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Yade
05-01-2007, 16:23
From what I can see in the new 7th edition fantasy book it looks like bolt throwers are no longer immune from the multiple shots penalty. This came up at the GW store and no one knew the answer. Does anyone know if there was a rule in 6th edition that prevented elven bolt throwers from suffering the -1 for multiple shots. Because in the new book they suffer the same penalties as all missile weapons, both firing and targetting, it clearly states that in the bolt thrower description.

Falkman
05-01-2007, 16:31
The negative modifier for shooting more than one shot only applies to weapons with the multiple shots rule.
Reaper and Repeater bolt throwers don't have that rule, hence they don't get a negative modifier for shooting more than one bolt.

Yade
05-01-2007, 16:40
So what is the rule in their book that allows them to shoot multiple times? What is the rule called?

Falkman
05-01-2007, 16:43
It's no special rule, it simply says they may shoot a single bolt, or they may shoot multiple shots.

Yes, it says they can shoot multiple shots, but they don't actually have the special rule multiple shots x 6.

Yade
05-01-2007, 16:47
Right the game mechanic special rule "multiple shots x6" is not there. SO this is why they don't suffer a penalty? Is there any other weapon that fires more than 1 shot using a BS that does not suffer from the MSx rule?

Falkman
05-01-2007, 16:50
Yes, there are.
The Helblaster is one, the Leadbelcher cannons another.

Ans yes, that would be enough for them not suffering the penalty, as they don't have the rule that makes them suffering the penalty.

gukal
05-01-2007, 16:51
Right the game mechanic special rule "multiple shots x6" is not there. SO this is why they don't suffer a penalty? Is there any other weapon that fires more than 1 shot using a BS that does not suffer from the MSx rule?

Ogre Leadbelchers. However - as I recall - their immunity to the multiple shot penalty is explicit in their description.

- Gukal

Yade
05-01-2007, 16:53
Sounds good, thanks.

FatOlaf
05-01-2007, 16:59
It's no special rule, it simply says they may shoot a single bolt, or they may shoot multiple shots.

Yes, it says they can shoot multiple shots, but they don't actually have the special rule multiple shots x 6.

Two seperate things, the rule is they can fire multiple shots hence they are liable to to the -1 to hit. Are you seriously saying that it is as easy to fire six bolts as it is one. The rules state 'these weapons can either fire once without penalty, or as many times as indicated in their rules with an additional -1 to hit in their penalty'
The bolt thrower rules says it can fire multiple shots therefore it will be at -1 to hit.

To the original poster I would ask however where in the 7th BRB does it actually state this under the bolt thrower rules?

Comparing bolt RBT's to the hellblaster etc is also a bit much, they misfire for gods sake! And the comment about the Leadbelchers kinda sums it up, it deliberatly states why they are immune to multiple fire minus.

Avian
05-01-2007, 17:07
The bolt thrower rules says it can fire multiple shots therefore it will be at -1 to hit.
Nonsense, that would mean that they were all Strength 6 and penetrated ranks, which we know isn't true.

Repeater Bolt Throwers lets you fire one bolt normally or a volley of smaller bolts. This should not be confused with the Multiple Shots rule, which lets you fire one shot normally or several (identical) shots with a to-hit penalty.

Atrahasis
05-01-2007, 17:08
FatOlaf, you are wrong.

The RBT has a rule called "Volley" or some such. It does not have the rule "Multiple Shots".

I'm sure we can agree that the rules listed under "Multiple Shots" only apply to weapons that actually have that rule? :rolleyes:

Yade
05-01-2007, 17:14
Its under the section War machines / Bolt Throwers / Firing a Bolt Thrower / first paragraph.

To sum the rule there it says that bolt throwers fire using the firers BS and any normally applied nodifier as bows, crossbows and other missile weapons.

I would agree that if it does now say multiple shots x then it does not apply, unless the 6th edition rule book specifically precluded bolt throwers from these penalties. Because the 7th edition one does not preclude them from suh shooting penalties.

Falkman
05-01-2007, 17:20
6th edition bolt throwers also suffered the same penalties when shooting as normal missile troops.
That paragraph is there so people don't start shooting their 'throwers and ignoring terrain, range and stuff.

