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Mordu22
20-01-2007, 15:01
Is Insane courage on a single die when you roll a one or when you roll a two or a one?

20-01-2007, 15:04
Insane courage is when your roll double ones on your break test.

NakedFisherman
20-01-2007, 15:44

Mordu22
20-01-2007, 16:38
:eyebrows: Okay........If One is taking a breaktest using only one die, Do they get insane courage on a
a)roll of one
b)roll of 2 and not on roll of one (double 1's =2)
c)roll of one or a roll of 2
D)cannot get insane courage because it is impossible to roll 2 one on a
signle die

Yellow Commissar
20-01-2007, 17:07
:eyebrows: Okay........If One is taking a breaktest using only one die, Do they get insane courage on a
a)roll of one
b)roll of 2 and not on roll of one (double 1's =2)
c)roll of one or a roll of 2
D)cannot get insane courage because it is impossible to roll 2 one on a
signle die

Festus
20-01-2007, 17:14
Hi

How are the chances of rolling a double 1 with just one die? Why do Kamikaze pilots wear helmets? How many roads must a man walk down...?

The great mysteries of Mankind.

Festus

Mephistofeles
20-01-2007, 17:50
If you for any strange reason would take a break test on 1 die, you can not get insane courage no, since it says that you have to roll double ones...

And seriously dude, guess C was just seriously strange...

Drogmir
20-01-2007, 17:59
Snake Eyes dammit! Snake Eyes!

Mordu22
20-01-2007, 22:22
For Guess C I was wondering, because snake eyes is just a term for rolling 2, if a roll of 2 would pass with insane courage. It seems that rolling snake eyes and rolling 2 are the same thing when taking a break test. And if a 2 passes your test and all you need to pass a test is to get equal or less than a one would do it as well.

Grimtuff
20-01-2007, 22:58
How many roads must a man walk down...?

Seven! Oh it was a rhetorical question..... Eight then! :D

metro_gnome
21-01-2007, 00:54
why must we drive on a parkway and park on a driveway?

Arnizipal
21-01-2007, 02:20
Just out of interest: when would you ever take a breaktest using only one die?

Mordu22
21-01-2007, 03:01
Rune of Determination lets you roll just one D6

Mephistofeles
21-01-2007, 08:04
For Guess C I was wondering, because snake eyes is just a term for rolling 2, if a roll of 2 would pass with insane courage. It seems that rolling snake eyes and rolling 2 are the same thing when taking a break test. And if a 2 passes your test and all you need to pass a test is to get equal or less than a one would do it as well.

No it's not, snake eyes is a term for rolling two ones, not for rolling two...

21-01-2007, 08:24
Yup. As Mephistofeles said, snake eyes is not even remotely the same as rolling two on a single d6. It's specifically rolling two ones on a pair of d6, and thats it. Since you can't do that on a single die, you obviously can't use Insane Courage.

Griefbringer
21-01-2007, 08:34
Option D would be the correct one, as the rules say you have to roll double 1's. I guess the unit taking the break test could still opt to not using the Rune of Determination, allowing them to use 2D6 instead (I don't have the new dwarf book, so I am not sure if they must use that rune).

Option A would be correct if the rules would just require all the dice to roll 1's.
Option B would be correct if the rules would require you to roll exactly 2.
Option C would be correct if the rules required rolling 2 or less.

Mordu22
21-01-2007, 13:43
So no insane courage on one die. okay.

How is rolling snake eyes not the same as rolling two ones on 2d6. OR how is "rolling snake eyes" not the same as rolling a 2 or less on 2d6? They seem to be just different ways of expressing the exact same outcome needed And there is only one way to achieve this outcome. To think they are not would be like saying the United States of America is not the same as the USA.

DeathlessDraich
21-01-2007, 13:57
If double 1s = Insane Courage then shouldn't

double 6s = Insane Cowardice :D

chivalrous
21-01-2007, 14:02
How is rolling snake eyes not the same as rolling two ones on 2d6. OR how is "rolling snake eyes" not the same as rolling a 2 or less on 2d6?

