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Von Wibble
06-01-2007, 15:18
Rough idea is a balanced force that has a particular focus on the more holy elements within the characters

ArchLector - War Alter, heavy armour, Van Horstmann's, Sword of Justice, Shield of the Gorgon

306pts

Warrior Priest - Armour of Meteoric Iron, great weapon, Icon of Magnus. Leads the swordsmen. 144pts.

Level 2 Wizard, Rod of Power, Power Stone. 150pts.

Witch Hunter (just a captain really!) - Aldred's Casket of Sorcery, barded warhorse, full plate,. lance, shield. Leads the knights. 111pts

24 Swordsmen, full command. 169pts

Detachments - 10 Halberdiers (50pts) and 5 Archers (40pts)

16 Handgunners. 128pts

Detachment - 6 Free Company (30pts)

9 Knights of the Order of the Most Holy (lances), full command, Banner of the Daemonslayer. 297pts

2 units of 20 flagellants. 2 x 200pts.

20 Greatswords, full command. 230pts

Detachment - 10 halberdiers (50pts)

2 units of 5 pistoliers. 2 x 90pts.

Helstorm Rocket Launcher 115pts

Cannon 100pts.

Total - 2500

Note - I realise the war machines and greatswords aren't entirely in character but want them anyway. (first time for using either!) Some forced drafting from the local armies all in Sigmar's good name I feel! The arch lector isn't hugely kitted out as he already has a ward save. Sword of Justice bought with the last of the points, (as was a loose halberdier). Van Horstmann's to me represents him calling upon the might of Sigmar to beat the more powerful enemies!

No dispel scrolls is a risk but if i need it I have a 5/6 chance of 8 dispel dice (plus the effects of the much imporved casket), or a certain 7 dice. And of course 3 bound spells, possible casket spell and 4 (plus stored) dice in offense. A perfectly adequate magic phase I feel, considering only 1 character can't fight in hth.

Von Wibble
07-01-2007, 17:11
Sorry to bump this but does noone have any comments?

Makarion
07-01-2007, 19:30
Well, I'm hardly an expert, but let's see...


Rough idea is a balanced force that has a particular focus on the more holy elements within the characters

ArchLector - War Alter, heavy armour, Van Horstmann's, Sword of Justice

281pts

Warrior Priest - Armour of Meteoric Iron, great weapon, Icon of Magnus. Leads the swordsmen. 144pts.

Level 2 Wizard, Rod of Power, Power Stone. 150pts.

Witch Hunter (just a captain really!) - Aldred's Casket of Sorcery, barded warhorse, full plate,. lance, shield. Leads the knights. 111pts

24 Swordsmen, full command. 169pts

Detachments - 11 Halberdiers (55pts) and 5 Archers (40pts)

16 Handgunners. 128pts

Detachment - 10 Free Company (50pts)

9 Knights of the Order of the Most Holy (lances), full command, Banner of the Daemonslayer. 297pts

2 units of 20 flagellants. 2 x 200pts.

20 Greatswords, full command. 230pts

Detachment - 10 halberdiers (50pts)

2 units of 5 pistoliers. 2 x 90pts.

Helstorm Rocket Launcher 115pts

Cannon 100pts.

Total - 2500

Note - I realise the war machines and greatswords aren't entirely in character but want them anyway. (first time for using either!) Some forced drafting from the local armies all in Sigmar's good name I feel! The arch lector isn't hugely kitted out as he already has a ward save. Sword of Justice bought with the last of the points, (as was a loose halberdier). Van Horstmann's to me represents him calling upon the might of Sigmar to beat the more powerful enemies!

No dispel scrolls is a risk but if i need it I have a 5/6 chance of 8 dispel dice (plus the effects of the much imporved casket), or a certain 7 dice. And of course 3 bound spells, possible casket spell and 4 (plus stored) dice in offense. A perfectly adequate magic phase I feel, considering only 1 character can't fight in hth.

