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View Full Version : Exactly when did they invent the Adeptus Astartes?



venusianfurs
14-07-2005, 16:09
http://www.coasbooks.com/si/1012.html
Look at the publishing date on that. GW could be in serious trouble..!

TenTailedCat
14-07-2005, 16:13
Interesting. i don't think Rogue Trader even came out until 1985 or some such time. We'll have to wait for one of the ancients to waddle along on their Zimmerframes to know for sure though.

venusianfurs
14-07-2005, 16:18
The irony, that GW might be in breach of copyright - you couldn't make it up! Though I doubt much would come of it, the giant that they are - they've probably been waiting for this for years, with all they've plagiarised - sometime this day would come...

TenTailedCat
14-07-2005, 16:27
Wouldn't this be better off in the 'other GW discussion' though? Since it's more about copyright infringment than it is about 40k fluff.

Typheron
14-07-2005, 16:36
i think, given the timescale of GWs use of the material and the fact they have a legal department to rival that of microsoft that there gonna be ok, and yes this is not background stuff it should be in 40k general.

also the term "space marine" is fairly generic to science fiction and can be found inserveral locations and stories. Theres nothign on that page other than the name "Space Marines ; Tactical Ground Combat" which could be any kind of sci fi universe. theres no pictures so we dont even know what they look like and if there yellow aliens in leaves calling themselfs space marines i dont there that that is a close enough link.

RT was copywrited in 1987, or so it says on my copy.

Sai-Lauren
14-07-2005, 16:46
Probably should be in other GW.


We'll have to wait for one of the ancients to waddle along on their Zimmerframes to know for sure though.

OI!.
Less of that kind of talk, these young whippersnappers don't know they're born. :D

RT was released with WD93, current issue is 307 (UK), so 214 months, or nearly 18 years ago - so 1987.

But as to the main point, IMO it's a tricky one. I don't think you can copyright something like the concept of "Space Marines" - to take two example from the movies, what are the Colonial Marines in Aliens or the US troopers in the big battle at the end of Moonraker?
Marines is space? GW managed to get away with it by actually producing a game called Space Marine (1st & 2nd edition epic).

If the original version is biologically engineered warrior monks, then there's probably a case. Otherwise, GW seems to have made enough work to make it their own concept.

Inquisitor Samos
14-07-2005, 17:03
I agree with Sai-Lauren..... I've got all manner of old sci-fi games that have various kinds of "space marines" mentioned in them. Most times it's as a concept broadly similar to that of GW's, i.e. armored warriors who are transported from world to world in spaceships and/or can attack from orbit, etc. However, none of these are specifically genetically-engineered warriors with all kinds of extra organs, a monastic outlook, and referred to as "Adeptus Astartes."



I agree on the other point, too, btw: buncha' cheeky young pups, been out of diapers less time than I've been playing tabletop games and buying miniatures........! :p ;)

TenTailedCat
14-07-2005, 18:55
Yes but you're all old, you'll be dead soon :)

I suppose, thinking about it, that Space Marine isn't really a very unique term, if anything I'd guess GW know enough to rip-off other ideas but make them just different enough to avoid legal action.

Karhedron
14-07-2005, 19:02
Rogue Trader came out in 1987 but to be fair, GW have nicked concepts and even names from all over the place. Carnifex, Lictor and the Terminus Est are all from the Gene Wolf novels. Chaos and all the associated gribbliness (right down to the 8-pointed star) are lifted in their entirety from Michael Moorcock's Eternal Champion series.

Seriously though, if anyone was going to sue GW for copyright, Moorcock is the leader of the pack in terms of how much of his IP they have nicked. GW had the rights to produce some models and games based on his books in the mid-80s and pretty much ran off with the lot after the license expired.

Google for Michael Moorcock, Elric and Games Workshop and you can find it all.

TenTailedCat
14-07-2005, 19:20
I wonder why he isn't kicking up a stink? GW have got filthy rich off his hard work. I'd have firebombed their HQ well before now if I were him.

swordquest
14-07-2005, 19:33
I wonder why he isn't kicking up a stink? GW have got filthy rich off his hard work. I'd have firebombed their HQ well before now if I were him.don't you know that they have a emporer class battle ship buried under their headquarters waiting to virus bomb anyone who would sue/firebomb their HQ...

Minister
14-07-2005, 22:49
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starship_Troopers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_marine

Cade
14-07-2005, 23:52
Space Marine is Copyrighted to Games Workshop.

They were the ones who were clever enough to Copyright that phrase before anyone else.

End of topic. :D

Delicious Soy
15-07-2005, 02:53
Want to see something a little more pertubatory? Look here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marathon_(computer_game)). Check out the picture then read the opening as to where they're going. :p

susu.exp
15-07-2005, 03:06
"Rogue Trader came out in 1987 but to be fair, GW have nicked concepts and even names from all over the place. Carnifex, Lictor and the Terminus Est are all from the Gene Wolf novels. Chaos and all the associated gribbliness (right down to the 8-pointed star) are lifted in their entirety from Michael Moorcock's Eternal Champion series."

Carnifex and Lictor are actual Latin words. Which have been around since about 100 B.C. I think terminus est comes from some medievan tome, though IŽd have to check. The 8 pointed star is also a pretty old symbol, 8 being a number traditionally being associated with the occult (which is an idea Prattchet plays on with the 8th color being the color of magick, etc.)

