha... blaa blaa blaa
As I stated, they haven't been corrupted. They are doing it willingly, just for kicks. It's more of a spin on the japanese underground. On top the society is clean and organized, but even they have all sorts of crazy stuff going on over there.
So basicly the members of the force would be people who don't feel to fit in into the society. Slaanesh is the philosophical way out, they don't know much about her. They don't even think it's real, but the ideas are good. Maybe they found some info on the god on some world while doing battle there. Some chaos manuscripts or something.
As for class mix, They're all female, so there won't be any breeding on my watch. Just hot blue-on-blue lezzie action.


Now, if all this happened in more or less the way I explained it, the Tau would most likely become pirates, individualists, and hedonists, though not to the extremes human worshippers exhibit. You might even find several less insane followers of Slaanesh within their number, having accepted them into the crew, so there could be gue'la among your Tau, though given the Gue'la rules are no longer tourney legal, this ofcourse would only be present in freindly games.
I was thinking about humans into the force, but I don't know. It would give little more the impression that the humans are the ones to cause the corruption. I'd rather keep it a fully Tau force.
Besides, It's just combat patrol, nothing more, so I won't be taking it into tournaments. Only tournament army I('m gonna) have, is a Terran IG regiment. The rest are just projects.


So if all the necassary circumstances come together, it's either an act of Tzetchen (sp?), or some greater force, that these Tau become "rebels".
Rebels. Stick it to the Man. Viva la sexual revolution.

Sarge
07-01-2007, 20:31
Farsight is not a chaos worshipper, nor has he run across any chaos worshippers to date. So he's not a very good example of a Tau chaos rebel.

Yeah... kinder, let me tell you this, there are no single sex forces in the Tau Empire, they all are mixed and match to ensure a successful coloization. It just goes to show how oriented toward coloization the Tau Empire is. Now if you want to imagine Tau les action, nothing says they can't do it in the presence of male Tau; given the teachings of Slaanesh, I'm sure this would be encouraged. To be truthful, the Tau are much more prolific than humanity is, and are Xenos, so there is no proof to say that they would even engage in such actions, let alone, understand it's purpose if they saw such activities.

However, it's much more beleiveable to say it's a mixed force, that happens to condone or encourage experimentation. Trust me kinder, I've been with the Tau for much longer than any other army I've played to date. I know what I'm talking about.

Khaine's Messenger
07-01-2007, 20:50
kinder, let me tell you this, there are no single sex forces in the Tau Empire, they all are mixed and match to ensure a successful coloization.

Indeed. Although the temptation could be argued to be there, it's not as if the Tau allow themselves to fully accept the more vulgar aspects of Slaanesh's lure since their society is heavily geared towards colonization (the "mating lottery" suggested in Fire Warrior being an interesting case in point). Also, as stated by O'Tsua'm's Book of War when discussing contact with a Slaaneshi raiding band,

Slaanesh [was] a being who is the antithesis of all the Tau believe in. It appears that his servants are actively encouraged to pursue hedonistic pursuits and that the concept of a Greater Good is abhorrent to them. Such a creature will never submit to the Tau empire and must be destroyed lest his subversive dogma be allowed to spread.
and

Now, as any student of mine from Kais-shi will tell you, I am a Tau little given to flights of fancy or romantic notions of beauty, but as I faced this being in shocking pinks and blues, I was very nearly entranced by the colours and heady musks that seemed somehow to permeate my battlesuit. I quickly threw off such notions and dispatched the villain with a shot from my fusion blaster.

Sarge
07-01-2007, 20:54
Most definately it's there, but like Sparta (not a perfect example but you get the idea), the Tau pretty much control their sexual desires until they are given a mate, typically via lottery.

MrBigMr
07-01-2007, 21:42
Farsight is not a chaos worshipper, nor has he run across any chaos worshippers to date. So he's not a very good example of a Tau chaos rebel.
I didn't mean chaos rebel, just rebel. For what ever the reason, he's rebelling against the empire. And since Inquisitors can run off with Orks (I've read an actual fluff on it), anything is possible. What's so impossible about a small group of Tau starting their own little "cult"? Screw the Man. Just because "society" doesn't allow it, doesn't mean it can't happen. You're not suppose to kill people, but so far it hasn't stopped people from doing it.
Imagine them as some emo goth satan worshiping bastards. They don't realy get any special power or longevity from the dark prince, but they still get kicks from it. And I don't see Slaanesh minding the extra carnage and hedonism in his/her name.


