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Wood Eldar
19-01-2007, 10:24
How can Wood Elves be cheesy/broken?
What units make it cheesy/broken?

The SkaerKrow
19-01-2007, 11:02
Two Treemen + Highborn on Dragon + lots of Glade Guard, usually.

Caern
19-01-2007, 14:00
Every Wood Elf unit can be smashed apart utterly because they all have a proper counter. They are extremely frail with the exception of Dryads and Tree Kin and must be used properly in the first place to suceed.

Now if an opponent didn't bring a good balanced army to deal with these things, that's their own failing. Got owned by Glade Guard? Where was all your cavalry? I mean Glade Guard aren't even really powerful, they're a far cry from a dwarven gunline or an empire gunline, their value is largely psychological and tactical by making you do stupid things to try and stop the shooting. Get smoked by Wild Riders? Better watch those flanks more carefully in the future, bait them, or shoot them, depending on what's available to your army. And so on. All Wood Elf units have a weakness, and a good Wood Elf player does what they can to minimise those weaknesses.

They are an army that succeeds and fails entirely on their general. You can't play Wood Elves if you have no skill and win unless you are rolling 6's like mad, or unless your opponent also has no skill.

ffarsight
19-01-2007, 14:11
You can't play Wood Elves if you have no skill and win unless you are rolling 6's like mad, or unless your opponent also has no skill.


I agree with the part "you canīt win if you have no skill", but the rest is not like that, a GOOD wood elves players can give a massacre to other experiente player with the right tactic, and not ONLY rolling 6īs.

Caern
19-01-2007, 14:58
I agree with the part "you canīt win if you have no skill", but the rest is not like that, a GOOD wood elves players can give a massacre to other experiente player with the right tactic, and not ONLY rolling 6īs.

That's not quite what I said. The sentence of my structure reads so that I have said that you cannot win by: Having no skill *unless* you are rolling 6's all the time. I know very well how capable a good general is at massacring a poorly-constructed or not very well played force, and agree with you on that.

EvC
19-01-2007, 15:12
A good Wood Elf general will defeat most other army generals of equal skill on most occasions. In my experience of a few tournaments, that is.

What do you do if Glade Guard are skulking in some woods with a Treeman nearby? You can't do anything to the Treeman, and if you attack the Glade Guard, all kinds of Elven woodiness will get to you. Psychology works against almost nothing in the army, and anything that is vulnerable still has high leadership. Saying to simply "bait" any unit is ridiculous, as a good opposing general won't take such bait- instead, they'll nip 18" round your flank and then shoot you up some more. Wood Elves have far too many advantages, in my opinion.

Alex Under
19-01-2007, 15:24
More than 100 glade guards and scouts in a 1500 battle: They shoot everything against the fastest units and whipe them out, I've seen dragons, chosen knights (8+ units) and really expensive characters wiped off in one turn. Think about it: 100 shots at 4+ is around 50 impacts. A unit with toughness 4 has a 33% chance of being injured at long range (50% at short range), so that makes an average of 17 wounds you have to save... That's if the WE player is only half lucky.

Of course, I've seen this army lose against bretonnians and other armies, but they sure are cheesy.

ffarsight
19-01-2007, 15:28
OK, Caern, i understand what you said, sorry about that,

I donīt think they are overpowered, because they do lack of numbers, and still can loose a combat with a ranked unit, donīt forget dryads, wardancers, scouts and waywatchers are skirmishers and donīt negate rank bonus, we canīt get wild riders and riders to the flank everytime.

Also, we got screwed with double pace, sometimes i get my skirmishers over runned by cavarly.

Still, i agree that its a very pro and good army.

Chicago Slim
19-01-2007, 16:39
I'm one of those who doesn't believe that there's anything in the game that is cheesy or broken. There ARE tactics and item combos that I don't particularly enjoy playing against (generally, because they limit the tactical choices in the game, which is what I find interesting and enjoyable; some limit tactical choices by requiring a particular response; others limit tactical choices by being too easy to beat).

I've fielded wood elves with 100% longbows (literally, every model in the army), and it works, though it definitely limits my opponent's tactical responses (aka "cheese"). I've also fielded wood elves with no bows at all, which also works (and is also limiting to my opponent's tactical choices, since it generally means having lots of hard-hitting troops: 2 Treemen, a unit of Tree Kin, 2 units of Wild Riders, some Wardancers, and a bunch of Dryads).

So, if you believe in cheese, then Wood Elves are definitely capable of producing it. Because of their difficulty in making a "balanced" army (they're enormously manueverable and extremely fragile), Wood Elves tend to extremes, which is usually where people start talking about "cheese"....

Haydog
19-01-2007, 18:36
As a wood elf player I'm finding that I'm winning most of my fights against opponents simply because they aren't familiar with the wood elf army, skirmishing units and the variety of special units and rules. However I'm finding a huge learning curve between my first time fights and the second time fights. It's kind of like playing against undead who would just massacre people and not lose a point but sooner or later people begin to figure out how to beat you. So anybody can call any army cheesy or broken specially if they seem to be winning a lot but sooner or later somebodys going to figure it out.

The SkaerKrow
19-01-2007, 20:18
I've had three different people in my Warhammer group quit playing Wood Elves because they think that their armies (the ones that they've gone to the trouble of paying hundreds of dollars for) are broken. They want to play "real" armies, which involve proper strategy and and don't get by on a dozen special abilities. Take that for what you will.

sulla
19-01-2007, 20:37
I've had three different people in my Warhammer group quit playing Wood Elves because they think that their armies (the ones that they've gone to the trouble of paying hundreds of dollars for) are broken. They want to play "real" armies, which involve proper strategy and and don't get by on a dozen special abilities. Take that for what you will.

I can't comment on how powerful or 'broken' the WE are as I have never played them but I was a little dissapointed when I first got their book to see just how many special rules they needed... 2 pages of army special rules, 2 pages of spite, 2 pages of kindreds plus magic items means a lot of crutches for WE. A shame they couldn't have simplified them a little... maybe it's a pointer to how many rules elven armies really need to be competitive.

The SkaerKrow
19-01-2007, 20:40
I should clarify that I don't completely agree that their armies were broken (that was their assessment, not mine). There are a lot of things in the WE book that I believe could have been done better, but I've managed to carve out an even number of Wins and Losses against Asrai.

mightygnoblar
19-01-2007, 22:59
of the two pages of special rules overhalf of them are unit based and do not effect the whole army,
wood elves are really a specialised army and winning with then requires a good combination of list composition, tactics and those few sneaky tricks that you might have up your sleeve (moving woods for example) they dont really have a "perfect" composition and generaly tend towards extremes, all bows-no bows that kind of thing
personally wood elves are my favourite army to play as i actually have to think about what i am doing, and can't just run forward and hope for the best

Kahadras
19-01-2007, 23:24
I think some armies would have a massive problem against Wood Elves from the get go. I just looked at the Dogs of War army I'm planning to collect and winced when imagining playing against Wood Elves. You have deep block infantry with a 5+ save? Limited shooting and a very reasonable amount of cavalry? Great!

I can see my army getting hammered by Wood elves. I think it's mainly down to how differently Wood Elves play to the other armies in Warhammer. That being said I don't think they are that 'cheesy' or 'broken' I just think some armies get a difficult draw against them.

Kahadras

Chicago Slim
20-01-2007, 00:31
...just how many special rules they needed... 2 pages of army special rules, 2 pages of spite, 2 pages of kindreds plus magic items means a lot of crutches for WE. A shame they couldn't have simplified them a little...

I agree that there's a lot of special rules for the Woodies, but it's hardly unprecedented. How many pages in the Empire army book are dedicated just to explaining the detachment rules? Or in the Beasts book for their special rules (Ambush and Raiders, in particular, take about a page each, as I recall), or the Brettonian Virtues, or the Tomb King's magic rules?

The point I'm making is, every army book has special rules, and if you don't know those rules before you sit down to a game, you're liable to get reamed.


maybe it's a pointer to how many rules elven armies really need to be competitive.

Notably, the Wood Elves were quite competitive under the White Dwarf list (most recent official rules, prior to the current book), which was maybe 8 pages of text, in total.

EvC
20-01-2007, 13:27
The point I'm making is, every army book has special rules, and if you don't know those rules before you sit down to a game, you're liable to get reamed.

The amount of rules for Wood Elves dwarfs any other army book in comparison. And yes as you say, not knowing them in advance can make a hard task ever harder.

