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View Full Version : Thats it, I am bailing (from buying gw)



darren redstar
05-01-2007, 22:20
I have been reading the comments on the gw profits thread and comparing them with my own experiences.
5 years ago I got into gaming through gw.
then I was a train driver bringing home £28k pa.
I am now a disabled unemployed student with a family.
10 plastic models for £12? or £18 for marines?
or food for the kids?
no contest.
i love gaming but I can't justify spending this sort of money.
can someone tell me about historical gaming?
I love 30 year war, ecw, 16th 17th century stuff
foundry and renegade models seem so much better value
any advice?

Griefbringer
05-01-2007, 22:39
can someone tell me about historical gaming?


There is a section on Warseer dedicated for that purpose:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=77

Brother Smith
05-01-2007, 22:43
What happened to Warhammer Historical?

Crazy Harborc
06-01-2007, 01:32
What happened to Warhammer Historical?

Still going strong. As far as discussion on Warseer, most of the people here seem to have started gaming using one of GW's systems of rules and GW minies.

Heck, I hang around because of enjoying some/many of the posts/posters. Still playing WHFB is secondary. I usually go to other forums to discuss WAB.

The game is afoot
06-01-2007, 07:57
Still going strong. ...

.... but not as strong as it was...

For a while there a couple of years ago WAB was really flying but now the newcomers has dropped off as many players realised that there is power creep in the new books and it gives an unfair advantage to those players coming into the hobby over those using armies from the older lists. There was a lot of heated debate about it on the WAB forums.

Consequently a chunk of them voted with their feet and went to Flames of War. WWII historical. That was certainly the trend last year at tournaments.
Flames of War has grown very quickly and profited from the upset WAB players.

Spacemunkie
07-01-2007, 11:45
Foundry are an utter con price wise and their p&p is extortionate.

There are plenty of other better value historical companies out there - Artizan, Crusader, Black Tree Design, TAG, Steve Barber, Vendel....

Acolyte of Bli'l'ab
07-01-2007, 14:59
I too am disabled and have to live off benefits so I can relate to your current situation a bit. The prices do make it harder and harder to buy the models too.

simonr1978
07-01-2007, 18:47
I am not disabled and earn a pretty decent wage working on the S&E/(NWR equivalent S&T only better paid/vs worse hours) on the London Underground, however I have not been able to justify spending such money for quite some time, pre- the turn of the millenia is the last time I actually handed over money/debit card in a GW store. Niche product is fine all the while you're trying to corner niche market, try to expand into mainstream and the overheads mean you are likely to lose.

Lockjaw
08-01-2007, 00:06
meh, I just get all my mini's through ebay or trades (and not just trading gw for gw either, got a decent amount of tau for some old golfclubs i found in a dumpster on campus)

Osbad
08-01-2007, 11:06
There is a thriving Historical Wargaming community out there. It was around long before GW came along and will be around long after it has disappeared.

If you are wanting to have a look around and see what's what then you could do worse than look at http://theminiaturespage.com There are a miriad different systems out there. Too many to name. Similarly there are lots and lots of "independent" manufacturers out there too. The internet has made a boom in trade for these guys!

The best place to see any of this stuff "in the flesh" is at a Wargames Show. (kind of like Games Day, but for indie retailers) Without knowing where you live I can't make a recommendation, but I know in the UK pretty much wherever you live there will be one witihin a reasonable drive held at least once a year!

A good magazine to keep an eye out for in any newstand is "Wargames Illustrated" (http://www.wargamesillustrated.net/) which is in most UK newsstands. Wargames Journal is a great read too: http://www.wargamesjournal.com/home/index.asp

There is tons of stuff out ther. Just Google for "historical wargame", and take it from there...


And guess what? The best thing is that you can get models in any size from 2mm to 54mm and above. In plastic and in metal. And all at a tiny fraction of the prices that GW, PP or Rackham charge for their fantasy models!

Discovering "indie" wargaming a couple of years back kept my sanity. Now instead of that "ugh, I got burned again" feeling I used to get when my initial enthusiasm for a purchase dies, I retain the joy! The "value for money" factor is much greater when the prices are lower!

Crazy Harborc
09-01-2007, 02:28
Wargaming with little toy soldiers had been around as a hobby (for adults) for at least 140 years before GW was invented.

During the year past, GW claimed 750,000 GW gamers are out there playing. Heck there were at least 3 million wargamers world wide out there (that's an OLD stat).

GW (for now) is the largest, single company making a full range of wargaming supplies (Darn near all they sell is TOP price):(

Aundae
09-01-2007, 17:35
I wish someone around here played warhammer historical games, I would love to get a Perry Brothers Samurai army going.