Atrahasis
05-01-2007, 17:30
I would agree that if it does now say multiple shots x then it does not apply, unless the 6th edition rule book specifically precluded bolt throwers from these penalties. Because the 7th edition one does not preclude them from suh shooting penalties.
How has the 6th rulebook got anything to do whatsoever with 7th?

You'd be well advised to completely expunge any thoughts of that obsolete edition from your reasoning.

intellectawe
05-01-2007, 19:05
6th rulebook


Under which the High Elf book was written for. Food for thought.

Ogres were amde with 7th in mind, so they have the clause that they may fire multiple shots without taking a penalty. HE Bolt Throwers have no such rule.

I don't side with either argument.

HE suck as is, let them have their multiple shots with no penalty. Does it really matter as you crush the under powered-overpriced HE army anyway?

I play with HE users, and they don't use the penalty.

Atrahasis
05-01-2007, 21:13
Under which the High Elf book was written for. Food for thought.And the 6th edition HE FAQ said that they don't suffer the penalty. If it is food for thought then it is from a greasy spoon.

It doesn't matter what the rules were in the past, it matters what the rules are now.

TheWarSmith
05-01-2007, 21:25
I don't have my book handy, but I believe flamers also can shoot 1d6 but do not suffer "multiple shot" sickness.

intellectawe
05-01-2007, 21:39
And the 6th edition HE FAQ said that they don't suffer the penalty.

Why then does this thread exist if the answer is already available? If the FAQ says the HE Bolts don't suffer from the negatives to hit, like you say it does as I haven't read it, then the bolts don't suffer any negatives.

Whats the debate? Are there other Bolt Throwers that fire multiple times? I think only the DE right? They would suffer the penalty unless their FAQ or Army book states otherwise.

Falkman
05-01-2007, 22:09
Atrahasis didn't start the thread, so don't go all aggressive on him.
HE bolt throwers can also shoot volleys, by the way.

ZomboCom
05-01-2007, 22:52
Why then does this thread exist if the answer is already available? If the FAQ says the HE Bolts don't suffer from the negatives to hit, like you say it does as I haven't read it, then the bolts don't suffer any negatives.

Whats the debate? Are there other Bolt Throwers that fire multiple times? I think only the DE right? They would suffer the penalty unless their FAQ or Army book states otherwise.

Neither the current HE FAQ nor the 7th ed BRB FAQ on the website have the ruling any more.

For me, neither bolt thrower gets -1 to hit, since they don't have the Multiple Shots rule, they just fire 6 shots.

Festus
05-01-2007, 23:29
...neither bolt thrower gets -1 to hit, since they don't have the Multiple Shots rule, they just fire 6 shots.
That's exactly the way it is.
That is the rules. :)

cf. BRB, p.55

Festus

szlachcic
05-01-2007, 23:55
This shouldn't even be an issue. No multiple shot special rule equals no hit modifier for firing the 6 bolts. Elves pay over twice the amount of other races just to get this rule and the extra BS even though the dwarves can get BS4 BTs for much cheaper.

intellectawe
06-01-2007, 00:02
For me, neither bolt thrower gets -1 to hit, since they don't have the Multiple Shots rule, they just fire 6 shots.

Sounds about right! Works for me.

TheWarSmith
06-01-2007, 01:19
This shouldn't even be an issue. No multiple shot special rule equals no hit modifier for firing the 6 bolts. Elves pay over twice the amount of other races just to get this rule and the extra BS even though the dwarves can get BS4 BTs for much cheaper.

Elves also get 1 less crew and their RBTs take up rare slots.

Palatine Katinka
06-01-2007, 01:41
1 less crew, not stubborn, not toughness 4. sigh I don't like Dwarfs.

I believe the Elf Bolt Throwers do not suffer a -1 to hit when firing 6 bolts.

T10
06-01-2007, 13:18
HE suck as is, let them have their multiple shots with no penalty. Does it really matter as you crush the under powered-overpriced HE army anyway?


Great! Dark Elves, however, rock. So I say they get the penalty. They'll hardly notice.