Reinnon
20-01-2007, 13:59
Two Treemen + Highborn on Dragon + lots of Glade Guard, usually.

trust me, its nearly impossible to get 2 treeman and a dragon in a 2000 point force, i've tried it :)

Heretic Burner
20-01-2007, 15:21
Of course it is easy to bring the cheddar. It isn't a coincidence that WE are found at the top ten of virtually every tournament ever held since the book came out. A couple of treemen and a BSB. Loading up on underpriced 8 strong units of dryads. Tree surfing, etc, etc, etc. Quite frankly even a novice player should have little trouble coming up with a list capable of competing with tier one armies with little trouble.

They are one of the big three armies out there (Skaven and Brets being the others). Perhaps more than any other army out there they can take advantage of undercosted units to a great degree and it simply pays off in WAAC.

I hope this answers your question.

rockforchumps
20-01-2007, 17:07
I don't really think that Wood Elves can be cheesy except for the all archer route. The rest of their lists are fun and competitive but they all have their weaknesses.

mightygnoblar
20-01-2007, 23:56
[QUOTE=Heretic Burner;1231109] Quite frankly even a novice player should have little trouble coming up with a list capable of competing with tier one armies with little trouble. QUOTE]

I think that this is very untrue, striking the balance in a wood elf army can be hard to do, and even with a well built list the player must know its strenghts and weaknesses inside out in order to get the best out of it, as after all it is still a very fragile army and must rely on good movement and flank chargers to have any hope of breaking down strong infantry blocks

The SkaerKrow
21-01-2007, 03:39
trust me, its nearly impossible to get 2 treeman and a dragon in a 2000 point force, i've tried it :)
But easy enough at 2,250, which is what my group plays.

lokigod
21-01-2007, 08:16
hmm I play wood elves, and they are my third army and my true love so far. I think the problem most people have with wood elves is there not used to playing an army that excels at dancing around them. This game is 80% of the time decided in the movement phase and wood eleves tend to own this phase. Not only are they skirmishers but they move the trees and block you in. I love the wood elves cause they are an army of extremes or a very balanced army at the same time. I would have to say all the people in my gaming group(20 people) Say the wood elves list is very balanced. Although if you dont know there special rules you are really skrewed. oh btw want special rules look at the new orc codex.....

Anyway I think as stated before wood elves tend to frustrate most people because they hit and move and take you apart peice meal. A good wood elf general has to think a turn in advance and set up many traps to get a massacre. This should not be seen as cheese but as skill...

oh btw flaming sucks for wood elves just a tip to the guy said 2 treemen are cheese:) Also they get no ward saves vs. magic lol

Jonahmaul
21-01-2007, 10:43
All armies can be cheesy or broken, it is down to the player using them. If you are playing somebody who enjoys the game & plays for fun the likelihood is you'll get a fairly balanced army, probably chosen because the player likes the models or has just bought & painted something knew so wanted to try it out. If you are playing a WAAC player then you are going to get a very cheesy army list where they have chosen models simply to frustrate their opponent & get the win as easily as possible.

ThePete
21-01-2007, 17:57
A good Wood Elf general will defeat most other army generals of equal skill on most occasions. In my experience of a few tournaments, that is.

What do you do if Glade Guard are skulking in some woods with a Treeman nearby? You can't do anything to the Treeman, and if you attack the Glade Guard, all kinds of Elven woodiness will get to you. Psychology works against almost nothing in the army, and anything that is vulnerable still has high leadership. Saying to simply "bait" any unit is ridiculous, as a good opposing general won't take such bait- instead, they'll nip 18" round your flank and then shoot you up some more. Wood Elves have far too many advantages, in my opinion.

Except for that whole immune to psych cant choose charge reaction flee thing.

Ashnari Doomsong
21-01-2007, 18:09
So, basically, Wood Elves are not cheesy but rather the milder variant "Woody"?

EvC
21-01-2007, 18:11
That's one relatively minor disadvantage to a great advantage, but overall the point still stands.

Kahadras
21-01-2007, 19:26
Again I think that whether Wood Elves are 'broken' depends on the army that they are facing. An army designed to take out Wood Elves will probably do OK along with a few random races (Beastmen and Skaven come to mind) that are set up well to negate some of the natural advantages that Wood Elves have.

Other armies with what would be seen as a well rounded force will probably be easily beaten. Seen as the Wood Elves really aren't a 'normal' army by any strech of the imagination.

Kahadras

- Human
21-01-2007, 20:50
Theyre not broken, but yes they can be cheezy.

I dont know what mightygnoblar is talking about... Striking balance is quite easy. How many times have you seen a list like this?

lord caster (standard kit)
alter noble (standard kit)
bsb/branchwraith (netlings/cluster)

2 units of GG
2 units of Dryads

5/6 Wild Riders
7-8 Wardancers
A few treekin/warhawks/more wardancers (this is where it usually varies)

1 Treeman
Eagle

It's very easy to find a balance with wood elves. But that's not even the problem. it's just abuse of their undercosted units that makes them cheesy. These are:

Treeman
Dryads

That's it, but they really do make a difference. Everyone takes them.

chase123
21-01-2007, 21:50
No one in my group plays Woodies, but the Treeman/Dragon thing reminds me of the venerable "Thunderlizard" which replaces the former with Stegadons and the latter with a Carnosaur. Cheesy or not, it's not a whole lot of fun to play against.

mightygnoblar
21-01-2007, 23:43
what i meant was that a complete novice would not be able to pick up the book and write the perfect army straight away, as im betting it took you at least a few games to work out which unit worked well with what and tried a few different combinations of items before ariving at your "standard kit"
also dryads are not underpoints, 12pts per model is pretty expensive, its normally the fact that they can afford to take min sized squads with no command that makes them so cheap

Heretic Burner
22-01-2007, 02:08
Dryads are indeed vastly underpriced, undoubtedly the best skirmishers in the game bar none. It's very easy for a novice to play a WE army and succeed (granted against players of their skill level or those playing weaker armies). It doesn't take long at all to find out what units are drastically underpriced and load up on them. Sure this won't work out in the long run if you rely on it but it will definitely win many games on its own against other novices.

And really how hard is it to determine the "standard kit" anyway? One look at any of the army lists out there and you'll come across the same units taken again and again. It certainly is no coincidence that when someone states alter noble with standard kit you've got a pretty good idea what that entails.

Alter noble. 7 Wardancers. Units of 8 dryads. Treemen. The vast majority of WE lists will contain this. Why? They're absolute no brainers in terms of point cost/effectiveness.

WE are undoubtedly a very broken army as it stands. It almost makes it a good thing there are two other vastly overpowered armies to take it on. Almost.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
22-01-2007, 12:33
I am going to go out on a limb and say that I despise the Wood Elf army. Whether I win or lose agains the army, I just do not enjoy playing against it. It just breaks too many of the fundamental aspects of Warhammer in my opinion. I don't find it fun chasing a skirmishing army around for 6 turns. I play this game to have blocks of troops maneuvering for charges and engaging in combat. Wood Elves just completely wreck this dynamic and I just can't stand the army.

In friendly games I even decline playing against them from time to time, due to their amazing ability to suck all the fun out of a game...

Tili
22-01-2007, 13:02
heh, that I dont think you'll like to play against my army, Only ghouls and flying strigoi vampires, and some black knights. Ghouls are also on par with dryads in terms of cost effectivness, and they have a very old book.

Ive played many games agiants the woodies and, It suffers from the same problem that the lizardmen have. Every body stacks up on those very good and cheap units and all the other stuff is just left behind...

Kinda sad really but what are you going to do about it ?

John Wayne II
22-01-2007, 15:17
Dryads are indeed vastly underpriced, undoubtedly the best skirmishers in the game bar none. It's very easy for a novice to play a WE army and succeed (granted against players of their skill level or those playing weaker armies). It doesn't take long at all to find out what units are drastically underpriced and load up on them. Sure this won't work out in the long run if you rely on it but it will definitely win many games on its own against other novices.

And really how hard is it to determine the "standard kit" anyway? One look at any of the army lists out there and you'll come across the same units taken again and again. It certainly is no coincidence that when someone states alter noble with standard kit you've got a pretty good idea what that entails.

Alter noble. 7 Wardancers. Units of 8 dryads. Treemen. The vast majority of WE lists will contain this. Why? They're absolute no brainers in terms of point cost/effectiveness.

WE are undoubtedly a very broken army as it stands. It almost makes it a good thing there are two other vastly overpowered armies to take it on. Almost.

Oh great, another rant :rolleyes: . I would not say that Wood Elves are broken, powerful yes, but definitely not broken.

In 7th edition, a lot of the units got nerfed. Dryads and Wardancers can be march blocked, so the all skirmisher army isn't as powerful. Alter characters are a joke now, since they can be targeted by shooting. Who wants to spend 100+ points on a T3 character with little armour that can be targeted by shooting? They still have their place, but you have to be a lot more careful now.

The Treeman is powerful, but it's expensive and for such a large monster it's a tad slow (M5). And LD8 isn't all that reliable, even when it's stubborn. The most common cause for Treeman death is a failed leadership test.

