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View Full Version : High Elf commander, which lore should I choose?



Jhayden
05-01-2007, 18:30
With my High Elf commander I decided to take the Radiant Gem of Hoeth. Many of you know what it does so hopefully you'll be able to help me choose a good lore for him.

At first I figured I could take the lore of fire, and try my luck at getting the spell Flaming Sword of Rhuine. However, I have been looking through the different lores when I noticed the Lore of Beasts.
Usually the Lore of Beasts goes unlooked by me, I had always figured it would be relatively weaker compared to the other lores I could take, but this isn't a mage with crappy combat abilities, this is a commander who just happens to be able to cast magic!

Now the spell I noticed is The Bear's Anger. When compared to Flaming Sword of Rhuine it gives me more attacks, less strength and more toughness. The only con this spell has is that I can't use a shield.

So, which would better suit my commander?

Just for reference, this is what the commander is outfitted with.

Commander
-Dragon Armor
-Shield
-Lance
-Barded Elven Steed
-Radiant Gem of Hoeth
*Rides in a unit of 5 Dragon Princes*

Lexmechanic
05-01-2007, 20:23
Bears Anger is definitely good, although you must be unmounted to cast it. Downside is that you won´t see your commander in bearform too often for it is very easy to dispell in the enemys turn. Once you have revealed that you possess such an ability for animalmutation your opponent is aware of it and will spare some dispell dice/scrolls to bounce it off immidetealy in the decisive moments of battle. But when it works it really pays for its points.

I like more a prince with Armour of Gods and Blade of Leaping Gold. Almost same effect but more reliable, and costly.

Tutore
05-01-2007, 21:18
You can read a battle report (it is the last one on the page) HERE (http://www.tutore.org/warhammer/warhammer.html) where I used a commander with the gem oh hoeth and lore of the beast. I massacred dwarves at 1000 points. You should get extra mages to help you. AND you should have the tiny arcane object that gives you an extra spell. TActic: until you don't get in hand to hand, you cast the other spell. I got raven feast, which was good: 2d6 hits at S3 launched with a 7. When you think you're going in HTH, or even when you already are in HTH, you cast bear's anger.

Glorfindel
05-01-2007, 21:22
Ehrm if I remember correctly you can't use any magic or other weapons because you are using your claws :s

Von Wibble
06-01-2007, 14:18
Tutore, as far as I am aware I believe you can't have arcane items and the radiant gem. I adamit I could be wrong on this however.

Even if you could, the gem plus silver wand is more than the 50 pts allowance for a commander so impossible as a combo unless used on a prince.

Jonahmaul
06-01-2007, 15:26
If you take Radiant Gem of Hoeth you count as a level one wizard with the exception that you can cast spells wearing armour. In a small game you can't take any lords so at 45 points it doesn't give you any points to spare on any other magic items.

You cannot use anything in your hands when your a bear so weapons & shields become useless whether magical or not.

I wouldn't bother with the gem at all, keep your Commander for fighting & just equip him with some items that make him better at that (the swordmaster skill is always a good one) & then take a wizard for casting spells. A wizard with the bears anger cast on him is going to be just as good at fighting as a commander.

Revlid
07-01-2007, 21:06
Tutore, as far as I am aware I believe you can't have arcane items and the radiant gem. I adamit I could be wrong on this however.

Even if you could, the gem plus silver wand is more than the 50 pts allowance for a commander so impossible as a combo unless used on a prince.

I think he was refering to having the item with another mage, so as to maximise the number of spells being cast and bleed the enemy's dispel pool dry, allowing the Bear's Anger to get through.

I'd go for the Lore of Fire, since the Bear's Anger stops you from being mounted.

Tutore
08-01-2007, 07:37
Excuse me, I wasn´t using the gem but the similar honor, which costs only 40 points, leaving 10 free for a commander.

EvC
08-01-2007, 10:57
Just to point out the not-so-obvious, if a Magic Item or ability turns a model into a Level 1 spellcaster, then he still can't cast spells if wearing armour. Unless you want to unarmour your Commander, all he'll be good for is an extra dispel dice. Which is what you'll see if you look at the battle report Tutore refers to, where his Commander has no armour :)

BloodiedSword
08-01-2007, 11:45
EvC - the point of the Radiant Gem is that it specifically allows the bearer to cast spells while wearing armour.

The Loremaster Honour does not, however.

I actually prefer Loremaster over the Radiant Gem. The Gem takes effectively your whole magic item allowance, whereas Loremaster still allows you 10 pts more. This is crucial as it allows you to take the Channeler Honour - casting on 3 dice means you can actually get spells off in small games.