-T10

Palatine Katinka
06-01-2007, 15:06
Considering how few hits I get you'd think I did have a -1 to hit! ;)

What I do notice is that the "Corsairs" that are supposed to crew the Bolt Throwers seem to have forgotten their cloaks! Background says they are Corsairs and the armour on the models is the same style but they don't have Sea Dragon Cloaks. That would rock!

kir
06-01-2007, 15:10
just checked my DE book, it just says fire 6 bolts at crews BS at that strength and that - AS. worked out exactly like shots from bows or crossbows.(page 9, look for yourself)

Festus
06-01-2007, 15:54
Yes, of course, DE and HE BTs are exactly the same, save for the armour of the crew IIRC.

Festus

FatOlaf
06-01-2007, 17:53
Well it seems I'm wrong , must be something in the London air because no HE or DE player knew this rule, it will make their day when I tell them they no longer have the -1. However I still stand by the fact that you could argue this both ways, hence the reason people I know have got it wrong. Hopefully the new army books make it clearer.

Arhalien
06-01-2007, 18:12
Yes, of course, DE and HE BTs are exactly the same, save for the armour of the crew IIRC.

Festus

Wasn't that FAQed to give HE the armour? After all, the models clearly have armour.

ZomboCom
06-01-2007, 18:35
Yes, HE bolt thrower crew do have light armour.

Krankenstein
06-01-2007, 21:06
However I still stand by the fact that you could argue this both ways, hence the reason people I know have got it wrong. Hopefully the new army books make it clearer.

I don't think you can argue it both ways when you really get into it. However it is counterintuitive to have a universal multiple shot rule that say A, and a multiple shooter that is excepted from A without specifically mentioning it. To the casual eye (and very few Warhammer players master all the rules) a mix up is easy.

Gorbad Ironclaw
06-01-2007, 21:45
Well, yes and no. You only mix it up if you skim it. The multiple shot is a specific rule, and only governs weapons that says they have that rule. If it doesn't says it have that rule, it doesn't follow it. Simple really.

Krankenstein
06-01-2007, 22:05
There are many different kinds of complexity. A rules system might contain simple rules, and medium complex rules, but if it has a lot of such rules, the system as a whole becomes complex by volume. Warhammer is one such system.

So yes, any given rule can be defended. But at the same time a large number of warhammer players are playing the game “wrong” at any given time, and not because they are stupid.

EvC
07-01-2007, 21:51
Yes, some of the rules are unclear- there must be a significant portion of High Elf players who both believe the RPB has the multiple shot penalty and that Spearmen may only fight in one rank when charging. The correct interpretation isn't too difficult to work out, but it is a bit poorly phrased in the rulebook.

Ultimate ruling: look at the rules of Dark Elf Crossbowmen and the Reaper Bolt Thrower. If the crossbowmen have some kind of ruling that says "multiple shots" and the Bolt Thrower doesn't, then that's that.

Incidentally, multiple shot Magic Weapons like the Reaver Bow and Asp Bow wouldn't suffer this penalty either, would it...

Falkman
07-01-2007, 22:37
Ultimate ruling: look at the rules of Dark Elf Crossbowmen and the Reaper Bolt Thrower. If the crossbowmen have some kind of ruling that says "multiple shots" and the Bolt Thrower doesn't, then that's that.
Which is exactly the way it works.
Repeater crossbows have the Multiple shots x2 rule, the RBT has no such rule.


Incidentally, multiple shot Magic Weapons like the Reaver Bow and Asp Bow wouldn't suffer this penalty either, would it...
Nope, they would not.

Avian
08-01-2007, 13:22
Not unless they have the Multiple Shots rule. There is a Lizardmen bow with MS x3, I believe.

Arhalien
08-01-2007, 17:20
I;ve looked through the bt section, and can;t see where it says that they may fire multi-shots. can someone give me a page reference please?
Thanks

Festus
08-01-2007, 17:25
Hi

I;ve looked through the bt section, and can;t see where it says that they may fire multi-shots. can someone give me a page reference please?
Thanks
You won't find it in the BRB.

Only HighElf and DarkElf BTs can, anyway.

Greetings
FEstus

Arhalien
08-01-2007, 17:28
I thought someone mentioned that normal bts could fire multi-shots? Or did I misinterpret the post?

Flame
08-01-2007, 18:12
They were on about the cost comparison between the DE/HE ones and everything else.

Arhalien
08-01-2007, 18:20
ah well, looks like I;ve just made a bit of a fool of myself :)