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speedygogo
06-01-2007, 10:50
So far my opinion of the new empire army is poor because it has introduced uber cheese, as now they have a mobile gunline. I'm seeing 2 large units of 10 outriders with 2 large units of 10 pistoliers supported by great magic and knights.

The pistoliers flush you into the range of the outriders and you get shot to pieces before you get mowed down by the knights. The damned hochland long rifle gets given to unit champs who with then proceed to snipe characters. It is like an empire version of the southlands list except it is more mobile as everything in the army moves at least 14 inches. I play ogre kingdoms, vampires and am building both nurgle and slaanesh daemon legions.

Anyone else running into the problem of 90-120 str 4 armor piercing shots in da rump.

Neknoh
06-01-2007, 11:46
Wait, wait, wait, hold it RIGHT THERE!

You are building a Slaaneshi Daemonic Legion and you are having problems with him OUTMANOUVERING you!? :eyebrows:

You have a 20 inch charge range on Chariots and big, badass units, put two chariots into that Outrider-unit and it will dissapear

DeathlessDraich
06-01-2007, 12:12
:D 120 armour piercing shots? Cheapest combination - 115 Handgunners plus 5 pistoliers. Thats 1010 pts!

1) It'll be imposiible for all of them to target the same unit. Assume about half can shoot which is generous - 60 shots requiring 5+ workdks out as 20 hits plus 4 pistolier hits.

Against T3 say, this causes 14 saves. 3 units of 5 Mounted Daemonettes with a 5+Ward save - approx 9 slain, leaving 1 whole unit plus another unit of 1 model to charge and win combat easily.

You could scale in S&S but even then 1 unit of MD will be able to charge

2) Since the Handgunners are move or shoot, the other faster Slaanesh units can easily move past existing gaps etc and position themselves for a rear charge.

1000 easy VPs at a cost of 300 or so pts.

Neknoh
06-01-2007, 12:18
Deathless, what he's complaining about is that said shots comes from Pistolers and Outriders, which are both Fast Cavalry and have plenty of shots to dish out since the entire unit gets to shoot according to fast cav. rules

Axel
06-01-2007, 12:41
Don`t forget that shooting multiple shots is at -1 for BS, so at BS2 for the outriders and pistoliers. Add in long distance for the outriders, and you have BS1.
On another note, 20 outriders and 20 pistoliers come at 800+ pts, at a ridiculus cc-value. While they are good in supporting roles for an army, they make a bad backbone.

Makaber
06-01-2007, 13:36
Also, they die in droves. It's a very one-trick-pony (thee hee, "pony") and will probably suffer tremendeously against any and all missile fire that outrange them. Also, anything mobile enough to get into close combat will kick their ass by default: I'm thinking monstrous fliers in particular.

I expect to see a lot of outriders around in the near future, before people figure out how to counter them, and they will fall back to their intended role.

Von Wibble
06-01-2007, 14:28
Axel, Outriders have BS 4 not 3. But I agree entirely with the point you are making - I'm just being pedantic;)

The problem for me with this as an idea is that in order to fire you need to be in one rank, so 10 models shooting gives a very restrictive frontage.

Outriders are move or fire so they can't shoot every turn. If they do then they are effectively space saving handgunners - with 3 times the firepower at slightly less points.

But against most armies, a volley of firepower from even high elf archers will do a large amount of damage to the outriders first, thanks to larger range.

In a 2500 pts game I always include 1 unit of pistoliers, and usually either a second bolockor outriders. But I use them as support troops who can provide firepower. For me the solid(ish) foot troops and knights are teh backbone of my army.

fearchanges
06-01-2007, 15:58
generally; use the terrain wisely, because your opponent can't shoot pin-point all of his shooting on 1 unit at the time. Get some expandeble units to catch of the fire and a lot of fast running stuff like for example; fell bats, dire wolves, slaanesh deamon cavalry and chariots, etc.

speedygogo
06-01-2007, 15:59
I agree with most of the above points. What the guy is doing is baiting you in with the pistoliers, which can more and shoot, into the fire of the outriders. These are strength 4 hits that are -2 to armor. The pistoliers can move 16 inches before release up 4x mutiple shots and the outriders have x3 multiple shots. What sucks about these cheesy tactic is that the damage is being done with relatively inexpensive fast cav and that there is an army of hard hitting knights behind the gauntlet of missile fire.

I agree that it is a matchup thing but what can big monster armies do against these type of tactics but pray for luck or die. At least against a gunline you only have to get survive the first rank of shots. However surviving against a whole unit that multiple shot is different matter all together. One unit of outriders can put up as much lead as a 30 man handgunner unit and maintain a 5 man frontage. It sucks. IMO they made them too good.

speedygogo
06-01-2007, 16:04
generally; use the terrain wisely, because your opponent can't shoot pin-point all of his shooting on 1 unit at the time. Get some expandeble units to catch of the fire and a lot of fast running stuff like for example; fell bats, dire wolves, slaanesh deamon cavalry and chariots, etc.

I do this already. My point is that I can recognize cheese when I see it. The empire now has two types of gunlines and the mobile one is way worse than the footslogger equivalent because of the mobilty of the mounts and the versatility of being fast cav, ie 360 LOS. This list probably would be able to stomp the **** out of a flying circus b/c out a stand and shoot charge response.

Manflayer
06-01-2007, 16:19
How can a pistolier get 4x multiple shots? unless its with a repeater pistol and normal pistol but not all of them can do that only the outrider (if upgraded) can do that.

Lieutenant Frederic Henry
06-01-2007, 20:32
Pistoliers shoot 2x shots (Fusillade). 7 pistoliers with a marksmen with repeater pistol put out 16 S4 -2 AS shots in one turn on a 5+ to hit. This kills a few deamonettes/cavalry etc. In the enemy turn, the pistoliers can elect to stand and shoot, putting out the exact same kind of firepower, or they can flee. If they do elect to stand and shoot, in one "turn" (i.e. two 'player' turns) each pistolier has shot 4x, and the marksmen with repeater has shot 8x.
Cheers.

stashman
07-01-2007, 05:06
O&G have the medicine against lots of outriders and pistoliers - Horn of Ugrok + Pipes of Doom. Bye bye cavalry!

samw
07-01-2007, 05:58
which are both Fast Cavalry and have plenty of shots to dish out since the entire unit gets to shoot according to fast cav. rules

Eh? Maybe I'm just being blind but I can't see that rule on Page 70 of the BRB. 360 degree arc of fire for shooting yes but surely the front rank blocks the back rank? I suppose if you went side on perhaps...


O&G have the medicine against lots of outriders and pistoliers - Horn of Ugrok + Pipes of Doom. Bye bye cavalry!

Dispel scroll ;)

thommo
07-01-2007, 12:30
i might be wrong but i dont think the pipes are a spell - blowing them is done in the shooting phase (i think the horn is a spell though)....pipes are good on their own however, seen virtually a whole Brettonina army flee off the board due to this :D what a happy sight :cool:

Von Wibble
07-01-2007, 13:33
i might be wrong but i dont think the pipes are a spell - blowing them is done in the shooting phase (i think the horn is a spell though)....pipes are good on their own however, seen virtually a whole Brettonina army flee off the board due to this :D what a happy sight :cool:

Amen to that!:evilgrin:

The pipes are not a spell, quite correct.

I agree with samw regarding which models can fire - hence my comment above about having difficulty getting units larger than 5-6 models to all shoot.