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Christine
13-01-2007, 20:31
So I finally laid down some pennies and bought a copy of Double Eagle today as I figured I really ought to do some research into air war in the 40k universe prior to playing AI. One of the things that's become apparent already is that there a several designs of aircraft in the book which haven't made their way to the tabletop yet and I was wondering (a) whether anyone feels we are ever likely to see them make it and (b) if not if there is any interest in seeing if we can't work out some designs and rules for the aircraft that only exist in the book.

I know I know I'm never satisfied with what I have!

rkunisch
13-01-2007, 21:18
I would expect some more aircraft if Aeronautica Imperialis is (and continues to be) successful. First impression is, that the people really like it, but I have no idea what this means in sales numbers.

I think I will hope for the best. :D

Have fun,

Rolf.

Slekith
14-01-2007, 00:28
I would expect some more aircraft if Aeronautica Imperialis is (and continues to be) successful. First impression is, that the people really like it, but I have no idea what this means in sales numbers.

I think I will hope for the best. :D

Have fun,

Rolf.

Let's all hope it is so, that way we'll see a wide variety of aircrafts in the future, right now most races have only 2 aircrafts (fighter and bomber) and there's not much of a choice.

marv335
14-01-2007, 00:54
there isn't a great need for more aircraft as i see it.
the imperial navy have a decent selection, marines don't have any (bar thunderhawks as per codex astartes) eldar are quite nasty enough with what they have. tau are well supplied, good luck shooting a manta down, orks maybe need a transport of some kind, as do chaos. necrons don't have aircraft and the 'nids can't fly fast enough.
i'm happy with the range. i'll probably pick up a small air wing for most races eventually. enough for the smaller engagements.

CELS
14-01-2007, 01:10
Oh, there could always be more aircraft! Interceptors, fighters, fighter-bombers, bombers and transports should be quite common. And different types of each sort. Some fighters would be very manoeuverable, others would be dead-fast. Some fighters would be purely atmospheric, others capable of flying in space (not just deploy from orbit).

A huge part of wargaming, for me and a lot of other people, is dreaming up concepts for a new army/fleet/squadron/warband and then taking your time choosing the armylist, converting the models and painting them. Being able to customise your force. You lose a bit of this when it's "You want Chaos? Here's your Hell Blades and Hell Talons. That's it! Have fun with those the next ten years."

PS: I wouldn't mind seeing some retro-futuristic prop-planes, like the Cyclones in Double Eagle. I'd paint them chrome, and it would be awesome.

greenmtvince
14-01-2007, 01:14
I doubt most of the Double Eagle aircraft will make it to AI. As I recall, many of those prop driven aircraft were a local design for the PDF, not an STC.

There was a Chaos heavy bomber I believe that had some potential, and I think an Imperial Heavy lift aircraft, something akin to a C-5, that could make their way into the 40K mainstream though.

orangesm
14-01-2007, 05:10
Over at Tactical Command (http://www.tacticalwargames.net/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=78;t=8336), there is already work being done on rules for the Ork Landa (http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us?do=List_Models&code=302903&orignav=300814&ParentID=253169&GameNav=300808). This fills the void of an Ork transport.

Important aircraft to develop first are those to fill the roles missing for various forces. For example Chaos do not have a transport or rather a unique transport. I am not even certain whether or not Traitor Legions have Thunderhawks since they continue to use the Dreadclaw for their drop pod and/or boarding vessel. The first requirement I think for adding any aircraft or variation of an aircraft is to find the existance of it in some background material. The second is the need for it in the list.

So would Cyclones be cool - yes, very... especially for a late Industrial World PDF. I think any PDF force of sufficient technological level will at least have Thunderbolts. Cyclones could be of STC design, the STC was able to produce any thing to fit the needs of its original users. If there was not a need for jet powered aircraft or the aircraft for the colonist had to be 'easier' to maintain then a rotary propeller driven aircraft makes sense.

So if Chaos has a Fighter and a Bomber, then they need a transport. What about a large Chaos behemoth transport? Something remarkedly large to deliever large numbers of cultist to battle quickly. Possibly even a small space transport (half a Manta - to a Manta in size).