Plus, it means your wizard in a unit can then pack a hefty punch if/when the unit charges. I wouldn't count on him to take hits though - T3 with no save is not renowned for its durability :)

I don't think these work on Lords really, as that means 2k+ battles where they will just be suffocated and not be useful.

EvC
08-01-2007, 12:00
Ah, I thought I remembered something like that, got confused with these two items/ abilities!

I can't see much use for these items, unfortunately. A Loremaster Commander isn't bad on paper, bad that T3 with no save is going to be dangerous if he gets into combat, so unless he's going into a unit that's counting on taking out the entire front row when he charges, he'll be very vulnerable. As BloodiedSword points out casting spells is difficult unless you're also a Channeler- but if you are using that, then you'll have to use the two spare power dice to cast spells with him. It depends on the rest of your army composition, for example if you use an Archmage, then you're going to want to save those two spare power dice for him.

But the Radiant Gem might be decent enough on a Commander, I've not tried it... however, you're unlikely to get that Flaming Sword, will only have a moderate chance of getting the spell off in the first place, so it's best to go for a Lore whose basic spell will benefit you the most. They're usually magic missiles, though you can get Fury of Khaine as a bound spell for not many points, which is always nice :)

Tutore
08-01-2007, 12:46
I put my commander completely NAKED with loremaster. Who cares of armour? He was within a unit of spearmen. He charged with Bear´s anger within the unit and managed to kill 4 dwarven warriors. Nobody can counter-hit him, then.

EvC
08-01-2007, 16:28
Against Dwarfs, that is a very safe bet, but anything with cavalry would have a horribly good chance of killing him on the charge :o

Arhalien
08-01-2007, 17:34
Flaming sword is a perfect treeman killer. on a commander, 4attacks hitting on 2s, wounding on 3s, ignolring armour saves and ward saves, dobule wounds. The one problem with flaming sword is that there's only a 1 in 6 chace of getting it. bear's anger is more reliable, as you can always get it if you want it.

Tutore
09-01-2007, 22:14
EvC I understand your point of view. I would make that commander the center of my tactic only in 1000 points. In 2000, it would be a diversion.

Palatine Katinka
09-01-2007, 23:50
With my High Elf commander I decided to take the Radiant Gem of Hoeth. Many of you know what it does so hopefully you'll be able to help me choose a good lore for him.

...

So, which would better suit my commander?

Just for reference, this is what the commander is outfitted with.

Commander
-Dragon Armor
-Shield
-Lance
-Barded Elven Steed
-Radiant Gem of Hoeth
*Rides in a unit of 5 Dragon Princes*

Take a leaf out of the Dark Kin's book and take The Lore Of Death. (Cue lightning and gasping)

Dark Hand of Death... Decent magic missile, no loss geting this.
Steal Soul... Kill enemy unit champions and add to your T3 character's Wounds.
Wind of Death... Better magic missile :D
Walking Death... Cast this on your Dragon Princes and watch as any unit below unit strength 12 needs double 1's not to run from you. Mwah hah hah! (My Cold One Knights ran through 3 Dwarf units because of Fear earlier tonight, yeah 2 were Cannons but how else do you get rid of Stubborn Ld9?) :evilgrin:
Doom & Darkness... Cast this on the target of your charge and, again, they'll probably need double 1's (or close to it) not to break.
Drain Life... Hits ALL enemy in 12"! Only S3 and difficult to cast but you can always swap it for Dark Hand. ;)

Ultimately, though, Spell 1 is the most important to consider from each list as it is the only one you can guarantee. From the (Lore of) Heavens, how does re-rolling all 1's to hit AND to wound for those Dragon Princes sound? Not bad at S5 when charging! Life offers Mistress of the Marsh, halving the Flee distance for the unit you just broke, as long as you can roll 9 on 3D6 you'll catch anyone.

To sum up, I'd take Life or Heavens supportted by a Level 2 Seer with Death or Shadow (for the Fear causing). Life and Death? You could even make that into some kind of theme for the army... :eyebrows:

eldrak
10-01-2007, 00:54
EvC
7th ed allows mages to cast spells while wearing armour. But as loremaster is worded as it is it will probably get the same (stupid) treatment that mark of Khorne got.

Samaeus
10-01-2007, 10:18
EvC
7th ed allows mages to cast spells while wearing armour. But as loremaster is worded as it is it will probably get the same (stupid) treatment that mark of Khorne got.