Crazy Harborc
10-01-2007, 01:24
I wish someone around here played warhammer historical games, I would love to get a Perry Brothers Samurai army going.

I suggest checking for then with any local (within oh, 100 miles) hobbyshops/gaming stores.

Do you know about www.warhammer.org.uk

Aundae
10-01-2007, 05:59
I suggest checking for then with any local (within oh, 100 miles) hobbyshops/gaming stores.

Do you know about www.warhammer.org.uk

Thank you for the link I'll check it out.

Crazy Harborc
10-01-2007, 21:27
If you've got some Empire and or Bretonnians, they will fit in a lot of the WAB armies in Age of Chivalry. www.oldgloryminiatures.com Check out the discount deal;)

Aundae
10-01-2007, 21:44
Another awesome link, I love Old Glory. :D

The game is afoot
02-02-2007, 20:52
If you are bailing out of Warhammer, and you want to be able to use all opf your GW models there is always Armies of Arcana.
It allows any models from any manufacturers and it has ancient/historical and fantasy wargaming within it's umbrella of genres.
http://rajdhillon.forumup.ca/index.php?mforum=rajdhillon
Tournaments are starting in a few months in the UK.

Gaebriel
04-02-2007, 11:51
Historical wargaming can be the cheapest thing when you consider using a scale smaller than 25/28mm. Even if you choose metals (http://www.corvusbelli.com/en/02_tiendacorvus_rtdo.asp?IDNOTICIA=210), a whole army can be as cheap as £30 (depending on the game system), and if you use plastics, well - remember these (http://www.fuhrmann-figuren.de/sammlervorstellung/willers/hat8064.htm)? An army for a tenner...

The game is afoot
04-02-2007, 18:18
It's true, 15mm armies for historical or Fantasy are considerably cheaper than their 28mm counterparts.

studderigdave
06-02-2007, 00:26
my major spending days are over. im living off the GI bill and a PT job that brings in enough to cover gas. i am happy with the 4 armies i have. i have plenty of painting ahead of em, and on occasion ill pick something up just to paint. i do alot of trading on b-town.

The game is afoot
07-02-2007, 10:13
Bartertown and eBay have been the really big winners of the price hikes.
By raising prices so regularly GW and to a lesser extent Rackham, have created a healthy second hand market for their toys on auction sites.

superczhunk
07-02-2007, 10:23
20-man units of greatswords cost $82 now instead of the old $105 and I was surprised by the $22 for 5 cavalry...$0.03 increase per model from the old 8 unit boxed set. So far everything else is still in the mid-high range of pricing. I don't plan on buying anything new in the next 4 months or so, so we'll see where the pricing goes for the next army.

The game is afoot
09-02-2007, 22:24
I think the pistoliers have dropped in price a lot with the advent of the new plastic pistoliers. They are one unit that will make the new Empire collector a lot happier than the price of the metal pistoliers in blisters.
This is the kind of positive pricing differential that could bring the older gamers into collecting plastic models in addition to their metals.

KTG
10-02-2007, 06:03
I make good money, but GW prices just seem so ridiculous that I rarely buy anything from a gaming store unless it is discounted. I get all of my stuff from Ebay. I remember when Epic 40k sprues were selling for $3.50 each, and now they are two for $24 or something. Whatever. At the end of the day, as great as GWs minis really are, the hobby is not worth as much as they think it is.

The game is afoot
10-02-2007, 08:26
I make good money, but GW prices just seem so ridiculous that I rarely buy anything from a gaming store unless it is discounted. I get all of my stuff from Ebay. I remember when Epic 40k sprues were selling for $3.50 each, and now they are two for $24 or something. Whatever. At the end of the day, as great as GWs minis really are, the hobby is not worth as much as they think it is.

That is the fundamental reason why sales have dropped away so much.
The price point.
If you keep raising the prices relentlessly, as GW have since 2003 in particular, the product will find a ceiling where sales begin to drop off.
Thats basic economics.
In regard to an earlier point, as GW create new plastics, they are keeping the 'blister' price encapsulated within the new plastics and they are now really rather expensive compared to just before xmas.
At the end of the trip to the store, you get home and open the box, trim the troops away from the sprues... and all of a sudden you have a very expensive collection of small bits of plastic that sit comfortably inside the palm of your hand.
That is a sobering moment.

dodicula
13-02-2007, 08:14
I used to buy all their stuff and defend them (need to stay in business blah blah blah) but 40K just doesn't do it for me anymore and their warhammer releases leave something to be desired (I got BFSP, and I think the Hellborg model is nice but other than that they haven't made anything I wanted in a good year), and white dwarf just flat out sucks.