Von Wibble
22-01-2007, 16:33
Completely agree with John Wayne II there. Treemen might be good value for points, but 30 goblins with full command beat them every time. They need support, and on a 300pt odd model thats not good.

An army with lots of bows - how do they all get to fire exactly? They will lose out to a shooty tomb king or empire force badly. 2 units of 10 glade guard + glade riders and characters is quite sufficient.

Like most armies, if you min/max the shooting, magic or movement you will create unbalanced forces. But its not as bad as the extremes in magic that Chaos can go to, the cavaly heavy possibilities in Chaos, Brets, Empire, High Elves, Skink heavy Lizardmen, gunline empire/ dwarfs, just to name some examples. 2 Treemen unlike 2 steam tanks can be broken and can't shoot.

Speaking as a wood elf player (if you hadn't guessed by the content above!) I think they are the most balanced army in the game (exceptions are orcs and goblins, and empire).

There are no armies I think will have a great chance against me - normally either dwarfs or brets will do that.

But there are no easy armies to face either - regarding the post about dogs of war earlier pikemen will do a lot of damage to charging wood elf units and your marksmen of miragliano slaughter glade guard in a missile duel. Horde armies although vulnerable to precision charges and psychology can cramp your movement by flooding the table. And any army with access to a decent magic phase is dangerous as magic missiles kill dryads and wardancers very efficiently.

Tbh I feel the problem wood elves have is that they do well because opponents aren't geared for dealing with them thanks to their different fighting style and special rules (yes there are a lot but all elves need them - I hope high elves get a similar amount in their next book). In 40k sisters of battle are similar. The trick to learning how to beat them is merely experience, and patience.

Muncher666
23-01-2007, 02:41
I don't play WE's, but I can say quite happily that Treemen are NOT underpriced. They're more expensive than your average tooled up general, sans mounts.

Allan.

greenskin
23-01-2007, 02:54
All armies can be cheesy or broken, it is down to the player using them.
Please feel free to PM me that broken O&G list. :rolleyes:

feintstar
23-01-2007, 03:07
I'm surprised that no-one has mentioned wildriders, with regards to underpriced units.

They're about as survivable as heavy cavalry, hit as hard in the first round and much harder in the following rounds, cause fear, have ward saves, MR1, immune to psych, move through woods without penalty, are incredibly fast, and are fast cavalry to boot.

Really, they're sickening, especially for their points cost. Most players have a lot more reason to be afraid of these than against a unit of Chaos Chosen: Chosen don't cause fear and are too slow, and where a wildrider unit can usually break a unit in a frontal charge, it usually will be able to flank charge.

Any infantry list up vs wood elves will see their battleline fall apart under the deluge of outmanuvering, and unless you can counter with either equivalent manuvering (nearly impossible) or way more units, you will only ever be fighting on the enemy's terms, and you will lose.

The other thing is that sickening reroll dispell staff. Added to a dryad or two, and that's enough to make any Magic army throw up in disgust. No one can match that kind of dispell power, except maybe Tzeentch with the staff of change. In order to win a game of WH, you need to dominate 2 phases and contest the others. With that staff alone, they can destroy anyone's magic phase. The already own movement. That leaves shooting and combat, both of which they excell at. Any battle vs WE is therefore going to be uphill, and my respects to those who seem to win - I've only ever seen Ogres suceed myself.

I have a theory though, on those who feel WE are balanced vs those (like me) who are bitter.

It all comes down to terrain.

My gaming group is lucky to face the WE on a table with less than 3 forests plus more terrain on top of that. (2 forests and 2 hills/a building would be normal vs any other opponent, hence 3 forests and massive overcrowding once the WE hit the deck) Any chance at outshooting/manuvering to protect flanks vanishes instantly when faced with 40K style manuvering from the WE, which other lists cannot match. Try to build a fortress of unassailability when you are surrounded by obstacles that he can pass and you can't.

Kahadras
23-01-2007, 10:37
regarding the post about dogs of war earlier pikemen will do a lot of damage to charging wood elf units and your marksmen of miragliano slaughter glade guard in a missile duel.

Thse are exceedingly specific circumstances though. The Pikemen will do a lot of damage if they reach the Wood elves but this is exceedingly unlikely to happen. Most WE players that I know would just stay out of charge range and pepper the unit with bow fire. Strength 3 and a 5 plus armour save means that you can easily start stripping ranks off the unit.

As to the Marksmen slaughtering Glade guard. They have a BS of 4 and a move or fire weapon. Glade guard have a BS of 4 and move and fire weapon and ignore penalties for moving and shooting. I'd say this gurantees the Wood elves shooting first, therefore reducing the number of Marksmen that can fire back. Things only get worse when you realise that the points difference between the units (at an equal size of ten) is huge with the Marksmen weighing in at 60 points more than the Glade Guard. There is also the fact that you can only take one units of Marksmen while the Wood Elf general can take multiple Glade Guard units.

By all rights the Marksmen should slaughter the Glade Guard but they won't.

Kahadras

mightygnoblar
23-01-2007, 17:20
i think that your all forgeting that when it comes down to it wood elves are the most fragile army in the game, once in unit becomes surrounded or stranded in the open it is easy to take out, they are also not very good at receiving the charge
as a wood elf player myself i know that brets will run you into the ground anyday, as the cuts down your time to manouver by getting there so quick, and skaven can noramally zap you with so much wrap lightening that you often won't get off the starting line, also a careless mistake against a dwarf army with even a small amount of shooting can be crippling

Peachy
23-01-2007, 22:44
"I'm surprised that no-one has mentioned wildriders, with regards to underpriced units.

They're about as survivable as heavy cavalry, hit as hard in the first round and much harder in the following rounds, cause fear, have ward saves, MR1, immune to psych, move through woods without penalty, are incredibly fast, and are fast cavalry to boot."

How on earth can you say they are as surviveable as heavy cavalry? They are medium cavalry at beast, having T3, a 5+ armour save and then a 5+ ward save that is negated by magic. Compare that to the true heavy cavalry in the game:
- Bret knights which have a 2+ armour save and 5+ ward save
- Chaos knights which have T4 and 2+ armour save (1+ if chosen)
- Empire knights which have a 1+ armour save

They're a good unit but bear in mind that the immune to psych is often more of a hindrance than a benefit given that they cause fear on the charge anyway, and are extremely vulnerable to missile fire and (especially) magic missiles.

northwoodDreamer
24-01-2007, 02:55
All this talk is making me sick. I'm going through unit by unit (for the ones that are considered broken) and giving counters for the armies that I'm familiar with. I haven't play as many armies as most, so please feel free to contribute counters for the armies that I haven't mentioned or simply stuff I have missed. Being a WE player, this pains me, but I must prove that they are not broken. So here it goes:


Glade Guard vs.
Dwarfs: Organ Gun, Quarrlers (very resilient, usually more over half range, same range), Flame Cannon
Vampire Counts: Anything Ethereal, Black Coach, Zombie Dragon
Dark Elves: Reaper Bolt Throwers, Cold One Chariots, Dark Riders, Black Dragon, Corsairs
High Elves: Repeater Bolt Throwers, Mage + Seer + Lore of Heavens, Dragon
Tomb Kings: Tomb Scorpion, Tomb Swarms
Lizardmen: Skink Scouts, Stegadon


Drayds vs.
Dwarfs: Stone Throwers w/ Runes, Organ Gun, Flame Cannon
Either Undead: Any large block of troops... Dryads will be bound to break or will be held up until something powerful gets there
Dark Elves: Reaper Bolt Throwers, Lord on Black Dragon, COK
High Elves: Repeater Bolt Throwers, Lore of Fire, Silver Helms, Dragon Princes
Lizardmen: Skink Priests, Skinks in general


Wardancers vs.
Dwarfs: Organ Gun, Thunderers, Iron Breakers
Vampire Counts: Black Knights, Black Coach
Tomb Kings: Bone Giant, Chariots
Dark Elves: COK, COC, Witch Elves, Reaper Bolt Throwers, Shooting Dark Riders
High Elves: Silver Helms, Dragon Princes, Ellryian Reavers (sp?), Tironic Chariots (sp?), Repeater Bolt Throwers
Lizardmen: Saurus Calvary, Skinks


Wild Riders vs.
Dwarfs: Organ Gun, Flame Cannon, Thunderers, Quarrelers, Iron Breakers
Vampire Counts: Spirit Hosts, Big units
Tomb Kings: Big units
Dark Elves: Reaper Bolt Throwers, Repeating Crossbowmen, Dark Riders w/ Repeater Crossbows, Witch Elves
High Elves: Repeating Bolt Throwers, Archers
Lizardmen: Skinks, Big Blocks of Saurus Warriors, Terradons


Treeman vs.
Dwarfs: Cannon, Grudge Thrower, Bolt Thrower (preferably w/ rune of burning for all three), Flame Cannon, and if desperate - Organ Gun
Vampire Counts: Big Units, Vampires w/ extra Strength
Tomb Kings: Big Units, Mummies w/ extra Strength, Screaming Skull Catapault
Dark Elves: Reaper Bolt Throwers (single shot), Lord on Black Dragon, Lord on Maticore, charging COC, if desperate anything w/ str 5
High Elves: Repeater Bolt Throwers (single shot), Lord on Dragon, Chariots



I won't even get into Great Eagles because the idea of them being cheesy is just ridiculous. Anyways, for the armies I know enough about, you can see that there is a pattern of what to take when facing WE. Shooting and Iron Breakers are a Dwarf's best friend. Big units will serve the undead well. Both Elves would be wise to have their wonderful bolt throwers, heavy calvary, and a guy on a dragon. Skinks are a good buy for the Lizardmen.

