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View Full Version : Dark Elves vs. Beasts of Chaos...how are we supposed to win?



The SkaerKrow
19-01-2007, 11:18
The best player in our Warhammer group runs an extremely hard Beasts of Chaos list. Centered around one large Beast Herd, he also fields another large Herd for ambushing, a smaller Herd for ambushing, a Bestigor unit, a Nurgle Minotaur unit, a Dragon Ogre unit, a Centigor unit, a Fury unit, a Nurgling Swarm, a Great Shaman, a normal Shaman, a Gor Hero and a Battle Standard Bearer with the Banner that gives the whole unit Poison Attacks.

Against this army I have been unable to cause any meaningful damage with my Dark Elves. His Ambush units completely destroy all of my battle plans (and my Bolt Throwers), and everything that's not ambushing mops up the tattered remains of my Druchii. I've played his Beasts four times, each time the result has been exactly the same. At this point I'm convinced that Dark Elves cannot defeat Beasts of Chaos. I'd very much like someone to explain to me how that previous statement is untrue, and how I might be able to counter Beasts of Chaos, because until I get some new insights I'm not going to bother playing against the guy again (it takes longer to set the game up than it does to play it).

Commissar Vaughn
19-01-2007, 11:56
not sure where to begin with this...what do you have in your army?
Ive always found Druchii to be an incredibly effective fighting force, small, and at first glance quite weak, but very fast and manouverable and hard hitting. Id dump the BTs simply cos you'll struggle to hit skirmishers anyway and their static targets that give away vps to ambushers. Use your speed to deal with the main force quickly and then turn on the ambushers.Id forget using to many crossbowmen to...get plenty of corsairs and maybe witchelves, with a small unit of elites of your choice to help aginst his bigger stuff.
An assassin perhaps to sort out his wizards, and a few sorcerers of your own naturally, a wizard lord suitably tooled up should give you an edge. Dark riders or harpies to get behind and rear charge anything that proves hard to budge, though youve got the reach with your infantry to get the charge and bowl him over very quickly. And cold one knights should be deadly as hell here.
As your units are much faster you should have no problem(or not as much of one!) ganging up on each of his then coming back for the others, just destroy his best units first.
Basically get very very offensive! Hope that helps.

Glorfindel
19-01-2007, 12:27
Indeed like he said, RPB are sitting ducks against large skirmishing forces. i would only field Rxb if you equip them with shields and full command. I too think witch elves and cold one knight are the answer.
Witch elves with many poisend attack are really dangerous too beast, especially high toughness low armour units, which is pratically the whole beastman army.
Cold one knights also have high strength attacks with a nice movement, against non static cr recieving herds this is very painful if you get to charge (you actually gotta be quite unlucky to loose a combat this way).
Executioners might also be good if you get to charge.
An assassin is indeed also a very handy thing, whether you put one in a unit or let him scout either way, you will probably get to charge due to the hidden rule or his m6 movement and an assassin with extra hand weapon, manbane and the rune of khaine for an extra attack makes him a perfect killer of characters and minotaurs! Even herd units will have it very hard against him as scouting units have no static cr. Make sure your army stick close together aswel, the only way skirmishers can do a lot of damage to a normal unit is gang banging it with as many possible unit to get as much possible kills for combat resolution.
Instead of bot throwers as rare slot I'd go for a war hydra. A war hydra is a m6 manoevrable high thoughness killing monster with strong attacks in close combat and a nice additional breath attack. If you take him, do make sure he doesn't face the units with poisond attacks :)

- Human
19-01-2007, 13:58
Some good replies there. Use your cold one knights and chariots for the fear-causing ability, and witch elves. They will simply shred his units to nothing. Harpies can be used to good effect to march-block his units.

Yeah, ditch the reapers. Not many good targets among the beastmen for them... But if you do take them, only fire at dragon ogres, minotaurs or bestigors - the rest is somewhat of a waste.

