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Iracundus
17-01-2007, 09:18
While there may be no official plans yet, I was wondering what people thought of the idea of Tyranids in AI. After all, among one of the Tyranid images is a sky blackened with spores, Gargoyles, and Harridans.

I haven't managed to get off a game of AI yet since it arrived but have wondered how well (or not) a house rules version of Tyranids giving them say very high maneuverability, min speed 0 or 1, and low max speed and low thrust. I was thinking of Harridans and Meiotic Spores (from Imperial Armor IV) for starters.

Hellebore
17-01-2007, 09:34
Gargoyle swarms could also work - sort of like a ripper swarm in 40k, lots of components, but a single profile.

Otherwise, it would really just be harridans of various types. Teh mycetic spores would be dropping troops onto ground instalations.

They would probably also have unlimitied ammo, and never run out of fuel...

Hellebore

Hena
17-01-2007, 10:05
This same topic came up on Tactical Wargames board. So I'd check that thread at least... even If I disagree on some points ;).

http://www.tacticalwargames.net/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=78;t=8285

Iracundus
17-01-2007, 11:43
The Meiotic Spores I was talking about are not mycetic spores. Meiotic spores as described in Imperial Armor IV are like giant floating barrage balloons that release clusters of normal acid spore mines along with acid on detonation. So I'd have them as maybe min speed 0, max speed 1, thrust 1, one shot units that are destroyed when they "fire" their short range attack. The upside being a low cost and a powerful attack capable of doing serious damage or shredding enemies that stray too close. This might give incentive for the enemy to steer clear and detour into range of the Harridans/Gargoyles.

For Harridans I was as noted above thinking min speed 0, max speed maybe 2, very high manueverability, and max altitude maybe 5 or 6. Since Harridan bio-cannons have same range as autocannons in 40K, I'd use similar ranges but since the Harridan is a Gargantuan creature (sort of like superheavy) and because its cannons in 40K are Str10 AP3'd make it a highly damaging attack. Its pair of scything talons and the way they are used in Imperial Armor 4 for raking passes means a ground attack with few dice but heavy damage if it hits. The Gargoyle brood that clings to a Harridan can be counted as transported jump troops.

Proposed Harridan (based off FW stats):

Type: Bomber
Hits: 4
Maneuver: Very High
Max Speed: 2
Min Speed: 0
Max Altitude: 5
Thrust: 1
Transport: 1 (Jump troops)

Weapons:
1. Bio-Cannon Front 1-1-0 2+ unlimited ammo Extra damage 5+
2. Scything Talons Rear 1-0-0 2+ unlimited ammo ground attack, extra damage 5+

Proposed Meiotic Spore:

Type: Fighter
Hits: 1
Manuever: Low
Min Speed: 0
Max Altitude: 5
Thrust: 1
Transport: 0

Weapon:
1. Detonation All round 8-0-0 3+ Extra damage 6+

Mine is destroyed by detonation. If mine is shot down by enemy fire it immediately detonates, attacking the closest enemy target in range (if any).

Any thoughts on the above? I haven't included point costs but given the numerous disadvantages and limitations on altitude, speed, and thrust, I'd keep them all very cheap in keeping with the Tyranid ethos of sheer numbers.

Forbiddenknowledge
17-01-2007, 13:38
Not bad, actually, but from talking to the designers, and Warwick, they said they didn't put them in as they couldn't match fighters speed, and when tested were getting hammered too easily.

Iracundus
17-01-2007, 13:44
So? Ground Tyranids get hammered by fire in 40K. The point is there are lots of them and when they get close enough they do a world of hurt. If they're kept dirt cheap in AI then they can still work.

Huge Gargoyle swarms can act as the equivalent of a Ripper swarm and function like a single AI unit. Again if they're kept very cheap then it doesn't matter as much if individual units are shot up or slow and bypassed.

The 40K universe repeatedly has images of blackened skies filled with Tyranids. If they are so dense that in some stories Imperial craft are taken down through sheer number of impacts while attempting to fly through the swarms, or via sufficient numbers being sucked into engines, then I don't see why the same philosophy of sheer number can't be applied to AI.

Note: I would add Extra Damage 6 or even Extra Damage 5+ to the Tyranid Harridan biocannon to account for its AP3 blast compared to the autocannon and the fact that it has an acid component that can continue to eat away at a target whereas a lascannon just punches straight through. It's still only one shot from each cannon so I kept it 1-1-0 like the paired lascannon of the Thunderbolt.

Chaos and Evil
17-01-2007, 13:57
I posted a similar thing on Tactical Command but here goes;


I had a quick chat with Warwick Kinrade about Tyranids in AI at GamesDay.

He was of the opinion that during the course of an entire game of AI, while the planes themselves would be zipping back and forwards over the board, the Tyranid's fastest unit (The Harridan) would move about 15cm.

Basically, Tyranids is AI would be for 'target practice' only.

Iracundus
17-01-2007, 14:43
That's just lack of imagination or will on their part, not a real excuse. Originally when the Harridan first made its debut in Epic it was slow compared to other aircraft but it was easily capable of gunning down any Thunderbolt that strayed into its range.

The Valkyrie is probably the best counterpart to the Harridan in that they fulfill similar roles as ground attack gunship and transport, with some marginal anti-air capability.

Imperial Armor IV even portrays Harridans in action, where they fly in and destroy an Elysian drop troop detachment's Valkyries on the ground. Then there is also the time where a Thunderhawk is taken down because it flies into a cloud of Meiotic Spores. There is plenty of precedent for Tyranids being able to deal with Imperial aircraft and airfields.

It's easy to try and dismiss stuff as "impossible" for biological organisms to do yet the world is filled with real life examples of such things. If GW can ask the audience to accept biological spaceships and vehicles and Titans, it's not that much to ask for the Tyranids to have some means of matching other races' air forces, even if just through sheer number rather than 1 on 1 capability.

Hena
17-01-2007, 16:00
I have to say that I haven't read AI rules. But for pure air to air combat Tyranids don't have anything. For air defence, yes. For attacking things on ground from air, yes. For air to air duel with fighters, no.

TheBlueGrassGamer
17-01-2007, 16:49
Greetings,


The Valkyrie is probably the best counterpart to the Harridan in that they fulfill similar roles as ground attack gunship and transport, with some marginal anti-air capability.

This is true, but take a look for some the AI scenarios that involve Valkyries. What do you see? Dedicated Thunderbolt/Lightning escorts, to run CAP and keep the enemy at bay. Valkyries, Vultures, Arvus lighters, and Aquila landers aren't meant for dogfighting -- they're dedicated transport aircraft. It is only with some the Tau and Eldar aircraft where I'd say the lines between dedicated fighter and dedicated transport become blurred.

Also, with the effective range of the Skystrike missiles and normal Thunderbolt weapons, the Thunderbolt doesn't need to get within the Harridan's range to take it out. Not unless the pilot is crazy, or suicidal.



Imperial Armor IV even portrays Harridans in action, where they fly in and destroy an Elysian drop troop detachment's Valkyries on the ground.

Point being? You can destroy any aircraft you catch on the ground, as long as you can do it without warning and the LZ isn't properly defended. What would have happened if D-99 had brought along, say, some form of early warning system and a dedicated AA system like the Sabre?

What if D-99 had dedicated CAP coverage, that had been able to detect to the Harridan soon and unleashed its Skystrike missiles long before it was within the Harridan's range?


Then there is also the time where a Thunderhawk is taken down because it flies into a cloud of Meiotic Spores.

I always think it funny when the people upset with the exclusion of the 'Nids from AI start going "But we could gum up their engines!" or "We've got spore mines!" Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't spore mines move at the mercy of the wind? So, how you are going to make sure that spore mine that you've just lunched from the Biovore is going to hit that Thunderbolt? And if it's a calm day, how is that spore mine going to catch that Thunderbolt to hit it?

And as for gumming up the engines of other races' engines? You'd need numbers, where the basic aircraft cost for other races is 20pts. Can you think of a way to make Gargoyles (which you either want to gum up the engines with or use as jet fighters) cheap, and fair?

Otherwise, I'm not going to endanger my squadron of Thunderbolts against a huge number of Gargoyles -- knowing I'm going to loose all of them and not stand a chance of competing my mission objectives, why you just sit and smile because my Thunderbolts are creators and your Gargyles are still flying about.



It's easy to try and dismiss stuff as "impossible" for biological organisms to do yet the world is filled with real life examples of such things.

A challenge, then. Show me one -- that's right one -- real world biological example of an organism that can keep pace with a modern military jet fighter in terms of speed and maneuverability. If you can do that, I'll happily go "Yeah, 'Nids should show up in AI".


Thanks,
The Bluegrass Gamer

orangesm
17-01-2007, 18:13
Tyranids would saturate the skies with smaller critters. Clearing the skies of the flocks of Gargoyles & Harridans, spore mine clouds, and whatever other biological creatures Tyranids have would have to happen before you could fly a squadron of Thunderbolts, Barracudas, or Hellblades into it.

Aircraft like Thunderhawks and Mantas (capable of maneuvering in space) could seal their engines and fly on sensors through the mess.

So is their Tyranid air? Yes and it saturates the areas it is above like cities and the growth zones of the Tyranids making it impossible to fly there.
Should it show up in IA? Not as any kind of competitive force. I can see developing rules for the Harridans to stop them from reinforcing or attacking an evacuation zone.

Dark skies and flocks of little critters.


http://us.games-workshop.com/games/40k/tyranids/extras/art/images/8.jpg

Iracundus
17-01-2007, 20:10
The Elysians in Imp Armor IV had their airfield destroyed despite there being dedicated Hydra anti-aircraft guns. Harridans are completely capable of operating in the face of anti-aircraft fire.


...the Harridan cannot match an aircraft for straight line speed, but its lithe, twisting body is far more manoeuverable, allowing it to twist and turn to avoid enemy fighters or ground fire...Imperial pilot after action reports tell tales of Harridans intercepting aircraft that fly too close, or of them sacrificing themselves in suicidal mid-air collisions that destroys both the aircraft and the Harridan.

Did no one read what I wrote earlier? I am nowhere arguing that the Tyranids should suddenly get organic fighters matching Thunderbolts in individual performance. What I am saying though is the Harridans though slower, are agile, still have guns with range and power comparable to other aircraft out there, have jump troop carrying capacity similar to other gunships out there, and have the close combat ability (and noted previous precedents) capable of destroying aircraft and tanks on the ground. In other words, the Tyranid Harridan is a general-purpose Tyranid capable of functioning as ground support and transport, with ability to take on enemy aircraft that get close, aided by its high maneuverability

Again also people should READ what I wrote. I said the Meiotic Spore Mines detailed in Imperial Armor IV acted as barrage balloons. They were NOT fired at that moment but were deployed before the battle and were already lurking above that particular point like floating minefields, AND as I wrote before they have large area effect blasts.