Yeah... kinder, let me tell you this, there are no single sex forces in the Tau Empire, they all are mixed and match to ensure a successful coloization.
My army, my rules. No fat chicks, no dudes.


Trust me kinder, I've been with the Tau for much longer than any other army I've played to date. I know what I'm talking about.
Well, I've been a perv all my life and I know what I like.


Most definately it's there, but like Sparta (not a perfect example but you get the idea), the Tau pretty much control their sexual desires until they are given a mate, typically via lottery.
You can't stop the hanky panky. Unit A and Slot B are designed to go together. It's biology, not sociology. No amount of brainwashing can stop sex totaly. I can imagine two Fire Warriors enjoying a moment of love in some quiet corner behind the Hammerhead at the field.
As for inter-caste, they're banned, but it isn't impossible. Imagine it the early 20th century gay relationships of the Tau empire. It's forbidden and looked down upon by society, but you can't choose who you fall in love with.

Sarge
07-01-2007, 23:54
But they're not human, and you're trying to make them human, they are alien, and are designed to react in a way aliens do. Would you do the same with a Tyranid combat patrol? Hell no, because they don't reproduce that way, and there would be no point to such activity because they receive no pleasure from it. It's just like the Tau, they aren't as emotional or as sensual as other races are for a reason, they breed to reproduce, not for sexual enjoyment. Wheither it's biology or sociology, this unit is unlikely, and is only there to titilate yourself. Now, if you are finished, you can end this arguement, since this discussion has gone so totally off topic. I think we've indulged your idea enough, give someone else a chance.

MrBigMr
08-01-2007, 00:43
But they're not human, and you're trying to make them human, they are alien, and are designed to react in a way aliens do.
As I said, it's simple biology. It came before any social norms. You can't just turn it off like that. Lets not forget that few thousand years ago the Tau were savage warring people so they've had even less time to develope from animals into humanoids. It's is only because of the Ethereals that the Tau society is what it is. If the Tau were so goody good before that, then why did they almost wipe each other out?


Now, if you are finished, you can end this arguement, since this discussion has gone so totally off topic. I think we've indulged your idea enough, give someone else a chance.
Oh, you're no fun anymore.

Sarge
08-01-2007, 01:11
Like I said before, we've indulged you enough on the subject, and we should get the thread back on track. As for what you say, you can't compare humans and tau bilogically or socially, because unlike humanity, they have blue blood, and communisim works for them, works very well in fact, and that alone speaks volumes on the differences. So enough about this divergence, lets get back on track with the thread.

Acolyte of Bli'l'ab
08-01-2007, 01:36
Correct me if im wrong but arent the Loxatl a Chaos-worshipping race ? every time iv seen them mentioned its been to do with LaTD...

Sgt Biffo
08-01-2007, 07:45
I thought Loxatl are from Gaunts Ghosts and were mercinaries.

Merc's rarely hold the same political/religous values of their employer
(hence why their not partisans or allies). Usually its fiscial values that are shared by employer and said mercs.

Kiro
08-01-2007, 08:35
Obviuosly you've never heard of the major differences Warhammer and Warhammer 40k, so I am hard pressed to make you understand that Chaos in Warhammer was seen in two different lights, unlike it is in 40k.

I'm don't play fantasy anymore, not for a long time, but I still pick up the odd army book and I do have beasts and hordes of Chaos.


It was seen as evil, typically in the evil that it's worshippers commited in their raids and offenses, and it was seen as a force of nature, by the more peaceful northern tribesmen. By peaceful, I mean they had a stable society centered around the worship of chaos as a power of nature, rather than as an evil force

A) We run into some classic Plato here i.e. nobody wants to do evil. In this instance, Chaos worshippers aren't running around going 'we're evil, we do evil things' they're doing what they think is good....even if the rest of the fantasy world/40k universe thinks they're evil. I think what you mean to say on the Chaos worshipping tribes is that they are animistic. But we're kind of drifiting from the point here :)


Does that help? It doesn't dissolve how the Imperium would see them, or what the xenos would do to Imperial citizens, it just changes the interaction between Chaos and this hypothetical Xenos, as well as offering the xenos a chance at creating a stable society around the worship of chaos, rather than the chaotic mass that is how the forces of chaos are viewd to date

So....you're saying that there is an unchaotic chaos? Hmmmm...
:p

Sarge
08-01-2007, 12:51
Pretty much, it's pretty simple put, the worship of chaos as a force of nature in WH, compared to worship of chaos as a demonic force in WH40k.

