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swordquest
14-07-2005, 00:21
Everything in the known universe is bound by similiar laws of physics. Even though demons are from the warp, which is presumably an extraplanar(as in planes in string theory and physics, not planes as in Magic The Gathering) place, they should still follow more or less basic physics when in our galaxy. Where does the matter to create demons come from. They are deffinitely are made of matter, as they bleed, talk, etc. Matter cannot be created or destroyed, so where do demons get there matter? Are they shot into real space from the realm of chaos with wierd chaos matter? That doesn't make scence though as the realm of chaos follows a different set of physical laws than our own universe/plane/dimension, and appears to be an ever-changing realm of pure energy, devoid of matter. Or is the realm of chaos like liquid space, sort off like Star Trek? I know that non of this makes any scense, but I would like to hear other peoples theories on how chaos works in Warhammer and 40k(isn't it really 41 or 42 k current 40k time???).

Jal'knock
14-07-2005, 00:29
I don't think that daemons operate from matter as such, rather that they are held together by warp energy flowing into realspace like warp storms and warp powers. I doubt that matter is the best way to describe how they exist, maybe they operate on an energy field like a hologram (To use another Star Trek comparison).

sigur
14-07-2005, 01:05
You can't describe or apprehend demons or gods with scientific measures. Period. Generally, trying to explain any phenomenon in the 40k universe with the laws of science will fail and end up in very exhausting talking with strange people. :)

Iracundus
14-07-2005, 01:13
Wraithbone is also written as solidified warp energy. If you take the warp and the material universe as the sum total energy/mass of the universe, then it doesn't violate conservation of energy/matter. That would also explain the ability of psykers to use warp energy to generate things like lightning bolts or blasts of fire: the conversion of warp energy into realspace energy.

FutureEmperor
14-07-2005, 01:56
Matter = Energy right, well not really but you can get energy from matter, and matter from energy. so basically what i think is happening is that the psyker is gathering up all this "warp energy" in a certain spot, this "warp energy" is mirrored in real space by well real energy. The when enough "warp energy" (which is most likely the daemons.) is in one place the energy in the real world is then turned into matter which reflects the energy in the warp, so in reality there is no daemon, there is only a reflection of the daemon in realspace.

well thats my explanation, [FAKE!!!] YOU DONT HAVE TO LIKE IT, Wahhh, WAhhh you never appreciate anything i do. *runs to room crying.* [Once again this sentence is a joke....]

but i think this is pretty much the best explanation i could come up with. its probably wrong, but does it really matter?[PUNdefinately intended] no not really.

Khaine's Messenger
14-07-2005, 02:01
Where does the matter to create demons come from.

One of two places:
1) From the warp...hence the term "warpmatter." This is a sort of grey-space, but the overlap between the warp allows the laws of physics to be toyed with a little.
2) Surrounding materials forced into the daemon's shape by psychic force.


Matter cannot be created or destroyed, so where do demons get there matter?

From the pure energy of the warp, which is connected to the universe and thus part of its "system" (which means the matterium cannot be considered a "closed system" for the purposes of the conservation laws). Unfortunately, it's considered impossible even by Tzeentch's greatest of Greater Daemons to create warpmatter that lasts a relatively long term because the "inertia of existance" is far too great, and things simply like to go back to their natural/ground state.

A caveat, though...I'm prettty darn science illiterate when it comes to these matters. :)

TenTailedCat
14-07-2005, 02:12
Looking at it from a fluff perspective Daemons tend to possess and corrupt human or alien bodies, so no mass is needed for them, it's already provided. As for Greater Daemons, I remember an old Grey Knights story called Rise of the Zombies where a HUGE greater daemon of some kind (Nurgle I suspect) was a huge mass of rotting corpses from a mass grave, perhaps a similar thing happens on the battlefield.

I also remember reading about the Wolrd Eaters sacrificing thousands of cultists to summon a Bloodthirster to help them defeat the Blood Angels (they failed miserably).
I suppse the sacrifice victims bodies may be used to provide the matter neded for demonic manifestation, though I don't know how this happens when a Greater Daemon manifests from a Champion on the battlefield. Pehaps the corpses of slain warriors provide the material needed?

In Warpspace, who knows if the Daemons aren't 'born', much like in the real world? Perhaps they grow and develop inside their gods?

This is all suposition, obviously.