Propelled by a gaseous release, the Meiotic spore attempts to intercept the target aircraft, seeking to explode in close proximity to it. The force of an explosion, much greater than that of a normal spore mine, is often enough to critically damage an aircraft. Meiotic Spores also carry other spore mines inside them. When the sack detonates many of these mines are destroyed, adding to the force of the explosion, however the big spore seems to have evolved in such a way that some spore mines will be flung clear and will continue drifting to find new targets, meaning destroying a Meiotic Spore is not as easy as simply shooting it down.

Though their movement over the very long term may be influenced by the winds, as quoted above from Imp Armor IV, they do have limited propulsion capabilities sufficient to attempt interception of aircraft that get close enough. Also as stated above, their submunition spore mines mean it's not simply a matter of just shooting down one big target. The ThunderHAWK (again read carefully, not Thunderbolt) in Imp Armor IV was taken down by these mines so their blast effects are truly powerful. In AI, such spores while near immobile should have very cheap and in enough numbers with a blast powerful enoguh to give other races a bit of a pause before thinking of just zipping everywhere they want.


I am saying Tyranids in AI can and should be dirt cheap so that the board has a lot of them. Even if they individually are slow, the point is there should be enough Tyranids such that the enemy's aircraft find it difficult to bypass without either getting close to another Harridan or a spore mine. Get that? I am not saying Harridans or whatever else should suddenly be able to race up and overtake Thunderbolts. With weapons that match Thunderbolt guns in range, and the noted very high maneuverability, a Harridan should be however capable of the quick changes in direction that Thunderbolts cannot match except at the expense of speed. I am referring to the maneuver cards, specifically 9 and 10. This allows the Harridans to threaten an area of space around them, and be more than the "targets" people seem to think they have to be (and which the Imp Armor and Epic background says they are not).

Granted in the proposed rules I posted above, other races could fly far above the Tyranids but in such a role, they wouldn't be accomplishing their objective either by avoiding. And that seems to be how the Tyranids use their air creatures: operating in close support of their ground swarms. They don't appear to engage in dedicated CAP or interception of enemy aircraft but their numbers and closeness to their ground swarms should mean any enemy attempt to drop trops nearby or attack the ground would risk encountering the Harridans and mines lurking over the local battlefield.

Please people. Read what is written first before getting a knee jerk comment. Nowhere is it said that Tyranids have to suddenly emulate other racial aircraft and speeds. Their existing documented creatures while individually inferior (though the Harridan cannon's stats are superior to the autocannon in every way except rate of fire), are used in numbers and are willing to be sacrificed to accomplish the job, in keeping with the Tyranid theme. Does this mean they are going to be slower and more defensive overall? Yes it does but then again nowhere is it said the Tyranids have to have an equivalent for everything. After all, Orks don't have a full heavy bomber, Tau don't have a true bomber, and nobody has a Manta equivalent. As I see it the Tyranid air creatures operate defensively over ground forces and as ground attack, with floating mines to restrict enemy movement, not in a high speed interception role.

There again is precedent for slow lumbering Tyranid craft: BFG. Slow, but capable of shredding anything they do get close to or which strays too close. It is possible to introduce races that operate substantially differently (in this case defensively through numbers and restricting the enemy rather than trying to catch up to them) without trying to have them have an equivalent for everything another race has.

marv335
17-01-2007, 21:30
the fastest animal with wings in the peregrine falcon. it can dive at 180kph
speed one is 370kph.
the gargoyle wouldn't be fast enough to make speed one.
they also would be unable to achieve a high altitude.
the fighters would be able to out manouvre the tyranids, and stay above them.
unless the 'nids could cover the entire battlefield, the aircraft could just avoid them.

Ixajin
17-01-2007, 21:37
A challenge, then. Show me one -- that's right one -- real world biological example of an organism that can keep pace with a modern military jet fighter in terms of speed and maneuverability. If you can do that, I'll happily go "Yeah, 'Nids should show up in AI".




Ok, had to give this one a shot. Hopefully my conversions from knots to m/s aere done correctlly.

Ok, first, no, not as fast as a modern day fighter jet, but near to the Apache attack helicopter.

As can be seen here: http://hypertextbook.com/facts/1999/ChrisSantoro.shtml the peregrine falcon can reach speeds of 80 m/s. The Apache has a top speed of 85.8 m/s (309 Knots)[based on info found on the web]. The fastest helicopter I found is the Westland Lynx is 112 m/s (217.5 knots).

So my response is this: being that the Nids have been to worlds unknown to us, why could they not have air to air type creatures? Nothing says they would have to be as fast as other fighter aircraft.

Ok, there is my try to meet your challenge, what do you think?

Ixajin

orangesm
17-01-2007, 22:21
how was speed 1 determined? is that number given? or is it based on division of a given aircraft max speed by 9?

Rarely will any of the aircraft in AeroImp actually go to their max speed - the max speed of a Tbolt being Mach 1.7 at sea level. Air combat does not happen at this speed.

marv335
17-01-2007, 22:28
i took the max printed background speed from AI and divided it by the max speed rating from the rules.
it's a reasonably consistant figure 350-400kph per speed band seems to be the norm.
i think, from looking at the figures that this is how they worked out the speed bands.

marv335
17-01-2007, 22:32
Ok, had to give this one a shot. Hopefully my conversions from knots to m/s aere done correctlly.

Ok, first, no, not as fast as a modern day fighter jet, but near to the Apache attack helicopter.

As can be seen here: http://hypertextbook.com/facts/1999/ChrisSantoro.shtml the peregrine falcon can reach speeds of 80 m/s. The Apache has a top speed of 85.8 m/s (309 Knots)[based on info found on the web]. The fastest helicopter I found is the Westland Lynx is 112 m/s (217.5 knots).

So my response is this: being that the Nids have been to worlds unknown to us, why could they not have air to air type creatures? Nothing says they would have to be as fast as other fighter aircraft.

Ok, there is my try to meet your challenge, what do you think?

Ixajin

the pererine falcon can only reach those speeds in a straight line dive.
not really a good comparison.
even then, it's still so slow it's only moving at a comparitive speed of 0

malika
17-01-2007, 22:45
Hmm, I was intruiged by the Nids since it would give the possibility of close combat in this game.

orangesm
17-01-2007, 23:11
i took the max printed background speed from AI and divided it by the max speed rating from the rules.
it's a reasonably consistant figure 350-400kph per speed band seems to be the norm.
i think, from looking at the figures that this is how they worked out the speed bands.

I do not agree with this method.
The Thunderbolt's max velocity is Mach 1.7 at Sea Level, a Lightning's is Mach 1.95, a Vulture/Valkyrie's is Mach 0.9, a Marauder's is 1.47, all the Tau are 1.7, a Thunderhawk is 1.6 These are not combat speeds.

They are not vertical rocket speeds to orbit either, but they are very fast and at high enough altitude allow the craft to achieve very low orbit possibly (I would have to sit down and do a lot of complicated math I have not done in a year).

I can see it being used as a standard to simply divide the given number by the max speed rating, but I am of the opinion that the max speed in game is more akin to military power than max power.

Ixajin
17-01-2007, 23:11
the pererine falcon can only reach those speeds in a straight line dive.
not really a good comparison.
even then, it's still so slow it's only moving at a comparitive speed of 0

Well, I did say it was a shot, never said it would fly true.

I was looking at it in a comparison of speed based on helicopter capabilities. Not necessarily fast all around, but a reasonable top speed for it's type of flight. Add in good maneuverability for being Nid, and one might be able to work to a good argument for giving the Nids someform of aircraft type of creature that would be usable in AI.

Chaos and Evil
17-01-2007, 23:36
There's no point arguing with the above interpretation... I spoke with the writer of the game and he said that a Harridan would be Speed 0.

You can make rules that have Tyranids that move around and fight back against aircraft etc, but they won't be accurate reflections of W40k Tyranids as they should be, they'll be your own wishes.

There's nowt wrong with that of course, but there's no point arguing that 'nids can achieve Speed 4 or somesuch. :)

marv335
18-01-2007, 00:18
the available performance figures for the aircraft in use in AI all give the max speed at 5000 feet. i took that figure and divided it by their max speed rating.
i've done it for every aircraft listed.
every one comes out at between 300-443kph for speed one.
the average figure across the board (by adding all the speed one figures together and dividing by the number of aircraft) is 370kph.
work it out yourself, see what you get.
(use the figures form the AI book, not IA)
since all the figures are so close it's reasonable to assume that this was the basis for the speed system. therefore it's reasonable to apply the same reasoning when trying to create rules for other flyers.
1 point of speed = 370 kph

a large biological creature is unlikely to be able to fly at 1480kph.
that was the point.
'nids just are not fast enough.

orangesm
18-01-2007, 01:23
Well if I had my book I would. I am only stating that fighting air battles at speeds above 661 knots (761 mph, 1225 kph, or the speed of sound) is difficult and unlikely.

A good example is the F-22 for this. The unclass max speed is ~2575 km/h while the unclass cruise is 1,830 km/h. Now neither of these speeds would be the 'normal' speed in the middle of a dogfight (sans missiles at 20 miles/32 km). The second speed (cruise) it may enter combat and leave combat using, but during steep and tight manuevers of a true aircraft on aircraft dogfight.


Dogfights are generally contests fought at low airspeeds, while maintaining enough energy for violent acrobatic maneuvering, as pilots attempt to remain within air speeds with a maximum turn rate and minimum turn radius: the so-called "corner speed" that often lies between 300 and 400 knots, depending on conditions. Therefore a dogfight has nothing to do with supersonic speed, but much to do with the engine power that makes supersonic flight possible. Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogfight#Modern_air_combat)

With your math that means that an aircraft going Speed 4 (current max speed for player created Ork Landa) going Mach 1 when it is going its max speed in game. Going Speed 9, 3330 kph or roughly Mach 3 at Sea-level.
The SR-71 turning radius at Mach 3.18 (velocity of SR-71 ~1611 kph) and 78,800 ft (speed of sound ~506.726 kph) is 100 miles.

What is the 'area' that a AeroImp game happens in?

I can and will easily agree that a Harradian would have a speed of 0 (assuming 0 means that a metal self-propelled aircraft has to achieve 1 to take off and maintain level flight), but I think 1/2 is more accurate. It is a big lumbering creature and is not evolved to achieve high speed, it is evolved to carry smaller creatures and provide close air support to those creatures. It can probably climb slowly and achieve speed 1 in a dive.

That being said a smaller Tyranid creature may be capable of achieving higher velocities.

How would they achieve this?

