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marv335
13-01-2007, 20:13
I got my copy of the rules yesterday and i've had a read through.
looking at the lists it seems to me that the eldar are a little too powerful.
the holofield save makes a huge difference.
now don't get me wrong, the speed and agility of the eldar i have no problem with. even the fact that they have the holofield is no problem, but where is the traditional eldar fragility?
normally they are a glass hammer. hard to hit, easy to kill, with stunning firepower.
they have everything except the fragility that characterises the eldar.

the slightly higher points don't make a huge difference.
so, opinions?

Spacker
14-01-2007, 09:12
The holofield save represents them being harder to hit rather than being hard to damage (despite the roll being a save against damage), exactly as they should be. On average 33% of hits will have gone through the shimmering image of where they were, rather than where they are. However, it would be better if the roll was to negate hits, as that would increase the chance of damaging them a little.

New Cult King
15-01-2007, 10:58
I say play a game first and see how they go on the table before judging their apparent performance on paper.

Spacker
15-01-2007, 12:42
I did - had a 3 way game yesterday; the Eldar took no damage at all, managing to save the only damage done with the holofield. My Imperials lost a Thunderbolt, and the Chaos player lost all his Hell Blades (with 1 hit they go down fast). I'll try to get a few more games in later in the week and see if they continue to shrug off damage.

Forbiddenknowledge
15-01-2007, 13:27
Damn, that was fast - a week or two til people call "overpowered".

Must be a record.

Spacker
15-01-2007, 14:24
Heh. I'm just waiting for my Eldar to arrive, and for the Vampires to be released :D

Baaltharus
15-01-2007, 14:28
Traditional Eldar fragility no longer applies in the air as all aircraft are lightly armoured, if anything the rule is turned on its head as the Eldar are best suited to light weight maneouverability and protection. In this case the Eldars weaponry is what has taken the knock, the likes of shuriken weapons not being as effective as the less sophisticated but more powerful autocannons. And I would totally disagree about the points, Chaos look one of the best air craft as they can just about match the imperials for firepower, the Eldar for speed and manouverability and cost less than ork aircraft. Learn to use them right and 3 nighthawks will be hard pressed against 7 hell blades.

Al.

orangesm
15-01-2007, 15:15
Also a three way game I think is not the best way to determine if something is necessarily over-powered. A head to head game I think will show this better.

Spacker
15-01-2007, 15:40
Also a three way game I think is not the best way to determine if something is necessarily over-powered. A head to head game I think will show this better.

True, although it did end up as Imperials + Chaos v Eldar at one point and our combined forces didn't damage them. It will definitely need some more games to be played, and the Chaos player will be taking some Hell Talons next time - they might have worse autocannons and cost a little more, but the 3 hits they have should keep him alive a lot longer.

Which reminds me, the Thunderbolt save - I read it as saying that if 2 hits are scored against the TB at the same time then a save can be taken against the 2nd, but one of the players pointed out that he thinks it means that all damage taken when only 1 hit is left can be saved against. Am I just reading it wrong?

marv335
15-01-2007, 17:24
spacker, i read the rule the same way you do.
it's only the additional damage that can be saved against.

Baaltharus
15-01-2007, 18:20
Its not additional damage the durable rule saves against, its the final hit that would destroy the thunderbolt. When it takes a hit on its last point of damage on a roll of a 6 that damage is ignored and keeps flying as normal. I know a guy who was play testing it down at Games Day and this was how it worked.

In fluff terms its supposed to be the rugged design keeps it flying despite the damage suffered.

AL.

SAMAS
15-01-2007, 20:31
The holofield save represents them being harder to hit rather than being hard to damage (despite the roll being a save against damage), exactly as they should be. On average 33% of hits will have gone through the shimmering image of where they were, rather than where they are. However, it would be better if the roll was to negate hits, as that would increase the chance of damaging them a little.

IIRC, it's done like that for the same reasons as Armor saves in 40K. While in a literal sense, you would put them after the hit roll, gameplay wise it's more dramatic to do it after the damage is done, as the player gets one last chance to save his unit.

New Cult King
15-01-2007, 20:32
... the Chaos player lost all his Hell Blades (with 1 hit they go down fast).

