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paspinall
10-01-2007, 12:15
Hi guys,

I;m working on my Empire army list and am probably going to take a hero or maybe two to join my greatswords. However here is where I run in to a problem.

I will most likely be fielding the Greatswords as an independant unit so with their high cost also they may well be outnumbered in combat.

Thus I was going to include the BSB in their unit with the Griffon standard to double their rank bonus.

However I aso quite like the idea o taking a Captain with the Sword of Sigismund in the unit so they at least get some hits in before the enemy thus reducing the numbers to attack.

OR should I take a hero with the Icon of Magnus to reduce their suceptability to fear?


I face a fair number of armies including Dwarves Wood Elves and one guy who insists he is going to be getting a VC army.


So what do people thing I should use? Or do I have the General join them in which case I could take the sword and the icon on one character but thi does make a very expensive unit then...

Catferret
10-01-2007, 12:35
Where better to have the General than with his personal Guard? I doubt he'd wanna be far from his personal standard either so stick the BSB in their too. OK, it's a very pricey unit but it would look great!

Why are you fielding them without at least one Detachment? Surely a Detachment of Swordsmen would really help you out. I'm guessing you have some background reason for this. Please elaborate.

paspinall
10-01-2007, 12:44
Actually it was more because they are the last block on my flank, if I have the points left from the rest of the army I probably would give them detatchments.

As for the General and Standard bearer. OUCH expensive, f I did this would it be more a god idea of using the Greatswords as the Army Centre?

If I did this I would have to find or rather make up another character or two to go with my mounted units.

Catferret
10-01-2007, 13:08
It was just me thinking of reasons for having lots of characters in one unit. It's rarely a good idea!

The General should be more than enough to keep the unit functioning. Laurels of Victory or Icon of Magnus for keeping the unit around. Probably Sword of Sigismund as your weapon of choice for killing lots of stuff quickly.

paspinall
10-01-2007, 15:58
In which case I will eaither use the BSB with just the upgrade and a weapon upgrade somewhere, or maybe in a unit of spearmen, I cant see Knights being worth Taking the Griffon standard, of course I suppose I could always take a second unit of Greatswords :D

Neknoh
10-01-2007, 17:54
A Warrior Priest with the Icon of Magnus

Less susceptible to fear
the unit gains HATRED!
And you get to field a unit of Flaggies as Core
What more can you wish for?

Negativemoney
10-01-2007, 18:10
I agre with Neknoh on this.

Warrior Priests for all!!!!

They are just tooooo good.

Crazy Harborc
10-01-2007, 18:37
I've got a regular opponent who likes using Warrior Priests. The WP's pirks are very annoying. Hatred's perks IMHO can easily be worth the one less attack that the WPs have in their profiles.

paspinall
10-01-2007, 19:22
It would probably be nice in game turns to give them the WP, but doesnt it seem.... well a little odd, the stubborn Count's guard being wipped up in to a pit of hatred....hmmm

plus I did wonder if I have the points to include a flagellent group considering their low WS would the priest not be a good idea to include with them....

Negativemoney
10-01-2007, 19:40
The Count;s guard can hate some one just as much as the next guy. Given thier stubborn nature they will hate them that much more.

Flagellants should be fielded alone. They have thier sacrafice deal that gives them many diffrent bonuses such as re-rolling hits and wounds so I would just over stock the unit so you can be making sacrafices every turn with little impact on the unit as a whole.

Mephistofeles
10-01-2007, 19:43
Well the Greatswords are picked for different reasons in different counties, maybe your general picks those of his soldiers who display not only great combat prowess but also the most burning faith in Sigmar to join his personal bodyguard?

I think a WP would be good, if you take a BSB then it's too many points, the unit would be too much of a juicy target for all your enemies.

Neknoh
10-01-2007, 20:04
Also, with a Warrior Priest and the unit hating the enemy, the Warrior Priest is not ONLY a raving fanatic, he is also a very skilled orrator, maybe he convinces the troops that the enemy army has insulted their lord?

paspinall
10-01-2007, 20:35
Well I HAD Been working on a list with the General joining the Greatswords, now I'm not sure again, I think it might be a LITTLE OTT with both the General and a WP no?

