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Kahadras
11-01-2007, 17:36
Mercenary General + barded warhorse, heavy armour, enchanted shield and sword of might = 147p

Paymaster + heavy armour and shield = 63p

Captain + Pegasus, heavy armour and shield = 108p

Wizard + dispel scrolls = 110p

24 Pikemen + heavy armour and FC = 294p

25 Pikemen + heavy armour and FC = 305p

25 Pikemen + heavy armour and FC = 305p

20 Dwarfs + heavy armour, shields and FC = 210p

10 Crossbowmen = 80p

10 Crossbowmen = 80p

7 Heavy cavalry + barding and FC = 178p

Cannon = 85p

Cannon = 85p

The basic idea for the army is the three pike units set up in the center close together to protect each other flanks. The Paymaster goes in the central unit to give his bonus to all three units (he works like a BSB). The Dwarfs will set up on one flank to protect the vunerable sides of the pike blocks. The Heavy cavalry will probably set up on the other flank to perform the same job.

The Captain will fly around hunting down warmachines and lone characters. The two cannon will hopefully set up on a hill, protected by the two units of crossbowmen. That's about it really. Against armies that like to attack I sit back and shoot then aim to break the remaining units in close combat with my pikemen. If the enemy likes to sit back too then I'll need to advance under covering fire from my Cannon and Crossbowmen and take the fight to the enemy. This is a bit more risky as it leaves me open to the possibility of being charged in the flank or rear of my pike formations (something I really don't want to happen).

I really could do advise on this as I haven't been playing Warhammer for ages.

Kahadras

god octo
11-01-2007, 20:02
the list definetely has lots of infantry, but i would personally try to find space for some duelists with pistols. They arent as good as 6th ed ones, but they can pack a shooting punch and they are cheap troops that could guard the flanks of your army.

Kahadras
11-01-2007, 21:11
the list definetely has lots of infantry

That was my intent. Plenty of nice deep block units which, combined with pikes, should case real problems for anybody who charges my battleline.


i would personally try to find space for some duelists with pistols

I wasn't to keen on dualists when I first looked at them. If I do take some what, from my list, do you sugest dropping in order to make room?

Keep the comments comming please.

Kahadras

Van Holland
12-01-2007, 06:52
just one question.....in the 24 man unit....you have them listed at 249 points....but then for a 25 man....its 305.....is that last pikeman like super godly 44 point pikeman of death?

Kahadras
12-01-2007, 11:56
Ooops you right. I must have typed it in the wrong way when I was writing out the list. Bleh. Never mind I've gone back and fixed it.

So are there any thoughts and comments about the list rather than my inability at maths/typing?

Kahadras

Sanjuro
12-01-2007, 12:00
Looks great, though it is severely lacking in mobility. Sort of like the dwarf of human armies. :)

I would try to get at least one unit of duellists in there, along with a unit of light cav. Duellists are actually superbly useful in any DoW army. Light cav, of course, is equally so. I mean, I don't need to tell you the uses of light cav, right?

Course, you wont be able to add those units without changing your army around (probably dropping an entire infantry block), so it's a question of taste, really. Do you think you can do without the services that fast and mobile units like light cav and skirmishers provide? If so, the army is fine as is.

OH yeah, the unit of 8 cav? No go. 8 in a row is just too unwieldy and 2x4 does no longer give a rank bonus. You need to be 5 wide in 7th ed. All it might do is give outnumbering, and that's not worth it. I would also be VERY wary of putting the general with the heavy cav, which needs to be able to race ahead, strike at the flanks and punch through the enemy line. That will leave your units with very poor LD (apart from the dwarfs, that is). The pikemen only have Ld7, which is much MUCH too low, and the Ld8 from the paymaster to one unit won't get you very far.

Kahadras
12-01-2007, 12:15
Hmmm. What do you sugest then? Drop the Heavy cavalry to five. Drop my General into one of the pike units. Use to points to buy some light cavalry to drive away enemy skirmishers? I'll probably do a list rewrite at some point but I want to get a few more ideas in before that.

Kahadras

Sanjuro
12-01-2007, 13:06
Hmmm. What do you sugest then? Drop the Heavy cavalry to five. Drop my General into one of the pike units. Use to points to buy some light cavalry to drive away enemy skirmishers? I'll probably do a list rewrite at some point but I want to get a few more ideas in before that.

Kahadras


Yeah, 5-6 heavy cav is enough, you just want to use them to deny certain areas of advancement or perhaps go to the flanks - you don't need to rely on them to win the battle for you. Just a small support unit is good, has always worked for me. They are very cheap, so no big loss if they die. They still can take some punishment with a 2+ save, so if the enemy shoots at them instead of your pikemen, great.

General definitly with the infantry, especially in an infantry based list such as this. I'd say it is no question about it, you really, really will be wanting to use that Ld9 to it's fullest extent. If you can get points for a bunch of light cav this way, that would be great. They can be very useful, and if you don't want to spend any points on them, they are dirt cheap. 11 pts with no extra equipment, unless my memory decieves.