The Tyranids have a means to propel sharp, energetic, burrowing creatures at high enough velocity to get through flak armor, they are able to propel bioplasma fast enough to hit a tank and go through the tank (not just melt away a side). A natural jet engine could be created using the same natural technique used to create the hot bio plasma.
A jet engine works by sucking in air, compressing that air, super-heating that air, and then expel it out through a nozzle - going a high velocity.

Another method, a high flying (alt 10+ thats right above the battlefield) Harradian or larger Tyranid beast disgorges Gargoyles or large winged warriors & tyrant to ambush a flying unit. They dive from a high altitude entering at a high speed. Each turn they must either lose a point of speed or a point of altitude. This makes Tyranids very had to play as you try to stay in the air while engaging your targets.

Have there ever been any mention of a Tyranid 'jet' creature? No but there also has never been a game about air battles in M41. The possibility is there, especially in a genome as diverse as the Tyranids.

TheBlueGrassGamer
18-01-2007, 01:30
Greeting,


Did no one read what I wrote earlier?

Correct me if I am wrong, but in your earlier post didn't you only say that a Thunderhawk was taken down by a Meiotic Spore and that a Harridans (perhaps operating as a group) destroyed an airfield used by D-99 in IA 4? Also, in your earlier post, you failed to give specific references and/or passages from IA 4 -- so don't blame us for not getting the entire picture.


What I am saying though is the Harridans though slower, are agile, still have guns with range and power comparable to other aircraft out there, have jump troop carrying capacity similar to other gunships out there, and have the close combat ability (and noted previous precedents) capable of destroying aircraft and tanks on the ground.

And you also want to to be cheaper than anything else in the game, so you can field a large amount of them? Despite the fact that Harridan would be extremely agile and allow it to have a default amount of drop troops -- as well as the weapons capabilities of a Valkyries.

Also, you should READ the AI rulebook. Page 8, under the "Infinite Skies" section:


Aircraft cannot collide even if the models do so, or the bases overlap.

So much for the Harridan ramming planes out of the skies....



Though their movement over the very long term may be influenced by the winds, as quoted above from Imp Armor IV, they do have limited propulsion capabilities sufficient to attempt interception of aircraft that get close enough. Also as stated above, their submunition spore mines mean it's not simply a matter of just shooting down one big target.

Again, an example of another new ability that would have to be created to cover rules specific the 'Nids. And unless I am mistaken, you intend to have the points cost be for one Meiotic Spore Mine -- but if it's shot down, you get some more drifting spore mines. Bonus! (Which would need to be balanced out rules-wise since other aircraft in AI blow up when hit -- not multiply.)



I am saying Tyranids in AI can and should be dirt cheap so that the board has a lot of them. Even if they individually are slow, the point is there should be enough Tyranids such that the enemy's aircraft find it difficult to bypass without either getting close to another Harridan or a spore mine. Get that?

I get it -- but do you?

You are wanting to create aircraft that is as agile as all get out and has a load out similar to a Valkyries and the ability to off load troops, but you want it to be cheap enough so that you can blanket the table with them, and thus force the opposing player to either a.) avoid flying on the level of the Harridans and spore mines or b.) try and navigate through you massive force of Harridans and spore mines without blowing up.


Nowhere is it said that Tyranids have to suddenly emulate other racial aircraft and speeds.

True, but again you are wanting include the 'Nids -- after they've a load out of special abilities and are (perhaps) cheaper than any of the other races' basic fighter.

I'm still interested to know you would accomplish all of this, while making it fair to the opposing player at the same time.



Well, I did say it was a shot, never said it would fly true.

True, you did give it a shot. But compared the peregrine falcon (in a dive) to a helicopter.... I'm sorry, but I cannot give "Yeap, 'Nids should be in the game" that I promised earlier. But I can give you a cookie. Would that be okay? ;) :p

Thanks,
The Bluegrass Gamer

orangesm
18-01-2007, 01:37
Also, you should READ the AI rulebook. Page 8, under the "Infinite Skies" section:



Aircraft cannot collide even if the models do so, or the bases overlap.
So much for the Harridan ramming planes out of the skies....
Question on the ramming or aircraft contacting other aircraft (since I do not have the book) - how does the Grot Bomb work?

Meiotic Spore Mines - make them simpler then. They are floating balloons that when an aircraft passes within some distance they explode, hitting all aircraft within some distance (1.5 times the activation distance). Special rule is that if a Mine is hit by any aircrafts weapon it explodes as if an aircraft had approached it, this means that a chain of Mines could be set off by a single mine going off.

TheBlueGrassGamer
18-01-2007, 01:54
Greetings,


Question on the ramming or aircraft contacting other aircraft (since I do not have the book) - how does the Grot Bomb work?

The only time a Grot Bomb physically touches another aircraft's base is when they are launched from the Fighta-Bommer that is carrying it. When the Grot Bomb is 3" away from another aircraft, you roll to hit as normal. If you miss, the Grot Bomb remains in play. If you hit, remove the Grot Bomb and roll for damage as normal.

I'd be interested to see how one would resolve the issue of using a Grot Bomb as a ground attack weapon.....

Thanks,
The Bluegrass Gamer

Hellebore
18-01-2007, 02:08
I wouldn't mind harridans and gargoyle swarms in the game, they would just have to be REALLY slow - say speed 1 or max 2.

Actually, they would probably need some form of 'natural flight' special rule, that reflects the fact that they use gravity alot more than other craft. Harridans could probably attain higher speeds peregrine falcon style by diving - the only time in the game a dive wold increase the speed of the aircraft.

Harridans also probably have no need for manouvre cards - they would just turn on the spot.

So, although they would be really slow, they would also have unparralleled manouvreability (even more so than the eldar - and allowing them to fire in all directions), I would say being able to hover at any altitude (speed 0) and being able to drop down multiple altitudes without stalling would work.

Harridan

Type: Bomber
Hits: 4
Manoeuvre: Natural*
Max Speed: 2
Min Speed: 0
Max Altitude: 5
Thrust: 1
Transport: 2 (Jump troops)

Weapons:
1. Bio-Cannon all around 1-1-0 2+ unlimited ammo Extra damage 5+
2. Scything Talons all around 1-0-0 2+ unlimited ammo ground attack, extra damage 5+

*Natural: Harridans are agile and slow enough that they can perform any type of manoeuvre without worrying about stalling. A harridan never uses manoeuvre cards, and instead may go up 1 altitude, or down 2 altitudes, turn in any direction or stop on the spot in the manoeuvre phase. A harridan may increase its speed by 1 for every altitude it drops for the next turn, as it begins a dive bomb (note that this can take it past its maximum speed).

Gargoyle brood

Type: fighter
Hits: 1
Manoeuvre: Natural*
Max Speed: 1
Min Speed: 0
Max Altitude: 5
Thrust: 1
Transport: 0

Weapons:
1. fleshborers all around 6-0-0 6+ unlimited ammo


Hellebore

Iracundus
18-01-2007, 07:20
The mention of the fluff about Meiotic Spore mines was mentioned to address those skeptics who being intentionally dense and refusing to believe a single mine could a) intercept and then b) hurt an aircraft or c) be more than just a big target balloon. The point is already in the fluff the Meiotic mines have gaseous jets allowing them to intercept aircraft. They then detonate, generating one blast, and also in the process fling out submunition mines which can then also detonate, so shooting the large mine doesn't immediately neutralize the threat as the submunitions are still flung out. The NET effect (which is all that is needed at the AI level) is a single powerful attack capable of downing even heavily armored aircraft like a Thunderhawk.

No special rules are needed as my proposed mine rules with their relatively large number of dice already account for that. A single large number dice one use attack with short range band. No special addendums needed period.

People need to read a hell of a lot more carefully as they are not getting the point of what I wrote. I never said Harridans should have the weapon loadout of a full Valkyrie, nor did I ever say the Harridans have to carry the same amount of troops. I wrote they fulfill a similar ROLE as the Valkyrie. Filling similar ROLE is NOT equivalent to saying they should be identical. Harridans are SIMILAR to Valkyries in that they are both troop carrying transports with ground attack capability and some marginal AA ability.

And yes I was exactly proposing dirt cheap spore mines and Harridans so the board can have many of them. Why? Because giving up that speed thrust, and having only short range or at best low dice number medium range weaponry is a major disadvantage. Having very high maneuverability class by itself is by no means equal compensation in of itself, so the obvious counterweighting is in points cost. Having high numbers of mines and Harridans forcing more careful thinking of enemy movement is precisely necessary in order for balancing of their disadvantages since in one on one fights, other racial aircraft are at an advantage in both speed, altitude capabilities, and number of weapon systems carried.

To summarize for the reading interpretation impaired:
1) Tyranid air creatures inferior to aircraft in speed but have very high maneuverability class
2) Tyranid air creature weaponry is short range and/or low dice number.
3) As a result of points 1) and 2) they are individually quite inferior against aircraft
4) Since they are individually inferior, their points cost should be low allowing use of the Tyranid weight of numbers strategy to compensate.
5) Look once again at the my proposed Tyranid AI designs as originally proposed. There is only 1 special rule and that is for the mine, not "a load". Everything else in there conforms to the basic AI rules. So having cheap slow, short range, very altitude restricted, low weapon dice number Tyranids can be balanced.


Sidenote: I had the Harridan as Jump Troop 1 transport as they only carry 1 brood at most and Gargoyles are still Tyranid cannon fodder so I kept their overall troop value low.

Addendum #2: In the past there have been GW designer people who have commented on a variety of things as being not possible for a race or not in their philosopy yet have subsequently been contradicted by what was released. So trying to cite what an AI person has stated (and which contradicts what that very same person had a part in writing in earlier IA books) is by no means a definitive answer.

Examples: Eldar Falcon. Way back in very early 2nd edition 40K, when some Eldar players were asking about Eldar tanks and armored vehicles, they were told tanks were big lumbering things and not in keeping with the Eldar way of war. Guess what? Eldar Falcon eventually comes out.

BFG players ask whether there are any plans for Eldar battleships. Get told by BFG designer that Eldar prefer fast maneuverable ships and so don't use battleships. Subsequently Eldar forces get 2 battleship designs released. So much for no battleships.

BFG Ork players ask whether they will get any ships bigger than cruiser size. Get told the Orks lack the technical ability to construct and maintain larger ships (aside from space hulks), and that their cruisers are already mostly salvaged Imperial designs. Down the line during the 3rd War for Armageddon campaign, Orks get BFG designs for 3 Ork battleships. Again so much for Ork inability.

Addendum #3: Hellebore, there is no need to introduce special maneuverability classes. Dives as listed in the main rules ALREADY increase speed. I am also not keen on all round fire arc for Harridan bio-cannons as they are front arcs in 40K and having all-round fire arcs for a main weapon like that would remove the need for any Tyranid maneuver.