Hmm. I got the impression from the rules that the Chaos fighters are much like Imperial TIE Fighters from Star Wars... looks like that is the case ;)

The Judge
15-01-2007, 21:08
They are, model-wise a LOT smaller as well.

Hellebore
16-01-2007, 11:34
Traditional Eldar fragility no longer applies in the air as all aircraft are lightly armoured, if anything the rule is turned on its head as the Eldar are best suited to light weight maneouverability and protection. In this case the Eldars weaponry is what has taken the knock, the likes of shuriken weapons not being as effective as the less sophisticated but more powerful autocannons. And I would totally disagree about the points, Chaos look one of the best air craft as they can just about match the imperials for firepower, the Eldar for speed and manouverability and cost less than ork aircraft. Learn to use them right and 3 nighthawks will be hard pressed against 7 hell blades.

Al.

Yeah, this is something I noticed - the armour and resilience of aircraft is limited in ALL races, so the eldar suffer proportionately less.

Technically, the only reason eldar armys are 'glass hammers' has to do with game balance - there isn't any real background reason for eldar vehicles not using energy AND holofields, or thicker armour. They are more advanced than everyone else, but GW wouldn't make much money if you only required 10 models to make an eldar army.

Why they don't give all their troops 3+ armour saves has nothing to do with background and all to do with game balance.


It's just funny when they finally make a game where the balance imposed 'fragility' can't be used.

Hellebore

orangesm
16-01-2007, 14:14
Or everyone is fragile. But this game you can just have 2 Eldar aircraft - FW is not to concerned, they make things cause it is cool, not to make loads of cash off of 14 year olds.

Izza
16-01-2007, 19:47
This gets my goat.
People who havent even played the game are whinging "Eldar are overpowered" wa wa fckn wa.

Its the numbers game that does it in for Eldar aircraft. For 2 Nightwings you can take 3 tbolts, or 3 lightnings with skystrikes or a combination.

What do Eldar lack? Long range weapons!
Skystrikes and Lascannons can be hitting them even before they can fire a shot.

The way I read the t-bolt save is that if it as 1 hit left, and it takes another hit, it may attempt the 6+ save.

marv335
16-01-2007, 23:28
actually, i was the original complainant and i have played a game.
the range is less of an issue as the eldar are fast, manuvreable, and have highly skilled pilots. it's easier for them to get you in their sights, and once there, keep you there.
in a game system where you only get four attempts to shoot per game, and at best 2/3 of your shots miss with 1/2 the successful hits causing damage. saving 1/3 of the inflicted damage is a very significant factor.
i plan to have an air wing for all races so i'm not playing "bash the space pixie" here. i was saying, in relation to the other races the eldar have a serious advantage.

Naghaz
17-01-2007, 06:00
This gets my goat.
People who havent even played the game are whinging "Eldar are overpowered" wa wa fckn wa.




I've not even taken part in this thread until now but was prompted to by your childish manner. Have you taken the time to read through the thread? Obviously the people who raised a concern have in fact played some games. In fact, I have not witnessed anyone, outside of you, pushing an opinion without first backing the opinion up with either real experience with the game or similar.

The game based webistes I post on most often generally avoid this site just as they did the old GW forums. This is largely due to posters like yourself, who simply cannot wait to flame, bait and attempt to push profanity thru a filter. I remain one of those stalwart users however, that continues to enjoy Warseer despite it's rather gentle administration. Regardless, I still find myself unable and unwilling to accept negative posts that serve no purpose nor serve the thread they are entered in. Perhaps if you had posted some of your own experience with the game, your opinion would carry some weight albeit portrayed like a childish tantrum by your wording...

You want experience with the Eldar, read the actual replies in this thread. Want more? Play the game, thats what we did and over the weekend with four seperate games under our belt I find myself agreeing with the original poster and that's saying quite a lot considering I am in fact, an Eldar player in AI. Remember this is a game we play, and all players are supposed to enjoy the experience not just those of us who play Eldar...

Forbiddenknowledge
17-01-2007, 13:36
FW had to have a way of representing their holofields, and I think its worked well. They are not overpowered, as as was said, you can hve 3 tbolts for 2 nwings, so you're gonna outnumber them. When they are hammering one of yours, you can have another one coming in for the kill.