Xisor
14-07-2005, 02:30
FutureEmperor has it IMO. Whilst generally speaking, you can't create matter out of 'nothing', that's right, daemons are inexplicable. However, if the warp and realspace exists beside each other there must(from a scientific PoV) be laws governing their interaction, no matter how complex. Thus Daemon 'realspace matter'=k * Daemon 'Warpspace matter', where matter = warpmatter*l and energy=m*warpenergy. It may not be directly linear, but there *must* be a relationship. The real science is how Necron Pylons and 'The Great Work of the C'tan' could actually shut off Warp Space and Real Space from each other :eek:

Xisor

Iracundus
14-07-2005, 04:15
Energy does equal matter via Einstein's e=mc^2. The exchange of ships jumping into the warp and daemons materializing into reality means neither the Warp nor realspace are closed systems.

That said, the permanent movement of warp material into realspace appears difficult as only the Eldar seem to do it. Though

The C'tan project doesn't shut off all warpspace from all of realspace. Their plan is to do so for only this galaxy. Read the Farseer's vision in the Necron Codex and the reference to a changeless "shard" of realspace.

PKAwolf
14-07-2005, 04:48
well, the warp is more or less a mirror of real space
almost all life is at best a spark in the warp, maybe even plants and mineral may have some small presence too small to be measured or consequencial (sp?)
the deamons and other warp beings are the manifestion of lifes emotion
(it was the eldars debasment that created slannesh)(stupid eldar)
its kind of an opposite... our tangible (life) is the warps substance (the "spark")
our intangible (emotion) is the warps life
is seems to have a bit of balance
deamons spilling over into real space is just an unbalanceing of the equation

how is the for science

sulla
14-07-2005, 08:36
Everything in the known universe is bound by similiar laws of physics. Even though demons are from the warp, which is presumably an extraplanar(as in planes in string theory and physics, not planes as in Magic The Gathering) place, they should still follow more or less basic physics when in our galaxy. Where does the matter to create demons come from. They are deffinitely are made of matter, as they bleed, talk, etc. Matter cannot be created or destroyed, so where do demons get there matter?.


:D :D :D And nothing can go faster than the speed of light, and the universe was created in a big bang etc, etc...

Ever wondered if all that stuff you were taught was true, or just accepted because we didn't hsave a better model of how things worked?

After all, the world isn't actually flat and there aren't just 4 elements but all the learned people of their time believed those 'truths' too... :rolleyes:

Wraith
14-07-2005, 10:41
He was making a general statement Sulla... for example physics can't yet explain in detail what really is going on in a black hole.

I suspect you have a particular axe to grind which probably should be done in the PnR forum...

Iracundus
14-07-2005, 12:13
The battlefield summoning of daemons by Chaos forces such as raiding Chaos Marines show that raw material in the form of sacrifices are not strictly necessary. However the known need for worship or rituals to sustain these daemonic forces in the long term (see Angron's Armageddon campaign) and the way they evaporate back into the warp when killed (see Realm of Chaos bit on Hellblades dissolving after the Bloodletter is slain) suggest this quick conversion of warp to matter is unstable and requires energy input to maintain. Now this would make sense since an organized mass of matter (daemonic body) would have lower entropy than the undifferentiated warp energy so change in entropy (delta S in the Gibbs Free Energy equation delta G = delta H - T * delta S) is negative. Since matter doesn't seem to spontaneously form from warp energy, we can also conclude that delta G is positive.

Who said thermodynamics and Warhammer 40K don't mix? :D

MvS
15-07-2005, 17:50
Generally speaking, it seems to me that the 'matter' of daemons comes from one of two things:

1. Transmuted physical shells - possessed bodies or corpses, or some other physical recepticle that has been warped or altered by the possessing daemons, and,

2. 'Warp Matter' - stuff that can manifest if the enivironment is saturated enough by and with Warp energy, whether that energy comes in the form or magic, psychic energy, departing spirits or whatever else. Also, in a universe where emotions and thoughts have some kind of tangible existence (as in they add to or mix up the Warp), perhaps en-masse and extreme manifestations of a particular emotion like anger or whatever might create an environment that a daemon associated with the relevant emotion can manifest itself, in conjunction with some sort of summonation ritual.

Briareos
15-07-2005, 17:58
Warp Zen : do warp demons who visit real space appear with a definite physical form if no one's around to see them pop in ? Or are their shape created by the perception of sentients ?

You know which one gets my vote :angel: :D

MvS
15-07-2005, 18:04
But this raises even more questions:

Are the shapes of soome daemons already decided by the coagulation of fears and concepts already within the Warp? So if everyone who knows of Nurgle (even in passing) imagines that His daemons are all rotten and with one eye (or whatever), are the daemons already predisposed to appear that way within the Materium regardless of whether anyone is there to see them?

Are they formed by the culture, perceptions and concepts of the mortal that is being possessed?

Can daemons who are not possessing a mortal shell with a definite shape appear as different things to different people?