Hellebore
18-01-2007, 07:27
Addendum #3: Hellebore, there is no need to introduce special maneuverability classes. Dives as listed in the main rules ALREADY increase speed. I am also not keen on all round fire arc for Harridan bio-cannons as they are front arcs in 40K and having all-round fire arcs for a main weapon like that would remove the need for any Tyranid maneuver.

Dives can't increase your speed past its maximum, whilst that special rule can.

The 'special manoeuvreability' you talk about, effectively is the ABSENCE of manoeuvreability, and would be EASIER to use than the cards, not harder.

In effect, harridans et al would just do what ever they wanted.

Being really slow, Harridans would get outflanked all the time, and never get a shot off. The reason for 'all around' was to reflect the fact that a Harridan could literally roll over and point in the opposite direction to fire its weapons.

Hellebore

Iracundus
18-01-2007, 07:42
A Harridan with 1-1-0 biocannon and Very High maneuverability could pull maneuver 10 with the climb to pull the 180's and the 9 maneuver to pull the tight 90 turns to get shots off.

Hellebore
18-01-2007, 07:44
Have you tried doing it with manoeuvres?

Because I'm pretty sure that such a slow speed will put a harridan at the mercy of ANY enemy.

Anyway, if you would rather stay with manoeuvre cards, how about a rule that allows a harridan to pull TWO manoeuvres a turn instead of one? There is already a rule for that in the book, but it requires aces, and I don't think tyranids would produce aces.

So, you could just give them the ability "Dextrous: tyranids can manoeuvre much faster than other aircraft, and may perform two manoeuvres a turn instead of one."


Hellebore

CELS
18-01-2007, 08:12
If Tyranids have living creatures that can move with speeds rivalling those of Imperial starships (which is damned fast), then I'm sure they would be able to cook up some creature that could participate in an air fight, one way or another. We're talking about organisms that can shoot bio-plasma, virulent toxins and pyro-acids across thousands kilometers in space, hitting moving objects that are probably travelling at several thousand kilometers per hour. You're telling me they can do that, but they can't breed a creature that can move at a few hundred kilometers per hour in an atmosphere? Give me a break. Let's at least bend the laws of physics consistently.

Hellebore
18-01-2007, 08:24
If Tyranids have living creatures that can move with speeds rivalling those of Imperial starships (which is damned fast), then I'm sure they would be able to cook up some creature that could participate in an air fight, one way or another. We're talking about organisms that can shoot bio-plasma, virulent toxins and pyro-acids across thousands kilometers in space, hitting moving objects that are probably travelling at several thousand kilometers per hour. You're telling me they can do that, but they can't breed a creature that can move at a few hundred kilometers per hour in an atmosphere? Give me a break. Let's at least bend the laws of physics consistently.

Well, an eldar nightwing's max speed is 3600 km per hour, and its speed value is 9.

A thunderbolt's max speed value is 6, and it's speed is 2200 km/per hour.

I'm not sure how a harridan (the only flying nid described) could reach anywhere near these speeds as its propulsion is a pair of wings.

They would have to invent a whole new range of nids to fit the jet propelled fighter craft position.

Hellebore

CELS
18-01-2007, 10:09
Yes, they probably would. Failing that, they could redesign the Harridan and add some propulsion in addition to its wings.

And as others have mentioned already, you might not want to get into a dog fight going 3600 km per hour. In other words, the speed value in the system might represent another speed than the maximum capability of the aircraft.

Forbiddenknowledge
18-01-2007, 10:38
Another method, a high flying (alt 10+ thats right above the battlefield) Harradian or larger Tyranid beast disgorges Gargoyles or large winged warriors & tyrant to ambush a flying unit. They dive from a high altitude entering at a high speed. Each turn they must either lose a point of speed or a point of altitude. This makes Tyranids very had to play as you try to stay in the air while engaging your targets.



Um, not to burst a bubble or anything, but altitude 10 is space.... which is why rocket booster craft at alt 9 can disengage by going orbital.

Since when do harridan operate is space?

Iracundus
18-01-2007, 11:38
As above I'm against introducing special rules if at all possible because such bolt on rule additions lead to an increasingly clunky system and are a sign of "Codex creep". Raptor-like diving and circling I believe can already be simulated using the various maneuver cards.

Note that you don't strictly need "Aces" with the pilot skill rules. Aces just have a bonus above and beyond their normal racial level. If one uses the pilot skill rules, all the craft on the board have skill levels and may attempt the various things mentioned.

While A Harridan may be vulnerable even with Very High class maneuverability, I have said many times the point of Tyranids isn't to necessarily get something to match their opponents one on one. A group operating together though to cover each other and threaten different directions might do better. While individual Harridans may be inferior, a low enough cost and high enough number (along with the floating spores to interdict enemy movement) may compensate for their individual shortcomings. I see them as a lot more defensively oriented force overall, waiting or luring. Instead of trying to go and chase down the enemy, I see the enemy having to make choices and maneuver and deciding whether to risk getting close to the mines/Harridans. If they do, then a Very High maneuverability would allow the Harridans to pull those direction changes to get shots off or face down the enemy at comparable ranges.

Baaltharus
18-01-2007, 12:11
Close combat probably wouldnt work, if a nid tried to tackle a aircraft in the air and was successful in that attempt, the great likelihood is that the nid would have its attacking appendage shorn off by the weight and momentum of the aircraft resulting in both tumbling from the sky. That said, I really don't think the nids would be able to catch anything bar the slowless transports.

Al.

Iracundus
18-01-2007, 12:38
In the Imperial Armor IV fluff description on the Harridan which I quoted above, Harridans can and have tackled Imperial aircraft resultingin mutual destruction but it seems the Hive Mind considers this an acceptable tradeoff.

However for purposes of AI, I'm not suggesting Harridans have to resort to that. Their bio-cannons match the range of autocannons which are themselves a medium range weapon in AI. Harridans may be slow but if they're very agile they should be able to turn to face their guns towards the enemy. And if one can't do it, multiple mobbing up to deal with one enemy may mean it becomes difficult for the enemy to escape being fired on by at least one of the Tyranids.

Ixajin
18-01-2007, 17:54
True, you did give it a shot. But compared the peregrine falcon (in a dive) to a helicopter.... I'm sorry, but I cannot give "Yeap, 'Nids should be in the game" that I promised earlier. But I can give you a cookie. Would that be okay? ;) :p

Thanks,
The Bluegrass Gamer

Bluegrass I happily accept your cookie. :D

I think the biggest issue of adding Nids to AI is stepping back and trying to think like a Nid to understand how they would handle air to air combat. Saying that I will continue to wacth this thread to see what surfaces.

Also, thinking about it, comparing space flight to atmosphere flight is a bad idea, as in space an object of any shape only needs a small amout of thrust to gain high velocity. Well, that's at least how I understand it.

At any rate, Cheers All!

Cartographer
19-01-2007, 15:17
Fundamentally, I don't see Nids as operating in any sort of "Air Superiority" role, they are there to take the ground, the air is simply the medium through which they pass on their way.

I can't see any scenario where Tyranid forces would be on the offence, they just don't act that way. It's all about a concerted effort to smash all resistance on the planet and they don't need to control the air to do that. They can focus massive ground assault with all the necessary defence from air attack without needing to match other species' fliers.

Take a look at what they have at the moment;
Large transport creatures, with relatively powerful ground attack capabilities.
Mobile Barrage Balloons.

The thinking behind them seems to be "Come to us, you'll have to eventually".

Hellebore
19-01-2007, 15:32
Although I don't think the tyranids would be very capable at air superiority, you've got to wonder exactly what their flying units are fore if not SOME form of interception.

You don't create ground attack aerial units that can't protect themselves against OTHER aerial units - it's suicide.

The fact that they have super heavy flyers/flappers indicates SOME apptitude in the air...

Hellebore

Cartographer
19-01-2007, 15:41
I see the air units the Tyranids field in one of 2 camps;

Direct Ground Assault - Bred to engage enemy forces/defences directly, or to deliver forces to where the Hive mind wants them faster than through walking and more reliably than orbital drop.

Air Neutralisation - Tyranid forces blanket worlds they assault in clouds of corrosive, toxic and contagious spores. Spore mines fill the air above tyranid forces and advance with them. Gargoyles and any other flying nasties, from micro-organisms to Harridans, swoop in constant CAP around Tyranid forces. Any assault on Tyranid ground forces has to go through their air defence, or fly above it and try to aim through it. Neither will (or has according to the Imperium) result(ed) in much success.

Basically, the Tyranids don't need to dominate the air, they can win the Orbital and ground wars without trying to match other species' air craft.

What I'm saying is, if Tyranids were to be depicted in AI, they would have huge mobile clouds of indistinct creatures, slowly floating across the board, that deal damage to any aircraft that passes near them. In amongst these clouds would be individual myotic spores that track the movement of enemy aircraft and explode when close enough. You could inclusde Harridans and Gargoyle swarms, but they just don't operate seperately from the larger clouds.

Hellebore
19-01-2007, 15:50
What I'm saying is, if Tyranids were to be depicted in AI, they would have huge mobile clouds of indistinct creatures, slowly floating across the board, that deal damage to any aircraft that passes near them. In amongst these clouds would be individual myotic spores that track the movement of enemy aircraft and explode when close enough. You could inclusde Harridans and Gargoyle swarms, but they just don't operate seperately from the larger clouds.

Yep, sounds about right.

I would expect a tyranid AI 'squadron' to consist of a ridiculous number of models (say, 5 harridans for every thunderbolt).

I don't see this as a bad thing though, it reflects how they fight an air war. Tyranids for AI would probably also require specialist scenarios, as the way tyranids invade, and their pervasivness would mean scenarios to knock out spore chimneys, etc to preven extra swarms of meiotic spores being released etc.

Lots of gribblies + special scenarios doesn't sound bad to me though...

Hellebore

Iracundus
24-01-2007, 10:13
Is there agreement then that the Tyranid forces would instead of trying to chase the enemy down, be so numerous that the enemy must one way or another come to them?

Baaltharus
24-01-2007, 10:59
Would seem like the obvious solution. However, will this not make the tyranid army totally extortionate price-wise? As well as this if the Nids use dozens of models won't there be significant slow down in game time?


Al.

Arkhar
24-01-2007, 11:46
IMO, gargoyles should only be considered as jump troops. Other than that, they are totally out of AI. Itīs like Eldars using swooping hawks for dogfights :S. Harridans are too slow to engage enemy fighters on a dogfigt and should be considered as transports with some defences against attacks. Perhaps a mutation which makes it a kind of bomber or something. GW must create new creatures in order to have Nids on AI.

Arkhar

Greblord
24-01-2007, 12:18
Air Neutralisation - Tyranid forces blanket worlds they assault in clouds of corrosive, toxic and contagious spores.