I played a game, and a tbolt hammered one of my nightwings to dust in a round of shooting, before i could pull of some of our fancy moves and get on their tails, I was down a bird.

Naghaz
17-01-2007, 15:48
FW had to have a way of representing their holofields, and I think its worked well. They are not overpowered, as as was said, you can hve 3 tbolts for 2 nwings, so you're gonna outnumber them. When they are hammering one of yours, you can have another one coming in for the kill.

I played a game, and a tbolt hammered one of my nightwings to dust in a round of shooting, before i could pull of some of our fancy moves and get on their tails, I was down a bird.

Ive got another game tonight against (unfortunately proxied) chaos so well see how that goes. As this is an entirely new system it will take a bit of time for everyone to work the kinks out and find the proper fit. Currently, with everyone in our group fitting the newbie category, were finding the Eldar are the nastiest thus far and remain undefeated. I doubt this trend will continue however as we get more used the mechanics and figure out ways to deal with them.

The systems is quite fun however and may become a favorite here given a bit more time. Im going to order up another set of ships today just so we have some options, now to decide between some new IG stuff or trying out Tau

Anathema
17-01-2007, 15:51
First off, eloquently put Naghaz.

Secondly, while I admit that the holo-field does look pretty damn good when you look at the stats need to down a plane, what Forbiddenknowledge says has merit. While the Nightwings are chasing down some of your planes, the 'spare' ones can be getting in behind them and getting on their sixes. Weight of numbers can be used to mob them out from pulling killing manouvres because they can't afford the potential risk of being even further outnumbered if it puts them in a risky position. Thats kind of how I expect Chaos air wings to function, with the inferior yet more numerous fighters mobbing outnumbered foes.
However only much gaming will tell.
I hope their not overpowered as I'm planning on getting an Eldar wing myself and the last thing I want is more complaining when I use my dazzling tactical genius to down my foes.:D

orangesm
17-01-2007, 15:52
Battle reports are always welcome, not necessarily a turn by turn, but lessons learned and like the key things that happened. This provides everyone with an idea of how the battle went and if it there was a mistake by a player or something is overpowered.

From the sound of it Eldar are probably the best starting force for a new player to AeroImp because they are powerful. But I could be wrong here as they are not very numerous.

Forbiddenknowledge
17-01-2007, 16:22
From my first game, I would have to say - flying straight at the enemy, then getting on their 6 is a bad tactic, I lost a bird trying to get behind them. I would have been better off using my speed and manouvreability to fly wide round their flanks, then close on them and hammer them.

Izza
18-01-2007, 03:05
I've not even taken part in this thread until now but was prompted to by your childish manner. Have you taken the time to read through the thread? Obviously the people who raised a concern have in fact played some games. In fact, I have not witnessed anyone, outside of you, pushing an opinion without first backing the opinion up with either real experience with the game or similar.

The game based webistes I post on most often generally avoid this site just as they did the old GW forums. This is largely due to posters like yourself, who simply cannot wait to flame, bait and attempt to push profanity thru a filter. I remain one of those stalwart users however, that continues to enjoy Warseer despite it's rather gentle administration. Regardless, I still find myself unable and unwilling to accept negative posts that serve no purpose nor serve the thread they are entered in. Perhaps if you had posted some of your own experience with the game, your opinion would carry some weight albeit portrayed like a childish tantrum by your wording...

You want experience with the Eldar, read the actual replies in this thread. Want more? Play the game, thats what we did and over the weekend with four seperate games under our belt I find myself agreeing with the original poster and that's saying quite a lot considering I am in fact, an Eldar player in AI. Remember this is a game we play, and all players are supposed to enjoy the experience not just those of us who play Eldar...

Sorry, but I cant simply let this slide.
1. Yes I have read the thread.
2. Yes I own the book (and have read it)
3. Yes I have played games.

SO I have some experience on which to base my opinions.
I think people are a bit too quick to jump on the "x,y,z are overpowered, cheesey, beardy etc" bandwagon and start complaining. Look at the marine bashing that goes on in this forum, look at the Eldar bashing after the new coex release.
I mean, how long as AI been out?

What I believe, from my experiences so far, is that this game relies more on tactics and fore thought than it does on, whos got the badest aircraft.