:)

PKAwolf
15-07-2005, 18:28
Im of the opinion that deamons the forms of our collective unconcience
between the big 4 you have blood lust, senceual depravity, rot and anthropy, and change and corruption
these are more or less a collection of the deadly sins
the deamons and the gods are manifestations of the worst parts of humanity
one could suppose that there could also be a chaos god of love or creation, but their deamons are either too noble to interfere with our plane of reality or if they do, their presence isn't noticed or thought of as choas spilling over

guy one: whos that beautyful person spreading good will and cheer?
guy two: well he ain't no deamon, now forget about him and start shooting that bloodthirster!

Briareos
15-07-2005, 18:30
Can daemons who are not possessing a mortal shell with a definite shape appear as different things to different people?
Gameplay obviously postulate that demons have definite material forms. But stepping back a bit and leaving the wargame aside, I'd say that the demons have no physical shapes.

My personnal take on it is as follows : a demon is a small semi-autonomous warp aggregate created by the god (enormous vortexes of semi-sentient, semi-independant warp energy). They are an extension of their god like fingers are an extension of our bodies. When a demon manifests in real space, a microscopic warp portal opens and allows warp matter to leak into real space. Warp has no shape or form. It breaks down real-space matter and reforms it according to the dominant co-sensual expectations of the beholders.

Thoughts shape the warp. Warp breaks down matter, which results in warp-saturated material particles. These particles are reshaped according to the expectations of the beholders, or the orders a sufficiently powerful psykers.

As long as the rift is open, the matter remains "soft" and can be shaped. Once the rift is closed (by "killing" the demon, which is really just an subconscious psychic firefight between the warp entity and its sentient adversaries), the matter becomes "hard" and the laws of physic apply once more.

TheSonOfAbbadon
15-07-2005, 18:31
There would not be a CHAOS god of love and creation, but a nice god. I believe the Emperor is pretty much the human equivelant of that.

swordquest
15-07-2005, 19:18
I will add a further point to this discussion. What is dark matter? Is it some form of warp matter or is it like anti-warp? Sort off like there is anti-matter according to some theories of Einstein and others.

Sojourner
15-07-2005, 19:42
Take it as being tiny fluctuations in the yang-mills field of the universe interfering with the virtual particle field in a coherent manner.

As for dark matter - it's nothing special, just matter that doesn't give off much light, hence 'dark'. Dust, gas, weirdy particles, neutrinos and old dead stars.

Reinnon
15-07-2005, 23:14
well, there isn't any "physics" explanation for em, as i doubt the guy who invented them was a physics professor.

deamons in the fluff however, are a mixture of emotions formed within the warp and controlled by the chaos gods who have become so powerful that they are self aware.

at least thats what it says in the tzeentch background book.

(and anyway, matter can be created and destroyed....what do you anti-matter is? energy and matter are not the same thing)

Shadowheart
16-07-2005, 09:21
In my opinion trying to piece together 'scientific' explanations for the magical and mysterious is the worst thing you could do. The explanations science offers are typically useless enough when it comes to reality, let alone fiction. A crucifix is (among other things) a collection of atoms, it is (sometimes) a work of art, and it is a symbol of Christianity. And even though physics doesn't account for it, this last aspect is the more important and real.

A quote from The Sandman comes to mind, from Preludes & Nocturnes, when John Dee talks about his work (and plot for world domination).


People think dreams aren't real because they aren't made of matter, of particles. Dreams are real. But they are made of viewpoints, of images, of memories and puns and lost hopes...

I agree that it doesn't make sense that something like that could take shape in our physical world, but whoever suggested a daemon had to make sense? I think Chaos gives the laws of physics (like all Law) the finger, and will manifest itself how and where it choses, regardless of whether it makes any sense to anyone. Admittedly, it can't do that everywhere, it would depend on how the balance of the Chaos/Law equation is at a particular point, but that balance isn't simply a matter of physics either.

In my opinion, this is a fundamental aspect of the Warhammer backgrounds, things don't absolutely need to make sense. In 40K, things can and will happen that shouldn't by all rights happen, which is perhaps the most terrifying thing about the place.



There would not be a CHAOS god of love and creation, but a nice god. I believe the Emperor is pretty much the human equivelant of that.

Oh, I would strongly contest that. Love is distinctly Chaotic in my experience, and any attempt to make sense of it or apply rules to it seems to result in failure and lead to trouble. Love has a habit of messing things up, the people afflicted by it more than anything. I'm not at all sure love is actually a positive thing. And as for creation, there are many kinds of creation, many of which are Chaotic. Just today I read how J.K. Rowling said she writes with her heart, not her mind.