Also, any army can own the Wood Elves with magic. I've never used the staff that allows you to reroll dispell attempts, but even still, a WE player will only get 4-5 dice in a 2000 pt game. Any army facing the WE should have at least two level 2 wizards giving them 6 dice.

The Wood Elves are not a broken army, but that's just my two cents. And sorry for the long post.

feintstar
24-01-2007, 03:45
Sure there are an infinite number of highly effective counters for any of the WE units. Thing is you only ever contact Wood Elf units on their terms, so you rarely actually get the antidote to the right point.

This is especially true when there are 3 roving forests on the table.

Sure, they're fragile, but you very rarely get to attack them. Instead, you just have to soak up the damage they deal you in the places they choose to fight and pray that you have enough left over to do some damage back.

Use the staff of ultimate dispellage plus a dryad with the spite. Then your enemy will have nothing on you in the magic phase, (6 DD rerollable) and you're still having room for more heroes. I throw 3 HE mages against that plus banner of sorcery and a bound item, and bounce off. Same combo vs DE and I've got total decimation of his whole army during the magic phase. So Try targetting those apparrantly fragile Wildriders then. MR1 plus dispells, rerolled, assuming you sucessfully cast in the first place, and they were in a position to be targetted and not in combat.

northwoodDreamer
24-01-2007, 12:12
This is especially true when there are 3 roving forests on the table.

Tell your opponent you would like to play with less forests.


Use the staff of ultimate dispellage plus a dryad with the spite. Then your enemy will have nothing on you in the magic phase, (6 DD rerollable) and you're still having room for more heroes.

Such a combination for WE requires using their lord slot for a Level 3 (or 4) mage and a hero slot for a Branchwraith. The more points a WE player spends on character the less troops they have. Use Heavy Calvary + Fliers/Fast Calvary to take out the mage (they're almost always by themselves) then deal with the rest of the army.

For HE two Great Eagles, 2 RBT's, and say 2 units of Silver Helms (standard stuff for a lot of HE armies) should get the job done. For DE RBT's, Harpies, Dark Riders, and COK should be a lethal combination. Also, anyone on a Dragon should be able to survive all WE bowfire and easily take out a mage...

Admittedly the staff is powerful, but only a lord mage can use it. Looking at these boards, I don't think that all that many of the WE players use it. However, there are ways to take out the staff.

Reinnon
24-01-2007, 12:50
WE are still one of the most competitive armies in WFB

EvC
24-01-2007, 15:05
All this talk is making me sick. I'm going through unit by unit (for the ones that are considered broken) and giving counters for the armies that I'm familiar with. I haven't play as many armies as most, so please feel free to contribute counters for the armies that I haven't mentioned or simply stuff I have missed. Being a WE player, this pains me, but I must prove that they are not broken. So here it goes:


Glade Guard vs.
Dwarfs: Organ Gun, Quarrlers (very resilient, usually more over half range, same range), Flame Cannon
Vampire Counts: Anything Ethereal, Black Coach, Zombie Dragon
Dark Elves: Reaper Bolt Throwers, Cold One Chariots, Dark Riders, Black Dragon, Corsairs
High Elves: Repeater Bolt Throwers, Mage + Seer + Lore of Heavens, Dragon
Tomb Kings: Tomb Scorpion, Tomb Swarms
Lizardmen: Skink Scouts, Stegadon

The guns you list are short-ranged, aren't they? Pretty much everything else you've listed costs a crapload, apart from the Skinks and Tomb Swarms, which are often considered way overpowered. It's not exactly hard for the Wood Elf player to put his Glade Guard in the woods either, making his guys harder to hit and can't be hit by Chariots.



Drayds vs.
Dwarfs: Stone Throwers w/ Runes, Organ Gun, Flame Cannon
Either Undead: Any large block of troops... Dryads will be bound to break or will be held up until something powerful gets there
Dark Elves: Reaper Bolt Throwers, Lord on Black Dragon, COK
High Elves: Repeater Bolt Throwers, Lore of Fire, Silver Helms, Dragon Princes
Lizardmen: Skink Priests, Skinks in general

You REALLY don't get it, do you? They are Skirmishers. This means shooting them is difficult. It means they can outmanoevre large blocks of infantry. You're also suggesting Dragons yet again- if it takes that much to get rid of them, then that says it all!


Wardancers vs.
Dwarfs: Organ Gun, Thunderers, Iron Breakers
Vampire Counts: Black Knights, Black Coach
Tomb Kings: Bone Giant, Chariots
Dark Elves: COK, COC, Witch Elves, Reaper Bolt Throwers, Shooting Dark Riders
High Elves: Silver Helms, Dragon Princes, Ellryian Reavers (sp?), Tironic Chariots (sp?), Repeater Bolt Throwers
Lizardmen: Saurus Calvary, Skinks

Again, suggesting missile fire against Skirmishers is deluded. The alternative? The heaviest, most expensive cavalry there is! Well done.


Wild Riders vs.
Dwarfs: Organ Gun, Flame Cannon, Thunderers, Quarrelers, Iron Breakers
Vampire Counts: Spirit Hosts, Big units
Tomb Kings: Big units
Dark Elves: Reaper Bolt Throwers, Repeating Crossbowmen, Dark Riders w/ Repeater Crossbows, Witch Elves
High Elves: Repeating Bolt Throwers, Archers
Lizardmen: Skinks, Big Blocks of Saurus Warriors, Terradons

A solid line of fire is a good counter to Wild Riders, I agree. I believe their attacks will hurt ethereals, and again, "big units" is not likely. A Wood Elf player who is remotely competent will be able to keep their Wild Riders away from the firing line.


Treeman vs.
Dwarfs: Cannon, Grudge Thrower, Bolt Thrower (preferably w/ rune of burning for all three), Flame Cannon, and if desperate - Organ Gun
Vampire Counts: Big Units, Vampires w/ extra Strength
Tomb Kings: Big Units, Mummies w/ extra Strength, Screaming Skull Catapault
Dark Elves: Reaper Bolt Throwers (single shot), Lord on Black Dragon, Lord on Maticore, charging COC, if desperate anything w/ str 5
High Elves: Repeater Bolt Throwers (single shot), Lord on Dragon, Chariots

i.e. no simple counter. As with most of your suggestions.

Thanks for being helpful, but if your idea for taking down a 100 point unit is to take a Dragon or charge them with your most powerful cavalry, then you are expertly demostrating why Wood Elves are so broken. Imagine what it would be like if it took a Dragon to take down a unit of Mounted Squires!

Jonahmaul
24-01-2007, 15:59
Almost everything he lists is standard in the armies given, how many HE or DE armies you see without RBT? I agree that WE can easily avoid chariots by hiding in forests (which they are pretty good at) and that having a Dragon to deal with a single unit is effective but then he's not saying that you take a Dragon just to deal with a single unit but if you have one in your army then they are effective against many WE units.

There is no reason why shooting skirmishers can't be effective either, sure it's harder but not by so much that you should be deterred from shooting at them at all. What northWood dreamer is demonstrating is that all units in every army have their nemesis & WE are no different.