Kiro
08-01-2007, 13:20
So...animistic aliens? Or would that be pantheistic?...
Either way isn't that 'leading' the aliens in a particular direction? I mean animism, and traditional pantheism is somewhat primitive.

Lockjaw
09-01-2007, 00:40
you've had nurgle orks, and in 2nd ed. you had khorne stormboys, so orks seem possible, at least for nurgle and khorne, slannesh and tzeentch don't seem to have much going for them to get the ork love

eldar, as much as people groan about the idea of chaos eldar, there are mention of croneworld eldar, and i could see a group of eldar throwing it in with tzeentch or khorne to fight slannesh, and khaine is very similar.

tau, maybe in extremely rare condidtions, one might show up, but they have very small warp presence, and are very difficult for chaos to corrupt, to the point that it wouldn't even bother. plus they don't really seem to hve a religion, they seem a more secular or athiestic society


kroot, they just have to eat a chaos marine and they go nuts with spontanius mutation and try killing everything around them, according to one short story printed , i think it was the old tau codex,not sure though.

vespids, who knows, their bugs, chaos might not have anything to use to corrupt them.

hrud, could be, could easlily not be

demiurge, like the hrud, we know hardly anything about either, who knows their main motivations.

Sarge
09-01-2007, 00:41
Look at japan, they still have a surviving Shinto religion, yet they make some of the greatest technology in the world. Religion has nothing to to with technology or developement, just look at the Eldar, they had a pantheon before it became the one bloody handed god, and mythology on how it happened, while maintaining some of the most advanced tech in the game.

Sgt Biffo
09-01-2007, 01:35
just look at the Eldar, they had a pantheon before it became the one bloody handed god

Animism is a vastly different kettle of fish compared to pantheonism.

Chaos as a daemonic force and its inherent evil in the 40k universe is by and large a product of seeing otherworldy creatures through modern Judan religous eyes. Baal would be a classic example of this in the real world as he has become a devil in the catholic mythology.

I think that following this train of thought show an inability to think outside the square.

Sure the Imperium would teach that Chaos is evil, but that doesn't mean that it is.

In the modern real world an "Axis of Evil" to one person is anothers freedom fighter against a corrupt, beligerant oppresser.

Kiro
09-01-2007, 03:02
Uh oh, the thread drift is carrying us into the realm of fish in kettles 0_o


Sure the Imperium would teach that Chaos is evil, but that doesn't mean that it is

This could spawn (and it has before) a thread that reaches 30+ pages. So I'll try and answer this as succinctly as possible: Chaos is evil. Specifically the Chaos Gods and their daemonic minions are evil. They were created from the death, destruction, and raging negative emotions from the War in Heaven. The stuff of Chaos while not inherently evil, probably will be for a long time, considering all the war going on in the 40k universe.


Look at japan, they still have a surviving Shinto religion, yet they make some of the greatest technology in the world. Religion has nothing to to with technology or developement, just look at the Eldar, they had a pantheon before it became the one bloody handed god, and mythology on how it happened, while maintaining some of the most advanced tech in the game

I wasn't talking about religion, I was talking about the type of religion. Animism is a lot simpler than say, Buddhism. One is a 'primitive' religion, the other 'advanced'. This isn't merely cultural bias, but comparative Theology.
As an interesting aside, even the Orks, who are crude and primitive when compared to the other races have a comparatively advanced religion. AFAIK, we have no examples of animistic religion in the 40k universe.

Sarge
09-01-2007, 03:08
A soul devourering all consuming corruption, is by methood evil in the eyes of all sane individuals. This is what has happened to the Immaterium after the "war in heaven", the war between the C'tan and Old Ones.

This isn't a discussion of the pawns, but the power behind them. If Chaos is to be seen in any other light, than it must be first seen as something that simply is, and is neither evil or good, but simply exists. That it does not curropt, or ruin, or devour souls, but rather gives seed to creation and encourages growth and evolution, and fosters the inevitable and neccasary end.