Minister
16-07-2005, 13:26
The eight pointed star is a result of Michael Moorcock's Chaos in the Eternal Champion multiverse, a source of much stuff for the Warhammer universes.

TenTailedCat
16-07-2005, 15:21
The eight pointed star has been around a lot longer than that, and is most likely ripped off from the Buddhist Dharma Wheel.

Ohman
16-07-2005, 15:51
GW (like the rest of us) get their inspiration from all over the place.

In 1960 Harry Harrison published his novel "Deathworld". It tells the tale of a man who discovers a planet where every single plant, animal and natural element is out to get him. Sound familiar?

Some people call this "ripping of" but I honestly think this is more like a tribute than an attempt to steal someone elses work. GWs writers are likely to be big fans of sci-fi/fantasy so it's only natural to find that they are heavily inspired by the work of others.

Skonar
18-07-2005, 18:15
Frankly, the characters from those books, (The natives of the 'death world',) sound like serious candidates for the inspiration for Marines - The Pyrrans, as I think they're called, are basically all muscular people who fight tooth and nail with much toughness, bloodymindedness, and stoicism. Plus they can nail something the size of a sparrow with a handgun in flight while running. Now that sounds like marine-caliber marksmanship skills to me...

Spacejens
18-07-2005, 21:06
The eight-pointed star is the symbol of random (or otherwise unpredictable), chaotic movement in some physics textbooks.

Captain Brown
18-07-2005, 22:29
Yes but you're all old, you'll be dead soon :)

I hope not! I am not old, merely experienced. Besides I am marrying a lovely lass eight years my junior so I think I am doing OK.

As for the issue of Space Marines versus Space Marine, while GW have copyright to the name, it would be difficult to prosecute someone for it if the description is different and they are not obviously plagiarizing Space Marines but rather the concept of Marines in Space. I am curious at what the exact copyright says.

I first saw Space Marines in this issue of WD 94 (http://exodite.home.comcast.net/wd_094.html) another great link is here (http://exodite.home.comcast.net/gw_products.html). Although I have to admit my own subscription did not start until issue 105 the next year when we got into Rogue Trader with both feet.

Captain Brown

jimbo034
07-10-2005, 19:49
Want to see something a little more pertubatory? Look here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marathon_(computer_game)). Check out the picture then read the opening as to where they're going. :p

and bungie the company who made that game is now owned by microsoft, they made a game called halo. so if microsoft felt so inclined they could own gw in a legal battle over the marathon symbol which i belive they own the ip for.

EDIT: oh and gw ripped off the idea for c'tan and the old ones/eldar gods from bungie as well. bungie's game pathways into darkness was about a marine who is air dropped to a pryramid on the yucatan peninsula where he and his team are supposed to detonate a nuke to stun the dreaming god long enough for an alien race known as the jjaro to move it away from earth. the jjaro originally battled the dreaming gods species (which happended to eat stars, but prefer consuming living things) in a "war in heaven" millions of years ago. the W'rkncacnter also almost killied themselves in massive battles between themselves leaving most of the remaining ones near death (the dragon) or trapped in gravity wells (the outsider in the dyson sphere). the jjaro also created just about every other race that you come into contact with in the marathon games to fight the W'rkncacnters like the old ones did in 40k.


games workshop is so original.

BaronDG
08-10-2005, 00:13
There is a difference between ripping something and paying homage to. Dan Abnett used some lovecraftiana when he mentioned the book of eibon in eisenhorn. I myself pay homage to Catullus, naming my slaaneshi space craft the Ilia rumpens. If gw were only stealing peoples ideas they wouldn't call the catachan special character Sly Marbo, they would call him John Smith...
The ancient greek coined a phrase for this: Mimesis. If you wanted to try your wings writing a work of art you copied a classic and gave it your best shot, trying to get the "feeling" of it right, showing the essential conflicts in a new way.
Thank God, gw doesn't try to be "original" because most "original ideas" are crap!

azimaith
08-10-2005, 14:16
Rogue Trader came out in 1987 but to be fair, GW have nicked concepts and even names from all over the place. Carnifex, Lictor and the Terminus Est are all from the Gene Wolf novels. Chaos and all the associated gribbliness (right down to the 8-pointed star) are lifted in their entirety from Michael Moorcock's Eternal Champion series.

Lictor, means a roman functionary who spoke to magistrates.
Carnifex is latin for an executioner of lowborn people.

Norminator
08-10-2005, 15:54
A lot of GW stuff does come from Latin/Old english. For example Orc = Evil in old English.

GW are not original - I don't know about you, but that was my first impression when I started the hobby. However, you know what they say - imitation is the greatest form of flattery.

Akhenaton
08-10-2005, 20:33
The eight-pointed star is the symbol of random (or otherwise unpredictable), chaotic movement in some physics textbooks.


Geez, now even the scientists are stealing Moorcock's ideas. ;)

BaronDG
08-10-2005, 23:07
Azmiaith gave a pretty good summary. A lictor was a bodyguard who walked in front of the roman magistrates, carrying the fasces, the one, true symbol of democracy. This habit of walking in front is what gave the name to the infiltrating tyranids.

Carnifex means "Meatmaker" and is the term for the executioner. A roman wasn't allowed to take another romans life so they had little use of executioners and there certainly wasn't other names for killers of highborn people...

Grand_Marshal_Kazan
08-10-2005, 23:18
Geez, now even the scientists are stealing Moorcock's ideas. ;)

If he could get royalties for everyone who did that...