Swordsman and greatswords plus their detachments are designed to move forward if necessary therefore no handguns or crossbows. Archer detachment will move to march block and generally harrass therefore no huge need for size.

Possibility for changing the list - Pistoliers changed to 1 unit of 6. (72 points and a special slot saved). 1 halberdier removed from swordsman detachment.

Knights upgraded to Inner circle. 5 Archers added to swordsman detachment. Sword of Justice replaced with Sword of Power. Overall still 2500pts.

Any opinions on this change or any other aspects of the list?

Characters:

Arch Lector. Cool, and I've got the feeling we'll see plenty of him. Not only is he a novelty, he's actually half decent. Nots ure about the Sword of Justice though, he's only got 2 attacks outside of a challenge. Maybe Mace of Helstrom?

Warrior Priest. Excellent, wouldn't change much. Icon of Magnus may be overkill, but that really depends of what you expect to face. I tend to use fewer points on magic items, but it's not bad.

Wizard. I'd replace him with an extra warrior priest. His magic items are a crutch, since you still won't have enough power dice. And if you want a foil for the prayers, more prayers works just as well.

Witch Hunter. Nice touch! The casket is very thematic, but I wonder whether he's mobile enough to get to use it. Solo characters have limited survivability though, so I guess he'll have to stay as-is.

All in all a lot of points in characters though...


Units:

Swordsmen with detachments. Great, nothing to be chanced I think. Maybe not very Sigmarite, but it's an army - everyone needs a mainstay.

Handgunners. I'd use crossbows, for the witchhunter feel, but otherwise nothing wrong with them. Not sure on the free company detachments. Maybe replace 5 of them with more ranged combat?

Knights. Excellent. Tempting to use 2 units of 6 though, but I agree that you want a bigger block to make the banner worthwhile.

Flagellants. Of course. I agree with using no command in them.

Greatswords. As with the swordsmen, not very thematic - they are generally the personal guard of nobles, if I recall correctly? You badly need the block though, and stubborn is good. Maybe the 3rd warrior priest (that replaced the wizard) can go into a 30-man block of spearmen or halberds. I'm afraid that free company would die too fast as a mainstay unit to be a consideration.

Pistoliers. Nothing wrong here. Marchblockers are good, but depending on what you might face you could replace one of them with outriders.


War machines:

If you take them in a list like this, the rocket launcher is certainly appropriate. Talk about a "let's all pray" unit ;). And the cannon is always good, of course. You could consider more crossbows instead, but that's up to you.


Good luck!

lack0fbettername
07-01-2007, 20:57
1 Small error.

-Your unit of 16 handgunners can only have a detachemnt of 1/2 its size, your free company detachment with it is too big.

ffarsight
08-01-2007, 15:54
HI, i really like your list, i have myself a army list almost like this,
I would like to ask 2 questions, if somebody could help me...

1- the spell that the war altar gives us is one of our choice and it remains the same for the battle?
2 - can the arch lector give 2 RIP prayers for the same character and be comulative? or the first is dissipated when the second is cast?

Thanks....

Von Wibble
08-01-2007, 16:19
Spell of the war alter is any of your choice from the light lore. It can change from turn to turn i believe.

Not sure about the arch lector with 2 prayers - I would assume cumulative as long as they aren't remains in play (which would instantly stop when you attempt the second prayer of course).

Quite right about the free company. Looks like I have 10 pts to spend. I will edit the OP to change the list here.

Reasoning behind the sword of justice - 1) I just happened to have a few pointsd left over, 2) Rerolls rather than stat increases will I feel be of more use to me as the priest will always challenge. He can take most unit champions fine as he is at worst 4 to hit, 4 to wound with reroll, (and better vs chaos knights for example), and against hard characters, he has the bonus of them having effectively less A that he has W!

