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DarkLord Of Naggaroth
08-01-2007, 16:33
just a quick question.
Whats the difference between hob gobbos or normal ones?

Commodus Leitdorf
08-01-2007, 16:36
+1 WS if I recall correctly...

DarkLord Of Naggaroth
08-01-2007, 17:07
So are they included in the O&G army?

Griefbringer
08-01-2007, 17:07
Gaming-wise or background-wise?

Edit: Chaos dwarf armies can take hobgoblins (plus there is a hobgoblin RoR for the DoW).

Shadowseer Crofty
08-01-2007, 17:13
background wise, hobgoblins are hated by all other greenskins. chaos dwarfs enslave greenskins. at some point in history, the greenskins rebelled (incidently that was how black orks escaped zharr naggurund and joined orc tribes). during this rebellion, all of the hobgoblins betrayed the rest of the greenskins and fought with the chaos dwarfs, stopping all of the greenskins escaping. the chaos dwarf reward them for this, they are now the slavedrivers and fight in the chaos dwarf armys, either in infantry or wolf mounted regiments, regiments with poisoned weapons called sneaky gits, or crewing stone throwers. i think they are taller than normal gobbos and thinner and less muscular than orcs. game terms i think theyre cheaper, at 2 points apiece IIRC.

DarkLord Of Naggaroth
08-01-2007, 18:12
okay thanks

Hobgoblyn
08-01-2007, 19:39
The thing with the Chaos Dwarves was pretty recently compared to the break between Hobgoblins and the other greenskins.

Hobgoblins physically and mentally are basically an entire race of green-skinned human rogues. They are quick, cunning, sneaky and trecherous including with their own. So this means when they hit the battlefield they are subject to animosity (like other greenskins) and a -1Ld compared to humans and orcs. Also traditionally get a -1I because well... none of them wants to be the first one to jump on the enemy's blade, but hopefully this will be removed.
They probably played the role of scouts, assasins and tacticians for the Orcs & Goblins when they were all one kind. But at some point there was a fairly 'clean' break between the Orc way of doing things and the Hobgoblin way. The Orcs went west, the Hobgoblins went east.
While the Orcs took on the look and feel of Germanic barbarian tribes, the Hobgoblins became the Mongolian (as well as Manchurian, Siberian, etc.) barbarian tribes.
Like Goblins they ride wolves and overwhelm opponets with large numbers of low-armored unit. While the Orcs & Goblins tear at the Empire and other 'European' human areas, the Hobgoblins raid Cathay and Nippon primarilly.

Now, after all this was well established the Chaos Dwarves (whose land lies between the two great empires) began to make slaves of the greenskins. They bred the Orcs (yes, it doesn't make sense with the Orc fungus reproduction method) into being the big, strong, brutish Black Orcs who they made the leaders of their slaves.
The Black Orcs lead a rebellion, the Hobgoblins had to choose between the Chaos Dwarves and the Black Orcs and decided to sell out the Orcs and become the new master slaves of the Chaos Dwarves.

So you kind of have at least two relatively distinct kinds of Hobgoblin. You have the mongolian-types who raid Cathay (represented by Ghazack Khan and Oglah Khan) and you have the Darklands Hobgoblins (represented by Sneaky Gitz, Hobgoblin Bolt Throwers and old Chaos Dwarf Hobgoblin Wolfriders). Although I for one think it is fair to say that if you were building an army themed on Hobgoblins, that they could be mixed together similar to Night Goblins, Black Orcs and Forest Goblins.

Anyway, so Goblins=Halfling-sized, Hobgoblins=Human-sized
Goblins= Work for Orcs, Hogoblins=Work for CD or themselves
Goblins=Short bows, Hobgoblins=Normal bows
Goblins=Make up their own random powerful weapons, Hobgoblins=Copy others powerful weapons
Goblins=Fun-loving, Hobgoblins=Trecherous
Goblins=Enemies of the Empire, Hobgoblins=Enemies of Cathay
Goblins=Elves!! RUN!!, Hobgoblin=Elves? I call dibs on the pretty sword!

But, to Dwarves (non-Chaos variety) the only difference that is important is what Leitdorf pointed out.

Hobgoblin Wolfriders can be found in RoR. If you want to do footmen, take goblins and add +1WS & I for 1 pt/model (similar to Night Goblins, but better Ld and no 'hate dwarves'). Commanders and such are harder. But they should have to pay for their equipment halfway between Goblins & Orcs rounded up, but they get to take normal bows instead of short for 2pts. Commanders and such could be the same price as NG's but with more expensive equipment.

Personally I am working from humans which opens up some more appropriate unit types, but it doesn't help you when trying to work them into an O&G army.

Shadowseer Crofty
09-01-2007, 15:46
Hobgoblin Wolfriders can be found in RoR. If you want to do footmen, take goblins and add +1WS & I for 1 pt/model (similar to Night Goblins, but better Ld and no 'hate dwarves'). Commanders and such are harder. But they should have to pay for their equipment halfway between Goblins & Orcs rounded up, but they get to take normal bows instead of short for 2pts. Commanders and such could be the same price as NG's but with more expensive equipment.

theres hobgoblins on foot with the option of wolves in the chaos dwarf army (cant be compulsory core) list, as well as hobgoblin sneaky gits and hobgoblin bolt or stone (cant remember which) throwers. theres also a hobgoblin hero, which cant be your general. for a hobgoblin army, just ignore the cant be genral/compulsory core choice and dont use chaos dwarfs. you dont get a lord or rare choice though, so you might want some dogs of war (ogres or gnoblars spring to mind, them living in the same area)

Gen.Steiner
09-01-2007, 16:07
There is the small matter of the Hobgoblin Khanate which stretches from the Chaos Dwarf lands to far Cathay...