Lieutenant Frederic Henry
11-01-2007, 01:26
Take a Captain with a greatsword and full plate. Adding three strength 6 weapon skill 5 attacks and two wounds, plus an extra point of leadership (albeit one that is unable to benefit from the hatred ability, but some times it comes in handy), all for 62 points? Where do I sign up? Either that or a warrior priest with heavy armor and a great weapon. Both are cheap options which make the unit that much better in combat.
Always take a detatchment. I use halberdiers. Others use swordsmen. Personal preference... but always take at least one. Put them out on the flank... BSB's and Generals need to be in the center with the leadership 7, non-stubborn troops.
Hope this helps.
Cheers.

PS- ALWAYS USE DETATCHMENTS. If you don't have the points... find them.

vorac
11-01-2007, 02:25
oh and paspinall unbreakable units can only be joined by unbreakable characters which the warrior priest is not, at least not until casting unbending righteousness

paspinall
11-01-2007, 07:22
well as Greatswords arnt unbreakable either.... so????

Neknoh
11-01-2007, 09:11
He was reffering to the idea of throwing the WP into the Flaggies I think

Jonahmaul
11-01-2007, 09:36
As an elite unit you don't really want your greatswords out on the flanks unless you can guarantee them some combat out there, there's no point spending so many points otherwise. I wouldn't put your general & BSB in the unit as then that's a too many points in the unit.

As you want the unit to see combat I would suggest a combat character over BSB as the only thing a BSB can have is a magic standard, nothing to make him better in combat. If you do take a BSB & the griffon standard make sure that you have enough models for 3 ranks though otherwise that can also turn into a waste of points.

paspinall
11-01-2007, 10:31
Ah WP in the flaggies, my apologies i misunderstood.


A BSB can take stuff to improve his combat skills, but of course then he cant take the magic standard.

I am now really unsure if I should include My general ith Sword of Sigismund, hand weapon, Armour of meteoric iron and Icon of Magnus or just a Captain with either the sword or the icon.

Mephistofeles
11-01-2007, 12:34
As has been said, always take detachments. I always use free company, I'll just do some mathhammer to show you why:

Let's assume you have a detachment of 10. That will usually give you 5 models in base contact, and detachments always strike first when you charge or get charged, so we'll calculate on that.

Against WS3, T3 opponents, it will look like this (rounded of to quarters):

Halberdiers: 5 attacks 2.5 hits 1.75 wounds
Swordsmen: 5 attacks 3.5 hits 1.75 wounds
Free Comp:10 attacks 5 hits 2.5 wounds
Spearmen: 5 attacks 2.5 hits 1.25 wounds

So, basically, free company will cause more wounds on average against ws3 T3 opponents. If the enemy has higher ws, then the swordsmen will go down to the same efficiency as spearmen (which is bad) , and if the toughness goes up then swordsmen will drop even more in effiency. Halberdiers or Free company are the way to go I feel, and I'll do some math for them here:

Against ws 4 T4 enemies (dwarves, orcs etc.):

Halberdiers: 5 attacks 2.5 hits 1.25 wounds
Free Comp: 10 attacks 5 hits 1.75 wounds

Now, I appologize for any faults in the calculations, I'm tired and have a fever, so don't get mad at me.

paspinall
11-01-2007, 13:03
pretty convincing to me :)

So for a second detatchment (for pretyt much very prent unit) Should I take missile troops to give me that stand and shoot ption, or add in another hand to hand just to get more kills in close combat? I;m inclined to think missile detatchments even though that mkes them more expensive.

And in this regard I assume Handgunners as unless the unit is holding a specific point it will be moving so neither unit can fire. In which case range makes no difference so I want the armour piercing right?

Mephistofeles
11-01-2007, 15:52
I forgot to include the enemies armour in the calculations, as halberdiers will give all enemies -1 in armour, they get an edge against armoured opponents, but as we are talking about just 1-2 wounds every turn, it will not matter that much against lightly armoured foes, and maybe not against others either.