Reinnon
24-01-2007, 16:13
everything in a WE army is about one thing.... offence.

lets be honest here the WE only have 3 truly resistant units, EG, treekin and the treeman, the rest of the army tends to fall about if it isn't on the attack

shooting against skirmishers is only a -1, and wardancers/dyrads/wild riders have next to little armour.... 5+ ward save is not that amazing let me tell you

TzarNikolai
24-01-2007, 17:35
Glade Guard vs.
...
Dark Elves: Reaper Bolt Throwers, Cold One Chariots, Dark Riders, Black Dragon, Corsairs


Drayds vs.
...
Dark Elves: Reaper Bolt Throwers, Lord on Black Dragon, COK


Wardancers vs.
...
Dark Elves: COK, COC, Witch Elves, Reaper Bolt Throwers, Shooting Dark Riders


Wild Riders vs.
...
Dark Elves: Reaper Bolt Throwers, Repeating Crossbowmen, Dark Riders w/ Repeater Crossbows, Witch Elves


Treeman vs.
...
Dark Elves: Reaper Bolt Throwers (single shot), Lord on Black Dragon, Lord on Maticore, charging COC, if desperate anything w/ str 5

in one game they're responsible for taking out the gladeguard, dryads, wardancers, wild riders and treeman... wow DE are so broken if their bolt throwers can do all of that.

no offence but your ideas haven't been thought through. sure if you line all these counters up against their respective woodelf units on a completely open table then they'll be able to do just as you say. you fail to consider the reality of the rest of the army taking down your warmachines or your wizards or outflanking those same counters with something else. or in some way using their own army to stop you using these counters. and as in many cases your counter units cost so much more that the unit they're trying to get rid of, it can't be all that hard can it?



shooting against skirmishers is only a -1, and wardancers/dyrads/wild riders have next to little armour.... 5+ ward save is not that amazing let me tell you
a -1 to hit can be a huge difference, as can that 5+ ward. maybe you're just unlucky.

northwoodDreamer
24-01-2007, 18:34
My suggestions for counters to WE weren't meant to be 1 on 1 comparisons. No, RBT's can't shoot at every WE unit. And yes skirmishers are -1 to hit. Still WE units are FRAGILE. If you concentrate your BT's on a unit of Dryads, and only have modest luck, the unit should be so small after the second shooting phase that they aren't worth worrying about. Wardancers can be completely destroyed, Skinks have destroyed mine many times. 2 RBT's should be able to wipe out or severely minimalise 3 units of WE in a 6 turn game.

Likewise I did not suggest severely expensive units such as Heavy Calvary and Dragons so that they could take on one unit. A Dragon should be able to destroy any Mage/War Machine hunters a WE player has, destroy a unit of Wardancers in a turn or two, Wild Riders in a turn, Dryads in two turns. Heavy Calvary shouldn't have a problem breaking through a unit of Wardancers or being charged by Wild Riders. And afterwards they should go on to fight other units.

My counters aren't perfect, counters usually aren't. And sure, Wood Elves are highly competitive. But they can be defeated by a smart player. Contrary to popular belief, WE units ARE expensive. They are just usually really tiny which obviously keeps the cost down. However being so small plus lightly armoured and low toughness, usually means it doesn't take much damage to keep them at bay.

Highborn
24-01-2007, 21:03
a -1 to hit can be a huge difference, as can that 5+ ward. maybe you're just unlucky.

You get -1 to hit against:

Scouts: unarmoured
Dryads: T4, 5+ ward
wardancers: unarmoured
Waywatchers: unarmoured

You hit these troops with no modifiers:

Glade Guard: unarmoured
Glade Riders: 6+ save
Eternal Guard: 5+ save
Wild Riders: 5+ save, 5+ ward
Treekin: T5, 4+ save, 5+ ward

Noone's dumb enough to try and shoot a treeman or a dragon with standard missile troops, but you can clearly see that the only units truly resistant against shooting are the Forest Spirits. They are, with the exception of Wild Riders, vulnerable against magic. Wild Riders are about as tricky to deal with as a lance of six Errants, without the support provided by bigger, tougher knights. Bait them, countercharge them. Sure they get +1 attack, but if you hit them on the flank then that won't matter.

feintstar
25-01-2007, 07:00
You can't bait a fast cav unit with the ability to move through woods without penalty. Instead of charging, he marches on the flank and free reforms. Or he switches to the other side of the feild. You can bait knights errant, who have to Ld in order NOT to charge, with the banner, which is standard on KE units, that's redoubled. Against conventional shooting, ie bowfire or repeater Xbows, wildriders are 4+ then 5+ saves, which is the same as a 3+ save - same survivability as medium cavalry. More survivable versus cannon fire and vs single shot bolt throwers, or say S6, even Chaos Knights are 5+, i.e. the same as the 5+ ward. MR 1 stinks when given a reroll dispell, making them MORE survivable versus magic than Chaos Knights, with the staff, more survivable than Khornate Knights. Then there's the fact they can happily hide/run through woods, and are faster than just about everything.

Basically, WE suffer from the same strengths as Craftword Eldar 3rd ed in 40K. Sure, the units can be fragile (but aren't necessarily) but they do craploads of damage, and because they are more manuverable by far then their opponents, they pick their fights. So while you may have a perfect anti (insert WE unit type here) for EVERYTHING in the opponents army, he's still got a better than 50% chance of beating you by scrambling the matches up, such that you're fighting precisely the wrong units in every confrontation.

I know this tactic, I'm a CWE player who won 90% of my games prior to the redux, which brought the eldar in line with the other races.

Jonahmaul
25-01-2007, 08:34
I don't think comparing WE to Eldar is a good idea, I know Eldar are generally thought of as 'space elves' but WFB & 40K are seperate game systems with completely different riles & therefore not comparable. WE are very manoeuvrable but with changes to the marching rules in 7th edition they are much less so. If you move a unit about 7" in front of wild riders then they can't march so moving round to your flanks is going to be hard, leaving them the option of charging or moving back, both of which are generally going to be an advantage to the WE opponent.

EvC
25-01-2007, 12:46
Almost everything he lists is standard in the armies given, how many HE or DE armies you see without RBT? I agree that WE can easily avoid chariots by hiding in forests (which they are pretty good at) and that having a Dragon to deal with a single unit is effective but then he's not saying that you take a Dragon just to deal with a single unit but if you have one in your army then they are effective against many WE units.

Except that as a flier, a Dragon can't land in the Woods. Which is where his army will be hiding if he knows there's a massive monstrosity lurking around waiting to tear into him. It's also not difficult for a Wood Elf Player to simply move his troops out of the charge arc of the Dragon; if you have 18" move and free reform, it doesn't take a rocket scientist. These "counters" are only effective against bad players. And it's not bad players anyone is complaining about!


There is no reason why shooting skirmishers can't be effective either, sure it's harder but not by so much that you should be deterred from shooting at them at all. What northWood dreamer is demonstrating is that all units in every army have their nemesis & WE are no different.

Skirmishers are often give the role of screening other units from missile fire. So that should hint to you that they're probably quote good at that. No other army has a T4 Skirmisher with a 5+ Ward Save, that's for sure.

RBT firing at Dryads, long range, no cover: needs a 5 to hit, should get 2 hits. One of them will probably wound. Then the Wood Elf Player has a 5+ chance of saving the wound. If you do by some miracle cause 25% casualty, there's not even a chance of panicing them.

Basically one Bolt thrower will cause 2/3 of a wound per turn. So two Bolt Throwers, assuming they get to shoot at a unit of Dryads every turn of the entire game, with no-one else getting involved, will probably manage to kill off one unit of 8 Dryads. In the entire game. That's 200 points of the best firepower other Elves can muster dedicated to taking out less than 100 points of troops.

Again I'll say, if this is what you consider an effective counter, then you're the one making the case for the Wood Elves being broken (Or, as I'd prefer to think of it, simply too good).

Jonahmaul
25-01-2007, 13:39
Except that you can't hide an entire army in forests, if you turn up to play an opponent who has a WE army & the board is covered with forests then more fool you for agreeing to play. If you land the Dragon close enough you are going to cause terror in the next turn & they won't be able to move 18" as you will stop them marching. They might still be able to get you of your charge arc but if you've positioned your very expensive dragon so it can only see one thing within it's 20" charge then you deserve to have to waste another turn repositioning it.

Yes, skirmishers are often used as screening units but not really so in a WE army as their skirmishers are expensive. As you have pointed out they are T4 with a 5+ ward, but they excel at combat, meaning you need them to make it to combat, not be shielding your other units, same for wardancers. How often are RBT at long range exactly? Especially considering that Dryad's are combat troops so need to be moving forward. That means they would need a 4+ to hit which means they would hit an average of three times with two or three of these wounding per turn which would cause 12 to 15 wounds in a 6 game, double that to 24 to 30 with two of them. That's a lot of killing for 200 points & that's if they spend the whole game shooting at skirmishing troops.

I'm sure you'll say that the bolt throwers will be taken out by warhawk riders by turn two so they won't get all these shots but then everything here is talking in ideals. RBT aren't the only thing your going to have to deal with Dryads or any other units for that matter, just as every army doesn't have access to RBT.