Hobgoblyn
09-01-2007, 16:18
There is the small matter of the Hobgoblin Khanate which stretches from the Chaos Dwarf lands to far Cathay...

Yep, pointed that out in my post...

I wouldn't think it very fair to use the stats given in the CD book for Hobgoblins now that Goblins have increased in point-value. They would now be the same price as Goblins, but with +1 WS and no Fear Elves penalty...

That could work in an army where they are considered to be non-compulsary core units, but if you are using them on their own its not really very fair. Again, that's why I'd say raise their cost by +1pt and give them the +1I that makes fluff sense anyway. At that point they'd effectively be humans for -1pt with -1Ld and Animosity.

Orcboy_Phil
09-01-2007, 16:28
There is the small matter of the Hobgoblin Khanate which stretches from the Chaos Dwarf lands to far Cathay...

Ummm, any hobgoblins living there would get eaten, Thats where the ogres live.

Gen.Steiner
09-01-2007, 16:41
Ummm, any hobgoblins living there would get eaten, Thats where the ogres live.

Nnnnooo, the Ogres live in the mountains east of Kislev, south of the Chaos Dwarves, north-east of the Empire and north of the Worlds' Edge Mountains.

The Khanate encompasses the vast plains between the Chaos Dwarves, Ogres, Empire, etc etc, to Cathay. 's probably the biggest empire in the Warhammer World. :D

Hobgoblyn
09-01-2007, 18:14
Well, more important it doesn't really matter. Everywhere they live they share the space with someone else and come into conflict.

Sure, some get eaten by Ogres, others overwhelm and kill the Ogres, some become slaves or mercenaries for the Ogres.

In the area Steiner refers to there are also Chaos barbarians, so the hobgoblins fight with them.

Over in the Far East we know there is a constant assualt of Hobgoblins on Cathay. From Oglah Khan's background we also know there are Hobgoblins who work for Cathay (Oglah Khan had the option of switching sides).

And then there are Hobgoblins in the Darklands who more or less accept Chaos Dwarves as their lords even if they aren't directly enslaved.

So, all in all they span a very huge territory. Not quite as big as humans, but pretty respectable in size compared to a lot of races.

Weregerbil
09-01-2007, 18:15
They have bolt throwers.

The SkaerKrow
09-01-2007, 18:38
I wouldn't think it very fair to use the stats given in the CD book for Hobgoblins now that Goblins have increased in point-value. They would now be the same price as Goblins, but with +1 WS and no Fear Elves penalty...

Goblins come with Light Armor, Hobgoblins come with sweet FA. So yes, the points value holds up. The Chaos Dwarf book isn't used at this point anyway, but their Ravening Hordes list is considered current (even though Sneaky Gits still have that Lap Around ability of theirs).

Hobgoblyn
10-01-2007, 06:59
Well, not exactly...

Lets see..
Goblins for 2 points (+1 for compulsary light armor)
M-4 WS-2 BS-3 S-3 T-3 I-2 A-1 Ld-6
+Fear Elves
Can take Spears, hand weapons, or short bows

Night Goblins for 2 points (+1 for compulsary shield or short bow)
Goblin stats with +1 I, -1 Ld (I was wrong, I thought they got a WS bonus)
+Hate Dwarves
Can get Fanatics and Netters
Can't take light armor, gets the other above options

Hobgoblins (by the Ravening Hordes list) for 2 points
Goblin stats +1WS and no Fear Elves
May take bow, light armor, shield and wolves. To note they strangely don't have the option to take spears or a second hand weapon in the list (wolf riders with no spears?)

Now, one could well rationalize with the Night Elves that the drop in Ld from 6 to 5 hurts very, very, very badly and makes up for the bonus a lot more than the +1I.
But, sans missing equipment options, Hobgoblins really are a better deal. They should be a bit more expensive than the Goblins once you give them the missing equipment options.

But then human troops who have a +1 WS, +1 I, +1Ld, no fear elves and no animosity compared to Goblins are only 4 points with compulsary equipment to bulk up points.
And since we don't have half points, Hobgoblins should be 3pts + equipment, but that's a bit high once you consider the penalty to I, Ld as well as animosity. The solution seems to be to give regular foot-sloggers the +1I (Ld or animosity disapearing would seem weird).

But, my opinion on that matter aside, Oglah Khan and Ghazack give you stats for Hobgoblin commanders and leaders (though point cost is difficult to calculate)
Hero
M-4 WS-5 BS-4 S-4 T-4 W-2 I-3 A-3 Ld-7
95pts while using light armor, shield, spear, bow, wolf and Pelt of Wulfag
No animosity (does he Quell it and so his unit doesn't have it? It isn't clear)
Lord
M-4 WS-7 BS-6 S-4 T-4 W-3 I-6 A-4 Ld-9
Quell Animosity
350pts while on Warkhan with heavy armor, bow, shield, red scimitar & demonhead helmet

Notice that the Lord is 2 steps above the Hero (he takes up both a Lord and a Hero slot, but that might be because of the warkhan), so there is likely a step in between here and the Lord actually has human-level Initiative.
More over, and very important, notice that unlike Orcs & Goblins, Hobgoblins get better at shooting as they increase in rank.

Anyhow, it is hard to figure out what the proper point value costs are for the two heroes.