I agree - I think you can probably just put a cut out template for the cloud and maybe have it move 1" in a random direction every turn. stats: 16-0-0.

That should cover it:)

Iracundus
25-01-2007, 01:05
As was stated above, there is no need to attempt to make Tyranid Harridans dogfighters capable of facing off individually one on one against Imperial or other racial fighters if they outnumber the enemy by enough. They already fulfill the role of both transport and bomber with their current weapon loadout.

As for model number, overwhelming numbers has always been a theme with Tyranids so I don't see that as any obstacle. Ever played against a huge Tyranid gaunt swarm army? Ridiculous numbers of models on the board and takes awhile to move but still playable. Nobody expects an individual Gaunt to reliably take out a Space Marine, and people shouldn't expect the same from Tyranids in AI.

Gensuke626
25-01-2007, 03:14
might work...but then we'd need movement trays for AI tyranid swarms...

Zzarchov
25-01-2007, 03:17
Why not have Nid Space ships that go atmospheric?

Rather than small nimble creatures, Massive fast (incredibley space shipey fast) poorly manueverable bullet soaking gunships.

Baaltharus
25-01-2007, 09:56
As awesome as that would be the size of the interstellar nid craft would make attacking them with anything less than hundreds of aircraft all but pointless. Also once they nid ships enter the orbit they'd be painfully slow (ie not moving). As for gunships I don't think nids have weapon mounts along their hulls, I'm sure they are dependant on massive spore clouds for protection rather than the equivilant turrets.

Would be a really cool idea though...oh well.

Al.

Slekith
25-01-2007, 14:20
I think we are forgeting the most important thing about Tyranids.

EVOLUTION

It is as easy as developing new creatures capable of flying at those speeds.

DO NOT underestimate the HIVE MIND.

orangesm
25-01-2007, 14:26
Very true... maybe I should sketch a 'living' jet engine and a craft to go around it.

Iracundus
26-01-2007, 02:30
Proposed Harridan (based off FW stats):
Would anyone mind playtesting these proposed Tyranid rules (v2.0)? Constructuve feedback would be welcome.

Harridan
Tentative point cost: 10
Type: Bomber
Hits: 4
Maneuver: Very High
Max Speed: 2
Min Speed: 0
Max Altitude: 5
Thrust: 1
Transport: 1 (Jump troops)

Weapons:
1. Bio-Cannon Front 1-1-0 2+ unlimited ammo Extra damage 5+
2. Scything Talons Rear 2-0-0 2+ unlimited ammo ground attack, extra damage 5+

Meiotic Spore:
Tentative Point cost: 5
Type: Fighter
Hits: 1
Manuever: Low
Min Speed: 0
Max Altitude: 5
Thrust: 1
Transport: 0

Weapon:
1. Detonation All round 8-0-0 3+ 1 Extra damage 6+

Mine is destroyed by detonation. If mine is shot down by enemy fire it immediately detonates, attacking the closest enemy target in range (if any).


Notes:
1. I used the Valkyrie point cost as the starting point for the Harridan since they both have similar roles and are slow moving. They have same maneuverability but the Harridan is inferior in terms of speed, thrust, max altitude. The Harridan gains in hits, and its transported troops are jump capable which if you go by the cost of the Valkyrie (+4 for 2 Jump Capable) should technically be +2 for 1 Jump Capable, but given the Harridan's very major movement disadvantages I decided against bumping the cost up further.

2. The Scything Talons were bumped up to 2 dice in order to make the Harridan more competent at ground attack to fit the fluff of it being able to carve up a tank on a raking pass. Remember that even so, those talons are still only about the equivalent of 2 of a Marauder's bombs.

3. The point costs are only rough so playtest feedback is definitely needed on what the right ratio is in order for the Tyranids to be doing their theme of swarming.

mageboltrat
26-01-2007, 09:05
the spores need a max speed, unless I'm going completely blind.

Iracundus
26-01-2007, 09:33
Ah my mistake. Max Speed 1. They're supposed to be barely mobile barrage balloons. I hope their detonation blast is strong enough to be a deterrent.

Tastyfish
26-01-2007, 10:08
Very true... maybe I should sketch a 'living' jet engine and a craft to go around it.

Jet fuel is just hydrocarbons, no reason a living creature couldn't make it if you really wanted it to. SCRAM jets have no moving parts either like conventional engines, you would just need something to get it up to speed in order to use them.

kris.sherriff
27-01-2007, 01:01
Jet fuel is just hydrocarbons, no reason a living creature couldn't make it if you really wanted it to. SCRAM jets have no moving parts either like conventional engines, you would just need something to get it up to speed in order to use them.

The problem with this is that you need to give the Hive mind a reason to evolve them.
Why waste all of that energy when the just ignoring a few pesky aircraft tactic works well enough for them?

Xavier
27-01-2007, 01:08
Or flooding the area the pesky aircraft are in with the odd several thousand spore mines...

kris.sherriff
27-01-2007, 01:11
Or flooding the area the pesky aircraft are in with the odd several thousand spore mines...

Ah but they would do that anyway cos its fun, any aircraft go down thats just a bonus.:D

Xavier
27-01-2007, 01:16
Ah but they would do that anyway cos its fun, any plains go down thats just a bonus.:D

You have to be worried when people in the RAF misspell plane... Unless of course you meant, 'a wide-open area of land' going down. :p

kris.sherriff
27-01-2007, 01:23
You have to be worried when people in the RAF misspell plane... Unless of course you meant, 'a wide-open area of land' going down. :p

Don't know what you are on about it quite obviously says aircraft maybe it is because it is 01:20 and you are having trouble reading:rolleyes:

Anyway this thread should really be discussing if Tyranids can have move 1 for being a balloon and move four for flapping their wing how fast could Necrons go with their inertial-less drives?:D

Xavier
27-01-2007, 01:30
'Last edited by kris.sherriff : 27-01-2007 at 01:19'

Failure. :p Now, go plain some wood. And why would I be having problems reading I only got up at 4... (Ah the life of a student :))

Yea, why is there no Necron fighters? Or Dark Eldar?

Actually.. why isn't there a dark eldar one? I seem to recall dark eldar figthers in BFG... though true enough it doesn't suit the Dark Eldar ethos.

Sybaronde
30-01-2007, 15:32
Why not have Nid Space ships that go atmospheric?

Rather than small nimble creatures, Massive fast (incredibley space shipey fast) poorly manueverable bullet soaking gunships.

I'm with you on this one. I was reading through this thread and building up a suggestion about Tyranid drone ships going into the atmosphere to spread spore-mines and generally using its bio-weapons to deter opponents and spore-cysts to ejaculate explosive spores in a 'flak' style attack.

My bets would be on the vanguard and escort drone ships to do these kinds of jobs. Basically, they could be comparable to Tau manta-ships in terms of size, durability and perhaps carrying capacity, or bigger even.


As awesome as that would be the size of the interstellar nid craft would make attacking them with anything less than hundreds of aircraft all but pointless. Also once they nid ships enter the orbit they'd be painfully slow (ie not moving). As for gunships I don't think nids have weapon mounts along their hulls, I'm sure they are dependant on massive spore clouds for protection rather than the equivilant turrets.

Would be a really cool idea though...oh well.

Al.

First of all, the 'nid drone ships are already susceptible to firepower from thunderhawks, marauders and mantas, so bringing them down shouldn't be a major problem. It'd only take a bit of time.

And why do they have to be slow? These things can accelerate to high speeds in space, seemingly enter and leave atmospheres without trouble and generally clash against the laws of physics just as any other 40k craft.

As for their spore-cysts, they could simply function as defensive weapons but with less accuracy or something.

Check this (http://www.specialist-games.com/battlefleetgothic/assets/lrb/D_BFGNecrons&Nids.pdf) out for reference (pdf file).

To conclude:

I'm with Irandicus on this. That the designers don't think that 'nids are cut for AI is a display of poor creative capacity rather then anything else.

Tastyfish
30-01-2007, 15:48
I think adding Necrons, Tyranids and Dark Eldar as a later expansion would be perfectly doable - all three are probably going to have some wierd things going on, it makes sense to have the basic set with the armies that follow the rules and design concepts in the normal fashion before adding wierd inertialess Necrons, massive Zeplinbeasts and Droneships and warp portalling Dark Eldar intercepters.

Athmos
30-01-2007, 22:13
actually, necrons and dark eldars would be quite straight forward. The necrons allready have an AA gun, and the dark eldar an aircraft for 40K scale in fW range. Tyranids will be wierder, but something could still be done, if only for the sake of campaign playing.

Athmos

Duckman
30-01-2007, 22:48
I could see dark elder and maby tryanids but I don't see necrons haveing an airforce maby they'd come in has a ground target but thats about it as for the tryanids theyed be the slowest team but they could have a mouverbility and dark elder are actualy being discused in another thread so yeah..

Baaltharus
31-01-2007, 10:17
I'm with you on this one. I was reading through this thread and building up a suggestion about Tyranid drone ships going into the atmosphere to spread spore-mines and generally using its bio-weapons to deter opponents and spore-cysts to ejaculate explosive spores in a 'flak' style attack.

My bets would be on the vanguard and escort drone ships to do these kinds of jobs. Basically, they could be comparable to Tau manta-ships in terms of size, durability and perhaps carrying capacity, or bigger even.


First of all, the 'nid drone ships are already susceptible to firepower from thunderhawks, marauders and mantas, so bringing them down shouldn't be a major problem. It'd only take a bit of time.

And why do they have to be slow? These things can accelerate to high speeds in space, seemingly enter and leave atmospheres without trouble and generally clash against the laws of physics just as any other 40k craft.

As for their spore-cysts, they could simply function as defensive weapons but with less accuracy or something.

Check this (http://www.specialist-games.com/battlefleetgothic/assets/lrb/D_BFGNecrons&Nids.pdf) out for reference (pdf file).

To conclude:

I'm with Irandicus on this. That the designers don't think that 'nids are cut for AI is a display of poor creative capacity rather then anything else.

Fluff suggests that the spores are deployed from the likes of the Hive ships not from the likes of drone in the atmosphere. As for nid drones being sususceptible to attack craft firepower, well thats not really that true. Sure they can get taken down but the attacks by these tiny equivilant craft compared to the ships in BFG are made up to represent attack wings, not one or two TH or Mantas.

Even the smallest orbital drones ships would dwarf a manta many times over. It wouldn't be a workable vessel to use in the game.

As to why they would be slow well any ship which enters the atmosphere at speed will basically burn up as dictated by BFG fluff. This is just as true for nid craft. If they did move at the speeds they do in BFG they'd be on and off the table in a turn.

If you wanted a huge nid ship you'd be far better just making up something new.

Al.