I will however, apologise for to marv335 for my original post. I think I should have considered and digested the topic a little more before responding, rather than the implusive rely that I made.

marv335
18-01-2007, 11:20
I will however, apologise for to marv335 for my original post. I think I should have considered and digested the topic a little more before responding, rather than the implusive rely that I made.

no problem.
this thread wasn't meant to ba a "OMFG teh elderz r soooo broken11!!!1oneone" thread.

you're right though, this is meant to be a thoughtful, tactical game.
one that rewards co-ordinated use of forces.
the problem is that when using the advanced rules (which i assumed most of us would be), with the limited ammo, and in small points value games.
then the save becomes a larger factor.
in bigger games it may become less of a factor.

mageboltrat
19-01-2007, 21:49
So far I have played 4 games, with orks. I have yet to play against Eldar, but from what I've found having numbers is a great advantage, I swarm against Imperials, against Eldar I'm getting 2 ork fightaz for every nightwing. My opponent who has ordered Eldar (he's currently borrowing models) is really worried that he is going to get slaughtered

Nemoyo
20-01-2007, 11:09
I agree, outnumbering can be a major factor. In the case of 2 to 1 half your planes will still be avilable to move/react after you know exactly where each Eldar plane will be.

marv335
20-01-2007, 12:16
I agree, outnumbering can be a major factor. In the case of 2 to 1 half your planes will still be avilable to move/react after you know exactly where each Eldar plane will be.

not really, you choose your manouvres secretly at the start of the turn.
you don't know where the eldar plane is going. you will only be able to react to his movement in the turn after he's moved.
unless you're on his tail in which case other rules come into play.

Nemoyo
20-01-2007, 12:21
Yes but even with a maneuver chosen you can still react. Often you can decide when you are going to play it, turn left or right, climb or dive.

ml2sjw
20-01-2007, 12:30
e eldar plane is going. you will only be able to react to his movement in the turn after he's moved.
unless you're on his tail in which case other rules come into play.

But you can take an educated guess on where he is going to be a position your fighters to cover these angles, the more fighters you have the more areas you can cover and the less chance he has of escaping

mageboltrat
20-01-2007, 19:11
It is very easy to change where you are after deciding your cards, All you need to do is make sure you are targeting one of his planes. A 90 degree turn, at speed 6 allows you to cover an awefull lot of space seeing as you can turn at any point in your move and either left or right. I personally think I will slaughter eldar.

Martin Ellis
26-09-2007, 01:51
Here is a fix for this "Overpowered problem"

If you achieve ace status against Eldar opponents... i.e 5 kills.
You ace skill negates the Holofield rule. :angel:

Simply your pilot has figured that shooting around the hologram is more likley to hit them that actually shooting at the holofield.:)

however the interesting thing is....

A holo image is visual. if you were necron and were perhaps hard wired to a radar or infrared display, you would assume that a holofield image would be pointless.

And what about against a seeker missile of some sort?:confused:

HarkonGreywolf
26-09-2007, 09:05
From what I've just read on one of the other threads, the new Tactica Aeronautica Volume has increased the points cost of two of the Eldar planes by 10 points each!

Sort of supports the view that Eldar were slightly unbalanced eh? ;)

HG

fattdex
26-09-2007, 09:49
ha, probably the big boys.

sanguinary_lord
26-09-2007, 13:01
On the bright side it just got cheaper to collect an eldar force :)

mageboltrat
27-09-2007, 13:13
Well they seem to have went with my suggestion... maybe it was a misprint originally and they didn't want to admit it.


Me:
Q. Did they misprint the cost of the Vampire Hunter and Raider?

If you compare a Phoenix and a Vampire Hunter, the Hunter gets a better weapon load out and had double the hit points of the Phoenix and loses access to the 2 very high cards. My gut feeling is that it is quite a bit better than a Phoenix, but it is 8 points less. If you compare it to a Thunderbolt for 2 points more it is getting a far better load out, a higher top speed and almost twice the durability. My general feeling is they misprinted it and VHs should be 32 not 22 points and VRs should be 34 not 24. Is it possible to check with them?



Forgeworld
A: ???