I only ever use one detachment for my units, but if you want to go with two, I would say that handgunners or archers. Archers can fire even if you move, but handgunners are so much better, for the same points, so it depends on your style of play really.

Von Wibble
11-01-2007, 17:32
I consider a few things when deciding between archers and handguns/crossbows.

1 is playing style as mentioned above.

The 2nd is deployment. I think that an army that can't deploy in such a way as to provide support will struggle. Archers here do a lot better as thanks to skirmish they will all get to fire without taking up much space, whilst a single rank of 10 handguns is fairly restrictive in terms of where it can go (bearing in mind my army usually has a large missile unit and war machine occupying the hill).

3rd thing is that archers can act as march blockers and still get the odd shot in, whilst handguns can't.

4th of course is S4AP vs S3. No contest there.

For these reasons I generally prefer a mix of the 2 as 1 detachment, with a combat detachment as the other. Here I have a mix of free company and halberdiers myself - wouldn't recommend swordsmen or spears.

Mike3791
11-01-2007, 17:49
what do people think of the runefang in general? What about runefang plus warrior priest for rerolls?

Von Wibble
11-01-2007, 18:13
Warrior priests do not grant hatred to characters. So no reroll therefore no added value. The runefang isn't worth 100pts on a character with only A3 WS5.

Mike3791
11-01-2007, 18:37
WS5 means hitting most things on 3s. The Grand Master has the most attacks as far as Empire Lords go, A4, which is only one more than the general. Statisticly, the GM will miss or fail to wound at least once. The runefang does not fail to wound and ingores armor. Sure the general may miss, but hitting on 3s is pretty good. Now the real question is, is the general worth it compared to an unbreakable war alter, which can lock down enemy units while having LD9 and allowing the empire infantry to swamp the engaged enemy block. The AL has 2 attacks but makes up for it with impact hits and unbreakable...what does everyine think?

I really need help choosing my Lord.

Lieutenant Frederic Henry
11-01-2007, 20:39
Empire General every time, if you play an infantry army. I don't know why everyone is so impressed with the Archlector. He has two attacks and a limited "spellcasting" ability. He's a subpar fighter, and a subpar spellcaster. Otherwise, Grandmaster, but then most of your army ought to be cavalry, to justify not being able to confer LD 9 to your masses of state infantry.

Mephistofeles- Free companies as a detatchment for Greatswords are an awful idea. You're giving away combat resolution with T3 unarmored troops. The enemy still gets to attack back, you know. You may cause 1.25 wounds or whatever (against free company equivalent, which usually won't be in combat with greatswords anyway), but the enemy will redirect the majority of their attacks back at your T3 SV-, and gain back more than that much in combat resolution. The best detatchment for greatswords are swordsmen, by far. The enemy is making all their attacks against troops with WS4 SV4+... not much of a choice there, eh? I can't see much real justification for taking free company as Greatswords detatchments, when swordsmen are only one point more expensive and don't give away combat resolution like car dealers and options packages.
Cheers.

Lieutenant Frederic Henry
11-01-2007, 20:42
disregard this post. it was a multiple. sorry, warseer.

Mephistofeles
11-01-2007, 21:02
Von Wibble: Wait a moment, did you say that you take a mix of them as one detachment? I hope I just misunderstand you here.

Lieutenant Frederic Henry: Yes, actually, you have made me understand the error of my ways, and I think that I shall change my army from now on. And I am not being sarcastic even though it sounds like it, I actually do see that you are right and I am wrong. I will try and change this in my army ASAP.

Lieutenant Frederic Henry
11-01-2007, 21:30
That being said, free company are excellent detatchments for other units. If you take a big block of halberdiers, there's no good reason not to take free company as their detatchments. They also work well as spearmen detatchments.
Cheers.