Since he has no shooting, a highborn on manticore will wreak havoc (don't go near the poison though) among his lines... And a dragon would be even better at this.

I suggest advancing on him quickly, trying to leave the ambushers behind while you have a better chance against the main force. Good luck!

Chicago Slim
19-01-2007, 17:03
Remember that Beasts don't have much in the way of Leadership: his general will be a 7, most of his units will be 7s, and if you kill the unit champions of his Beast Herds, the unit will be a 6.

So, don't give up on the RBTs just yet: remember that his Ambushers can't charge on the turn they arrive, so you can get at least 2 turns of shooting (3 if you went first) before he can possibly charge them.
On the turn that he Ambushes, you (a) shoot him full of holes when he arrives on the table, with RBTs and other shooting (25% causes a panic test, on a 7!), then (b) hit him with spellpower in the magic phase before (25% causes a panic test, on a 7!) (c) make him deal with your skirmishers, who moved to screen the war machines after he appeared on the table.
In this scenario, if he takes the bait and does charge your skirmishers, focus as many attacks as you can on the unit champion: if you can drop him (WS4, T4, 1 W, 5+ armor at best), then the unit's Leadership drops to a 6 (unless the General is nearby, which he probably isn't). Then, you get another round of shooting and magic to do it all over again (as long as you don't let him pursue/overrun into the war machines: see below).

Note, too, the when skirmishing beast herds charge skirmishers, you set up the recipient unit to their FULL WIDTH, in a line perpendicular to the direction of the charge (as measured by the direction connecting the two closest models from each unit); the beast herd then sets up, a bit wider than that (to maximize frontage). So, if you have 10 skirmishers, that's 200 mm, which means he HAS to go 10 wide as well, which means he'll need a rather big herd in order to get any rank bonus, and a VERY big herd to get more than 1 point for ranks. And, if you're careful about the positioning of your nearest models, you can draw his pursuit/overrun into a rather inconvenient direction, for him.

Also, use Cold Ones, and anything else that causes Fear: he's testing against 7s! The more Leadership tests you can force on him, the better, as he's... uncomfortably likely to fail each one (41.7% chance of failure on each). This can be used for a NASTY cascade effect, if you can force his units to flee through each other.


So, in addition to countering his Ambush with your cavalry (including your fast cavalry), use his low Leadership against him. Given your history, it'll probably take him by surprise, when you suddenly panic half his army off the table on turn 3 (oh, yeah, enjoy watching him fail his rally checks, too! "I'll test off the General's... oh.")

The SkaerKrow
19-01-2007, 20:33
Most Druchii players will tell you that Assassins are the biggest waste of points in the Dark Elf army book, and I'm more than inclined to agree with them.

Normally I would exploit my opponent's low Leadership, but he's covered his Fear susceptability by running Fear-causing Nurgle characters in his Herds, or giving them the Mark of Chaos Undivided to allow them to re-roll psychology tests. Moreover, two of his three Beast Herds are massive (20+ models), and are extremely hard to Panic without directing all of my fire against them. If I do this, his Centigors, Furies, Dragon Ogres and Minotaurs overwhelm my firing positions because they get in uncontested.

I've tried using Witch Elves in the past against his army, they inflicted two casualties, took eight, and were run into the ground straight away. I understand that in theory they should be good against Beasts, but their performance on the table has yet to equal their reputation. The only ranked unit that I've had perform well against him are Black Guard, and that's only because their Stubborn rule let them hang around after an abysmal first round of combat against Dragon Ogres.

I've had some luck using Dark Riders against his army, but Cold One Knights don't return their investment in points. They'll either go Stupid at the worst possible moment, or suffer Limp-Lance Syndrome and get butchered by Gors. If his army was susceptible to Fear I'd consider them, but as it is their prospects don't seem too great.

