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View Full Version : Why haven't Forge World done =][= models?



Hellebore
20-01-2007, 04:10
FW has such a high quality, I think that we would all die if they DID do =][= models:cries:


The casting process is much easier, and they could do a prolific amount of them without too much trouble.

I don't imagine they would cost more than the metal ones now.

Hellebore

TheWarSmith
20-01-2007, 05:34
It's something I would have thought would be a good idea, but for some reason, they're hesitant to do it.

They actually would cost more, because even though the casting process might be easier/cheaper, the sculpting isn't by a huge margin.

Hellebore
20-01-2007, 07:21
Well, the only reason I said that was because most of their Epic models cost the same or even less than the metal SG equivalents.

I imagine that production costs even less at much smaller sizes. As far as I can tell, there are two determinors for cost: size and complexity.

An inquisitor model should be simpler to cast than a 40k model (less small fidly bits) but will be bigger.

Warhounds are a good example. They are 10 pounds EACH through SG, or 18 pounds for 2 from FW, saving you 2 pounds (obviously only if you want 2 of them, but they come in units of 2 so...).

The Reaver titans cost exactly the same amount.

Hellebore

inq.serge
20-01-2007, 10:53
But, would it be cost effective for FW.

Would people buy? (I know PO would, but I'm usure about the rest.)

Damn, I must try to sound less capitalistic.

precinctomega
20-01-2007, 19:01
There's been no sign of a reluctance of hobbyists to buy large-scale miniatures from Forgeworld. Their best-selling 120mm Space Marine and 80mm Sister of Battle (which I have and still haven't finished painting...) have proved that point, as have the many high quality busts and other display pieces so far produced.

It could be argued that their massive Greater Daemon models are more suited to the flexible game environment offered by INQ than to the 28mm battlefield (where they're basically just big fire-magnets).

I can see that the appeal of 54mm gaming models may be limited, but I would not be at all surprised to see models produced along similar lines to Reaper's recent Masterworks releases: i.e. display pieces for advanced hobbyists. That these could be bastardized by nutters like me for the tabletop is neither here nor there.

For the time being, the reason we've not seen these is that FW has been small and experimental enough that its priorities have been driven by the interests and obsessions of its key drivers. This explains the prepondrance of tanks, the emergence of IG variant armies, the focus on high-tactics games like BFG and EPIC and the occasional "OMFG" project - like the immense Bloodthirster head recently released.

All they need is one sculptor or manager with an interest in 54mm models and one will emerge.

R.

R.

Wintermute
20-01-2007, 19:06
Its simple really, I do not think FW believe sufficient demand exists to justify producing figures for Inquisitor.

t-tauri
20-01-2007, 20:46
Its simple really, I do not think FW believe sufficient demand exists to justify producing figures for Inquisitor.
Especially as the 40k RPG will bury Inquisitor shortly. Even GW Mail order don't carry all the Inquisitor figures as some are oop, I believe.

Catferret
20-01-2007, 20:47
I'd love FW to start supporting Inquisitor and the other Specialist Games. Lets face it, Fanatic aren't!:mad:

I am now drooloing at the thought of how awesome all the Inquisitor and Necromunda models would look! So much potential...

The Judge
20-01-2007, 21:48
According to my redshirt friends, Inquisitor is the best-selling specialist game... and forgeworld support most of the others!

Gen_eV
20-01-2007, 22:15
...and forgeworld support most of the others!

So where are all the Bloodbowl, Necromunda, Mordheim figures then? Two Dwarf Airships and a few terrain pieces hardly counts as 'support' for Warmaster.

I'd love to see some FW =][= figures myself, although I still think they'd be onto a major winner producing multi-part Necromunda figures. (especially if they have them capable of being shunted across into 40K IG armies)

Hellebore
21-01-2007, 01:35
I'm just wondering how much revenue FW make off their EPIC titans etc.

It can't be anymore than they'd make off =][= scale models surely? An imperial army would require only a few titan models, whilst Inquisitor would need multiple models, AND weapons sprues, AND head sprues, AND, and, and STUFF sprues. :cool:

Hellebore

precinctomega
21-01-2007, 12:19
I do not think FW believe sufficient demand exists to justify producing figures for Inquisitor.

Not true. No one at FW has ever wondered whether there would be "demand" for any design before producing it. They still possess the luxury of making anything they think would be "cool".


