View Full Version : Mathematics to Replace Measuring

Strictly Commercial

13-07-2005, 08:50

Okay, now I am not one to start doing things that ruin the fun of the game, but I have a question involving the basic rules of guessing.

The rules for guessing clearly state that you can't measure from an artillery piece to the target before announcing your estimated target distance (thus the reason it's called "guessing"). However, it states nothing about taking a known measurement, say the distance to another artillery piece that you own, taking a protractor, measuring the angles along the lines that extend to the target from both pieces, and using the Law of Sines to determine the exact distance.

Is this violating the spirit of the rules? I'm not saying I want to do it, but I like to be prepared for the contingency of somebody trying it in the future (no, I have never seen it before, it's something I thought up a while back and never asked about).

I would say that it is going ott.

however most players(i do) use math do gues ie i know he was 24" away at the start and he has moved 6" therefore he is roughly 18" away.

EDIT: i also think it says that no tape measure can be used to determine the guess range of the warmachine

If anybody did do this I'd walk away simply for the reason that if anybody takes the game that seriously then they're not worth playing!

lordmetroid

13-07-2005, 09:12

My brother do these small calculations all the time... They ain't hard and he doesn't use anything.. No hands no things but his eyes his memory and some basic knowledge of math. No need to take into account for angles and stuff to make a precise hit. It works fine just guessing the rest of the range.

McMullet

13-07-2005, 10:14

You should declare all your guess range weapons prior to taking out the tape measure in any shooting phase. If you declare then measure one at a time, then there's nothing to say you haven't had a sly glimpse at the tape for the next one. The unavoidable part is from known distances, such as the deployment distance minus 1st turn move, or just knowing the size of the table. This aspect of guessing ranges takes far more skill, and so is alright IMO - although it depends on the table (if it's made of 1' tiles, it can be a bit unfair).

I do not know what the designers wanted to achieve with guess-range weapons. Perhaps it introduces an element of chance. Perhaps it is to reward the players that play the game dilligently and develop a keen eye for this sort of thing.

At any rate, you should try not to antagonize your opponent by performing any sort of measuring in the shooting phase before declaring your guessed ranges.

A few tips, though:

If you have more than one guess-range weapon, write down your guesses as you make them.

This is immediately helpful to keep track of which shot goes where and avoids questions like "was that 34" or 32" for my stone-thrower?". It also helps you keep track of how good your "ranging shots" were and adjust for the following rounds without cheating.

-T10

Even better Magic phase is befor shooting - you put a mage with lore of fire and throw a fire ball at enemy that you want to hit with that nearby warmachine and even if you know that it's to far you can massure :D and get the exact locataion - not fair BUT are SAD armys or Dragons in 2K format fair or enjoyable ??? I'm total ass if someone uses overpowered unfluffy and unbalanced rooster ( as I've said he either goes mage or hero hammer ) but if my opponent birngs rooster that is fun to play I'm sport and even let him cancel his move when he takes hands of his figures and so on ( if i like him i even let him do a forgoten magic phase after shooting and so on ). SO here is my point - if you are playing an ******* - dont be kind and fair because he only wants to win and if you let him he will keep doing things like that on and on but if you teach him a lesson by beeting his unbalanced exploiting army and be very unplesant to him he will rethink the concept of playin table top wargames ;)

...but if my opponent birngs rooster that is fun to play I'm sport and even let him cancel his move when he takes hands of his figures and so on...

:wtf: I do this anyway, no matter who i am playing against, there is no rule against changing your mind and moving your units somewhere different. Aslong as it is still the movement phase you can change your mind as much as you want, warhammer isn't chess.

As for guess range weapons, small calculations are something i expect people to do but nothing on the scale of what is described in the first post.

Strictly Commercial

14-07-2005, 05:26

Okay, then, no trigonometry in WFB. Good policy. From now on, I'll be certain to make clear that house rule whenever I play against a force with guess weapons ;) .

I guess I'm just a little paranoid. I've seen some pretty dodgy attempts to circumvent the spirit of the game and using math is certainly a possibility.

Kensai X

14-07-2005, 06:11

I do minor math calculations playing Warhammer and 40k all the time it's useful to know the minimum amount of firepower it takes to knock out and enemy unit or somthing similar...

But I have limits and if someone got out a protractor and one of those TI-97 1/2 Crepe cooking calculators I'd slap them and tell them to play the game.

Best way to get better at guessing is to take two coins, flip them into the air, and try to guess the distance between them, and then check the distance.