TheBlueGrassGamer
14-01-2007, 12:59
Greetings,


As I recall, many of those prop driven aircraft were a local design for the PDF, not an STC.

I apologize, but that's not quiet true. Nearly all war machines used by the Imperial forces, from the Rhino to the Wolfcub, were either based on an STC design or a modified STC design that (eventually) met with approval from the Tech Adepts.

Given that Commander Jadgea flew a Magog during the Phantine liberation and that just about every Phantime pilot seemed to recognize the 'Cubs, Magogs, and Cyclones I'd say it is a safe bet that each aircraft is either an STC design or a modified STC design. There are several times in the novel that explicitly state why the 'Cubs, Magogs, and Cyclones are relegated to PDF duty: their extreme age. Every time one of the Phantine recognizes one of those aircraft, there is always a comment about how old they are. It was never specifically stated whether or not the Shrike dive-bombers were brought in with the Navy or were maintained by the local PDF. At any case, the Phantine recognized the Shrike as well.

For a real-world example, in the case of the Cubs and the Thunderbolt -- it is like trying to compare the Vampire to the modern F-16. If you try comparing the Cyclone to the Thunderbolt, it be like comparing the P-40 Warhawk and the modern F-16. The P-40 was a creat fighter in its age, but it'd be outclassed by the F-16 in this day and age.

Anyway, I'm white Corporal Christine on this one. I want to see the fighters and bombers (both Imperial and Chaotic) form Double Eagle to make an appearance in AI. Although, you know what I'd really love to see in AI? An Epic-scale version of the land carrier mentioned in the novel.....

Thanks,
The Bluegrass Gamer

Sojourner
14-01-2007, 13:19
Yet, though, if you were to build new Vampires tomorrow they'd make eminently serviceable attack aircraft - and probably do quite well against - say, Dirka Dirkastan whose equipment is equally old and dilapidated.

ml2sjw
14-01-2007, 14:01
on the chaos transport front, i'd like to see something a bit different not just in effect a variation on some other races craft, i,e a lite manta

Also the need for a fluff precident is absolute rubbish, the hell talon and hell blade didn't exist before forge world made them, neither did the lightening the maurader destoryer, etc etc. I'd say as long as it doesn't go against the feel of a race and you can justify it its fine in my book

Now back on point, somthing about the chaos fighters just screams cylons from battle star galatica for me, can never put my finger on it maybe its the crew setup in the helltallon maybe its the general styling but its the case for me none the less.

Because of this i'd draw my inspiration for the chaos transport from Battle star galacitca and this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cylon_Heavy_Raider

The cylon heavy raider

Now i'm yet to receive my book from forge world yet(grumble moan whine bitch) so stats are a bit tricky.

But I'd see it as a fast manoeuvrable raider to keep with the feeling of the other chaos ships. A transport capacity roughly twice that of a valkarie or 2/3 of a thawk. Possibly the same as the orca drop ship.

Armour and survivability i'd like to keep in line with the other chaos fighters maybe a few more hit points

Armament now personally i'd like to keep the * "6-barrel KEW (Kinetic Energy Weapon) capable of extreme firing rates." of the inspiration. A battery of autocannon or similar with similar characteristics to the Orks weapons would do nicely, with the ability to take out ground targets as well as air to air. but with an extremely limited ammo capacity(2-3 bursts) with maybe the option to take some ground attack rockets


What do people think might it work?

Athmos
15-01-2007, 13:00
well, at least 2 aircrafts exist in epic but not in AI : the marine landing craft (a stuffed out Thunderhawk able to carry up to 6 rhinos or 4 land Raiders), and the ork landa (a large troop lander/transporter). They have models in the specialist range.

Tyranids also have 2 flying creature in the list, Harrdidan and vituperator, and i guess you could have some gargoyle swarm as well, but the models arn't available anymore (and the vituperator was never made anyway). And flying creature probably couldn't fly as fast as true aircrafts, but they probably could have something of their own to be able to fight (drifting AA spore mines ?)

dark eldar have a few aircraft in Wh40k FW range, essentially variations on the "standard" eldar aircraft, my guess is that they'll make it in Epic scale soon enough.

