PDA

View Full Version : 1 Spear block + supportive shooting (2000 pts)



Noldo
09-01-2007, 14:51
This army is contructed around two battle combinations. Ideally the two "blocks" of units should be able to support each other, preferably keeping the more vulnerable of them out of the harms way.

Here is the composition of the blocks:

Main Battle Block
Main Battle Unit:
- Spearelves + Commander on steed (BSB)
Support units:
- Commander in Chariot
- White Lions

Support Block
- Archmage on steed + Sea Guard
- Repeater Bolt Thrower
- Archers

Free supporters
- Dragon Princes (secure the flank where Support Block is located)
- Shadow Warriors (marchblocking, war machine hunting)
- Great Eagle (marchblocking, war machine hunting)

Is the Main Battle Unit feasible enough to get into the combat I want them to get?

Here is the detailed army list:
Characters
Nathaniel, Arcmage (Elven Steed, Barding, 4th level, Starwood Staff, Dispell Scroll, Guardian Phoenix, Lore of Heavens) (366 pt)
Tristram, Commander (Pure of Hearth, Lion Guard, Heavy Armor, Elven Steed, Barding, BSB) (161 pt)
Li'Naer, Commander (Tiranoc Chariot, Reaver Bow, Enchanted Shield, Heavy Armor, Lance) (213 pt)

Core
Lothern Sea Guard x15 (Shield) (240 pt) (Deployed in two ranks, 10 in first rank, 5 in second +Nathaniel)
Spear Elves x22 (Standard bearer, Champion) (266 pt) (Deployed in 4 ranks of 6, including Tristram)
Archers x10 (120 pt)

Special
Dragon Princes x5 (Standard Bearer, Champion, Banner of Sorcery) (216 pt)
Shadow Warriors x5 (75 pt)
White Lions x12 (Champion) (170 pt)

Rare
Repeater Bolt Thrower (100 pt)
Great Eagle (50 pt)

Number of models: 74
Number of Units: 9
Power Dice: 7-9
Dispel Dice: 4 + 1 Scroll
Total Points: 1942

What should I do with remaining points?
- Remove Great Eagle and add another RBT?
- Add Second Great Eagle?
- Add few standards or champions to the units?
- Give Blessed Tome to White Lions champion?
- Give War Banner to the Spearelves?
- Something totally else?

2thesword
10-01-2007, 05:04
Hi Noldo, I'm only fairly new to HE's myself, but from my limited experience (and from what I've gathered reading a lot of the posts here and at Asur)

Generally don't put characters in chariots - makes them a lot easier to target. Also, the lion guard is wasted on a commander in a chariot - he doesn't make the spear unit stubborn unless he is with them.

also, you don't seem to have enough damage-causing units in the main battle block. Spear elves are largely defensive & S3, T3 5+ save, whilst your lions go last and have 6+ armour... unless you can really reduce the opponents strength before close combat your guys will get munched.



Most people seem to be against Sea Guard (too expensive, and very difficult to get their shooting and spear-block capabilities to work well together). I tried them in one game cause I thought that they would work well... I ended up with a very expensive unit of archers, most of whom couldn't shoot (back ranks)

vorac
10-01-2007, 06:47
ok i'm going to offer some advice, you may take it or leave it.

first if your taking an archmage then you want to maximize on the magic phase otherwise he will never be worth his points, i would take a second mage instead of the commander in the chariot, give your archmage the seer skill and the staff of solidity to help with miscasts, fiorget the ward save and 2 dispelscrolls, on the mage give him the ring of fury and a dispel scroll. give your bsb the ring of corin and all the other equipement you wanted.this will give you most likely magical superiority which is what HE are good at.

Units: Drop those sea guard they are really not worth their points, keep the whitelions but increase their size, give them a full command and the lionstandard which is fluffy and will help if they lose to fear causing enemies who outnumber them.Buy some silver helms as a support unit, get some swordmasters if you can with the banner of sorcery and give the dragon princes the ellyrian banner, no one expects a flank charge through terrain at 18 inches.never ever take elven archers thats 120 easy vp for your enemy get another block of spearelves instead and either take 2 boltthrowers or 2 great eagles but never 1 of each because both are easily picked off.i'd also keep the chariot without the character in it.

Catferret
10-01-2007, 07:16
I agree with everything Vorac has said. Except the part about people not expecting Dragon Princes to charge 18" through woods. Anybody facing a HE army containing Dragon Princes knows they have the Banner of Ellyrion. It's one of those "no-brainer" choices.

Maximise your army choices. Take lots of Mages or none. 2 Bolt Throwers (or none... Actually take as many Bolt Throwers as you can afford!) 2 Great Eagles or none. Drop the Sea Guard for either Spearmen or Archers. They are too expensive to make their flexibility worthwhile.

vorac
10-01-2007, 07:20
you are right about the nobrainer part but even if you don't buy the banner it can be fun to toy with someone by placing a spearelf unit hugging a wood and the dragon prices behind the woods :)

Jester007
11-01-2007, 04:27
Why does everyone want to put their BSB on a mount in the middle of an infantry unit? Are you asking for a failed "look out sir" role and having the guy end up dying? There's a 100 VP swing in addition to loosing the character.