All pts values are an abstraction, assigning a arbitrary value to something is never very presice. Players tend to put more importance on them that is really due. In the end it’s not a science, just a subjective opinion, and whilst 22 looks low to you, and might be a bit low, it won’t effect the game overly – bombers are generally less useful that fighters, because you don’t get to use them as often, so what’s the points value of that? Go with the printed pts, and beware Eldar in scenarios where they use bombers - I’d counter with aircraft with extra damage weapons to give me the best chance of doing the extra hits I’ll need.

Alias the Jester
30-09-2007, 10:57
Well I have to say that the forge world answer seemed pretty much, " Erm , well , ya see, erm, Oopps !"

Ah well my vampires have just increased in price by 50%, but in my opinion and has been shared by others here , they did seem strangely cheap for what you got.

ATJ

Tyra_Nid
30-09-2007, 13:55
Ah well my vampires have just increased in price by 50%, but in my opinnion and has been shared by others here , they did seem strangely cheep for what you got.

Yep. And they are still pretty good value, imho!

okri_the_blue
01-10-2007, 13:45
don't know about that niddy a little over but i admit they were undercosted before. o well at leat my phoenix's will get a look in now.

Bob5000
02-10-2007, 20:41
Is there actually a game system that Eldar have not been put forward as overpowered ?
40K
Battlefleet Gothic
Now AI

I would wager this has also been put forward in Epic ( if I was a betting person ) and every other system Eldar appear in .

SonofUltramar
02-10-2007, 22:00
Thats because they are immensely powerful in BFG to the point of being broken, were and still are fairly hard in 40K but never had a problem there though and i've never played against them in AI but with FW changing their points cost dramatically it does speak volumes.

Really want a game of AI now

woo hoo over 300 posts, get in:)

Cry of the Wind
03-10-2007, 03:18
The point about outnumbering the Eldar as a balancer is a good one. In all the games I've played so far, once one side became out numbered they started to lose (unless the dice switched sides...). With the new points adjustment I think we'll start hearing less about cheesy Eldar and more about strategies to work around the low model count. Then again all Eldar are all cheesy gits anyway :p

Math Mathonwy
03-10-2007, 12:44
I would wager this has also been put forward in Epic ( if I was a betting person ) and every other system Eldar appear in .
Well, they received a rather massive revision where they were severely toned down and lost several universal Eldar special rules. So yeah.

horizon
03-10-2007, 13:19
Thats because they are immensely powerful in BFG to the point of being broken, were and still are fairly hard in 40K but never had a problem there though and i've never played against them in AI but with FW changing their points cost dramatically it does speak volumes.


That's why the unofficial Eldar MMS ruleset in Battlefleet Gothic is rather popular. No more broken Eldar. And its a list which gets attention on not being overpowered.

Niibl
03-10-2007, 16:17
I have to note that noone whines about the incredible amount of ammo those eldar have.
In my games against them I didn't care about my losses but about the surviving planes running dry befor turn #8.
Luckily my opponent does not concentrate on destroying those with ammo left as he is too impulsive for that but once he does it might become very difficult to win.
ATM we win by VP only which does not feel like victory at all :(

Nemoyo
04-10-2007, 10:03
I think Eldar having more ammo is necessary bearing in mind that a single Eldar fighter has to last in the fight longer by virtue that it will almost certainly be outnumbered.

Alias the Jester
04-10-2007, 15:21
As Nemoyo has said if Eldar Craft were equipped with the same amount of ammo as other races , We would be having to bug out half way through a mission, due to sheer number of targets needing shooting down.

Baaltharus
04-10-2007, 23:21
No way are Eldar overpowered in AI, the fact that their outgunned and outnumbered by almost every other air fleet in the game more than makes up for their advantages. It'd be different if the Eldar guns rapid firing guns damaged on something more than 5+ but getting enough planes into positions to down the enemy without being blown apart first is often difficult.