Reasoning behind the handgunner detachment choice - Crossbows and handguns not taken because they will have trouble getting in a positino to fire. 6 free company for just 30pts can combine with stand and shoot to realy dissuade the handgunners from being cheap victory points to skirmishers, fliers, fast cavalry, and cheap knights. I see handguns as being in character btw because witch hunters/ holy men = cromwell = 17th century army with guns. Very loose argument as this of course implies pikes should also be present. Also I have handgun models but not crossbows.

Wizard not priest - I disagree about the lack of power dice. In a lot of magic phases I may well end up with redundant dispel dice (usually first turn where useful spells aren't necessarily in range). These effectively are added to my power dice pool. Against magic heavy armies the wizard gives huge magic defense through the rod - far more than 1 extra for a priest. Against Dwarfs or Khorne I get extra power dice - the wizard effectively gives me 3 (more if I want to gamble) and a power stone, plus some variety in my spells, compared to 1 bound spell at a power of 4. Without the wizard my prayers are likely to be dispelled as I have 4 of them - probably 1 gets through vs an army with 6-7 dispel dice + 2 scrolls.

I agree the casket is better on a mobile unit. But its such a nice item that fits the theme that I want it...and it could encourage me to use the knights in suicidal KILL THE WITCH fashion.....

List edited - free company reduced to 6 men. Halberdiers reduced to 10 men. Shield of the gorgon added to the arch lector (my favourite combo in 6th with elector count) - most enemies now get at best 1 attack against him in challenges. Though he is now above 300 pts!

Makarion
08-01-2007, 17:02
Cromwell may have been called the saviour by some people, but a saint he wasn't. Ask anyone in the UK outside of England, and a good part of the English, too. It's a bit like calling Gilbert de Clare senior ("Strongbow") a humanitarian.

Otherwise, a solid list. As to the wizard, I recognize your reasoning, and if you really face that many dispel dice I can see your point. As usual, it all depends on what you generally face.

ffarsight
09-01-2007, 08:30
my list is: 2000 points

Arch lector - war altar, danw armour , enchanted shield, van. horstmans, sword of battle.

W.P. - Barded warhorse, H.A. shield, sword of might, orb of thunder. -- goes with Great hammers

W.p. - G.W. armour of M.Iron. ring of doomfire(i think this is the one) ---goes with Swordsmen

Battle Wizard - level 2 Power stone -- goes with Great hammers (teuton)--still not sure of what lore to take but i think i need one with great deal of damage , i will go with fire. (help?)


Core:

- 24 Swordsman full command.
Det - 9 free company

- 15 Flagellants

- 5 - knights

- 5 - knights

Special :

- 20 - Great Hammers, full command.
Det. - 9 halberdiers

- 1 - Great Cannon

- 1 - Great Cannon

- 5 - Pistoliers

Rare:

-1 - Helblaster


- the tactic is to hold the center with Swordsmen and Great hammers. Flagellants to pull down a big unit (pretty sure +- 5 can last) so that it can be charged and flanked either by knights and war altar or the rank units. 2 cannons for big threats and machines, pistolers for fast cavalry. I´m not taking handgunners because don´t have the points left, but i have the orb of thunder for those pesky flyers and dragons, for 2 and 3 turn, this will surprise them and hoppely will get it charged. detach. will work in 3x3 in the midlle of units so that can´t be charged. i only need to take the ranks out.
I got 4 power dice, 7 dispel dice and 7 bound spells - soo its a good magic phase without too much worry for miscast. Don´t think its needed dispel scrolls, do you?
Do you really think i should put some handgunners? if so, i have to take something out, what should it be?

Thanks for your advice.

Von Wibble
09-01-2007, 16:34
Cromwell was known as a man who acted on providence - needing a sign from god before doing anything. He was very religious.

Additionally I should have said Cromwellian rather than Cromwell. During the Interregnum there were a number of religious cults who sprang up (a la flagellants) into prominence. I see this army as an example of one led by such a puritanical (and surely witch hunter = puritan) character as Praisegod Barebones - a name so good that my archlector has got to have it. Whats the german translation?

ffarsight - you cant have enchanted shield with other magic armour now. Largely to stop combos such as yours I suppose (for whatever reason).

