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Irakaz
16-01-2007, 10:45
Could someone explain this maneuver to me. It seemed like quite a good tactic for me since I play chaos and any help getting extra attacks and negating enemy ranks would be very useful. Ive only seen it used once so I wasn't sure how to properly use it and any limitations placed on it.

enyoss
16-01-2007, 10:52
Alas, the maneouvre that was Lapping Round is no longer with us :(. It was culled in the transistion from 6th edition to 7th.

When it still existed, if a unit won combat and its formation already extended to the ends of its opponents formation (i.e. making expanding frontage impossible), the unit could move up to four models from its back ranks around the flanks of the enemy unit. You had to sacrifice the rank bonus these models gave though.

If you ever lost a round of combat, all lapping round models were replaced in your back ranks.

If your unit was ever subsequently charged, all lapping round models were replaced in your back ranks.

If you continued to win combats, you could end up getting models round the back of your enemy's formation.


Also, models on flanks and rear gave some of the bonuses for flank/rear attacks... although, I can't remember if they just got the +1/2 for a flank/read or nullified enemy rank bonus. I'm pretty sure they didn't get both.

Hope that helps a bit :).

Cheers,

enyoss

T10
16-01-2007, 11:13
If you used lapping round to negate enemy ranks then I can understand why you miss them. :)

The last edition allowed you to earn flank and/or rear bonuses to CR if you managed to lap around. However, lapping round did not negate rank bonuses.

-T10

enyoss
16-01-2007, 11:17
The last edition allowed you to earn flank and/or rear bonuses to CR if you managed to lap around. However, lapping round did not negate rank bonuses.


That's it... I knew it was one or the other. Never got it wrong mind... I always check my book when unsure :).

It was a great rule though, if a little complicated to work with at times. I like using huge units of Swordmasters, so it was great sending four more a turn round the flanks to get some tonking done :D.

Cheers,

enyoss

Irakaz
16-01-2007, 11:22
Ah ok. I probably would of won that combat and therefore the game then. I had two chariots and another unit about to hit the knights but they had just moved out of range of one chariot and the warriors during that extra movement. His other units were being march blocked by a marauder horse unit with axes :D and a giant held up the others.

My rematch with him should be very interesting. Khorne seems quite good, but it really costs and in the next round I would of had a flank charge, first strike with one character and two sets of impact hits and a rank bonus. He didnt exactly have much else beside that knight unit. It was only 1500 points though.

Lose and learn :)

Thanks for the help though

Mephistofeles
16-01-2007, 11:26
Wait, you charged his knights with a chariot and didn't defeat them? You must be one unlucky guy...

The Lapping Around manouver would not have helped you there I am afraid, it was only usable if you have a frontage to wide to fight with all your models, IIRC.

Irakaz
16-01-2007, 11:32
Wait, you charged his knights with a chariot and didn't defeat them? You must be one unlucky guy...

The Lapping Around manouver would not have helped you there I am afraid, it was only usable if you have a frontage to wide to fight with all your models, IIRC.
Sorry I was unclear I think. He lapped me so he go a lot of extra attacks and lost his back models so I also couldnt charge with the other two units.

edit: forgot to mention that it was only a beastmen chariot

Yes my chariot/mm/giant attack rolls are very unlucky. On the plus side he had charged me with his khorne general and chosen knights and I lost one model. I also save well on 5's and 6's, I just cant hit :p

enyoss
16-01-2007, 11:39
Sorry I was unclear I think. He lapped me so he go a lot of extra attacks and lost his back models so I also couldnt charge with the other two units.


That was always the nightmare with Lapping Round. If you measured a charge to the lapping round models, you could force them to return to the back ranks with no hope of hitting once they had done so.

In your case though, you should have been ok. Once you'd declared a charge, the Lapping Round models return to the back rank. You now move your chargers, who can now reach once the back ranks have been replaced.

Still, all this is academic, as he shouldn't have been able to lap round in the first place :).

Cheers,

enyoss

Festus
16-01-2007, 12:09
Hi

Once you'd declared a charge, the Lapping Round models return to the back rank. You now move your chargers, who can now reach once the back ranks have been replaced.
Don't have my 6th ed BRB here, but didn't the models only go back if charged - ie. actually charged and not just declared?