I'll keep the Manticore idea in mind, if only because it gives me mobility, hitting power, and prevents him from properly ranking up against its 50mm base. That said, I'm still convinced that a Dark Elf "All-Comers" list can do sweet FA against a Beasts of Chaos army.

lois_griffin-must_die
19-01-2007, 22:16
A conversation I had with a freind:

No real conversions, but 5 Terror causers at 2250.
3 of which fly.
:I ABSOLUTELY dominated a tournament with them.
Final round was me versus BoC - HEAVY Ambush.
:Whole army was Beast Herds and Warhounds...and I think a Spawn.
1 Beastlord, 3 Shamans.
Something like 17 Ambushing units.
Blitzed forward, prompted Terror Test on Beast Lord.
Fails, flees.:
Fleeing general = no ambush.
Rallies.
Double charge with Highborn on Manticore and Beastmaster on Manticore.
Break the unit. Run it down.
No ambush ever comes.
2 Shamans were in the ambushing force....as well as most of the Herds.
Everything left was pretty much Warhounds. Fear and Terror saw them away.
End of the game. 2250 in kills. 100 for dead general. 400 for Table quarters.
2750 to 0. Massacre.

- Human
19-01-2007, 23:26
I wouldn't give up on witch elves just because of a lackluster turn or two - even the best units suffer from that. If you do the math, the average performance should be very encouraging. I'd do it for you but I'm currently at work. ;)

Chicago Slim
20-01-2007, 00:09
Ah, good point about the negation of Fear by a single Fear-causing (Nurgle-marked) character-- I had to look that one up to convince myself that it was legit (BRB 78, 2nd column).

You might consider character-hunting tactics, though I note that (RAW) a Fear-causing character still appears to allow the unit to ignore Fear even if he's in the back ranks (BRB 78, "...so long as he is with them." and 73, "...the unit cannot use his Leadership value for tests.")

So, forget about the Fear. Go for the 25% casualty tests. Even if his characters are marked Undivided, he's looking at a 24% chance of blowing it, each and every time. Won't take too many of those to start things rolling downhill (and as noted by others, if you panic his general, then he loses his ambushers altogether.)

The SkaerKrow
20-01-2007, 04:25
I wouldn't give up on witch elves just because of a lackluster turn or two - even the best units suffer from that. If you do the math, the average performance should be very encouraging. I'd do it for you but I'm currently at work. ;)

Actually, I don't take Witch Elves because they die in a stiff wind. My group frowns on "tailor making" lists to fight against certain opponents, so we're expected to use all-comers lists against everyone. Since there's still quite a few Wood Elf players in our group, I've learned that the best place for Witch Elves is safe in my miniatures case, far away from the battlefield (or more accurately, far away from Glade Guard on hills).

The army that I took for our "playoffs" included two Nobles on Chariots, a High Sorceress, a normal Sorceress, two blocks of 20 Warriors, two blocks of 12 Corsairs, two blocks of 6 Dark Riders, one unit of 6 Shades and four Reaper Bolt Throwers. The list completely tore up Empire and Wood Elves (and has been by far my most successful Dark Elf list), but it didn't have a fighting chance against his tricked-out Beasts of Chaos.

I do appreciate everyone's suggestions, insights and comments, regardless of how skeptical that I may seem. My most recent loss just has me extremely demoralized about my Dark Elves.

Venkh
21-01-2007, 22:39
The army that I took for our "playoffs" included two Nobles on Chariots, a High Sorceress, a normal Sorceress, two blocks of 20 Warriors, two blocks of 12 Corsairs, two blocks of 6 Dark Riders, one unit of 6 Shades and four Reaper Bolt Throwers.

I have played against such armies in the past and sympathise. I play in a "no tooling" environment too and sometimes it can be hard. My personal nemesis was the castled up anvil dwarfs with multiple miners. This was until i realised that i could block my critical rear area with skirmishers and cheap warriors and force those miners onto the table in a less advantageous position. Perhaps you could try the same verses the ambushers. Dont forget that the ambushers have to start in contact with the table edge and at no point can they move within an inch of one of your units (unless charging).