There is no difference. Rolling snake eyes is the same as rolling a double one when you only have 2 D6.
In your original quote, you didn't specify the roll being on 2D6, just:

snake eyes is just a term for rolling 2

It's not snake eyes if less than or more than 2D6 are rolled.

In addition your suggestions for rolling 2 on a single D6 earlier, may have suggested to people that weren't aware of this distinction yourself.

and we're all rather pedantic on this forum:p please don't take offence.

Sherlocko
21-01-2007, 14:50
Erhm, it dosenīt matter what "snake eyes" is, the rule say you must rule a double 1 to be able to stand ground. And you canīt roll a double 1 with only one die.

Mephistofeles
21-01-2007, 15:25
Seriously, this is a simple as rules get. Please lock this thread...

greenskin
21-01-2007, 15:30
Once I read through the thread and saw his thought process, I felt it was a reasonable question. It certainly wouldn't be the oddest rule in the book for a break test taken on one die to auto-pass on a 1.

Sherlocko
21-01-2007, 16:38
No, that is not resonable because the rule explicity says you have to roll a double 1. Since a single die is just a single die you can never roll something double with it.

It is pretty much the same as you canīt get a miscast/irrisistble force when you cast magic with a single die.

greenskin
21-01-2007, 16:43
Funny what you consider reasonable, Sherlocko. There are plenty of times in the rulebook where a general rule is stated, then elsewhere there is an exception.

For example, in one paragraph the rulebook says units outnumbered by fear-causing enemies automatically fail their break tests. Then in a subsequent paragraph, in states you can hold with Insane Courage. There could easily have been printed in the rulebook a similar exemption for when rolling a one-die break test.

What is your real problem with this?

T10
21-01-2007, 16:47

Perhaps he can buy yours since you don't seem to be using it (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63130).

-T10

Sherlocko
21-01-2007, 16:47
That no exception is stated, so if you make up one as a house-rule then fine, but if you make up exceptions yourself it is no more than house-rules.

greenskin
21-01-2007, 16:58
T10, that is an insulting response. I read my rulebook thoroughly and often post here to help those who have trouble with rulebook issues. I don't see why you feel the need to berate people for asking questions.

Sherlocko, I know there is no exception stated. I, myself, have often asked questions after reading a portion of the rulebook to verify that I have understood it correctly and that I haven't missed anything. I don't see the problem in doing so.

Basically, I think you're both being [a contemptibly naive, fatuous, foolish, or inconsequential person.]

Atrahasis
21-01-2007, 17:02
T10, that is an insulting response. I read my rulebook thoroughly and often post here to help those who have trouble with rulebook issues. I don't see why you feel the need to berate people for asking questions.T10 was actually berating NakedFisherman for being unhelpful.

Take more care before calling someone a "jerk".

greenskin
21-01-2007, 17:04
Oh! My bad, T10! I appologize. Nice call, Atrahasis, on the deciphering and thanks for pointing out my slipup.

EDIT: I see now why the link. Again, sorry T10!

Mephistofeles
21-01-2007, 17:36
Seriously...there is nothing wrong with asking if you have understood something correctly, but starting a discussion about it is another thing.

It's starting to sound a bit like the subject of "I should be able to use 5 characters, since I can take 4 heroes and a lord"...
I don't want that.

If something is not stated in the rulebook, then it does not exist. Simple as that. If the book says one thing, and no exceptions are given, then there are no exceptions.

Mordu22
21-01-2007, 19:04
So, is one able to pass a leadership test that requires a one? by rolling a one on 1d6?
I was wondering because the rules didn't state anything about it rolling better than a 2 (snake eyes) so it might not be part of the existing rules.

Reinnon
21-01-2007, 19:17
..... yes, thats obvious.

what you can't do is pass a test what requires a 0 on a roll of a one on a single dice, as that isn't snake eyes

Mephistofeles
21-01-2007, 19:39
It's just as simple: If the situation tells you to roll a one, and you roll a one, then off course you succeed.