Warrior priests look good -I like the idea of lots of bound spells...

Characterful lore is light. But imo you can't go wrong with metal, heavens, life shadow or beasts. I don't really think much of death or fire. Keep it cheap though as you are casting on 3 dice (so power 11 or above is no go really)

Potential problem is that if you want to outshoot an enemy 2 cannons and a helblaster won't do. The Helblaster's range is too short and cannons are better off sniping horrible things that empire don't like taking on in combat (shaggoths, treemen) - they don't do so well vs infantry. Your army therefore has to be prepared to go forward. Therefore I recommend crossbows rather than handguns. I would lose 1 knight unit and the orb to get 20.

As an aside - needing long lange infantry killing was my reason for the helstorm rather than a helblaster.

Of course, if you are fine with advanceing on an army leave it as is. Flagellants and great hammers can take a counterpunch without problems and the archlector is fine going forward.

Von Wibble
06-02-2007, 20:22
OK, 1 change to this is that I have went for a helblaster not a helstorm. Chaos players please give me a list and tactics that give a 50/50 game (or better)

dominic_carrillo
06-02-2007, 21:15
your playing a witchhunter/religious fanatic army with no flagellants?

tyrion11482
07-02-2007, 04:10
i would love to is it 2000 or 2500??

you also have 2 magic armors unless dawn armor has special rules...

kyussinchains
07-02-2007, 13:21
a MSU army would perform well against this army, slaanesh works well for speed, a sorcerer with daemonsword would be great against VHS, after all, you dont swap bonuses from weapons, so he'd effectively be immune.

I'd take a boobworm exalted with berserker sword to deal with your fast cavalry units, he can usually wipe them out in a single turn, and if he draws fire, other units arent getting shot.

I'd probably use screamers, furies and mounted daemonettes (taking an undivided exalted general of course) as well as lots of mounted marauders with flails and musicians, 4 units of hounds work well for blocking charges/marches and getting flank charges set up, they also draw shooting.

if he parks a unit of hounds in front of your knights at a 45 degree angle, you can either shoot them (losing a turn's movement in the process) charge them (exposing your flank) or do nothing, in which case 30 points of hounds has stopped you in your tracks.

I'd take a couple of blocks of marauders for static CR and maybe some slaanesh spawn to present further threats, they are pretty quick, and can make a mess of many detachments.

I dont have my books with me at work, I'll sit down and think about it some more later. I honestly think your opponent isnt as advanced as you tactically, your army is a good one, but it's far from unbeatable!

Von Wibble
07-02-2007, 16:40
tyrion you read the wrong list. Mine is the OP! Same to you domenico -I have 2 units of flagellants.

kyussinchains - that looks like the kind of list that is closest to the one I'd dread. I agree that the Daemon sword is a nice counter to vhs. Dammit. Of course you can't do that if you have the undivided general mentioned below... Slaaneshi spawn are very good also - they are probably shooting target no.4...

An exalted champ mounted on anything costs more than 2 pistolier units - so if I flee you achieve nothing and I effectively get a points advantage. I would shoot him to be fair - he is dangerous and you haven't exactly given me other options for cannon practice. Btw a stand and shoot from 5 pistoliers doesn't need to be that lucky to cause a wound or 2, and you can't flee charges, so there are inherent dangers in your tactics. Pistoliers could be very effective bait to him. Definately worth taking though, and my opponent usually does...

The hound tactic - exactly what I do with my pistoliers to chaos knights. Difference is that the chaos knights are invariably on a flank so by charging they end up off the table and waste 2 turns for 90vps. My knights are usually in the centre. Now I believe if the hounds block LOS I can declare charges into units behind them if you flee. If there are no units behind them than your own troops are wasting time and asking to be shot. But if your hounds are screening units they are stopping your own units from charging in and just giving me free shooting phases??? Am I being dense here or am I missing the finer points of chaos hound use?