I still play warhammer, but now buy almost exclusively rackham models as they are 10 times better sculpted (if not as durable) than warhammer and am looking to get a few Gamezone models as well. (also Cry Havoc makes me sad as its everything white dwarf used to be).

In short I am involuntarily bailing on GW as they are simply not the best value in the gaming market anymore. The better wake up too as I think many others are joining me or will be soon!

The boyz
13-02-2007, 12:03
At the end of the day, as great as GWs minis really are, the hobby is not worth as much as they think it is.

I completely agree. I have about another £100 quid that I am going to spend on GW products, mainly specialist games and that will be that. Then I am going to make a switch over to WAB.

I just cannot justify paying the high prices that GW charge for there products. When companies like Renegade Miniatures, charge £8 for 8 metal miniatures which are very well sculpted.

The only products that I am still going to buy from GW in the forseeable future, other then my specialist games items, will be paints and flocks and that will be about it.

Groksnag
13-02-2007, 13:25
I pesonally dont care how expensive the stuff gets at GW. If you game there, you should have the deceny to buy models from them. Cause if the GW stores go away, then a lot of people (myself included) will have to settle with playing against themself (boring! no point in playing if i win every time), teach people to play the game when said people dont care/hate Warhammer Fantasy/40,000, or somehow find a club to play at, or find someone who lives nearby who also plays.
support your gamestore, I for one, will always be a faithful buyer from GW. I love the store, I love the game, I love everything about it (well.....maybe not the price so much, but where else are you going to find such a fun game that doesnt need a computer for so little? your not.)
Heck, if it werent for GW, Id be addicted to videogames and not WH40K. and I admit, I am addicted/obsessed with WH40K.
but now that college is coming up, I might have to pack up the models for a while.

SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL GAMESWORKSHOP!

Groksnag

The game is afoot
13-02-2007, 13:41
I'd say support your local gaming club, they will be around long after different systems, figure manufacturers, gaming stores and corporations have gone by the wayside.
If you support your local gaming club you will be providing a place where you and like minded people can gather into your old age and from there you will find you can collectively support whatever games you choose to play.
Clubs guarantee your area a gaming future because when the store is gone you still have the Internet as a purchase point. You can still buy any models you like from anywhere inthe world, and take them to your club to enjoy them on the table.

Gaebriel
13-02-2007, 13:43
SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL GAMESWORKSHOP!
If you ever play there :p

Otherwise support your local Gameclub or your dinner table...

Though that's an interesting point - for those who are bound to play at their local Games Workshop, the price relativizes when you factor in that you're paying a kinda fee for a playing area...

Crazy Harborc
13-02-2007, 18:40
For at least 37 years of my wargaming hobby life, I did NOT game in a GW store. When I bought GW products direct or indirect, I didn't get to use those GW store tables.

The indies were a place to play. They sold more than just GW products. The remaining few still do, by the by.

Funny thing....before GW opened a store in this area of 2 & 1/2 million potential customers there were over 11 stores selling GW products. Along came the GW store, then there were 12 stores. Now just a few short years since that glorious day....there are 3 stores including GW's. How does THAT expand the numbers playing GW systems??

Bombot
13-02-2007, 18:51
I think supporting your local independent shop if you game there is noble and should be encouraged.

Games Workshop, on the other hand, set the damn crazy prices in the first place. If I do everything I can to get a discount, that’s their own fault.

sheck2
13-02-2007, 19:53
Funny thing....before GW opened a store in this area of 2 & 1/2 million potential customers there were over 11 stores selling GW products. Along came the GW store, then there were 12 stores. Now just a few short years since that glorious day....there are 3 stores including GW's. How does THAT expand the numbers playing GW systems??



Crazy,

The issue is that gaming stores (like hobby stores in general) have been declining. That trend has nothing to do with GW, but the computer/video gaming trend...coupled with some big-box craft stores opening.

The question for the US industry is how to improve the quality of the play-space in a declining market?

Larger companies like GW can weather the typical day-to-day issues a retail store faces, while independents cannot. So they stand a better chance of lasting. On the other hand, IMO the independent stores provide a better gaming experience than the GW stores.

GW's strategy is to vertically integrate i.e. replace independents so recapture the 40% margin they are giving away. So they are helping the decline of the indy store. This can backfire if they close too many and severely limit the play-space.

The game is afoot
13-02-2007, 20:36
Funny thing....before GW opened a store in this area of 2 & 1/2 million potential customers there were over 11 stores selling GW products. Along came the GW store, then there were 12 stores. Now just a few short years since that glorious day....there are 3 stores including GW's. How does THAT expand the numbers playing GW systems??