However, the problem in such a feat was how GW decided to portray those that worship chaos, and chaos itself. But as we all know, GW isn't against negating past fluff by simply writing around it.

By primative you mean? An example of what an animist religion is, might help.

MrBigMr
09-01-2007, 06:01
A soul devourering all consuming corruption, is by methood evil in the eyes of all sane individuals.
What's the difference between a sane and insane person realy?
They both think they're right and there's no way of convincing someone who thinks you're wrong.
Billions upon billions of humans worship and fight in the name of a single individual, because the goverment says they have to. The Emperor consumes souls all the time to sustain himself. What's the difference?


This isn't a discussion of the pawns, but the power behind them. If Chaos is to be seen in any other light, than it must be first seen as something that simply is, and is neither evil or good, but simply exists. That it does not curropt, or ruin, or devour souls, but rather gives seed to creation and encourages growth and evolution, and fosters the inevitable and neccasary end.
"If the Devil doesn't exist, but man has created him, he has created him in his own image and likeness"
In other words, Chaos isn't "evil", it's just the mirror of ourselves. If chaos is pain, corruption and all, it's because we are all that and pour out emotions into the Warp to fuel the powers that be.
Name one "good" faction in the universe? Imperium terminates more races and people in the galaxy than any other, all in the name of a faith. Tau treat pretty much every other race as inferior and either fights them or makes them their bitches. Eldar think only of themselves. Necrons hate life more than Chaos and to the C'Tan we're all just tasty McPeople. Tyranids are just evolved animals doing what they do best.

Kiro
09-01-2007, 06:11
This isn't a discussion of the pawns, but the power behind them. If Chaos is to be seen in any other light, than it must be first seen as something that simply is, and is neither evil or good, but simply exists

Yes, technically this is what Chaos is, or more rather should be. But it's so permeated with negative emotion that it will never be this way again for a long time.



By primative you mean? An example of what an animist religion is, might help.

Check out the belief systems of various 'primitive' peoples around the world, such as the tribes of the Amazon.

Warwolt the skaven
09-01-2007, 09:43
Simple "Belife" that there is a greater power, not "oooh, lets pray to this guy because he's a fancy pants and gives me tentacles and a eye in my ass" ^^

Sgt Biffo
09-01-2007, 14:07
By primative you mean? An example of what an animist religion is, might help.

Druidic lore in which animals are totemic and spirits are observed in natural places, ie rocks trees streams, is perhaps a more familiar example. House hold faerie such as brownies, gnomes and boogles would be another example.

I don't think that animism need be primative. Gremlins are an invention of the so called modern age and all Naval vessels are still female in gender to this day inspite of the english language evolving past gender specifics.

Bare in mind that reverence, while not open worship, is a type of religous observence.

Kiro
09-01-2007, 14:36
Animism, by it's nature, is primitive, in comparison to the more 'advanced' religions. Sure, it can be given a modern spin...but then there's only so much that can be done before it no longer resembles animism.

Sarge
09-01-2007, 22:08
Simple "Belife" that there is a greater power, not "oooh, lets pray to this guy because he's a fancy pants and gives me tentacles and a eye in my ass" ^^

Thanks, that was a lot more understandable than what Kiro said.

Anyway, it would be interesting to see this spin on a chaos worshipping race, if not a race that could "tame" or even create the warp. Would give Chaos an adversary that is other than human, especially if this race is highly psychic, and wishes to return Chaos to it's most natural state.

Kiro
10-01-2007, 07:52
Sorry Sarge, I just can't get used to 'getting out' of essay mode ;)
As an interesting aside, under who's jurisdiction would the influences of a chaos-worshipping race fall: Ordo Xenos, or Malleus?

Takitron
10-01-2007, 08:16
Sorry Sarge, I just can't get used to 'getting out' of essay mode ;)
As an interesting aside, under who's jurisdiction would the influences of a chaos-worshipping race fall: Ordo Xenos, or Malleus?

both, It would be the awesomest list ever. GK, IG, DW.

Sarge
10-01-2007, 12:07
And if they were powerful psykers, than they'd fall under every Imperial army list imaginable.

And no problem Kiro.