Tbh I tend to use my army quite aggressively anyway. Flagellants and greatswords can beat any unit you have listed quite easily in combat even if charged first (exception - mounted daemonettes, so I'll try to match knights up aginst them) and this tactic means the influence of flyers is lowered, and that I can stop you from picking your fights as easily by cramping your space. Once that is achieved I can stand and shoot. Not before - that is asking to have all my units fighting the wrong battles. Seperately, most chaos generals don't expect empire to come at them!!

Just to add a disclaimer here - I'm not saying that the tactics I have just mentioned will work all the time. I am suggesting what I would do if you threw certain units/ tactics at me.

kyussinchains
07-02-2007, 18:58
basically, the army I suggested is fast enough to get around any units of hounds, obviously I would never flee with them if the knights charged as the knights would expose their flanks by wheeling.

bear in mind the exalted hero on the steed can be used for more than chasing pistoliers around! after he's dealt with them he can get stuck into other units, he gets enough attacks that he can often take on smaller units by himself.

why couldnt I use the daemonsword sorcerer with an undivided exalted champion? they have the same LD after all.

I think the two armies are fairly balanced, the chaos have the speed to deal with the empire's shooting and get round the flanks of the block units, they can deal with the knights by feeding them cheap units of hounds, the characters are good for taking on knights and foot troops.

if the empire gets a good start however, a few lucky rounds of shooting and they can get the chaos on the back foot.

tyrion11482
08-02-2007, 00:57
another easy trick is to just pull Khazarak out no one like armies that dont set up any troops chars or anything else .........

Personaly i would just play my Tzeentch army dragon lord staff eye sheild flail

fuires screamers knights warriors some maurder horse men 2 more tzzentch heros and a hellcannon just for kicks

Iziuth
08-02-2007, 07:59
The army you have looks solid, but by no means unbeatable. I'll try to make a list of 2500 pts for your opponent and post it by the end of the day.

Von Wibble
08-02-2007, 10:42
basically, the army I suggested is fast enough to get around any units of hounds, obviously I would never flee with them if the knights charged as the knights would expose their flanks by wheeling.

bear in mind the exalted hero on the steed can be used for more than chasing pistoliers around! after he's dealt with them he can get stuck into other units, he gets enough attacks that he can often take on smaller units by himself.

why couldnt I use the daemonsword sorcerer with an undivided exalted champion? they have the same LD after all.

I think the two armies are fairly balanced, the chaos have the speed to deal with the empire's shooting and get round the flanks of the block units, they can deal with the knights by feeding them cheap units of hounds, the characters are good for taking on knights and foot troops.

if the empire gets a good start however, a few lucky rounds of shooting and they can get the chaos on the back foot.

I agree. I'll suggest your tactics to my opponent. When you said undivided general I assumed a lord and therefore no sorceror lord since that would be illegal. Exalted, aspiring are just confusing to me - whats wrong with just calling them heroes and lords?

As to getting round flanks - good luck with 2 units of flagellants, 2 units of pistoliers and detachments stopping you. I feel the army doesn't need to rely on lucky shooting to put chaos on the back foot - some good manouvring can do the job too. Being the aggressive defensive army tends to give an automatic advantage in this field - as long as you aren't dwarfs.

tyrion, in a mortal army how are you going to use Khazrak exactly? I have faced Tzeentch armies like the one you are suggesting btw - I tend to make sure green, blue and indigo fire aren't cast and let the rest through. Then you have spent a lot of points for effectively a little shooting.

kyussinchains
08-02-2007, 11:35
well, if the flagellents are deployed on the extreme flanks, they can be ignored, as daemonettes are fast cavalry, they can snake between your units and get behind your army very quickly, they easily outpace and outclass pistoliers in HTH too.