How many power dice do you use? I am guessing 9?
I currently run 3 level 2's in my all comers dark elf list and find that 9 PD worth of death magic per turn is lethal against just about anything.
Death magic has 3 factors in its favour:

1. Good default spell - d6S4 hits is never useless
2. Decent 24" range on most spells - keeps your sorceresses out of harms way and forces those scrolls out early in the game.
3. Low casting values - +1 to cast helps too.

The killer spells in the lore are doom and darkness and wind of death, get two off in one turn and your are likely to see anything not itp running at the end of the phase.

The other thing i have realised since 7th is the value of putting your sorceresses in non scouting units of shades. Aside from their firepower, they provide the mobility, protection and 360 los that a sorceress needs to be effective. I use 2 units of 8 in my list and absolutely love em.

Just some suggestions, i play in a competetive group and manage to win around half of my games

The SkaerKrow
22-01-2007, 07:06
Thanks Venkh, those are some good suggestions. I don't usually take Shades (I did in my Tournament list to hamper the threat of Tunneling Teams and Tomb Scorpions), so when I want my Sorceress to get a 360 LOS I've done so by putting her with an RBT crew. It's proven to be a really fragile formation (as I'm sure you can imagine), so Shades may in fact be the better way to go.

I think the most important thing that I need to do is get my own copy of the Beasts of Chaos book so I can see how exactly Ambush works. If I understand the specifics of the BoC rules, I'll have a better chance of countering them.

Dspankdo
22-01-2007, 07:30
Deploy everything in one corner with your all of the board edge being occupied by a unit at least 1 unit 1 inch away from the said edge, that way the beast unit can't come on behind you and bite you in the ass. Have Many units of rxb with standards champions and shields. Have a few units of C1K and DR in between your Rxb units to charge out and most importantly have three sorcerreses, 4 if you feel cheesy.

Glorfindel
22-01-2007, 09:15
Actually, I don't take Witch Elves because they die in a stiff wind. My group frowns on "tailor making" lists to fight against certain opponents, so we're expected to use all-comers lists against everyone. Since there's still quite a few Wood Elf players in our group, I've learned that the best place for Witch Elves is safe in my miniatures case, far away from the battlefield (or more accurately, far away from Glade Guard on hills).

The army that I took for our "playoffs" included two Nobles on Chariots, a High Sorceress, a normal Sorceress, two blocks of 20 Warriors, two blocks of 12 Corsairs, two blocks of 6 Dark Riders, one unit of 6 Shades and four Reaper Bolt Throwers. The list completely tore up Empire and Wood Elves (and has been by far my most successful Dark Elf list), but it didn't have a fighting chance against his tricked-out Beasts of Chaos.

I do appreciate everyone's suggestions, insights and comments, regardless of how skeptical that I may seem. My most recent loss just has me extremely demoralized about my Dark Elves.

What elf unit does not die from glade guard bows? :p

Anyway if you don't want to consider witch elves, at least try a units of cold one knights and a warhydra instead of your 4 repeater bolt throwers (war hydra + 5 cold one knight + full command is 410 points)

I mean you are using cold one chariots, the stupidity is the same? And cold one knights might suffer from flimsy lances but your chariots might suffer from flimsy impact hits aswel! It's called unlucky dice rolling, it happens to every unit! Believe me if I field my cold one knights my opponents are quite worried, it affects their movement and battle plans a lot because those guys can be devasting.
The War hydra causes terror, has a flaming breath attack and again a short base which forces the herd units to a small front with little attacks against a cc monster. It's also effective againt wood elves, t5 with 4+ save won't have too much trouble from elven bowfire plus a breath attack against all those flammable targets and t3 opponents without a difficult to hit roll, deadly! (imagines a hydra breathing down on wardancers, waywatchers, scouts, wild riders, all t3 and such a high point value, before killing them off in cc with 5 attacks ws4 str 5)

GrogsnotPowwabomba
22-01-2007, 12:10
I think Terror causing monsters, especially Manticores and Dragons, will help you immensley against this army.