McMullet

14-07-2005, 09:43

Okay, then, no trigonometry in WFB. Good policy. From now on, I'll be certain to make clear that house rule whenever I play against a force with guess weapons ;) .

I guess I'm just a little paranoid. I've seen some pretty dodgy attempts to circumvent the spirit of the game and using math is certainly a possibility.

It's pretty difficult to stop though, if you can do it in your head. I would say that when you're declaring your guesses, you should have your hands behind your back, no holding arms over the table, no calculators, no scribbled maths. If you can do pythagoras in your head, and judge distances by eye, fair enough. You still can't really get inch-perfect accuracy that way without a lot of practice.

Cheesejoff

14-07-2005, 16:20

Trigonometry should never be used on the Warhammer field. Never. It should never be taught in schools, it should never have been invented, but most importantly THE HEATHEN TRIANGLES WILL NOT DEFILE THE GLORIOUS GAME OF WARHAMMER!

Using trig is taking it too far. Really. That's like pulling out a graphics calculator with the Warhammer rules inputted, then running a program that can work out the odds of a unit winning combat....actually, thats not a bad idea....

Well being a math teacher, I certianly wouldn't mind this. In fact I'd encourage it myself!!!

MarcoPollo

14-07-2005, 23:54

I myself am a math teacher for 14-19 year olds. In the spirit of the game I will not use pen and paper to do any calculations but what I can do in my head is my own business. Using trig is not as neccessary as statistics though. Still, having fun is the name of the game and if doing calculations with trig is fun and both players agree, then there is no problem. It kind of brings the spirit of how artillery engineers would have to make decisions on distance.

But, unless I knew my opponent well and were having a friendly game I wouldn't even bring it up.

As for teaching children about math and trigonometry, I use this for in class demonstrations of the Sine Law all the time. (maybee I don't call it Warhammer but the idea is the same)

Gorog Irongut

17-07-2005, 15:20

I don't use math when using my guess weapons. But that's just because I'm good at guessing. On the other hand I would be more than happy to let my opponent use it. It promotes learning and is in fact what the crew would really be trying to do. I don't see a problem with it as long as he doesn't prolong the game because of his inability to carry the 2.

The rules for guessing clearly state that you can't measure from an artillery piece to the target before announcing your estimated target distance (...) it states nothing about taking a known measurement, say the distance to another artillery piece that you own, taking a protractor, measuring the angles along the lines that extend to the target from both pieces, and using the Law of Sines to determine the exact distance.

i think this says it all... no mesurings on the guess phase... using the angles to mesure the distance is a way of mesuring... so, i think someone doing this is going way beyond the spirit of the game, is in fact cheating...

I don't think 'maths and trig' is out of place for guessing ranges, considering the actual crew of the machine will be doing the exact same to work out how to angle the gun!

However, actually measuring things, working angles with help and such *shouldn't* be allowed. If the player is competent enough to do simple(or complex!) trig quickly in their head, by all means, do so! However, if it means measuring distances NO. If it means calculating by hand or machine, NO. If it takes more than a few seconds and really slows the game down, NO.

Xisor

BloodiedSword

17-07-2005, 20:06

At the end of the day, what goes around comes around.. karma and all that. If someone uses dodgy measuring and trig to calculate the distance they need to guess, then you can be sure that they're in for a Misfire or two, or perhaps just shots scattering onto their own troops.. maybe that cannonball embedding itself in the ground inches before its intended target, etc.

A favoured tactic of mine if I sense or see my opponent doing this is to complement them on a particularly well painted unit, ask rules questions, say "wibble" or pelt them with dice, depending on how nice they are and how well I know them. They quickly enter the spirit of the game! :p

They need to make all the Guess Range weapons function like their 40k counterparts.

Knight Panther

18-07-2005, 23:09

A protractor? HAHAHAHA

I would be speechless and annoyed if someone did this!

I use distances guessed in previous turns and how far units had moved to guess distances, and a qucik mental calculation of pythagoruses (spelling) theorem... more often easier than sine law or cosine law, lol.

Well that might not be true, but I don't use angles to guess distances...

Just what I do....

Man, I would crack up if someone wanted to do law of sines to figure out a guess range weapon! If you need to take it that seriously then all the more power to ya man...lol. Good to see there are some fellow math teachers on here! I must say that if an opponent did this, I would probably give him props on his knowledge of trig, then tell him it's a little over the top for a game and just make a guess. (using whatever mental math he wants, obviously.) I do like the idea of using this as a demonstration for my math class though! Gonna have to remember that!

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