Festus

enyoss
16-01-2007, 12:36
Hi

Don't have my 6th ed BRB here, but didn't the models only go back if charged - ie. actually charged and not just declared?

Festus

Possibly, but we've always taken it as declaring a charge :). Otherwise it caused a real headache! For example, lets say I charge and can just contact a lapping round model. They go back to the ranks, and now I fail my charge. Now, however, they have not actually been charged, so can they go back to their lapping round position... in a position where I could have reached them after all?

I found the charge declaration to be a far simpler interpretation, and more in line with other charge related rules (stand and shoot etc.), which rely on charge declaration rather than success.

The old 'you must be sure your charge will reach' statement kind of prevented players from declaring charges that had no way of reaching just to return models to the back ranks.

Basically, I found it a bit ambiguous and found the charge declaration the more sensible solution out of the choices on offer.

Cheers,

enyoss

Mephistofeles
16-01-2007, 13:18
He lapped you after having won the combat I hope, not at the start of it? If he lapped at the start, he was not only out of date on his rules, but also cheating.

Festus
16-01-2007, 16:03
Hi

I found the charge declaration to be a far simpler interpretation, and more in line with other charge related rules (stand and shoot etc.), which rely on charge declaration rather than success.

The old 'you must be sure your charge will reach' statement kind of prevented players from declaring charges that had no way of reaching just to return models to the back ranks.

Basically, I found it a bit ambiguous and found the charge declaration the more sensible solution out of the choices on offer.
Just out of a sense of completeness: I was right (Yippie! ;) )!

BRB6, p.77 says that it has to be a successful charge to make the models return into their original formation. A declaration in itself is not sufficient.

Festus

Irakaz
16-01-2007, 21:06
He lapped you after having won the combat I hope, not at the start of it? If he lapped at the start, he was not only out of date on his rules, but also cheating.
Yeah he charged, won combat by one and then lapped his models after I passed my break test.

Its not a big deal though. I mainly wanted to find out so I could use it correctly lol. Also I hd forgotten to test for stupidity on one turn and I also tried to cast green fire on a frenzied unit :p

sds661
17-01-2007, 03:54
Hi

Just out of a sense of completeness: I was right (Yippie! ;) )!

BRB6, p.77 says that it has to be a successful charge to make the models return into their original formation. A declaration in itself is not sufficient.

Festus
Festus,

Yes, but as someone has already pointed out, it could have happened that the charge was only unsuccessful if the models were returned to their original formation. The rule was then logically inconsistent.

IF charge successful by just reaching "Lapper" THEN "Lapper" moves so charge unsuccesful

A charge cannot simultaneously be successful and unsuccessful can it? And this used to happen, not very often, but more than never ... so how did you play it?

Festus
17-01-2007, 07:53
Hi

A charge cannot simultaneously be successful and unsuccessful can it? And this used to happen, not very often, but more than never ... so how did you play it?
A charge is successful if the chargers can make contact at the time the chargin unit is moved (aka a charge move - sic!). So if the chargers can reach the formation as it is while lapping round, the charge is successful. If this is not possible, the charge will fail.

Festus

Gorbad Ironclaw
17-01-2007, 08:54
But the problem was that sometimes you would have someone with only just enough movement to contact the models lapping around. As soon as you see you can contact, you move those models back. What do you then do with the charging unit? They can't reach there target, so is it a failed charge?

Not that common, but it's quite messy. Although i have to say I'm sorry to see those rules disapear.

enyoss
17-01-2007, 09:14
A charge is successful if the chargers can make contact at the time the chargin unit is moved (aka a charge move - sic!). So if the chargers can reach the formation as it is while lapping round, the charge is successful. If this is not possible, the charge will fail.


This was my point though :). How can the charge be successful if it no longer has enough move to 're-hit' the unit once the lappers have been removed? It would seem that the only way to complete the charge is to fudge things and slide the charging unit the extra distance necessary to complete the charge.

This meant that units which had lapped around extensively could be charged from miles away as all the opponent had to do was contact a single lapper round, then be 'travelated' the additional distance into combat.

Although not strictly to the letter of the rules (you were right Festus... damn you again! ;)), replacing lapping round models on the declaration seems both fairer and avoids the awkward fudge.

Still, I suppose this is my personal preference rather than RAW (I'm starting to despise that term now!).

Cheers,

enyoss