I also agree Witch Elves would be very effective against BoC. Their lack of armor is less an issue than against most armies because of the BoC lack of shooting, and their high # of poison attacks is especially dangerous to BoC because of their general lack of armor.

I also agree that RBT are almost completely useless against your opponent here. Then again, I am not a big fan of RBT and think they are highly overrated.

The SkaerKrow
23-01-2007, 19:04
Anyway if you don't want to consider witch elves, at least try a units of cold one knights and a warhydra instead of your 4 repeater bolt throwers (war hydra + 5 cold one knight + full command is 410 points)

My opponent rolls Pit of Shades every single time that he plays Warhammer (literally, and he rolled it in the game against me like clockwork). The War Hydra is too easy of a target for that spell, and gets carved up by Minotaurs, Dragon Ogres and even Centigors. I'd consider if for guarding my rear against ambushers (Skirmisher, Fear-against-Fear causers, won't give him enough frontage to gain ranks), though losing a Rare spot hurts my ability to volley things to death.

Cold One Knights are terribly expensive and shockingly fragile. A couple of unfortunate rolls (and to make it clear, I am an unfortunate roller) and the unit is in tatters. I don't care for heavy cavalry in general, though. On the other hand, the Cold One Chariot is Toughness 5 and can suffer four wounds before it loses fighting ability (and is therefore destroyed). Augmented by a Noble, it ends up clocking in at a price comparable to that of a unit of Cold One Knights, and works well in supporting the rest of my infantry based list.

RBTs have been the one saving grace of my Dark Elves lately. The ability to shatter units with 24 S4, AP attacks each turn goes a long way towards creating holes in your opponent's battle plan. In three consecutive games, the threat of those four RBTs caused my opponents to abandon their battle plan and instead focus on my RBTs. That allowed me to exploit the errors in their impromptu tactica, instead of spending the game trying to cover for the frailties of my own list. In all three games I scored a massacre, the only consecutive massacres that my Dark Elves have claim. Against that Beasts of Chaos player I'd managed to destroy half of his Bestigor unit (almost panicking them off the table, they stopped an inch short) and crossfire his Dragon Ogres with a unit of Dark Riders after panicking them from RBT fire. So, at least in my experience, they aren't at all overrated.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
23-01-2007, 22:00
I don't mean for you to take this the wrong way, but it seems like you are not really considering the advice of others, because most suggestions have been dismissed and you continue to want to use the tools that have thus far not been working for you. Elves are also a specialized army and for your opponents to expect you to take an all-comer list, when this is clearly an environment disadvantagous to Elves, is a bit silly unless it is a tournament environment. I have no idea what to tell you at this point...

I just can't stress enough how relying on 4 RBT is hurting your game. Just try not using them, and you will likely see that your ability to set up traps and win combats increases due to the larger number of troops you can field. Not to mention that they are especially bad against an ambusing, skirmishing army like Beasts. I just think you have too many eggs in that basket (and it is an overpriced, fragile basket at that).

sulla
24-01-2007, 03:49
RBTs have been the one saving grace of my Dark Elves lately. The ability to shatter units with 24 S4, AP attacks each turn goes a long way towards creating holes in your opponent's battle plan. In three consecutive games, the threat of those four RBTs caused my opponents to abandon their battle plan and instead focus on my RBTs..

Although, if you want to spend 400 pts on something which will totally disrupt your opponent's battleplans, A dragon is probably an even better choice vs beastmen.

The SkaerKrow
24-01-2007, 05:12
I don't mean for you to take this the wrong way, but it seems like you are not really considering the advice of others, because most suggestions have been dismissed and you continue to want to use the tools that have thus far not been working for you.
I'm not new to Warhammer or to Dark Elves, and I don't have the luxury of being able to tailor my list to every single opponent that I face. Therefore, I need tips on winning a battle vs. Beasts on the table, not during the army composition phase. The suggestions that I've cast aside are things that I've tried in the past, which failed. And, despite what you might be insinuating, I'm not using quad RBTs as a crutch to compensate for an inability to use "proper" battlefield tactics (I only started to run four RBTs around the middle of December), I'm using them because they work.