Especially as the 40k RPG will bury Inquisitor shortly.

Also not true. Immensely excited, though I am, about the imminent release of Dark Heresy (put back to Aug 07, dammit!), the two games are distinctly different in many respects and I don't plan on writing an essay about it here. In fact, it is entirely possible that DH will enhance the sales of INQ models, as they will be better suited to playing out the melee scenes of the game than 28mm ones, allegedly. I stand open to correction, but I believe INQ and DH will be complementary systems, not competing ones.


Even GW Mail order don't carry all the Inquisitor figures as some are oop, I believe.

Cutting the INQ range had very little to do with sales and a great deal more to do with production schedules. I don't intend to go through all that again. However,


Inquisitor is the best-selling specialist game

Sort of. Sales figures for INQ models and parts tops the list amongst the SG ranges, that's true. However, for the most part these are bought either as a part of a conversion plan for a 28mm army, or as pure display-level models without the itent of actually playing INQ. As a game, anecodtal suggests that the regularity of play puts INQ in fifth place, after (in this order) BFG, NEC, EPIC and BB. Only WM and BOFA are played less.

I am, of course, trying to do something about this!

Gen_eV is, of course, quite right that FW doesn't actively support BB, MORD or NEC directly. However, the terrain, 28mm ranges and other supporting ancillaries are all indirect support for these 28mm ranges.

I think Hellebore has put his finger on where FW could realistically add great value to the INQ range without a massive investment of time or effort: booster packs. Variant arms, weapons, heads, legs etc would be snapped up to customize the existing INQ range. And this would appeal to the players and display hobbyists alike.

R.

The pestilent 1
22-01-2007, 14:38
But, would it be cost effective for FW.

Would people buy? (I know PO would, but I'm usure about the rest.)

Damn, I must try to sound less capitalistic.

*Points to the manta, and the Imperial palace*

I imagine not too many people will buy those, either.

The Judge
22-01-2007, 19:12
Sort of. Sales figures for INQ models and parts tops the list amongst the SG ranges, that's true. However, for the most part these are bought either as a part of a conversion plan for a 28mm army, or as pure display-level models without the itent of actually playing INQ. As a game, anecodtal suggests that the regularity of play puts INQ in fifth place, after (in this order) BFG, NEC, EPIC and BB. Only WM and BOFA are played less.


If I was making models purely on whether they sell, I don't think I'd care much that people don't play the game. Whether I produce new books would come under that.

precinctomega
22-01-2007, 19:18
I quite agree - but the point I was making wasn't that 54mm models don't sell, but that those sales figures don't make Inquisitor the "best-selling Specialist Game". Pedantry, perhaps, but an important point to recall.

R.

The Judge
24-01-2007, 19:26
So you're saying that because people don't buy stuff to play Inquisitor, it does not make it the best selling game? Fair play... if that's the way Forgeworld is thinking, let's have some "54mm models" released then please!

precinctomega
25-01-2007, 10:53
LOL! No, sorry, I was arguing a divergent point. FW isn't "thinking" at all about what models it makes.

Well, it is. I understand that it involves the design team sitting around a table, showing off whatever they've been working on recently. Whoever's piece gets the loudest "ooh!" gets to lead development of the next range.

No one at FW is asking themselves what's going to sell, because they know that as long as they can get that "ooh!" factor everything will sell. So they get to do whatever they like the most. Right now, that doesn't include 54mm models. In the future, it might, but there's no plan, as such, so there's no way to say how or when that will occur.

The other thing I was arguing was that INQ isn't the "best-selling game" because the SG games aren't for sale per se (with the exception of the new BFG rulebook, of course). It is true that INQ has the best selling range of miniatures, but that doesn't translate to the game being the most popular.

Nor does the popularity of the game dictate whether FW will support it. They make WM stuff, after all, but not BB stuff. BB is way more popular than WM, but no one at FW is that interested in doing new BB stuff right now.

And that answers the question in the topic title:

Why haven't Forge World done =][= models?
Because no one has felt inclined to do so. It's not strategic, it's not financial, it's not economic and it's not about a vendetta against INQ or any other SpecGame. They just don't feel like it. Yet.

R.