Don't get me wrong, I think the BSB is a good idea. It's bad enough that guys can single him out in HtH. Don't give that option to your opponent for shooting.

If you're gonna have one chariot, may as well have two. Give something else for your enemy to think on. I find that just one chariot does not cut it due to S7+ destroying on impact. I would drop seaguard and archers. Get a unit of Silver Helms and another spearmen unit. Along with dropping the Commander on chariot and replacing with Lvl 2, that should be about the same point cost.

I have never found great eagles good for anything except for march blocking and getting shot. You have the Shadow Warriors deployed to march block (like you said), so maybe drop eagle and get a 2nd RBT. They work best in pairs. As do many things in the HE army.

Well, there's my two cents. Good luck at figuring out this puzzle. Later.

Got Squig?

Makarion
11-01-2007, 08:32
In 7th edition a mounted model in an infantry regiment no longer can be singled out for that reason alone. So, it's a moderately cheap way of giving the guy extra armour, especially since he can't have much in the way of magic gear.

Noldo
11-01-2007, 09:18
To my understanding, with 7th edition there is no difference between mounted BSB and BSB on foot inside a unit. I would practically never consider taking BSB on foot since I believe that the +2 to armor save provided by mount is too valuable, especially since High Elves don't get "Armour of Meteoric Iron" or "Flayed Hauberk" to provide excellent armour save in case you are on foot.

For other suggestions... I am quite aware that the composition does not have the standard elements. I am thankfull for observations pointing out, why the suggested combination might not work.


Units: Drop those sea guard they are really not worth their points

Everyone's first advice seems to always be "drop the sea guard". I am aware that they are quite pricy (and that was an understatement), but I would like to give them a try. To me it seems that 15 in two ranks could function, giving you 10 shots while they are in "shooting" formation and possibility to change into three ranks of 5 with just half move, allowing one to shoot one last 5 shots or move afterwards. Probably not worth it in the end, but I would like to give them a try.


keep the whitelions but increase their size, give them a full command and the lionstandard which is fluffy and will help if they lose to fear causing enemies who outnumber them.

I see no point making the White Lions larger. They are not supposed to go against ranked infantry alone, so taking more than two ranks (6x2) would be a waste. Perhaps adding 2 more (for 7x2), but I see no point on making them any larger.


Generally don't put characters in chariots - makes them a lot easier to target. Also, the lion guard is wasted on a commander in a chariot - he doesn't make the spear unit stubborn unless he is with them.

I am aware that a character in chariot can be targeted. However, with the less units capable of S7 with large movement, the main concern is to keep an eye on the cannons.

If I leave the character out from that chariot, the unit would no longer be able to fulfill its intended role, namely detactment style removal of ranks on combined charge. It might be that the chariot is not the bets unit for such a task, but on paper it seems effective.


I have never found great eagles good for anything except for march blocking and getting shot. You have the Shadow Warriors deployed to march block (like you said), so maybe drop eagle and get a 2nd RBT. They work best in pairs. As do many things in the HE army.

One thing I thought about (having 58 points left) is to leave the eagle home and take second RBT. That would give me quite effective shooting phase (2x6 from RBT, 10+10+5 from archers, sea guard and shadow warriors and 3 from the commander). I am just a little bit worried wether just one unit of shadow warriors would be sufficient to slow down enemy as much as is needed.


first if your taking an archmage then you want to maximize on the magic phase otherwise he will never be worth his points, i would take a second mage instead of the commander in the chariot, give your archmage the seer skill and the staff of solidity to help with miscasts, fiorget the ward save and 2 dispelscrolls, on the mage give him the ring of fury and a dispel scroll. give your bsb the ring of corin and all the other equipement you wanted.this will give you most likely magical superiority which is what HE are good at.

Having my current archmage with Lore of Heavens and Starwood Staff means that he can safely attempt most of the spells (actually all bar the comet) with 2 dice with high change of success. With 7-9 power dice that would mean 3-4 spells each magic phase (depending wether he gets the comet or not). None of them can be reliably dispelled with just one dice, forcing other player (unless dwarf) to choose what spell(s) let through. The rings would improve the magic phase significantly, and perhaps I should trade my mage's ward save (only protection against miscasts) for Ring of Fury (Coring is too expensive at the moment.

I don't want to sound like I oppose each and every revision that is suggested and most of the times the "traditional way of doing things" is tried and working.

malathlon
20-01-2007, 03:46
Sorry to butt in here with a question of my own but I wasn't aware that you could put a mounted char with an infantery unit. So I will definately put my char I planned on using with my swordmasters on a horse. It doesn't mess up the ranks I hope, if I have 20 models in the unit it counts as 5x4 just as normal even tho the horsie takes up more space, right?