The Dragon is an interesting idea. Kind of like the Manticore, but turned up to 11. I'm not so good with Dragons, but that's in part because every time I take a Dragon list, I fight a Dragon list (about a fifth of our regular players run various Dragon lists), and those Dragoneers are more savvy with them than I.

Oddly enough, I actually talked to the BoC player tonight about our game, and he gave me some pointers (he's a nice guy, just runs a tough list). He's of the opinion that I shouldn't abandon the RBTs, and that I wasn't doing as poorly as I thought in our game (even though my battle plan was FUBAR by the end of Turn Three).

Neknoh
24-01-2007, 06:47
Witch Elves (herds die in droves to these), Cold One Chariots (a herd fighting a chariot will ONLY rank up FOUR wide, meaning no static CR)


and a character with the mark of Chaos Undivided can NOT conferr this abillity to the unit he has joined!!!!!!!


Also, the important thing with beastherds is to hit their Rear, especially if you can hit the front with a 50mm base model (a chariot or a monster), for if you hit the rear, you will get to the Ungors, the Ungors are VERY squishy, and squishy stuff die quickly

Lord Steven
24-01-2007, 07:14
Aren't beast herds skirmishers? I always thought they line up against a charge with the gors pushing to the front.

This effectively gives them no flank and no rear.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
24-01-2007, 11:59
I'm not new to Warhammer or to Dark Elves, and I don't have the luxury of being able to tailor my list to every single opponent that I face. Therefore, I need tips on winning a battle vs. Beasts on the table, not during the army composition phase. The suggestions that I've cast aside are things that I've tried in the past, which failed. And, despite what you might be insinuating, I'm not using quad RBTs as a crutch to compensate for an inability to use "proper" battlefield tactics (I only started to run four RBTs around the middle of December), I'm using them because they work.

I'm not insinuating you use the RBT as a crutch. I (and many others) am stating that if you don't spend 20% of your points on overpriced, fragile war machines against a skirmishing, ambushing army, you might have a better chance. Call me crazy...

I guess I just don't understand why you ask for advice if you don't listen to 99% of the advice given. The perfect example are Witch Elves, which WILL work against Beasts, and work very well. They may be vulnerable against your Wood Elf opponents, but most armies with balanced lists have certain vulnerabilities against certain other armies. Its just the nature of the game. I just feel that since you have had a few bad experiences with some of the choices in the army list that you have completely written them off, which is unfortunate because it limits your options. Your call in the end.

Another thing to consider is not going magic heavy. This will save you significant points that can be used to create mobile, fighting nobles (Dark Pegasus, Dark Steed, etc) and still have points left over for more troops. Then again, I have always favored fast, combat-heavy Druchii armies rather than magic or shooting oriented ones.

In the end I just think your list (and your brain) needs a big shake-up considering the problem you are encountering and your previous messages in this thread.

But if you do really want to stick to your current list, can you give some very specific tactical situations that are happening against this opponent, and a bit more description about your characters, the lores you take, and more on his army and on terrain/deployment?

Neknoh
24-01-2007, 20:34
Aren't beast herds skirmishers? I always thought they line up against a charge with the gors pushing to the front.

This effectively gives them no flank and no rear.


Untill charged by something else, which, preferably, should make them rank up 4 wide, the charges are resolved in the order they are declared, so, if you declare a charge with a Chariot on one end and then a charge with some Dark Riders on the opposite end, the Chariot will charge in first, ranking the unit up 4 wide, then, the Dark Riders will get into the fray, removing any ranks given to the herd (none if the "frontal" charge is carried out by a 50mm wide base unit), and getting to the squishy Ungors.

The SkaerKrow
25-01-2007, 07:10
the charges are resolved in the order they are declared
As a curious aside, as of 7th Edition it appears that you can move your chargers in any order, not just the order that the charges were declared in.