HughbertofKhorne
15-04-2007, 17:37
We should start a petition!
maybe make a few death threats.. *whimpers*

Stuff sprues are needed most of all, I cant believe that even in Inquisitors height we were so... underequipped

Majin
16-04-2007, 06:14
As much as I love my Inquisitor, I doubt that they would ever stock it, I have a feeling the market demand isn't enough sadly.

precinctomega sorry to be all off topic, but you don't happen to have pictures of that Sister of Battle do you? Ive seen the Marine one but never the sister >_<

precinctomega
16-04-2007, 08:44
She's in my attic. I might get her down and finish her at some point.

R.

Chaos and Evil
16-04-2007, 22:48
It's also worth asking whether Inquisitor is the most profitable Specialist Game...

Time-wise, 54mm models take a lot longer to sculpt than a 28mm or 6mm model... in the time it takes to sculpt one awesomely detailed Inquisitor, you could instead sculpt three or four Epic tanks perhaps...

Production-wise, Inquisitor has no plastic sprues, so it's inherently more expensive to produce than BFG or Epic, for example...

precinctomega
17-04-2007, 09:05
Time-wise, 54mm models take a lot longer to sculpt than a 28mm or 6mm model... in the time it takes to sculpt one awesomely detailed Inquisitor, you could instead sculpt three or four Epic tanks perhaps...

Production-wise, Inquisitor has no plastic sprues, so it's inherently more expensive to produce than BFG or Epic, for example...

Oh dear. I'm afraid you have merely betrayed a deep lack of understanding of the processes. First of all, the time spent sculpting the model is utterly insignificant once production passes sufficient castings to have compensated the sculptor for his time. As GW sculptors are salaried, it's hard to determine the point this occurs, but GW enjoys such high volume that the point at which castings become profitable arrives very quickly after an individual model is released.

Secondly, metal castings are considerably cheaper than plastic ones. I could cast metal models in my garage (if I had a garage - I'd do it in the kitchen, but the wife complains about the smell). It just takes a latex mould and a smelting pot - even top notch kit costs less than 100. Using resin, as Forgeworld does, is even cheaper and the moulds even easier to make.

Plastic only becomes cheaper when economies of scale come into play. Space Marines sell at such high volume that it is economically viable to sell them as the fabled "all plastic army". No other army enjoys such volume (yet - Eldar are close) and even Space Marines still have their low volume special characters cast in metal because it's cheaper.

R.

Chaos and Evil
17-04-2007, 12:07
Oh dear. I'm afraid you have merely betrayed a deep lack of understanding of the processes. First of all, the time spent sculpting the model is utterly insignificant once production passes sufficient castings to have compensated the sculptor for his time. As GW sculptors are salaried, it's hard to determine the point this occurs, but GW enjoys such high volume that the point at which castings become profitable arrives very quickly after an individual model is released.

I can say with some confidence that I know what I'm talking about when I say that the time spent sculpting models pretty much ForgeWorld's most major concern when they look at future projects.

You are now a FW sculptor. You have five days. You can sculpt one Inquisitor figure (Who will sell X ammount), or three Aeronautica planes (Which will sell 3Y ammount).

Which will make the most money for the company in the end? Which does your boss ask you to make?




Using resin, as Forgeworld does, is even cheaper and the moulds even easier to make.
Resin casting on an industrial scale is considerably more expensive than Metal casting, just so you know.


Plastic only becomes cheaper when economies of scale come into play. Space Marines sell at such high volume that it is economically viable to sell them as the fabled "all plastic army". No other army enjoys such volume (yet - Eldar are close) and even Space Marines still have their low volume special characters cast in metal because it's cheaper.

Who was talking about 40k Space Marines?

I was talking about Specialist Game lines which have plastic sprues already existant, thus meaning that the day-to-day production costs are miniscule compared to, for example, Inquisitor's labour-intensive large metal casts.



So, which is the biggest selling Specialist Games line?

I don't doubt it's Inquisitor.


Which is the most profitable Specialist Games line?

At this point, probably Epic, because of all the plastic infantry frames it has, which paid back on the initial investment needed to create them years ago.

An Epic infantry box sells for 12, yet costs the company pennies to produce (Including the cost of the cardboard box).

An Inquisitor figure costs the company far, far more to produce, is far more labour-intensive to produce, yet sells for the same 12. Inquisitor is therefore less profitable.

BFG & Mordheim also have plastic sprues, making those lines also cheaper to produce than Inquisitor.

(I'd be tempted to say Battle of Five Armies is one of the most profitable too, assuming the initial investment in all those plastic frames was ever paid off).