Necrons certainly could have some stuff, but they currently don't.

Athmos

Tastyfish
20-01-2007, 19:54
Is the 'Land Carrier' a flying aircraft carrier thing ala Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow? That is certainly something I'd love to see.

As for Tyranids, if they can produce starships and other interstellar craft, they would have no problem producing combat aircraft. Some adapted gas giant dweller/Hindenthrope with several long ranged guns, some faster gas giant beasts with a squidlike jet propulsion ejecting spore clouds (that would compensate for the lack of maneuvability) as they go and swarms of slower moving gargoyles following them.

Is there really not a niche for a slow moving but incredably maneuvable race?

mageboltrat
20-01-2007, 20:04
I would be really grateful if people would have a look at this thread and give me their opinions on the Ork Landa I would really like to get some more feedback, as I feel we really need to get it into the game in some form as soon as possible, I want to be able to play all the missions in the book and I have 2 of them already with AI bases.

ORK LANDA RULES (http://www.tacticalwargames.net/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=78;t=8336)

There is also a picture of a very nice flying fortress of the Air Captain stable, but orky. Oh and on the Chaos Landa subject, some of the chaos legions had converted over to thunderhawks by the time of the Heresy, others still were mainly Stormbirds, so a chaos thunderhawk wouldn't be entirely out of character.

orangesm
20-01-2007, 20:25
Here (http://z8.invisionfree.com/Airspace/index.php?showtopic=107&st=0&#last) is some work being done on ideas and concepts for a Chaos Transport from the same Forgeworld as the Hell Blade and Hell Talon.

Baaltharus
20-01-2007, 23:01
On that link page someone says the stormhawks larger than the thunderhawk, this is wrong. The Thunderhawk was the better aircraft with more transport capability and better armour hence why it was supposed to replace the older model.

Al.

Baaltharus
20-01-2007, 23:05
Ork landa shouldnt have jump troops, this is an elite skill, something pretty much beyond your standard ork. The likes of stormboyz don't even have the option to deep strike anyway so its a bit of a dodgy rule if you ask me.

The other option is make landing jump troops more dangerous with more chances of being killed. Maybe a negative 1 modifier for landing safely from heights above 0, example height 1 you fail on a 1-2, height 3 you fail on a 1-3.

Al.

Rictus
20-01-2007, 23:33
On that link page someone says the stormhawks larger than the thunderhawk, this is wrong. The Thunderhawk was the better aircraft with more transport capability and better armour hence why it was supposed to replace the older model.

Al.

It's the other way round, a Stormbird is much larger than a Thunderhawk. According to the Horus Heresy novels anyway.


Ork landa shouldnt have jump troops, this is an elite skill, something pretty much beyond your standard ork. The likes of stormboyz don't even have the option to deep strike anyway so its a bit of a dodgy rule if you ask me.

The other option is make landing jump troops more dangerous with more chances of being killed. Maybe a negative 1 modifier for landing safely from heights above 0, example height 1 you fail on a 1-2, height 3 you fail on a 1-3.

Al.

I would of thought if there was ever a species more likely to strap a rocket to their backs and leap out of an aircraft it would be an Ork, skilled or not.

There already is in the rules greater risk for Jump Troops landing. The higher the altitude of the aircraft when they deploy the greater the chance they have of being killed or scattered. I won't write the rule here as it's against Forum rules to give rules out (I believe) but trust me when I say it's in there.

orangesm
20-01-2007, 23:39
That decision for having jump troops in the Landa is because in Epic games players regularly put a unit of 8 Stormboyz in a Landa and Air Assault with them.

Your opinion that Ork Landas should not have jump troops is based on the fact that they do not have Deep Strike in 40k. They are jump troops and could jump from the door of a Landa on to a target. Reasons they may not be able to do this in 40k - the Codex is what 7 years old?, when they jump from a Landa the target area is normally larger than than a 40k Table?