Ranking him up and backstabbing his units gels well with the idea of taking a Dragon or Manticore. If I can find a way to break the back of his Ambushers before they turn my army to cole slaw, I can handle the rest of his force pretty easily.

Garoth
25-01-2007, 08:08
As a curious aside, as of 7th Edition it appears that you can move your chargers in any order, not just the order that the charges were declared in.

No, they are still moved in the order that they declared. (BRB, p.20, Move Chargers, 1st paragraph.)

Prince Sairion
25-01-2007, 08:32
As you asked for how to beat this army on the table and not army compo, here would be my plan with what you and he had.

Deploy your four (:eyebrows: ) repeaters spread out along your table edge. So he has to choose two of them to ambush and then 'deal' seperately with t'other two later (at worst another turn of shooting for two.)

Use said bolt throwers to gun his monsters. Don't waste them on his other units as you can fight with these adequately in combat.

Tie up his centigors with your fast cav and shades (shades in cover where the centigors may choose to move through.)

Advance your blocks with chariots by their side to confront his starting herd and bestigor.

corsairs to offer the charge to the monsters (that remain) and flee/stand and let them overrun to be out of position for two turns.

Get your army (exception RBT's) as far from your table edge as possible and make him think about whether he needs his ambushes on a different table edge to cope with your movements.

The SkaerKrow
25-01-2007, 20:21
Huh, I wonder why we've been playing it differently. Ah well, good to know.

Against his list I ended up trying to run a refused flank formation, with the RBTs surrounded by infantry in one corner of my deployment zone. This failed for a lot of reasons, not the least of which was my inexperience at running such a formation (I tend more towards Line of Battle deployments). It worked well enough against his frontal assault, but made everything easy prey for his Ambushers. I tried using Shades and Chariots to protect the rear of my battery (and deny him choice entry points) but that didn't work as he was able to emerge between my units. Both ideas (the unit screen at the rear of my battery and the refused flank) were suggestions from more experienced players in our group. What kills me is that, in hindsight, I'm certain that my usual tactics would have worked out better. All I really did was make it easier on him to envelop my army.

Good stuff, Sairion. Usually I'd be loathe to essentially abandon my RBTs (in the past I've spent most of my games against him essentially in my starting blocks), but I can see how that would actually work out.

Reinhard_Vogner
25-01-2007, 23:46
Well, I am not insinuating that I am a superior general, but if something is not working, then bottom line is something needs to change. Thats called common sense.

If this guy knows how to beat your list, think of a new list to give him pause. It doesn't need to be tailored to beat his, but there are other effective ways to play dark elves that can still be all comers. Adaptability is an important part of generalship, and if your unwilling to adapt, then you might as well stop playing. You are just relying on luck at that point. Tactics are important, but bringing something the enemy doesn't know how to handle or expect to a fight, is a tactic within itself. Instead of boxing yourself in to a set way to play and trying to find out how to maximize its ability, find a new way to play that shakes up what the enemy expects. That is how wars and battles have always been won.

I am not here to tell you to pick this unit or that, because like you said, you know what you work with well and know how to use what your good at. But boxing yourself in and limit experimentation is always fatal in the long run. Even the best strategy and unit combinations can be beaten once the enemy knows its weaknesses. Find out his weaknesses, exploit them, gain the inititive. Any fight, no matter what it is, is lost once the other side is calling the punches.

This is not a personal attack, but maybe I can shed some light past the usual "pick this unit." or "menuver them this way!" and let you form up your own ideas on how to excell. You seem like your a competent tactitian, you just need to regain that inititive and force battle on your terms.

druchii
26-01-2007, 06:36
Well, I am not insinuating that I am a superior general, but if something is not working, then bottom line is something needs to change. Thats called common sense.

_SNIp_.