Crazy Harborc
11-01-2007, 21:42
A friend pointed out that a statement forbiding halberdiers and spearman detachments from taking shields (was part of the special detachment rules of6th Edition) isn't in the 7th ones. Suddenly my halberds are looking a little more like being able to cross the field alive to do a support or counter charge in behalf of their parent unit.

Mike3791
11-01-2007, 21:52
Empire General every time, if you play an infantry army. I don't know why everyone is so impressed with the Archlector. He has two attacks and a limited "spellcasting" ability. He's a subpar fighter, and a subpar spellcaster. Otherwise, Grandmaster, but then most of your army ought to be cavalry, to justify not being able to confer LD 9 to your masses of state infantry.

dont forget that the Archlector adds +2 dispell dice and is unbreakable on war alter. The only reason I could see the General as being appealing is his runefang and 3A but the war alter has impact hits. Also he can use 3 bound spells. Combine this 3 bound spells with 2 warrior priests(one with ring of volans), thats 6 bound spells...thats awesome IMHO.

paspinall
11-01-2007, 22:15
Well I dont know why we got a discussion on the Army Leader too but I'll bite, Quite simply, I;m using the General.... no matter what the main list ends up like really, For now my thinking is a Reiksguard looking army, or at least a Reiksland army, now as the 'Grandmaster' in this case would be Kurt.... and I;m not fond of the character... that's a no.

As for the Arch Lector, I prefer placing my General in to a Unit usually and I;m not wonderfully keen on the War Alter model either.


HAVING said that, it looks like I may end up making a Reiksguard esque army and a smaller Sigmar cult army.

Mike3791
11-01-2007, 22:38
is the runefang a hand weapon, because if it is, you can give the General that and a pistol to get 4A in CC. I think it is a hand weapon because in the empire book it shows Karl Franz wielding it with one hand pg 82

Jonahmaul
11-01-2007, 22:56
You can't use other items in combination with a magic weapon though so can't benefit for having an extra hand weapon.

Mephistofeles
12-01-2007, 08:48
is the runefang a hand weapon, because if it is, you can give the General that and a pistol to get 4A in CC. I think it is a hand weapon because in the empire book it shows Karl Franz wielding it with one hand pg 82

It does not matter if it is wielded in one hand, it has not got the rules for "Hand Weapon" since it's magical. Therefore it may not benefit from any of the rules concerning hand weapons (and therefor does not grant +1 attack with another hand weapon, or +1 save with a shield)

paspinall
12-01-2007, 09:10
I thought in the rule for Magic weapons the only benefit they had same as the normal weapons was you COULD use a shield with them, nothng else mind just a shield.

Mephistofeles
12-01-2007, 09:53
Oh you can use a shield and it gives +1 armour save, but it does not give an aditional +1 for having the "Hand weapon+Shield" combo.

paspinall
12-01-2007, 10:17
See this is my fault for predominantly being a 40ker.


So if I have a General in full plate with a runefang and a shield he has armour of +3 all the time

If the General had a mundane sword and shield with his full plate he has armour +3 when shot at and +2 when in combat?

And if he had an enchanted shield with full plate and hand weapon it would be +2 all the time, ie no increase for Handweapon and shield ?

ffarsight
12-01-2007, 10:58
See this is my fault for predominantly being a 40ker.


So if I have a General in full plate with a runefang and a shield he has armour of +3 all the time

If the General had a mundane sword and shield with his full plate he has armour +3 when shot at and +2 when in combat?

And if he had an enchanted shield with full plate and hand weapon it would be +2 all the time, ie no increase for Handweapon and shield ?

yes, and if the General has a mundane hand weapon and enchanted shield with full plate armour he will get 2+ AS when shot and 1+ AS when in combat.

elite_dannux
12-01-2007, 11:03
Take the Warbanner instead of the griffon banner. Its effects will last longer and are more reliable and cheaper.

Mephistofeles
12-01-2007, 11:38
Don't take the warbanner instead of the griffon banner. The Griffon banner will give 3 times as big bonuses until the unit goes down below 20 models, then it will give twice the bonus until the unit goes down below 15 and the same until the unit goes below 10. For just 30 more points...