I couldn't say anything about the captain on a pegasus really, since I've always wanted to try it but never gotten around to actually doing it. My hunch is that he is much more useful than just another scroll caddy, so verily: go for it. He is probably the best war machine hunter you can get your hands on. Too bad that he can only really take one missile volley and then he's a goner... you should be able to hide him from shooty units, but beware magic missiles. He will be prime target no.1 for every magic missile in the enemy's arsenal, so to get stuck in fast with him would be my best bet.

Me, I love ogres and halflings in my DoW, but that is clearly not for this army. They aren't really that good either... I use a hot pot, but I can't seem to remember the last time it did any useful damage... it's really just there to avoid the "cheese! you've got 2 cannons!" cries. That, and I really, really like the look of the model :D

Anyway, you will of course be setting up that army in a refused flank manner in pretty much every fight. Put the crossbowmen stretched out thin on the refused flank and anchor the pikemen's flanks with terrain, dwarves and the table edge. As long as you've got your flanks covered, you are good to go.

Yeah, DoW is really perhaps my favourite army, either that or Empire. There's something about being the underdog... that, and the fabulous Italian army background just speaks to me on a basic level. :)

Kahadras
12-01-2007, 13:45
Me, I love ogres and halflings in my DoW, but that is clearly not for this army.

I agree. I wanted the army fairly concentrated in where it came from. I wanted the vast majority of the army to be from Tilea or the surronding area. This ment no Norse or Halflings for the time being. On top of this I wanted a 'civilised' feel to the army. I think people would be less keen to employ an army with Orcs or Ogres in its ranks. While this limits me on what I can take I still think I can get enough cool stuff into the army.

As people have already noted I love the idea of lots of deep blocks of Pikemen (which is what a Tilean army should be all about). I reasoned that I could get the Dwarfs in because there are bound to be a few small communities in the Apucinni mountains. I reasoned that they're probably not as well off as their cousins to the north and would happily take up the mercenary life it it ment more gold.

If I do extend the list to 3000 points I may go for a couple of the Regiment of Renown. I'm not sure which but Braganza's Besiegers and Bronzino's Galloper Guns have definatly raised my interest. The thought of a tough missile unit and mobile artillery is quite entertaining.


it's really just there to avoid the "cheese! you've got 2 cannons!"

I really can't understand why people would get upset by two cannons. The Empire can take four in the same size list and they're better to boot.

Kahadras

Sanjuro
13-01-2007, 11:52
I really can't understand why people would get upset by two cannons. The Empire can take four in the same size list and they're better to boot.

Kahadras

People get upset about all sorts of things. :)

Might I recommend Voland's Venators as the RoR? S4 heavy cav can come in quite handy. Also, they are the Drunken Cavalry! What could be better?

I wonder what tips I could give you. Have you played any games with a DoW list before? I guess my most useful tactic would be the one I've already mentioned, the refused flank. It forces the enemy to either wade through a hail of crossbow bolts trying to get to your main infantry units, and lets the crossbowmen shoot enfilading fire relatively undisturbed. Or if the enemy decides to chase off the crossbowmen, they are wasting time that would be better spent on trying to gain some real VP. Of course, there are a few units that will make a mockery of this tactic as well - beastherds for one. Fast and cheap enough to send after crossbowmen undiscriminately.

I do medium magic with my list, 2 level 2:s, but to be honest I haven't played a single game with the 7th ed rules. I predict that my wizards will be nearly useless now that I can't hide them near units anymore, so I'm not sure how I am going to change there. The way to go might be to do what you have done with this list, the flying captain.

Oh yeah, and make sure you never face dwarves with this kind of list. Just don't. :D

Von Wibble
13-01-2007, 12:45
Or bretonnians. Pikemen don't actually stop charging knights. Riccos republicans are slightly better as at least a lot of knights are 4 to hit them. I think its costs 300 for 20 so it isn't much of a switch.

Why doesn't the captain on pegasus have a lance?

Kahadras
13-01-2007, 14:45
Or bretonnians. Pikemen don't actually stop charging knights

Actualy pikemen are OK against Brets. The Pike really evens things out and there's a good chance you can kill a couple of knights on the first turn before they even get to strike. If you have a nice deep block you can absorb the casualties and still get your 20 plus attacks next turn. Once the Brets are stuck the large amount of attacks you can generate eventualy wears them down.


Why doesn't the captain on pegasus have a lance?

I forgot to add it :p . I'll do a rewrite and post up the changes I have made.

Kahadras

Inkosi
13-01-2007, 17:40
Not a very nice list i would say.

Like i mentioned to you before in another thread. Pikes are over-rated.
Yes they fight in 4 ranks, but everyone knows that as well.

No one is going to charge you from the front.

you would get slaughtered by 1 thing. fast cav.