Sybaronde
31-01-2007, 10:48
Fluff suggests that the spores are deployed from the likes of the Hive ships not from the likes of drone in the atmosphere. As for nid drones being sususceptible to attack craft firepower, well thats not really that true. Sure they can get taken down but the attacks by these tiny equivilant craft compared to the ships in BFG are made up to represent attack wings, not one or two TH or Mantas.

Actually, all Tyranid ships are capable of deploying spores (that is, anything with a comparable value of Hit 1 or more). And they are susceptible to attack from bomber-equivalent craft. For example, a single bomber marker in BFG is the equivalent of a single Manta. I'm not sure about the Thunderhawks, but givent hat they're smaller, they're probably 1 - 3 in each marker. Also, the attack craft markers seem to suggest that one marker represents 5 craft.

They may be tough, but then again they'd probably be seen as the equivalent of a carnifex if you'd compare a harridan to a gaunt.


Even the smallest orbital drones ships would dwarf a manta many times over. It wouldn't be a workable vessel to use in the game.

I've been thinking about it, and you're probably right. Exactly those found in BFG are perhaps a bit too much (i.e. they would be really hard to beat if you don't have bombers). But seeing as how adaptable the Tyranids are, there probably are nuances of even smaller drone ships (immature ones?) or perhaps some sort of psychicly charged organism that bases itself in psychic powers to attain flight rather then wings (like a sort of "mother of all zoanthropes" on steroids).



As to why they would be slow well any ship which enters the atmosphere at speed will basically burn up as dictated by BFG fluff. This is just as true for nid craft. If they did move at the speeds they do in BFG they'd be on and off the table in a turn.

BFG fluff only goes as far. Tyranid ships ARE capable of entering atmospheres (read: planetary consumption), and the same goes for Kroot Warspheres btw. Presumably, they both have some manner of anti-gravitic propulsion to stabilize themselves in such a low orbit.

But yes, it would be more interesting to see something more tailored to AI, and it shouldn't be so much of a problem either. Tyranids have organisms that power their movement with chemically-fulled thrusters (so a SCRAM jet isn't that far-fetched).

Greblord
31-01-2007, 11:49
Tyranid ships ARE capable of entering atmospheres (read: planetary consumption), and the same goes for Kroot Warspheres btw

Oo modelling/scenario potential

:)

Slekith
31-01-2007, 12:21
I think that we are talking nonsense. Orbital ships against fighters?? Random moving clouds of Gargoyles or spores? What is next? A cloud of Swapping Hawks for the Eldar?

Let's do something interesting. Why don't you people post your ideas on a tyranid creature capable of flying at those speeds and match enemy aircrafts in air combat?? Names, drawings, stats, fluff.....

Spacker
31-01-2007, 12:31
I could see dark elder and maby tryanids but I don't see necrons haveing an airforce maby they'd come in has a ground target but thats about it as for the tryanids theyed be the slowest team but they could have a mouverbility and dark elder are actualy being discused in another thread so yeah..

Given the BFG Necron ships I can't see why Necrons wouldn't have atmospheric craft - even those tiny BFG fighters scaled up to AI would do nicely as "bomber" class. If the Necrons don't have any way to gain air superiority then they've going to become victims of high altitude bombing. Tyranids in fluff already have a counter to this with spore mines and changing the atmosphere into a toxic soup.

Sybaronde
31-01-2007, 12:35
Let's do something interesting. Why don't you people post your ideas on a tyranid creature capable of flying at those speeds and match enemy aircrafts in air combat?? Names, drawings, stats, fluff.....

I'll follow you up on it.

Iracundus
31-01-2007, 12:51
Necrons have no attack craft in BFG. The smallest BFG models for Necrons represent small escort sized ships, about destroyer sized.

The FW Necron Pylon seems to fulfill the general purpose role of ground turret, anti-Titan turret, AA turret, and ground to space weapon. In AI terms it'd probably be like the Tau AX-10 Railgun shot in stats and capable of reaching up to altitude 9. In other words, few shots but anything hit is going to be heavily damaged or one shot destroyed.

If you look at the FW stats for the Necron Pylon (or even the standard Monolith) and compare to the common bombs used by the Imperium you'll see that they are pretty much immune. Translated into AI terms, true immunity would obviously be overpowered, but any Necron structure is likely to have a large number of Hits and perhaps something like the Thunderbolt's ability to shrug off damage.

However with the Necrons lacking any atmospheric flyer of any sort right now and only an AA structure, it'd look pretty bland in AI. Enemy bombs Necrons, who shrug it off and fire individually powerful but low number of shots into the air, which mostly miss. Likely result: inconclusive stalemate

Spacker
31-01-2007, 14:02
Necrons have no attack craft in BFG. The smallest BFG models for Necrons represent small escort sized ships, about destroyer sized.


I stand corrected then. I've only seen the pics on the GW site (UK, not US) of the tiny little crescent ships (Dirge Class Raider) and assumed they were Thunderhawk sized, or maybe a little bigger.

Forbiddenknowledge
31-01-2007, 14:06
No, one of the things that they wanted to make crons different was a lack of attack craft. The thing is, its not very necron, to have them.
[dice0]

kris.sherriff
31-01-2007, 15:21
Ah but it's not the tyranids to have usable attack craft in AI but we have still been talking about it for 4 pages.

Cartographer
01-02-2007, 00:50
No, one of the things that they wanted to make crons different was a lack of attack craft. The thing is, its not very necron, to have them.
[dice0]

I just have in my head (and I blame WoW for this) a Huge floating Necron Necropolis, spewing out a charged lightning cloud and scouring the earth beneath with green particle weapons as it slowly floats forward. Orbited by clouds of scarabs and spewing Monoliths as landing craft in it's wake.

Just because there are no attack craft in BFG doesn't mean there couldn't be any in atmosphere, and again given what we have already seen of the Necron craft designs, the swept crescent shape of the smaller fighters (and the Cairn) wouldn't (IMO) look out of place in AI.

The difficulty would be representing their resilience, I don't think giving all their craft huge numbers of hits would work, but neither would a 4+ WBB save either (lol).
Possibly some sort of reenforcement rules, or teleporting destroyed craft out and back in fully repaired 2 turns later?

Hellebore
01-02-2007, 03:30
Sounds like something out of the Necron EPIC list to me: http://specialist-games.com/epic/Vault.asp

I still think that harridan broods would be fine in the game, with a Max speed of 2, 2 hit points, and 360 degree manoeuvrability.

They'd probably cost 8-10 points each, but their biocannons have a pretty long range, so they may be able to hit enemies even at long range.

Hellebore

Iracundus
01-02-2007, 03:40
Harridans are Gargantuan creatures, and hence should be at least 3 Hits to offset from the non-superheavy craft like Thunderbolts and Nightwings.

Again I'm not keen on 360 all round fire for main weaponry as that would seem to remove a degree of skill requirement from the player.

Duckman
01-02-2007, 05:10
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v634/sgtduckman/scan0003.jpg
here is what I think the nids Biojet would look like :>

Bravery exists
01-02-2007, 11:48
I lvoe the fuselage you've drawn their for the biojet but i think that the jet itself would be better somehow incorporated into the body, as i think tyranid flyers would be as aerodynamic as possible! perhaps even the mouth could be converted into the intake? its not likely to be doing much biting?

Tastyfish
01-02-2007, 14:20
Hmm, something like a winged whale, with the big mouth and baleen plates replaced with an air intake? Or perhaps a bit more like the mouth of a Sandworm from Dune or maybe based more off a Manta ray.

Imagine that its adapted from a Gas Giant dweller, it sucks in vast quantities of gas to harvest airplankton and then violently expells the gas/compresses and combusts it out the back to generate movement. Something between Manta ray and Squid would be best I think rather than a jet breed of Harridan.

Duckman
01-02-2007, 18:38
yeah thouse are some good Ideas I'll wip some thing up

Hellebore
02-02-2007, 00:19
Harridans are Gargantuan creatures, and hence should be at least 3 Hits to offset from the non-superheavy craft like Thunderbolts and Nightwings.

Again I'm not keen on 360 all round fire for main weaponry as that would seem to remove a degree of skill requirement from the player.

Their accuracy with structure to hit points is a little off though - vampires have 3 and 4, marauders have 3 and 4, and thunderhawks have 3 and 6?!

3 hit points is probably ok.

The reason I thought they should have all round firing is because with foldable wings an organic flyer and turn and pivot in mid-flight - a harridan could spin on the spot and face the opposite direction.

This is something a jet can't do (not even the eldar).

Hellebore

Iracundus
02-02-2007, 01:13
The problem as I see it is AI is supposed to be about maneuvering to get into firing position, either individually or as a group. All round fire arcs for main weaponry in Harridans then would mean they would have no need to really be concerned about getting into position. Granted given the horrible movement stats a lack of such need may help them but surely there are better ways...Their Very High maneuver class was already a nod to their agility.

Duckman
02-02-2007, 02:20
they wouldn't be able to turn on a dot because there winged creatures and it there going at speeds of over 500 km an hour they wouldn't be turning on a dot

Hellebore
02-02-2007, 02:52
they wouldn't be able to turn on a dot because there winged creatures and it there going at speeds of over 500 km an hour they wouldn't be turning on a dot

That's not a particularly insightful argument:eyebrows: :confused:

Flying animals do not have to worry about stalling, they can travel at max speed and fold their wings up, or fold up one, and use the other to spin around. Granted the bigger they are the slower they could do this, but compared to the turning speed of a jet it would effectively be instanteous.

Hellebore

Iracundus
02-02-2007, 03:20
My point is from the gameplay perspective: 360 arc gives no penalty for being outmaneuvered. Also by keeping it front arc, I was hoping to keep the point cost even lower.

Sybaronde
02-02-2007, 10:39
That's not a particularly insightful argument:eyebrows: :confused:

Flying animals do not have to worry about stalling, they can travel at max speed and fold their wings up, or fold up one, and use the other to spin around. Granted the bigger they are the slower they could do this, but compared to the turning speed of a jet it would effectively be instanteous.

Hellebore

Remember that inertia comes into play. Those harridans are huge and when they build up speed, they require a lot of energy to stop this forward movement. Even though it might be very realistic that they could almost turn on the spot, some sacrifices have to be made in order to facilitate balanced gameplay. From my experience with making Close Quarters, I did notice that "realism" didn't always prove to be a good guide for good gameplay.

And in this case, if you wanted more realism, then ultimately, you'd have to admit that Harridans would never be able to fly with their current proportions. If you'd scaled up a pterodoctyl by 5 times, it wouldn't have been able to achieve flight, much less stand upright.

Hellebore
02-02-2007, 10:51
I suppose my main thrust was that a flying creature is SOO much different to a jet aircraft, that it shouldn't just be represented as a slow moving High manoeuvrability air craft.

One way would be to allow them to move in any direction without using manoeuvre cards, another would be all round shots etc.