EvC
25-01-2007, 14:54
Except that you can't hide an entire army in forests, if you turn up to play an opponent who has a WE army & the board is covered with forests then more fool you for agreeing to play. If you land the Dragon close enough you are going to cause terror in the next turn & they won't be able to move 18" as you will stop them marching. They might still be able to get you of your charge arc but if you've positioned your very expensive dragon so it can only see one thing within it's 20" charge then you deserve to have to waste another turn repositioning it.

IF unit = close enough to take a terror test
THEN unit gets out of charge arc easily
IF unit = not close enough to take a terror test
THEN unit is more than likely free to march and easily get out of the way of the Dragon

Either way, any Wood Elf cavalry unit will be able to get out of the way. That leaves units of Treekin, Wardancers, Dryads, Eternal Guard and Glade Guard (Drop the notion that you'll be able to charge a lone spellcaster. We're not talking about playing a 3 year-old here). As long as all those units stay close to the woods - and it's not unreasonable to expect there to be woods within 8" or so of most Wood Elf units if they're on the defensive - they'll be able to get out the way. The mist you can hope for is that the Wood Elf player will sacrifice one of his own cheaper units to allow you to charge. Then it'll be another two turns before the Dragon can get into combat, and all the while the Dragon could be peppered with S4/ Killing Blow arrows or the multitude of magical abilities that the Wood Elves have.

I had one game, where, as Vampires, my Wood Elf opponent plonked his Dragon in front of almost my entire army on turn one. This gave him the choice of charging several units of Infantry and my Heavy Cavalry. None of my units were able to get out the way, and in fact I had to move my General away and sacrifice one of my most expensive units because a charge on my Lord would have killed him. If I were to pull this stunt with a Dragon against a Wood Elf player, he would simply say, "See you later".


Yes, skirmishers are often used as screening units but not really so in a WE army as their skirmishers are expensive.

The point is that while skirmishers can obviously be killed by missile fire, regular skirmishers are often used in this role, and Dryads are even better at it, although they are a bit costlier. Considering you don't have to worry about them fleeing back through your units, it's a fair price.


As you have pointed out they are T4 with a 5+ ward, but they excel at combat, meaning you need them to make it to combat, not be shielding your other units, same for wardancers. How often are RBT at long range exactly? Especially considering that Dryad's are combat troops so need to be moving forward. That means they would need a 4+ to hit which means they would hit an average of three times with two or three of these wounding per turn which would cause 12 to 15 wounds in a 6 game, double that to 24 to 30 with two of them. That's a lot of killing for 200 points & that's if they spend the whole game shooting at skirmishing troops.

The assumption that the Bolt Throwers are long range is a fair one, as a Wood Elf player is usually happy to let the enemy wander into charge range for a couple of turns while they move around to line up the best charges rather than storm forwards across open terrain. I'm not even considering that the Dryads might be in a forest or out of sight, which they well could be. Short range shots against Dryads would (on average) hit three and kill one, not two to three. Even if they spend the entire game shooting the Dryads at short range that's an average of 12 wounds with both of the bolt throwers combined, not the 30 that you claim!

I'm being extremely fair in considering the situation, whilst you're looking at the best case scenario for the guy playing against the Wood Elves and doing very bad maths to prove a point. Try some objectivity, please. Not that I know if I'm being objective or not, I just know I've lost to Wood Elves 2/3 of the times I've played them, and was barely able to touch the opposing army, let alone take advantage of any weaknesses.


I'm sure you'll say that the bolt throwers will be taken out by warhawk riders by turn two so they won't get all these shots but then everything here is talking in ideals. RBT aren't the only thing your going to have to deal with Dryads or any other units for that matter, just as every army doesn't have access to RBT.

I'm simply pointing out the effectiveness of Bolt Throwers against Dryads- a full barrage may kill one of them in open terrain at short range; the statement about the entire game is just there to put it into perspective- it'd certainly be a good day for the Wood Elf player if the Bolt Throwers spent all game shooting at Dryads!

So in your ideal situation one of the best counters to Dryads is actually utter rubbish.

Of course in fact the best counter to Dryads is simply a magic missile (Or Salamanders), which has no "to hit" roll, but even then, getting a Wizard into the right place for that is difficult, as Wood Elves own the movement phase. Are you getting the point yet?

There are counters to Wood Elf units, but not as simply as nearly every other unit in the game has. Wood Elves are nearly all advantage, advantage, advantage, and if there is a possible counter, then there's always some Wood Elf ability that makes that counter a lot lesser than with other armies; Magic Resistance; Immune to Psychology; Ward Saves; Special rules for shooting; extra terrain that benefits the Wood Elves etc. etc. etc. Maybe you could bait them and get a Flank Attack... but the Wood Elves are the ones who are moving faster, quicker than all your troops, wherever they like. If anyone's going to get a flank charge, it's going to be them, not their opponent.

Jonahmaul
25-01-2007, 16:37
So basically your bitter because you've lost to WE a lot? And I never said that RBT were the best counter to Dryad, just that shooting at skirmishers is a valid option. I personally wouldn't shoot them with RBT as I would want them to be shooting Wild Riders/Glade Riders/Glade Guard etc. which they are much more effective against. I would hit Dryad's either with a large ranked unit or with a unit of heavy cavalry if I had them or as you have said magic missile or salamanders (useful as I play Lizardmen!).

Getting mages into line of sight of a unit isn't that hard, especially as Dryad's are a combat unit so need to be moving forward. If they are spending their time avoiding you then you've done your job & can concentrate on the units which are going to do you damage. Yes, WE are very good in the movement phase but they can't teleport wherever they want & you always have a chance to react to their movement.

If dragon is 7" away then it is close enough to cause a terror test. Yes, faster units will be able to get out of charge arc but most of the army is M5 which isn't going to be enough to move the whole unit out of the charge arc.

WE can be an infuriating army to play but I believe they are a balanced force. As you point out, they can often hit you on their terms & if they do so they're effective but if you can counter this, which a compotent general should be able to do at least some of the time, then they are very easy to beat due to units usually being very weak & low in numbers.

Kahadras
25-01-2007, 20:38
So basically your bitter because you've lost to WE a lot?

Why does it always come down to being bitter? I really don't want to get involved in the debate but when anybody starts a discussion about whether something is too good or not; people who disagree with the idea that it's too good seem to fall back on this every time.

Kahadras

feintstar
25-01-2007, 23:54
If you try to stop a unit of skirmishers from marching, you are by definition putting yourself in a place where you would most likely be charged, and almost certainly be putting yourself in a place where you're going to be shot at. Some march blockers are expendable, but not that many, and certainly not in every army. Supposing you flee,then your march blocker is going to wind up in no-mans land, and its certainly going to get shot at heavily.

The Analogy to Eldar is not unfair, in my opinion. I recognise that the game systems are markedly dissimilar, but the way in which they play is what is being discussed.

The Eldar had a bunch of specialised units that each were the perfect counter to a certain other set of units - i.e. Fire Dragons vs Tanks, Warp Spiders versus light vehicles, Banshees versus Armoured units, etc. All relatively fragile and expensive, but with extra manuverability afforded by fast skimmer transports, such that the Eldar player roughly dictated the play.

Now the contrast with WE in fantasy is EVEN MORE marked, because the movement rules for ALL OTHER races in Fantasy are so much more restrictive (1 exception - the flying circus - Anyone claiming that there isn't a corrollary here?). Wheeling, march blocking, half distance on DT, etc., the bread and butter of fantasy movement that makes redeploying so difficult for the majority of armies - things that the Wood Elves roundly ignore in the vast majority of cases. Skirmishers, ignoring forests, free reforms, single model units with 360 charge arcs, movement that will be at least 2 to 4 inches faster than their competitors in almost every circumstance, the ability to surf the woods during the magic phase. That makes the contrast in the movement phase oh so much grander than in 40K, where the opponent at least could match your groundspeed, and could move the same distance for disembarking troops from their transports.

The problem with Eldar was that they could knock out all the counters in the first couple of terms - blow away the tanks first using superior AP weapons and manuverability, then knock out the enemy elites using the same stuff, then butcher the rest of the force with your elite but outnumbered army.

WE do exactly the same thing. Your opponent cannot counter because he can't match movement, even if he does have the right units, and thus the superior offensive capabilities of the WE make the rest a cakewalk.

Oh well, I'll just collect a flying circus. That way I can out WE the WEs.

EvC
26-01-2007, 02:42
So basically your bitter because you've lost to WE a lot?

What an inane response. Of course (excepting the greatest rules analysts out there) it would take someone who has lost to Wood Elves many times, where they are usually victorious to note that the Wood Elf list has significant advantages over other lists. In fact I edited my post because I mentioned objectivity and though this was a relevent qualifier to what I'm saying- but it's not the be-all and end-all of what I'm saying.

