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View Full Version : Killing Blow on a war machine.



Makaber
09-01-2007, 01:09
Allright, hear me out here. This is very silly and I'm not being serious at all.

There are two hindrances in the rules that prevent you from Killing Blow outright destroying a war machine. First and foremost, a war machine has too many wounds. Secondly, you can't actually attack it in close combat, since you fight the crew.

However, certain Wood Elves can get killing blow with their bows. And Bronzinos Galopping Guns, being very light cannons, only have two wounds a piece.

:D

TKitch
09-01-2007, 01:30
and the question being?

Makaber
09-01-2007, 01:37
It's not a question. It's just a stupid little rules anormality I find amusing. But if you absolutely want to: "Is the scenario legal as per the rules?".

JonnyTHM
09-01-2007, 01:54
Yes it is. There is no prohibition against killing blowing warmachines.

This would for instance stop a Bretonnian knight from being able to killingblow a hell cannon were such a rule to exist. If you'd like a nice long debate on the subject, you can check that one, but last I checked it is fully possible to do so under the new rules.

Highborn
09-01-2007, 01:55
Interesting. However, isn't a war machines US equal to the number of crew remaining? ie, a War Machine itself has no US and therefore would not be affected by Killing Blow which requires the target to be US 1 or US 2?

JonnyTHM
09-01-2007, 02:16
For the purposes of killing blow you would never use the US of a unit, you use it only of the single model. It would therefore require you to evaluate the unit strength of the model hit. If indeed there is a warmachine with only 1 or 2 wounds, you need only to find a way to determine its unit strength.

I should admit, my original 'all clear' does have one caveat, you need to convince everyone that that warmachine in particular has a unit strength. (as opposed to the hellcannon which is an easier thing to convince me of as it bites back).

NakedFisherman
09-01-2007, 03:07
What does the number of wounds have to do with anything?

Highborn
09-01-2007, 03:25
Nothing if it's a war machine. I think the rules for monsters confuse people.

Griefbringer
09-01-2007, 09:08
For the Unit Strenght of a war machine, see page 71.

Notice that Killing Blow does not require target to have US 1 or US 2 - it is valid against all targets with "US 2 or less". Therefore, it is effective against targets with US 2, US 1, US ½, US 0, US -1, US -2 and so on.

Alathir
09-01-2007, 09:09
So it is fully legal for a bretonnian character with the virtue that allows him killing blow against large targets to killing blow a steam tank?

I sure hope so.

Khorneflakes
09-01-2007, 12:01
it is. a stank is a large target and the virtue gives killing blow vs large targets

sralialo
09-01-2007, 12:21
That sounds fun, for the bret player...

Jedi152
09-01-2007, 12:40
Think of poking the vital pin that holds the hull together out with the tip of his lance.

:D

T10
09-01-2007, 13:15
War machine uits have the US of the Crew, which would indicate that the artillery piece has no US. Wether this is to be taken as US 0 or US NULL, I don't know.

Makaber: I guess we'll burn that bridge when we reach it. :)

-T10

Festus
09-01-2007, 13:45
Hi

War Machines generally do not have US, hence are not able to be KB'ed.

Festus

Griefbringer
09-01-2007, 15:14
War machine uits have the US of the Crew, which would indicate that the artillery piece has no US.

Actually, by RAW, the US given in the table on page 71 is per model in a unit.

[Warning: impending RAW sillyness]

So by RAW it could be eg. claimed that a unit consisting of an ogre, two gnoblars and cannon would have US of 3 (Ogre) + 2 x 1 (gnoblars) + 3 (number of crew remaining, for the cannon) = 8.

Yes, I think this is extremely silly, and I would personally prefer a common sense solution of making the war machine itself US 0.

NakedFisherman
09-01-2007, 17:56
War Machines generally do not have US, hence are not able to be KB'ed.

I don't see how you came to this conclusion.

Festus
09-01-2007, 18:10
Hi

We can safely ignore the sillyness of giving a WM itself a US equal to that of the available crew. Everybody will understand that this is:
* A Warmachine UNIT has an US of equal to that of its crew*
and you won't simply double the US of a Warmachine unit...

I am not sure that the Warmachine itself is a model at all. That is: Model for purposes of US, charge, etc.

Please reread the rules for Warmachines, p.84, which only speak of the crew as models :confused:

I can only advise on taking everything said about Warmachines in the BRB with a grain/pinch/bucketload of aslte, as much is a sloppy copy-paste job...

Festus

Griefbringer
09-01-2007, 18:32
Please reread the rules for Warmachines, p.84, which only speak of the crew as models :confused:


Interestingly enough, in a section called "Models". However, I also found the following interesting pieces from the rulebook, enjoy:

Page 5: "...but a single, powerful model such as ... a war machine and its crew..."