Your army is severely lacking in mobility and support fast cav. Having infantry based armies is only possible when you are playing hordes and have decent infantry.

i would propose at least dropping 1 unit of oikes and getting some light cav. you need them.

And you wouldnt want your captain on a pegasus. you re just throwing 100+ points away. He doesnt have any almighty equipment and neither is he any powerful, good way to let your character be shot down and killed.

Von Wibble
13-01-2007, 18:09
Using mathshammer here I know but I have seen and used pikes vs bretonnians before and therefore have empirical evidence to add to below.

Unit of 12 brets (lets say knights of the realm) charges your pikes. Note that the knights are cheaper than the pike unit. Pikemen get 21 attacks - 10.5 hit, 5.25 wound, 1 knight dead (if you're lucky). Knights get 9 attacks - thats about 5 kills. Horses get another 2 kills.

Knights score - 7

Pikes score - 1 + 1 + 1 = 3

Loss by 4 = break check. Best odds 48% of holding - if the general and paymaster are in range (ld 5 with reroll) It doesn't take much for 1 of those 2 things not to be true - such as the knights charging the central block and killing the paymaster.

Chances are the pikes are broken through.

It would be nice if they counted as defended obstacle vs cavalry instead of striking first, and also ignored saves, but otoh could only claim this bonus as long as they didn't move.

Sanjuro
13-01-2007, 23:58
Yeah, in open terrain versus 12 knights fighting in the best tactical formation available to knights, pikes do tend to underwhelm us with their performance... that said, we do our best to assure that we do not have to do battle in such a straight up fight. And I suppose that losing by 4 is significantly less than what most other T3, 5+ save infantry units would expect to lose by when charged by 12 bret knights. So in that respect, pikes can still claim to be the best anti-cavalry weapon.

The very best anti-cavalry weapon is terrain though and we must always try to use that to our advantage. If there is rough terrain on the table, take up positions behind that. Use woods to anchor flanks or to force akward lanes of advancements. Setup cannons and crossbows to get enfilading fire.

But yeah, all things being equal - Bret cavalry trumps Tilean infantry most of the time.

Inkosi is blunt in his statement, but his words ring true and he has a valuable point. DoW are underdogs on the tactical level, there is no shirking around that fact. You would do much better with almost any other army, of this I am sure. But that is not the point in this discussion. We condottieri are not drawn to the DoW army for reasons of effectivity - we are drawn to it for aesthetical and etherical reasons. We are connoisseurs and act as such.

There is no shame in commanding a DoW force such as yours, Kahadras, in the face of adversity. No, I say, rather there is great pride and achievement in knowing that every battle might well be your final battle - that is, unless you manage to escape to fight again another day. You know what they say about valour and discretion being the better part of it.

And as GW are banning DoW armies from tournaments, we must stand up and fight even that giant - wind mill-shaped though it might be, that is of no consequence. Tenacity and steel will win the day - that and a healthy grasp of the relative value of money visavis your own life.

Forward, Condottieri! To riches and ruin! To hell and high water! We are the last contracted gentlemen!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0b/Il_Condottiere.jpg

Kahadras
14-01-2007, 13:26
I said that I'd post up a revised list so here it is....

Mercenary General + heavy armour and enchanted shield = 106p

Paymaster + heavy armour and shield = 63p

Wizard + dispel scroll = 110p

24 Pikemen + heavy armour and FC = 294p

24 Pikemen + heavy armour and FC = 294p

25 Pikemen + heavy armour and FC = 305p

20 Dwarfs + heavy armour, shields and FC = 210p

10 Crossbowmen = 80p

10 Crossbowmen = 80p

5 Heavy cavalry + barding and FC = 150p

5 Light cavalry + shields = 65p

5 Light cavalry + shields = 65p

Cannon = 85p

Cannon = 85p

= 1992

Basicaly the General is dropped into one of the pike units. The captain on Pegasus is removed to allow for the inclusion of two light cavalry units. I do agree with Sanjuro that the list shouldn't win that much. It's designed to be fun and interesting to play.

Kahadras

Sanjuro
15-01-2007, 09:27
Looks like a great list, has much more tactical options now, with the small inclusion of a few light cavalry. I'm sad to see the pegasus go, but perhaps it is for the best. Perhaps.

I noticed one common mistake - you have given the general an enchanted shield. You can save about 7 pts if you just give him a regular shield instead, since the save he is getting is the same (3+ with heavy armour due to the parry rule with hand weapon and shield). :)

So that's 15 pts that you can spend on whatever. Perhaps a talisman of protection for one of your guys? I guess a 6+ ward is better than no ward... or maybe if you drop the standard in the heavy cav unit you can get musicians for both of your light cav. They are expensive (15 bloody pts, bah!) but can be very useful. I'd also prefer spears over shields... but that said, I use light cav with shields in my list too, since I'm using the Desert Dogs models, and they have scimitars with shields. Sometimes, style goes first. :D