I just think that if you want to stretch the game to fit tyranids, they don't just end up as valkyrie wannabes.

Hellebore

Baaltharus
02-02-2007, 12:52
Jet fighter Nids don't belong in aeronauticus, its as simple as that.

Al.

orangesm
03-02-2007, 01:53
Give reasons for your opinion, be they there is nothing to support having them, they have another technique, etc, don't just disagree and state your opinion as the only possibility.

If a genome has space capable beings, how can one rule out that there are genes for a fast flyer. Just because life on Earth flies a certain way (and not even all of them fly the same birds versus insects) does not mean there is not life that developed a jet type propulsion system.

Sybaronde makes an excellent point that realism does not necessarily line up with the game, but this extends beyond just Tyranids, it extends to the game at large. It is Sci-Fi there is not any reason to exclude the Tyranids.

So what makes sense for Tyranids?
Seen before/fluff

large moving spore clouds/small creatures
large spores 'controlling' the smaller spores
large slow moving jump trooper transport


But this is in no way an exhaustive list - there is no reason there can not be Zerg type units.

Duckman
03-02-2007, 06:03
see the thing about spores is that theyd be no good all youd have to do is fly around them they'd be like the necrons and have to reliy solely on ground souport unless you made up a hole lota ne species of nids

Sybaronde
03-02-2007, 08:41
see the thing about spores is that theyd be no good all youd have to do is fly around them they'd be like the necrons and have to reliy solely on ground souport unless you made up a hole lota ne species of nids

Spores would be just one component of the army (to recognize standard Tyranid fluff). And we ARE discussing the creation of new species.

Baaltharus
03-02-2007, 13:25
Give reasons for your opinion, be they there is nothing to support having them, they have another technique, etc, don't just disagree and state your opinion as the only possibility.

If a genome has space capable beings, how can one rule out that there are genes for a fast flyer. Just because life on Earth flies a certain way (and not even all of them fly the same birds versus insects) does not mean there is not life that developed a jet type propulsion system.

Sybaronde makes an excellent point that realism does not necessarily line up with the game, but this extends beyond just Tyranids, it extends to the game at large. It is Sci-Fi there is not any reason to exclude the Tyranids.

So what makes sense for Tyranids?
Seen before/fluff

large moving spore clouds/small creatures
large spores 'controlling' the smaller spores
large slow moving jump trooper transport


But this is in no way an exhaustive list - there is no reason there can not be Zerg type units.


Perhaps my point was far too negative. However, what has been preposed for a nid 'fighter' simply pains me because it is far too many links with real world aircraft. If people want to do something nid they have to think outside the box. If its going to be nid it should be at least partially evolved in a real world context but not so much as to limit game balance/fun.

I may seem to be muddling my points (it should be real but not that real kinda thing) but let me explain. The nid aircraft should be evolved for flying, i.e. no teeth, no close combat weapons (unless its some sort of kamakazi beast). Its prepulsion shouldn't be based in the same way as jet prepulsion (in my mind, at least not purely). Since this would be the first variant of a nid flyer/intercepter it won't be as effective as some of the land and space counterparts.

You might consider the idea of the nid which is held aloft by gas, while maybe using some variant of bio plasma as propulsion. So now you have to ask which of the two categories of nids do these fighters fall into? Cannon fodder or Important. I ask this because there are two broad categories of nids, those which count for something and those which are effectively cannon fodder (the vast majority). The Hive mind has to come to a balance between production of the two as the more complex an organism is the more resources that have to be put into its creation.

So...in this case I'd suggest the cannon fodder model, its based at least partially on gas for flight and so is relatively vunerable to weapons fire while also having limited armour so it can fly. For this reason we could say that its hit points will be low (i.e. 1). On the other hand we could say its highly manouverable. Guns wise it could change being a nid, maybe an expensive variant with a venom cannon while others use the likes of devourers or kamikazi attacks.

Speed wise they might be quite slow in comparrison to other aircraft but you'll have a decent amount of them.

Keeping with the nidy feel of things we could introduce a large (Manta style) airborne unit. This could perhaps 'birth' and/or control the smaller 'interceptors' while spitting out its own fire power. This might be perhaps the linchpin of the nid force much like the likes of tyrants are on the ground. The large beasty could be more heavily armoured but be still based on gas for lift. It would be slow and clusmy due to its armour but its purpose wouldn't be engage directly so that doesn't matter. Being based on the same gas lift as its smaller counter parts we could say it takes 4 damage points instead of 2 when it takes a critical hit (just an idea).

Basically, nids shouldn't play as normal fighters but as something much more 'alien'.

Al.

Sybaronde
03-02-2007, 13:33
Good post Baaltharus. You bring some interesting ideas to the discussion. :)

In response to the large airborne unit, I've been working on a concept for a sort of small drone-ship (along the size of a manta), that levitates in the same style as zoanthropes do (I imagine that since most bio-ships seem to be hive-mind conduits, they could employ in the same manner as zoanthropes do when they keep themselves 'afloat').

orangesm
03-02-2007, 16:36
Thank you Baaltharus for the more thoughtful reply.

If a Bomber class Tyranid flyer, the Wyrm, was created with a 'natural fast' engine it could be made the Important aircraft with a swarm of smaller ones, Dragons, like Grot Bombs that are for going in and tearing it up. The Wyrm may only have rudimentary defenses, but a large capacity for Dragons (6). Tyranid rules might dictate that the Dragons can only get so far from a Wyrm or Hive Nod (ground defense Hive Mind), making the Wyrm a synapse creature. The Dragons would be the claws and nails, throw away units of the Tyranid air swarm with the Wyrms being the Important parts of the Air Swarm.

Baaltharus
03-02-2007, 16:36
Good post Baaltharus. You bring some interesting ideas to the discussion. :)

In response to the large airborne unit, I've been working on a concept for a sort of small drone-ship (along the size of a manta), that levitates in the same style as zoanthropes do (I imagine that since most bio-ships seem to be hive-mind conduits, they could employ in the same manner as zoanthropes do when they keep themselves 'afloat').

Quite a cool idea but I myself would like to stay clear of psychic propulsion as it seems a bit too 'out there' and its difficult to say how quick or manouverable a creature could be. Also a zoanthropes one of the most psychically powerful of the ground based nids and it can't float more than a few feet off the ground.

I however do like the psychic idea but in a different context. In one hand you have the nids synapse heirarchy and in the other you also have psychic offensive abilities.

What I prepose is an ability to target one or more aircraft with a psychic attack which effects the pilot. By basically messing with their mind, (the Tyranids Hive conscience scratching at their mind, screeching, scuttling, blackness, hunger, etc. The usual stuff that psykers are supposed to pick up) the nids stop the pilot from pulling off a new manouver in the upcoming turn. Lets say they have to continue to pull the same manouver they pulled last turn as they battle the intruding effects of the Hive mind. This power would be projected by the larger 'control ships'

The pilot could ignore it by passing the likes of a skill check.

The power could be used to make planes come into distance of dangerous spore clouds or the nids own 'interceptors'. Alternatively, if used cleverly they might cause the pilot to crash and burn.

Just some ideas...

Al.

Iracundus
04-02-2007, 01:22
Too many special rules and exceptions leads to a clunky and slowed down game and also codex creep. The goal should be to represent a race without half a page of special rules per unit.

Slekith
04-02-2007, 01:29
Too many special rules and exceptions leads to a clunky and slowed down game and also codex creep. The goal should be to represent a race without half a page of special rules per unit.

TRUE INDEED!

Baaltharus
04-02-2007, 12:41
Too many special rules and exceptions leads to a clunky and slowed down game and also codex creep. The goal should be to represent a race without half a page of special rules per unit.

Jeez such a short sighted view, you really think sticking another couple of 'fighters' with claws into the games a good idea? You think it'll truly show off a tyranid style in the air. I think not.

So far we have very few special rules, infact we have no special rules, we don't even have rules. All I've suggested were some ideas for an airforce which plays differently. One psychic power which for all intents and purposes is as simple as muck, not alot to it. I doubt it'll slow down the game. Give new ideas some consideration and breathing room before trying to shoot them down.

Al.

Baaltharus
04-02-2007, 13:03
Thank you Baaltharus for the more thoughtful reply.

If a Bomber class Tyranid flyer, the Wyrm, was created with a 'natural fast' engine it could be made the Important aircraft with a swarm of smaller ones, Dragons, like Grot Bombs that are for going in and tearing it up. The Wyrm may only have rudimentary defenses, but a large capacity for Dragons (6). Tyranid rules might dictate that the Dragons can only get so far from a Wyrm or Hive Nod (ground defense Hive Mind), making the Wyrm a synapse creature. The Dragons would be the claws and nails, throw away units of the Tyranid air swarm with the Wyrms being the Important parts of the Air Swarm.


Yeah this is largely what I had invisioned. The smaller fighters wouldn't be able to gain experience themselves but the larger 'Wyrm' could (taking into account its intelligence and evolution in combat).

The 'Kamakazi' dragons would act like a aircraft, but if they came into contact with an enemy aircraft both the dragon and enemy aircraft would take D3 points of damage (if dragons only have a single HP then this would obviously just auto kill them).

For the enemy they could avoid the attack by taking a skill check to dodge out of the way.

I was thinking that each Wyrm might be able to control between say four and six dragons at a time.

Further rules might allow them to spawn two (rather than a random number to save time) at the cost of a Hit Point.

Potential limited range due to Synapse (might be a bit dodgy if people are wanting to save time as it would mean a bit more measuring each turn).

Psychic Interference as stated in previous post.

Wyrms might act as bombers/troop carriers in the same way. In both contexts they could drop spores filled with nids (like those dropped from orbit by the Hive Ships) like a bombing run which in turn counts towards the damage done to ground targets or troops landed (representing the nids ground forces overunning defences and such). I think this would be more inkeeping with the nid swarm feel rather than having bombers per say. It would also make troop deliveries different but simple. Nid landings are costly but they tend to get alot of troops on the ground and this could represent it.


Image wise I was thinking something like a stretched out overlord (StarCraft), something bulbous but with standard tyranid plating. Hits wise I was thinking somewhere between 6-10. It really would require some play testing.

Just some thoughts.

Al.

Sybaronde
04-02-2007, 13:20
Quite a cool idea but I myself would like to stay clear of psychic propulsion as it seems a bit too 'out there' and its difficult to say how quick or manouverable a creature could be. Also a zoanthropes one of the most psychically powerful of the ground based nids and it can't float more than a few feet off the ground.

I however do like the psychic idea but in a different context. In one hand you have the nids synapse heirarchy and in the other you also have psychic offensive abilities.
[...]