If you have a reference for the Stormhawks information please share as this solves the need for a Chaos Marine transport/gunship.

spacemonkey
22-01-2007, 05:46
If AI does well, I do believe we'll see some Dark Eldar craft enter the fray (at least 2 aircraft have already been developed for Imp Armour II).

As for things needed:
As others have stated Orks and Chaos should have some transport option.
I believe Orks should also have a heavy bomber type aircraft.
More AA ground models/options.

I think Necron aircraft would also be sweet, something like the Death Gliders from Stargate or the alien fighters from the movie Independence Day. Necron Pylons could be used for AA.

CELS
22-01-2007, 06:30
If you have a reference for the Stormhawks information please share as this solves the need for a Chaos Marine transport/gunship.
"Six stormbirds sat on launch carriages. Heavy, armoured delivery vehicles, they were void capable, bt also honed and sleek for atmospheric work. (...)
'... known as stormbirds,' the iterator was saying as he walked them forward. 'The actual pattern type is Warhawk VI. Most expedition forces are now reliant on the smaller, standard construct Thunderhawk pattern (...) but the Legion has made an effort to keep these old, heavy-duty machines in service. They have been delivering the Luna Wolves into war since the start of the Great Crusade, since before that, actually. They were manufactured on Terra (...)"

Horus Rising, p 139

Baaltharus
22-01-2007, 10:47
To answer the stormboyz question I would say that using the jump pack rule isn't out of the question but if it were implemented it should be harder for Orks due to the very basic construction of their 'jump packs' and their natural goofiness. The change to the rules is suggested is above. The rules might be a laugh as well as balancing the potentially huge transport capability. Course you could easily enough change the landas points if you felt it was too cheap or too expensive.

As for the Horus Heresy books well I'm not too sure about them especially Dan Abnetts first one, I like the Gaunts Ghosts books and Double Eagle but I think he should stay away from marines. Plus, if the Horus Heresy books follow the painfully poor adaption of the Heresy that the Art work books did then I wouldn't jump on using anything from them. That said I must apologise for my comments, been a while since I read the book, thought it was the other way round. That said there must be reasons for the Thunderhawk replacing it. Maybe its not as well armoured or lacks the firepower.

Al.

CELS
22-01-2007, 10:55
The nature of the Stormbird has been discussed in the 40k background forum, I believe. Basically, with the Thunderhawk being STC, there's a fair chance it's more advanced. Furthermore, one might assume that since Space Marines are so valuable, commanders found it more tactically sound to spread them around a bit rather than putting all their eggs in one basket.

Say what you will about Dan Abnett's handling of the fluff, but I can't imagine why anyone would object to the 'fluff' about the Stormbirds.

Slekith
22-01-2007, 12:13
I think AI is a commendable work because it keeps things simple. The more "specilal rules" you add the more slow the game plays. AI is about smart manouvering, no ammo waste and have a fun afternoon with your friends.

BarmyBob
23-01-2007, 14:21
A friend and I have been playing our own version of AI for a year or so now. We scratch built models at a 1:72 type scale. We have some of the flyers mentioned in Double Eagle, or at least our versions of them.
Why not scratch build them for your game? Wouldnt be very hard at that scale,a few dollops of modelling putty and Bob's Your Uncle. You could work out your own stat lines for them. Sort of putting the word "hobby" back into the hobby if you know what I mean. Historical gamers do it all the time......

BarmyBob
23-01-2007, 14:24
I think AI is a commendable work because it keeps things simple. The more "specilal rules" you add the more slow the game plays. AI is about smart manouvering, no ammo waste and have a fun afternoon with your friends.

The thing with aeroplane games is that they reward those who shoot. Tis far more honourable to leave the table with no ammo than to be shot down. If you like simple fast fun games you should check out a game called Aerodrome. It's WWI planes and dogfighting and its total beer and pretzels.
As I mentioned in another post a friend and I have been playing 40k-ish dogfights for a year or two now. We scratch built 1:72-ish scale planes and used basic Aerodrome rules for it.