Page 6: "Normally, war machines and their crew forms a unit of three or more models."

I will go and sprinkle some more salt on my rulebook now. :evilgrin:

Festus
09-01-2007, 18:41
Hi

Page 5: "...but a single, powerful model such as ... a war machine and its crew..."
Where do you find that on p.5???


Page 6: "Normally, war machines and their crew forms a unit of three or more models."
For the sake of the argument only: This still does not say that WMs are models, or does it? It says that Warmachines are parts of units, which themselves include models - here: the crew. :angel:

DeathlessDraich
09-01-2007, 18:59
Page 5: "...but a single, powerful model such as ... a war machine and its crew..."


Page 5? It's definitely not there.

It does not explicitly state that the machine is a separate model The closest suggestion is:
"pg84 ...the crew are based separately unlike the model of a chariot"


However comparing with the chariot and monster rules, these are entitled

"The Chariot model" and "The Monster model" whereas under machines it states "Models"

further confirmation comes from:

"pg 84 These models (the crew) must be kept within 1" of their machine"

This shows that the warmachine is a multi-model unit

Griefbringer
10-01-2007, 07:44
Ooops, silly me, I put the wrong pages - they should not have been 5 and 6, but 6 and 7 (respectively). Apologies!

NakedFisherman
10-01-2007, 08:17
I am not sure that the Warmachine itself is a model at all. That is: Model for purposes of US, charge, etc.

Of course it is. It can be charged, shot at, etc. I would find it hard to believe a war machine would be a model for the purpose of being shot at, but cease to be a model when a Killing Blow hits it.

T10
10-01-2007, 08:34
Then there is the issue of wether a S3 Killing Blow attack can even affect a T7 model.

-T10

NakedFisherman
10-01-2007, 09:14
Then there is the issue of wether a S3 Killing Blow attack can even affect a T7 model.

On a roll of 6, the model is killed outright, no?

Let's say an Ogre Tyrant with the Mawseeker Big Name has Toothcracker cast on him. Throt the Unclean is fighting the Tyrant and some Night Goblins. The Night Goblins throw their nets on Throt, and he becomes S3. I'd say he can still Killing Blow the Ogre Tyrant, no?

Griefbringer
10-01-2007, 09:20
Then there is the issue of wether a S3 Killing Blow attack can even affect a T7 model.


I would say that, by RAW, that should be allowed - as the Killing Blow rules say that it is enough to just roll 6 on a "to wound" roll, no requirement is given of actually needing to be able to wound something with that roll.

And if I have read the book correctly, you make a "to wound" roll for every hit (barring auto-wounding ones), regardless of whether they can actually damage a target.

Negativemoney
10-01-2007, 12:00
On a roll of 6, the model is killed outright, no?

Let's say an Ogre Tyrant with the Mawseeker Big Name has Toothcracker cast on him. Throt the Unclean is fighting the Tyrant and some Night Goblins. The Night Goblins throw their nets on Throt, and he becomes S3. I'd say he can still Killing Blow the Ogre Tyrant, no?

Unless Throt can KB models with US>2 he still will not be able to.

EvC
10-01-2007, 12:18
I would say that, by RAW, that should be allowed - as the Killing Blow rules say that it is enough to just roll 6 on a "to wound" roll, no requirement is given of actually needing to be able to wound something with that roll.

Exactly- since I recall it says you cannot poison something if you need more than 6 to hit, I'm sure it would also make a similar ruling for Killing Blow if it existed. It doesn't, so it doesn't...

And yes Negativemoney, Throt can indeed KB an Ogre-sized model- that's why NF specifically chose him :)

damiengore
10-01-2007, 14:38
A chariot has a US of 4 so can't be KB'd, I assume a ST has a US of 10 and therefore cannot be KB'd either. In terms of a cannon or bolt thrower or the like I would tend to use the wounds as US for purposes of KB. It's not RAW but it makes sense, anyways the character with KB would in all likelyhood obliterate the warmachine crew and destroy the weapon in hth. It's only ranged KB that get's wierd in that regard. Still a lousy arrow shouldn't be able to wreck a cannon.

Negativemoney
10-01-2007, 16:09
There is also a strong relationship between base sizes and US. This can be found in the section of rule book dealing with model types and US. The majority of the warmachines are not mounted on 20mm 25mm or Cav Bases, actualy I can't recall any that are. Since there is no catagory for warmachines present there but there are descriptions of other game pieces that have similar traits to a war machine (base size, number of wounds, etc.) I would say (and I am sure if it go FAQed) that you should treat warmachines like Monsters for the purposes of US. Rember that since war machines don't technicaly take part in combat they will not add thier US to that combat.

Griefbringer
11-01-2007, 08:18
Negativemoney, please check out the US chart on page 71 of the BRB.

It has a separate entry for war machines, which is definitely different from that of the monsters.