Wow, I really didn't believe this when I read it.
I'm still finding these subtle differences between 6th and 7th :confused:

Sadly, the only difference it would make to me anyway would be to let Von Carstein lord choices wear armour, and they don't have it as a possible selection anyway!

EvC
10-01-2007, 12:04
Wow, I hadn't noticed that until now eldrak! I'm trying to think of how I can use such evil knowledge... a von Carstein Vampire Lord could indeed take armour such as the Flayed Hauberk (1+ save) although as with the pessimism about the Loremaster wording, GW would probably FAQ it to mean that you can't take such magic armour and still cast spells.

Mephistofeles
10-01-2007, 12:19
What the hell, are you sure about that Eldrak? I am going to go downtown and check the book right now just because of that, if that is true, something is seriously amiss in the world of warhammer!

God damn it, farewell, and I shall return with page-reference of that, rest assured!

Glorfindel
10-01-2007, 12:29
Seriously, if that's so i'm giving my high elf lords loremaster for sure!

Search
10-01-2007, 13:16
While it does not state in the magic section that mages can cast while wearing armour, the sentence that used to say " Mages cannot wear armour as this interferes with their control of the magical forces" is not there anymore.

This means that there is no rule any more in the rulebook that prohibits mages from wearing armour.
Though this is made up when you check the allowance of equipment in the mage's entry of the list where it effectively says what a mage can or cannot wear.

If a Von Carnstein can wear armour ( and thus magic armour as well) he now can cast spells as well.

The change is not the biggest one around as there are few characters capable of casting spells other then using items ( and in my opinion it is still the use of the item that grants the capacity to cast , not the character himself).
So High elves and undead spring to mind and chaos already had the ability to cast while wearing armour.

The other spellcasters still have a hard time getting some protection other then ward saves.

Search

Arhalien
10-01-2007, 20:38
I doin;t think the 7th edition magic thing is the case , at least not intentionally.I haven;t got a reference, but I swa in the EMpire book (on a glance) an itrme, light armour, that mages could cast wearing. Ths would make this apparent casting with armour thiong seem false.

I imagine it to be an error in the book. I'm playing it 6th ed with this, just seems more right to me.

Mephistofeles
10-01-2007, 21:07
I have now read it, and it says that armours disrupt "most" mages harmonical balance and contact with nature and the winds of magic, but it does not in any way disallow it.

So, mages can now cast spells while wearing armour.

Fhoen
10-01-2007, 21:25
rofl , i think this is a bug in the book o.O
it just doesn't sound right , but on the other hand the loremaster thing doesn't sound right imho either cus mostly people want to play safe (i think) and give their chars some protection...
i'm gonna discuss this first at my local store :P

Mephistofeles
10-01-2007, 21:27
Well, this makes it very fun for High Elf players:

Loremaster Honour: Makes you a level 1 wizard for 40 points.
Radiant Gem of Hoeth: Makes you a level 1 wizard for 45 points. And then you can have no more amulets.

Fhoen
10-01-2007, 21:29
it seems so useless -.-
oh noes we got nerfed

Mephistofeles
10-01-2007, 21:37
Actually, High Elves only got better, since now the loremaster honour is as good as the gem :P

Catferret
11-01-2007, 02:37
OK people, look at the rulebook P121. A character that is not allowed to wear ordinary armour cannot be given Magic Armour/Helms (unless differently specified in the Army book). A character that is not allowed to be given ordinary shields cannot be given Magic Shields (unless differently specified in the Army book).

If you have a Wizard with access to these items then they may wear armour and cast spells.

Palatine Katinka
11-01-2007, 04:44
Yeah, a normal wizard doesn't have access to armour and so cannot have magic armour unless the armour's, or the wizard's, description says otherwise.

Loremaster states that you cannot cast while wearing armour.

Jhayden
11-01-2007, 05:43
Yeah, a normal wizard doesn't have access to armour and so cannot have magic armour unless the armour's, or the wizard's, description says otherwise.

Loremaster states that you cannot cast while wearing armour.

Yeah, if it specifically says that you cannot cast while armor I think that's what it's going for.

EvC
11-01-2007, 09:35
If you have a Wizard with access to these items then they may wear armour and cast spells.

Damn you, that kills my evil non-High Elf plans! Good work :)

Mephistofeles
11-01-2007, 13:40
Well yes, but we all know that they put it on the honour as a reminder and nod towards the rulebook, not to override it.

Anyway, I know that's how it states now, and so that is what must be followed.

And mr Catferret: Yes, that's what it says, but that does not stop characters becoming mages to cast spells while wearing armour, as it was before. That's the point here.