If i was truly bitter I'd be complaining that a tooled-up Vampire Count (with a Necromancer and two horses as back-up) is unable to charge and break a unit of 10 Glade Guard in three turns, but I'm objective enough to recognise that this was my bad luck in that game ;)


And I never said that RBT were the best counter to Dryad, just that shooting at skirmishers is a valid option.

In that case, when I'm telling someone who HAS claimed that RBT are a great counter to Dryads that he's utterly wrong and back it up with reasoned arguments, don't reply to me saying that they are judged in the best anti-Wood Elf situation and faulty maths! You'll save both of us a lot of time that way.


I personally wouldn't shoot them with RBT as I would want them to be shooting Wild Riders/Glade Riders/Glade Guard etc. which they are much more effective against. I would hit Dryad's either with a large ranked unit or with a unit of heavy cavalry if I had them or as you have said magic missile or salamanders (useful as I play Lizardmen!).

Excellent, I now have confidence that you know what you're talking about ;)


Getting mages into line of sight of a unit isn't that hard, especially as Dryad's are a combat unit so need to be moving forward. If they are spending their time avoiding you then you've done your job & can concentrate on the units which are going to do you damage. Yes, WE are very good in the movement phase but they can't teleport wherever they want & you always have a chance to react to their movement.

Agreed. But a vagely smart Wood Elf player will save his dispel dice for that magic missile, and if you try it against Wardancers, then he gets a dispel dice for free. Therein lies the overpowering nature of the Wood Elves: they even get protection against the once most sensible counter to some of their units!


If dragon is 7" away then it is close enough to cause a terror test.

Oh come on, you must know from my IF/ THEN logical that I was allowing for the rare circumstances of a unit being between 6" and 8" away from a Dragon. They could probably still get out of charge arc even at 8" distance- so let's please not debate semantics here!


WE can be an infuriating army to play but I believe they are a balanced force. As you point out, they can often hit you on their terms & if they do so they're effective but if you can counter this, which a compotent general should be able to do at least some of the time, then they are very easy to beat due to units usually being very weak & low in numbers.

That would be nice. But I'm sure if I let you, as a seasoned Wood Elf player make up a force of High Elves, Vampires of Chaos designed specifically to counter Wood Elves, while I put togother an army to fight all-comers, I'd still win.

Jonahmaul
26-01-2007, 15:46
I'm not a seasoned WE player, I've never even collected a WE army (although I am thinking of starting one), I'm just of the opinion that they are not as unbalanced as a lot of people think they are. This is obviously just my opinion & others are entitled to theirs which I respect but I've never really had much of a problem against them, and this isn't because I'm a great general because I'm not, I lose far more games than I win, I just don't think they are as bad as people are making out (although I've never come against any really cheesy army lists so this opinion may well be changed if i went to a tournemant & played against WE for example).

EvC
26-01-2007, 16:53
Okay, sorry if it seems like I've been giving you a hard time :) Most of what I say is because at the last tournament I went to three out of my four opponents were Wood Elves, the last two being very similar lists (Apart from a Dragon!).

Phoenix_331
26-01-2007, 17:33
I just hate to see that so many players have a problem with the WE. Yes, it is true that they have some very good units and annoying tactics and so, but even the WE have weaknesses: they are expensive, are unarmoured, most of them have toughness 3 and they lack ranks. Every army has its strenghts and weaknesses and a good general should be able to make use of this. And about the cheesy lists: every army can make them and you're just silly if you agree playing against them in tournaments but in a in a friendly game you could also refuse to play, but if you agree and you win, the sweeter the victory! And if you don't agree with me and are still angry about the WE being 'cheesy', then go to your mom and cry

I don't want to offend anyone, but it just hurts my eyes seeing all those people argueing about cheesy army's, just stop crying about it and go play a game and have fun, even if you lose, because that's where the game is about

Jonahmaul
26-01-2007, 18:53
Okay, sorry if it seems like I've been giving you a hard time :) Most of what I say is because at the last tournament I went to three out of my four opponents were Wood Elves, the last two being very similar lists (Apart from a Dragon!).

I can see how that would be annoying. That's why I generally tend to stay away from tournaments, I prefer playing fun games & often end up doing stupid things cuz I think it's what the models would do if they were 'real'! Maybe that's why I lose so often!

EvC
26-01-2007, 19:12
Hmm, me too. I used to lose nearly every game I'd play, as I'd be doing everything because it's fun, e.g. if there was a charge I could make that wasn't entirely suicidal, I'd always go for it. But now I play to win while enjoying myself and to try and ensure my opponent also has a good game, for the best of both worlds.

I know what it's like to lose, and I usually have fun in a game I lose- but not so much with Wood Elves. I guess that's the real complaint: it's not as much fun to play against Wood Elves (After all, they're the ones doing most of the neat moves and charges, picking the combats that favour them the most- as they must do, since if their opponent gets to strike back they won't survive long very often), and when you lose you feel it's not because your opponent was better or had better dice, but simply because the army let him do whatever he liked while stifling you.

Lord_Byron
27-01-2007, 15:14
Some broken things in the wood elf list.

Wand of Wytch Elm. For just over 50 points a wood elf archmage can reroll all failed dispel rolls, effectively shutting down the magic of all but the most extreme mage-hammer armies.

Treesinging. Can be cast multiple times on the same wood in the same turn, allowing for a mage-hammer wood elf army to move a piece of stationary terrain forty two inches in one turn. Ever wonder what the fastest single thing in all of warhammer fantasy battle is? A wood.

Forest spirits are not really broken, as there are ways to counter them, but they are pretty close due to being unusually cheap for the powerful abilities and insane stats they possess. This goes for all three types.

A savvy wood elf general can combine all of the above elements with their very good archery to negate every single weakness the developers used to balance their strengths.

For example.

Forest spirits are vulnerable to magic, but good luck getting a spell past the wand of wytch elm.

Forest spirits cannot flee as a charge reaction, but that can be countered by the army's overall mobility and archery.

Wood elves have almost no static combat resolution, but that can be countered by obstructing enemy units with treesinging, and/or stubborn or evasive stranglerooting treemen.

They are not broken in the sense that a newbie can't just slap together any old list and beat just about any other army they face, but a wisely constructed and played wood elf list can *consistently* pull massacres against any list while very rarely losing with any more than a draw.

Reinnon
27-01-2007, 15:32
the wand of wych elm requires a spellweaver though, and not everyone takes one

plus, many lists with a spellweaver go for 3 dispel scrolls and the Ranu stone

Von Wibble
27-01-2007, 20:59
If you think the wand of wych elm is broken then try the staff of change. It does the same thing and lets you reroll a few power dice (not loads so as not to exhaust) on top of that so miscasts and failing to cast spells don't happen.

Tree singing - really easy to counter. Just put a unit of cheap skirmishers/cheap troops hugging teh wood in the direction you don't want it to go. It can't move, job done. And 42' assumes a lot of absurd rolling and not a single dispel.....not happening. Against wood elves one good way to worry them is to make sure you have over 10 power dice. 6 reroll dispel dice won't defend against that. Magic missiles aren' what scare me btw - unseen lurker and vanhels are much much nastier.

Dryads - mine don't ever win through unless supported as enemy troops with +5CR and a decent save (4+ saves are far too cheap and easy to get hold of) will beat them easily. If supported then you are looking at paying more than the unit you killed! 25 clanrats with shields and command or 25 goblins with sheilds for example will not die to dryads at all.

EVC - your point about the game not being fun is a good one, but this argument applies far more to brets and dwarfs than wood elves. Against Brets you have to either flee from his killer charge or watch him flee from yours until one unit gets into position where it can't validly flee and is destroyed. Against Dwarfs you're talking about an army that ignores the 2 most tactical phases of the game (shooting and combnat are just dice rolling at the end of the day).

The problem is that Wood Elves are not a tournament force - you have to know you are facing them to get a good game as a lot of the best things to use tend to be fast and manouvrable themselves, or cheap and numerous with good armour. Being a guerilla force means the tactics on both sides are different and so army conposition needs to be. Therefore in a friendly they are fine and balanced.

Gn0b
28-01-2007, 22:53
ooooh yes... they can cheese... fight in three ranks (Gladegaurd), previously stated cheap uber units, and most of all their magic choices. If you wanted to make a versitile (not sure it would be cheesy) army, then take a unit of 15 glade gaurd (spears), a treekin(6Wounds!), a unit of dryads, two units of ten glade gaurd (bows), two spellsingers (1 lore of life, and 1 with the WE spell list *forgot the name*) and finish off with the most powerful Noble (on an elven steed) that you could afford (2000 pt).

If this doesn't fit into a 2000 pt army, then please correct me.

(cheesy enough for you?)