This is not a personal attack, but maybe I can shed some light past the usual "pick this unit." or "menuver them this way!" and let you form up your own ideas on how to excell. You seem like your a competent tactitian, you just need to regain that inititive and force battle on your terms.


Note: I do not mean this as a personal attack, in any way possible.


Essentialy, you're telling my friend crow to change up his list, by..not..changing..up..his...list?

Seriously. Read the origional post, please. He asked for advice on how to overcome the said Beasts general, and I can not stress this enough,with what he has. Don't post something telling him to change his army around(and then NOT EXPLAIN HOW TO DO SO!).

Don't post something that's obviously derisive and pretend it isn't. Crow hasn't even come close to ignoring half the good ideas that have been offered(none of which you, reinhard, or you GrogsnotPowwabomba, have given).

d

AUN'SHI
26-01-2007, 17:28
I think it's failry simple. Mind you I don't know what you have in your army and how many points. But what you need to do is set up at the very end of the board so that way he can't come out from behind you. Set your rbt togeather on the right or left side or put one on the right or on the left seperatly. Beside the rbt put a unit of something warriors, spear elves, COK, ect. Now your rbts are safe. He has to come to you right... soo shoot the hell out of him.

With the DE you can definatly shoot the heck out of him until his units are nothing. The beast men LD is not so good and armour sucks. So you might want to put in a hydra beside ur rbts good old terror test help lots:evilgrin:

The unit that ambushes can't attack until the next turn at that point you kill everything by either shooting of manuvering your units to he kinda has not choice but top charge them. Or just make him run.

Oh and when the guy comes out of ambushing shoot him with some magic. I usually run 2 level 2 mages with the DE. But thats me :)

Reinhard_Vogner
26-01-2007, 20:46
To Druchii: No offense taken, even if it actually was a personal attack as under your own logic. Afterall you added even less to the discussion then I did. But I can understand how I worded that could be confusing. I am not telling him to change something, and then not to change something. I am stressing the fact that something needs to be changed, but no matter what anyone says, it really is up to him what he sees fit to change. I apologize if it was confusing as english is not my first language.

You just read too literally in my words I think. I am just teaching some of the core values of strategem and tactics that any military force would tell their soldiers. I am not familiar with the Dark Elves list, but I do know that once the enemy is forced out of their comfort zone, they create additional opportunities for you to exploit. In the end, no matter cookie cutter list I give him, HE is the one who knows what he works well with and he will use that. Many times we find outselves putting ourselves in a subconcious "lose" mode, and thus subconciously admit defeat, even if we strive to win on the concious level. Everyone has done this before, its part of human nature. Krow might not be a defeatist, infact, I think he is quite the opposite from how he writes. But if that defeatist thought enters the subconcious, like a theif in the night we will not notice it unless we know what to look for. All that I have said, is if he does have that lodged in the unseen part of his mind, he can go "Have I been subconciously working against myself by letting the enemy take the inititive? What have I done that has made the enemy take pause, and how can I exploit that to a greater advantage? What have I left open that has hurt me the most last game?"

Its a hard thing to face yourself and accept what you might have done wrong, but by looking at your own mistakes, you learn how to fix them yourself without the aid of others. People telling you what units to take serves a very short term benefit and you do not learn from it, as you would when you mentally analyize why you have been losing.

Again, I am not trying to be offensive, but shedding some light on a different perspective that does not have to do with
"Bring 10 cold ones!" and instead, bringing to light some of the fundementals of battlefield phsycology.

...and if something is confusing, I apologize. I am just trying to pass on what I have been taught that has helped me on a much deeper level then being told what to do by others. As the self, the individual knows how he operates and how to work with what he is good at. Maybe RBT's are not the best at taking on beastmen, maybe they are. IF he knows that he uses them well, damn well sure hes going to bring them for the sole fact that he knows how to use them properly. Everyone fights differently, thinks differently, plays warhammer differently. What I am telling him is universal that applies to all things. How he can analyize his own mistakes maybe just alittle better. Nobody is perfect and we all constantly make mistakes.