DarkAzrael169
05-10-2007, 05:57
First of all, I started Eldar because I thought they where powerful and have a whole bunch of advantages IE: Good starting force. But, I am fighting chaos or orks... but moslty Imperials. I am always outnumbered and outgunned. Either where I play there all being immature or there too childish, because I usually pull out of a fight and try to come in and get a better angle on a run through my opponets (Opponetes- PLURAL) or just get really low to the deck and avoid tell I get a clean shot. They call me a chicken or a coward. It's kind of hard to have fun playing with my Eldar. Because I get crap for just being Eldar in the first place. I want to start up Chaos, but not if their still gona only have one hitpoint.
They were the first squadron I played (Starting games- testing out the game) and boy do they die fast. So really if you think Eldar are overpowered lets go over this:

DISADVATAGES
1. They are outnumbered
2. They have no long range
3. They have horrible guns even at close range!!! (Shuriken Cannons are horrible compared to autocannons)
4. They are even more expensive now
5. They ae not very forgiving... Oh look I lost a bird, I have 3 left you have like ten ork fightas or more.

ADVANTAGES
1. Unless your in a campaign there not that good. I lost a bird ok I saved him with his pilot skill test!!! IE: Pilot skill
2. Their really fast
3. Their really maneuverable

Wow other than that they are definitely not overpowered... Maybe we should be speaking about how UNDERPOWERED THEY ARE.

SonofUltramar
05-10-2007, 08:53
I haven't received my copy of TA yet but I was under the impression that only the Vampires got more expensive?

Also if they have 10 planes to your 4 then you may want to check the points values out as that doesn't sound right unless you are playing an all Hell Blade force, and as you pointed out they have only one hit so its not that much of a mismatch as you can use Very High Maneouvres just like them and have a better Pilot Skill value allowing more sustained fire and advanced tailing?

Anaris
05-10-2007, 11:19
Yeah, I played my 4th game of AI last night and was outnumbered 8 to 5 in a 140 point game.

Thinking back on the game now, the only Advanced Rule we used was Ammo, but the I reckon that the game would have been very different had we been using the Sustained Fire rule as well. Despite getting 2 of my Nightwings shot down and my Vampire crashing due to an illegal manoeuvre I inflicted damage on almost every Imperial aircraft in the game and this was usually only due to one burst at close range.

Add in the ability to get 50% more shots 2/3's of the time and I reckon half the planes I damaged would have been shot down.

I don't think Eldar are overpowered in the game, but I reckon you certainly need to play with all the advanced rules to allow them to use the high pilot skill that probably goes a long way into justifying their points costs.

Baaltharus
05-10-2007, 11:47
Sustained fire won't make as much difference as you'd think unless your guns are good in the first place, with quad autocannons at mid range it'll rip most fighters to pieces with ease.

Shuriken cannons however will usually be lucky to do a point of damage dependent upon altitude. You'll usually have more luck with your bright lances but then again its no sure fire thing and you'll be running down your ammo pretty quickly (if you can do it at all, I failed 5/6 attempts in the last game, for shame...)

steinerp
05-10-2007, 13:40
That's not totally true. Sustained fire will help you run out of ammo quicker so you can get off the board without giving up VP's. :)

Note: This is 1/2 joking and 1/2 true as IMO Eldar really do need to play the VP game. And I do wish we had small ammo loads, subtract one from every ammo count and the Eldar would win alot more games I think.

kris.sherriff
06-10-2007, 23:04
Very intelligent post steinerp.
Its one of the ways I have won games with my chaos. Using up all of your ammo in small games damaging enemy craft then bugging out and there by not giving up any VP is a sure way to win.

Kris

SonofUltramar
06-10-2007, 23:14
That's not totally true. Sustained fire will help you run out of ammo quicker so you can get off the board without giving up VP's. :)

Note: This is 1/2 joking and 1/2 true as IMO Eldar really do need to play the VP game. And I do wish we had small ammo loads, subtract one from every ammo count and the Eldar would win alot more games I think.

That is a very good point and while it is a games mechanic to help you win games it is also a very good (realistic) thing to do, get in blast away then bug out before you get taken out. This is also a reason for not taking Skystrikes or Lightning Strikes as it can be a nightmare getting rid of the missiles?

Very characterful for Eldar I guess as it should feel like they've mugged you by the time the game has ended?

Now i in no way condone Chaos players doing this as they smell and are frustrating to play, or maybe thats just Kris:p

Tyra_Nid
07-10-2007, 10:27
Sustained fire will help you run out of ammo quicker so you can get off the board without giving up VP's.

Absolutely. My Eldar opponent fires extra dakka every time for this very reason!