Reinnon
29-01-2007, 02:13
there is no fight in 3 ranks and spellsingers can't take lore of life

northwoodDreamer
29-01-2007, 03:42
ooooh yes... they can cheese... fight in three ranks (Gladegaurd),

Nope, they fight in two ranks, just the first rank has two hand weapons. They are no more cheesier than HE Spearmen and many Saurus Warriors w/ spears.


and most of all their magic choices.
What magic choices? Heroes can only use the lore of Athel Loren. A Mage Lord can use the Lore of Life and Beasts I believe. That's cheesy?



If you wanted to make a versitile (not sure it would be cheesy) army, then take a unit of 15 glade gaurd (spears), a treekin(6Wounds!), a unit of dryads, two units of ten glade gaurd (bows), two spellsingers (1 lore of life, and 1 with the WE spell list *forgot the name*) and finish off with the most powerful Noble (on an elven steed) that you could afford (2000 pt).


What does this prove? There are plenty of armies capable of fielding a versatile 2000 pt force. Dark Elves, High Elves, Lizardmen, Tomb Kings, Empire, Orcs & Goblins to name a few. Creating a versatile army is exactly the opposite of cheesy, cheesy is when you max out in one or two areas.

Also, it's a Treeman not a Treekin. Treekin have 3 wounds. As previously said a Spellsinger can not take the Lore of Life. And even the most powerful Noble dies relatively easy... T3 hero cheesy? Come on.

Makarion
29-01-2007, 08:05
Isn't the Lore of Life the one I never take because it's so much worse than all the others (I'm an Empire player)? Only Shadow comes close in the 'weak magic' listings...

Alathir
29-01-2007, 08:48
Anyone who thinks Treemen are cheesy and overpowered should try taking them against Screaming Skull catapults...

magical flaming attacks. enough said.

TzarNikolai
29-01-2007, 10:16
Nope, they fight in two ranks, just the first rank has two hand weapons. They are no more cheesier than HE Spearmen and many Saurus Warriors w/ spears.
not that i am calling them cheesy but that statement is just completely wrong.

eternal guard can be so much better than either. sure saurus have as many attacks but they cost so much more. and while they have ld8 coldblooded eternal guard go up to ld10 with a lord which they will have if they want to take advantage of being core and stubborn (not sure about the core actually) not to mention being cheaper and having better movement... and stubborn.
as for elves, they're just badly overcosted. similar number of attacks but no stubborn, they won't get as many attacks if flanked or rear charged and they're not as likely to have a hitty character in.

lets not forget that eternal guard are an excellent ranked unit in an army mostly lacking ranks and resilience, so fill a role much better in their respective army than either saurus or spearmen.

again. i reserve judgement on the eternal guard or the discussion on woodelf brokenness (quite an interesting topic actually).

Highborn
29-01-2007, 11:06
Saurus with spears also get S4, T4.

You're right about core, but eternal guard are Ld9 Stubborn. As far as I can recall, Ld10 doesn't get passed on if the Eternal Guard are using their Stubborn ability. They're not hugely cheaper either, and I'd attribute that more to the fact that Saurus are known to be an overcosted unit. Cold Blooded, by comparison, is more useful outside of combat - For fear, terror, panic, etc, I'd take Cold Blooded 8 over Stubborn 9 anyday.


High Elf spears are the same - same points, lower WS. They won't get as many attacks if flanked or rear charged, but they'll have more attacks if charged to the front.

The fact that they're less likely to have a hitty character is really grasping at straws, and I think you would recognise that.


lets not forget that eternal guard are an excellent ranked unit in an army mostly lacking ranks and resilience, so fill a role much better in their respective army than either saurus or spearmen.

... and the money shot. Yes, Eternal Guard are what the Wood Elf army needs. I'd pay the points for an "overcosted" Saurus equivalent over the "undercosted" Eternal Guard in the Wood Elf army, because the Wood Elves need a solid ranked unit.


Now, to prove a point about Cold Blooded vs Stubborn, and to try out the dice menu that I've never noticed before and see if it does what I think it does ...


[dice6]
[dice7]

EvC
29-01-2007, 12:05
Do Eternal Guards get to make use of both spears in the second rank and additional hand weapon attacks in the front rank at the same time (Effectively giving them the rule fight in three ranks, without the need for a third rank!)?

TzarNikolai
29-01-2007, 13:44
You're right about core, but eternal guard are Ld9 Stubborn. As far as I can recall, Ld10 doesn't get passed on if the Eternal Guard are using their Stubborn ability. They're not hugely cheaper either, and I'd attribute that more to the fact that Saurus are known to be an overcosted unit. Cold Blooded, by comparison, is more useful outside of combat - For fear, terror, panic, etc, I'd take Cold Blooded 8 over Stubborn 9 anyday.

i know ld 10 doesn't get passed down to stubborn. didn't say that it does that. or whether saurus were overcosted or not, i was just comparing the two to refute the statement i quoted.

as for coldblooded, what happens if that big unit gets flanked and loses combat by something big. suddenly you're trying to roll less than 4 on 3 dice or less than 9 on 2 dice. i think the better performance in combat outweighs panic and such, especially considering both have decently high ld anyway, so aren't very likely to run


The fact that they're less likely to have a hitty character is really grasping at straws, and I think you would recognise that.
i respectfully disagree. a character will generate maybe those extra 2 combat res by himself. and an eternal guard unit is quite likely to have a lord in, whereas some spearmen aren't.
yeah, more expensive, could buy another spearelf unit for that etc. i admit its not really a major point, just something minor to consider.
i don't think i need to grasp at straws. does anyone here not agree that eternal guard are better than both saurus and spearelves?

ps. i'm not sure what your point with the dice was. what dice menu?


Do Eternal Guards get to make use of both spears in the second rank and additional hand weapon attacks in the front rank at the same time (Effectively giving them the rule fight in three ranks, without the need for a third rank!)?
yeah i think thats how it works.

feintstar
30-01-2007, 01:14
HE spears really are no comparison to Eternal guard. Spearmen are overcosted, less manuverable with Woods, no Ld Special rule under any circumstances save being lead by a Lion Guarded character who has forfeited most of his magic items allowance, thus making him an exceptionally mediocre elf.

That means that in order for the Spears to fulfill a similar role to the Eternal guard, i.e. a ranked unit that can hold charges and dish out craploads of attacks in the following rounds, they have to forfeit the usefulness of a character, and (moderately) to be a points sink in the process. Spears get swept aside by most determined charges. Eternal guard will not. Period.

Spears tend to Rank deeper, d.t their special rule, which means that Eternals can rank wider for points, giving them even more attacks than the same HE unit, and furthermore, they fight at the same combat effectiveness for longer when taking casualties.

Add in the movement and the treesurfing, and we shouldn't even be having this discussion. White Lions pay for that extra (relatively useless in an HE list) skill. WE just get it as an, oh, yeah, everyone gets that one, no fuss... Oh, and you can treesurf too, forgot to mention...

I don't know much about Saurus, but I do know that they're slower, and that the Cold Blooded rule gets a lot harder a lot faster when faced with negative mods to their Ld. i.e. faced with a Combat res of neg 4, having just been charged by a Bretonian lance, they WILL break. neg 3, and you're not sure, but you're still in trouble. So it only really helps a lot at neg 2 or better.

Compare that to Stubborn Ld 9.

Highborn
30-01-2007, 03:05
TzarNikolai
Eternal Guard are good... but primarily in context of a Wood Elf army.

I'm not saying the character won't do anything. I'm just saying that adding the points for a character into the discussion really makes no sense to me - if you're going to compare, then for arguments sake let's put a character with the spearelves as well ... otherwise it's not a fair discussion.

The dice menu ... don't know. There's a button underneath the quick reply box that lets you roll dice and I wanted to play with it. That's all :D

EvC
I'd prefer fight in three ranks, because when charged, your first rank will die and you will only get one attack per frontage rather than two per front. I think the chances of getting charged are more likely than the chances of anyone fielding only 2 ranks of either High Elves or Eternal Guard. That said, the EG's other special rules make up the difference, and then some.

feintstar
Eternal Guard are stubborn only with the addition of a character as well. With losing 2 attacks per front per casualty, as opposed to 1 attack for HE spears, the EG's only advantage is one point of WS.

Your 7-wide unit of EG is 5.5" wide. The maximum size of a WE free wood is 6". It's not that precise a unit to treesurf - there's much better candidates.

EG are also the ONLY mainline WE combat unit that can panic. If you can cause panic to a WE force, you do it to the Eternal Guard.



For the record, I'm not saying they're not great. I field a 21-strong unit either 7x3 or 5x4 every chance I get. I'm just saying they're not as overpowered as people claim they are.

mightygnoblar
30-01-2007, 17:19
i wood not say the eternal guard are overcosted, just that like most wood elf units they are brilliant at what they do, but this is limited to a small area, and there are many situations they will not preform