The psychic propulsion isn't actually that far from 40k. A lot of creatures gain flight or hover based on their psychic energy (especially in Inquisitor, you have human-sized brains that practically allow humanoids to float without problems). As far as the Zoanthrope goes, you're right. However, the kind of mass we're talking about would probably have a far more conductive brain size and otherwise more powerful psychic physiology.

As for Nids using psychic powers in air combat, it's perfectly doable. Some powers could simply act as ranged weaponry.

Another idea I had the other day, btw, was that Tyranid organisms could perhaps haemorrage after suffering crits, instead of taking 4x damage.

Finally, a few thematic special rules wouldn't necessearily harm the Tyranid air force. However, exaggerating them wouldn't help either. :p

Baaltharus
04-02-2007, 13:51
The psychic propulsion isn't actually that far from 40k. A lot of creatures gain flight or hover based on their psychic energy (especially in Inquisitor, you have human-sized brains that practically allow humanoids to float without problems). As far as the Zoanthrope goes, you're right. However, the kind of mass we're talking about would probably have a far more conductive brain size and otherwise more powerful psychic physiology.

The problem I'm seeing is not getting off the ground because as you've said alot of psychic creatures seem to have the ability to float or hover but its not the same as true flight IMO.

Also I've come to view the psychic gene as costly/dangerous to replicate in terms of tyranid production (otherwise everything from Bio-Titans to gaunts would surely be brimming with psychic death rather than the basic latent joining of the Hive Mind). Obviously you could explain this simply in terms of game balance but theres often some reason given for something being the case and I kind of think this would be it.

That said if the majority of people liked the idea of psychic flight then I'll bow before popular opinion. Course it could be neither, we could simply say how it flies remains as yet unknown.

I do like the idea of Haemoraging though, how would this work in comparrison to normal critical hits?

Al.

Iracundus
04-02-2007, 14:12
Depending on how one chooses to split hairs, I counted anywhere from 4-6 special rules or exceptions to the normal game mechanics already in those ideas for what is 1, maybe 2 units. That is exactly the sort of special rules overloading that should be avoided. A race can be made without making them have special exceptions to such a wide range of basic game mechanics..

azimaith
04-02-2007, 14:59
Is there some reason why tyranids can't use "Tyranid Escort" and Tyranid "Vanguard" drones in AI?

They're from battlefleet gothic and they can keep up with Imperial Craft in space. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch for them operate in lower altitudes pending some biomodifications.

Baaltharus
04-02-2007, 15:06
Most of them are no more exceptions to the rules than holofield or grot bombs. They are simply race specific traits. Whats being done is trying to create a unique feel to an airforce which shouldn't be represented in a 'conventional' way.

If you think arguing for nid fighter jets is the way to go then go for it. I myself don't like that particular idea.

Al.

Baaltharus
04-02-2007, 15:08
Is there some reason why tyranids can't use "Tyranid Escort" and Tyranid "Vanguard" drones in AI?

They're from battlefleet gothic and they can keep up with Imperial Craft in space. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch for them operate in lower altitudes pending some biomodifications.

The problem with this is that they would dwarf everything in the game. They also propably wouldn't be able to fly in the atmosphere as only Hive ships have demonstrated the ability to break into the atmosphere without burning up.

Al.

Sybaronde
04-02-2007, 16:42
The problem I'm seeing is not getting off the ground because as you've said alot of psychic creatures seem to have the ability to float or hover but its not the same as true flight IMO.

Also I've come to view the psychic gene as costly/dangerous to replicate in terms of tyranid production (otherwise everything from Bio-Titans to gaunts would surely be brimming with psychic death rather than the basic latent joining of the Hive Mind). Obviously you could explain this simply in terms of game balance but theres often some reason given for something being the case and I kind of think this would be it.


The 'floating' part would be basically to make it partially airborne. For the rest, it could probably just utilize the same manner of propulsion as classical bioships (I think that's some sort of chemical based reaction).

As for the psychic gene (for lack of a better term), I think it's quite commonly distributed according to specific roles. All tyranids seem to be receptible to telepathy, but the 'commanding' tyranid species are essentially psykers (synapse). So it isn't particularly uncommon, imho (on a ground force, you have three amongst twelves species with psychic capacity (that is, a minimum of synapse)).




I do like the idea of Haemoraging though, how would this work in comparrison to normal critical hits?


Basically, I imagined that a Tyranid creature that suffers from haemmorage will loose a hitpoint each turn on a roll of 4+ or something.

Baaltharus
04-02-2007, 18:06
The 'floating' part would be basically to make it partially airborne. For the rest, it could probably just utilize the same manner of propulsion as classical bioships (I think that's some sort of chemical based reaction).

As for the psychic gene (for lack of a better term), I think it's quite commonly distributed according to specific roles. All tyranids seem to be receptible to telepathy, but the 'commanding' tyranid species are essentially psykers (synapse). So it isn't particularly uncommon, imho (on a ground force, you have three amongst twelves species with psychic capacity (that is, a minimum of synapse)).


Basically, I imagined that a Tyranid creature that suffers from haemmorage will loose a hitpoint each turn on a roll of 4+ or something.

Well you say its uncommon but in fluff terms the properly psychic tyranids are very rare, theres supposed to be thousands of gaunts, gargoyles, stealers and the rest of the gribblies for every Hive Tyrant and brood of Zoanthropes. While techically all nids have some basic level of psychic connection its not really the same thing. As well as this some of these synapse creatures aren't proper psykers so to speak such as Tyranid warriors which are largely just amplifiers of the Hive minds psychic projection.


If we do come to settle on psychic or gas lift we could say the maximum altitude of the nid Wyrm could be quite limited (say 6).

Again, just an idea.


The haemmoraging rule could work but I think it'd be best if the haemmoraging stopped on a 1-3 but continued to bleed out on 4-6 otherwise it might be a bit unfair as the Nid simply bleeds to death without any more hits being done to it.

Alternatively the normal critical hit rule could be used. I'd be happy with either.

Al.

Zzarchov
04-02-2007, 18:33
Anyone thought of Biomass feeder tendrils?

Make them occupy all altitude levels.

The other option is Low Tech PDF Jets run by Genestealer Cults.

Baaltharus
04-02-2007, 18:41
Biomass feeder tendrils would be massive and they only get deployed when the world can no longer defend itself so in all likelihood the plantary airforces would most probably have been overrun and wiped out.

As to genestealer cults in the air, as amusing as it is I'd have to really have to say a big no to that one lol. Plus if they were PDF its pretty impossible to say what aircraft they'd have, they might have everything from Navy craft to biplanes depending on the world....Genestealers in biplanes...genious! I've changed my mind Stealer cults are the way to go!

Al.

Zzarchov
04-02-2007, 22:14
You could do a series of primitive aircraft.

Slow Prop driven bombers with weak turrets (heavy stubbers) everywhere.

Fast, Fragile and poorly armed Rocket craft with no agility

medium speed, medium agility Jet aircraft with average firepower..

And of course insane morale rules (Kamikazee strikes on ground targets?)

max the dog
19-10-2007, 04:49
Here's a few thought after reading 6 pages.
From Spores to Harridans?? What about all the stuff in between?
Tyranid Warriors and Hive Tyrants also fly and yes I'm fully aware that they'd be completely outclassed by the weakest AI fighters. They should be. To the hive mind they're disposable and would be perfect for a suicide attack on a fighter. Even if it meant the death of the warrior or tyrant it would still be well worth it in the eyes of the hive mind. Would the rules of AI preculde such a suicide attack? If a mid air collision with a 2 kilo goose can take out today's fighter jets than I'm sure a purposefull mid air collision with 500-2,000 kilo's of warrior or tyrant's tooth and claw should have no problem taking out a Valkrie, Lightning, or Thunderbolt. Massive numbers would be needed to do this so it would probably be the warriors or the tyrants who would be the true gaunts of the sky.

As far as nids flying fast I don't see a problem with it. After all if the hive mind can focus it's power to warp blast a land raider to pieces then why can't it also us that power to propell it faster through the air. It uses it's wings to fly into the air, then folds them up tight against it's body, then uses it's warp powers to thrust it to speed. Even if it's only for short burst of speed at the expense of manuverability and the ability to shoot in any direction. To me this is what a Harridan is, a brutally tough but slow cruising beast that suddenly charges in making a bloody mess of everything. Maybe it's warp propelled burst of speed would allow it to be quick enough to catch another poorly manuvered aircraft and rip it from the sky. This short term burst of speed combined with a suicide attack would certantly make the nids a much more alien type of enemy to play against.

Why hasn't anyone thought of spore chimney's? I don't like the idea of models of floating spores that can be easily manuvered around when the nid fluff describes clounds of spores that deny whole area's from being flown through. Aircraft flying near a spore chimney would run the risk of an encounter with a spore mine just as much as flying near a AA gun would risk being shot down. To me that describes an AA weapon. That would bring it back into line with the basic rules of the game. Of course Nids have access to other AA platforms like Fex's, Heirophants and Hierodules.

Darnok
19-10-2007, 09:22
Why hasn't anyone thought of spore chimney's? I don't like the idea of models of floating spores that can be easily manuvered around when the nid fluff describes clounds of spores that deny whole area's from being flown through. Aircraft flying near a spore chimney would run the risk of an encounter with a spore mine just as much as flying near a AA gun would risk being shot down. To me that describes an AA weapon. That would bring it back into line with the basic rules of the game. Of course Nids have access to other AA platforms like Fex's, Heirophants and Hierodules.

:eek:

I just slapped myself to the forehead. Of course you are right! If I ever finish my WIP Nid flyers, I'd like to steal your idea and add a few spore chimneys. :)

orangesm
19-10-2007, 12:55
The Spore Chimneys are a great idea and one I will work on fitting into the current ruleset. The Tyranid air discussion covers more than just AI it also reaches into Epic, where the use a dedicated AA unit was difficult to come up with. Again the Spore Chimneys would be awesome to include, just have to balance them right and give them a nice feel.

max the dog
19-10-2007, 23:41
Heck I just want to see FW do some of these models.

Give me your honest opinion, do you think that my other idea's on a warrior or tyrant suicide attack and a tyrant or harridan warp thrust has merit? Personally I don't think that gargoyles (even though I love them) have a valid place in AI. They're just too weak compared to the fighters to do much even if there are hundreds of them working together. On the other hand warriors, tyrants and harridans can be a threat to these vehicles in 40K so should be at least capable of being a threat in AI.
As far as special rules for just the nids to make them competitive, why not. Nids in 40K have lots of special rules or attacks that don't draw any compaints so why couldn't there be a couple special rules in AI?

rkunisch
19-10-2007, 23:49
I think the idea with the warriors or tyrants does not fit the background very well. The hive mind produces highly adapted creatures that are perfectly suited for the task at hand. You are right that it would may be possible to fight against flyers with numbers, but it would be very ineffective and that is not the way of the hive.

Have fun,

Rolf.