Standard retail chain aggressive marketing.
Encourage the product in the area through Independent outlets, when it is catching on fire set up a direct outlet and scoop the pool.
In the early 90's there was a very successful Independent store called pendragon games in downtown Auckland. It did comics and games and card etc. it thrived over time and expanded to a new premises.
In a mall on the first floor they did more of the same but they did more GW product than anything else.
One year later GW moved a store into Auckland central.
In fact, into the same street, into the same building, directly underneath Pendragon games on the ground floor.
Do you think that could be some kind of a mad coincidence?

Aundae
13-02-2007, 21:37
SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL GAMESWORKSHOP!

I support my local independent gaming store because I can go there and get a good game going with someone who is roughly my own age. I will never support a GW store because I donít like hanging out with 10 year olds.

floyd pinkerton
13-02-2007, 21:48
I have to say, at our local GW the part-timers all got sacked except one, and all their friends all left the veterans clubs etc., which were then completely destroyed, driving most of the more experienced players away.

I don't mean to be anti-noob (if that's a phrase :D) but the gap has been filled by this creature, and now the boards are constantly covered by 718.45 point games, featuring marneus calgar and half a terminator, who has a heavy bolter :)

Back on subject, I'm thinking about leaving my GW as I went to a friends recently, and in normal GW hours, and on 2 boards (our GW has 3), seven of us managed four games each, and two five. At GW, we may have been lucky to get 1 or 2.

It's not so much the prices driving me and my friends away, but the atmosphere.

gitburna
15-02-2007, 16:48
Okay, perhaps i'm missing the point here, but assuming you've been playing for 5 or so years, is there some sort of reason why you cant carry on playing using your old miniatures?

Crazy Harborc
15-02-2007, 22:02
IMHO, at a GW store.....it's mainly to feed the GW stockholders a dividend that we "must/should" trash can minies to buy/use the latest replacements.

IMHO, the older/more experienced/longer playing gamers doing a GW system is more likely to keep using the old whatevers.

I am still going to use my old, old, HE, Chaos and Empire knight minies that cost me LESS than $20(USD) for 8.......$35 was the current GW price as of this week. Higher for less than couple of the others versions.

Osbad
16-02-2007, 10:27
Okay, perhaps i'm missing the point here, but assuming you've been playing for 5 or so years, is there some sort of reason why you cant carry on playing using your old miniatures?

Other than boredom, no. It's fun to dig the old stuff out from time to time.And I know some who treck out the same old army time after time. But for me, I like novelty and variety.

Maybe I have a short attention span or something, but once I've got the hang of the way a particular army plays, I want to switch onto something else.

Plus I really enjoy painting and collecting - so I like to keep buying stuff to feed that habit.

GW's ridiculous prices and old-fashioned and desperately-in-need-of-revision gaming systems have forced me away from them, and most definitely away from their stores to meet those requirements.

dodicula
16-02-2007, 17:28
GW's ridiculous prices and old-fashioned and desperately-in-need-of-revision gaming systems have forced me away from them, and most definitely away from their stores to meet those requirements.

What gaming systems have you switched to?

The game is afoot
18-02-2007, 11:57
What gaming systems have you switched to?

Armies of Arcana.
£15 quid for a rulebook and 15 army lists inside it with everything else available for free on the website.
I get to use ALL my existing GW miniatures so it doesn't crush my wallet, and I get a better, newer more balanced and realistic rule system.

If GW ever get their act together again and decide to remember the older gaming fraternity I've still got the models to return without taking out a mortgage to buy back into the system.

BozzyB
18-02-2007, 12:16
I(well.....maybe not the price so much, but where else are you going to find such a fun game that doesnt need a computer for so little? your not.)
Groksnag

Off the top of my head:

Chess? I can get a decent magnetic chess set for a pound. Literally one pound, from the pound shop. Risk? £20 tops, then you never need to buy anything more after that? Jumpers-for-goalposts football? And thats not even scratching the surface, theres buckets of cheap fun out there.




BozzyB

Bombot
19-02-2007, 09:21
There are plenty of good boardgames out there (Risk, however, would not count amongst my favourites) that cost about £25-30. Pay around £45 and you can get one with lots of minis too.

BozzyB
23-02-2007, 23:53
A bit off topic, but could you suggest any?

Risk is one of the few that I've played.




BozzyB

swordwind
24-02-2007, 00:23
Escape from Colditz :p

ashc
24-02-2007, 00:34
I played Dungeon Twister this evening, awesome board game (and no its not Twister LARP!)

Ash

The game is afoot
24-02-2007, 06:51
Have a look on eBay under 'Avalon hill', you will find some superb board games on there at very reasonable prices.

Dspankdo
24-02-2007, 09:05
I really like ticket to ride from days of wonder. I really have to get around to buying pirates cove.