Mordu22
21-01-2007, 21:40
What if the situation told me to roll 2? could I do that on 2d6 or am i only able to roll snake eyes on 2d6. They are the same thing i would think

Atrahasis
22-01-2007, 00:53
If it said "if you roll 2" then of course any dice roll resulting in 2 would be sufficient. However, you cannot roll "double 1" on 1 dice. "Double 1", as counter-intuitive as it seems, means "two ones on two dice" and not simply "2".

505
22-01-2007, 03:11
what if you roll a one and get a reroll of a one?

and why are they called apartments when they are all stuck together?

Yellow Commissar
22-01-2007, 03:18
Now I know why they called it insane courage.

DeathlessDraich
22-01-2007, 10:54
Re-read the thread. If I may Mordu22, I will rephrase the question

How is Rune of Determination used for Insane Courage?

..... yes, thats obvious.

Doesn't look obvious to me :D

So, is one able to pass a leadership test that requires a one? by rolling a one on 1d6?
I was wondering because the rules didn't state anything about it rolling better than a 2 (snake eyes) so it might not be part of the existing rules.

Exactly. This is not covered by the rules

Seriously...there is nothing wrong with asking if you have understood something correctly, but starting a discussion about it is another thing.
If something is not stated in the rulebook, then it does not exist. Simple as that. If the book says one thing, and no exceptions are given, then there are no exceptions.

This is a very valid discussion on Rune of Determination and Insane Courage.

The correct answer is by no means obvious neither is it covered by the rules.

It has been mentioned that a roll of 1 from Rune of Determination qualifies for Insane Courage.

This is an assumption and not a rule.

I would certainly grant a Dwarf player a dice roll at least to determine whether a '2' would qualify.

Atrahasis
22-01-2007, 11:47
You cannot roll a double 1 on one dice. Rune of Courage can be a disadvantage in a situation where the CR modifier to the Break Test exceeds the unit's Ld.

The rules are in no way unclear. "Insane Courage" does not deal with single-dice break tests and doesn't need to, it is worded in such a way as to make 2 dice the only way to roll insane courage.

Anything else is a house rule.

DeathlessDraich
22-01-2007, 13:28
The rule for Insane courage refers to Break tests which require 2 dice. It is not an independent test but linked to Break tests.

Rune of Determination also refers to Break tests but stipulates it must be done with 1 dice.

There is a conflict of rules.

Using your interpretation Atrahasis, Lizardmen can never be Insanely Courageous:D

Atrahasis
22-01-2007, 13:40
The rule for Insane courage refers to Break tests which require 2 dice. It is not an independent test but linked to Break tests.

Rune of Determination also refers to Break tests but stipulates it must be done with 1 dice.

There is a conflict of rules.No. Insane courage requires 2 1s. RoD precludes 2 1s. There is no conflict.

Using your interpretation Atrahasis, Lizardmen can never be Insanely Courageous:D
Yes they can, because their Ld test results are on 2 dice.

Festus
22-01-2007, 13:55
Yes they can, because their Ld test results are on 2 dice.
It is even easier for them, as they pick two out of three to be their Breaktest.

Festus

Mordu22
22-01-2007, 15:50
LOL...How do you roll "snake eyes" on three dice? I would think it is just as hard to do as roll snake eyes with one die. I really think that we have got to say that insane courage is a roll of 2 on a breaktest. "snake eyes" is a term which implies more than it is intended to, as it and rolling 2 on 2d6 are the same thing.

Atrahasis
22-01-2007, 16:01
Insane Courage requires TWO ONES on a Leadership test result. Cold Blooded leadserhip tests still give a result on 2 dice.

It is impossible to get two ones on one dice.

Reinnon
22-01-2007, 16:20
it is obvious, unless you can roll 2 ones on a single dice.... which is physically impossible

cold blooded still passes on 2 dice, you just roll 3 and remove one

you can not get snake eyes on rune of determination, therefore you can't get insane courage.

if you somehow do, you are either cheating or breaking the rules of physics

Griefbringer
22-01-2007, 16:21
Speaking of rolling 3D6, you can still roll "double 1's" - just have two dice each scoring 1, and the third die scoring a number between 2 and 6.

There is some similarity to miscast, though with insane courage you have to roll exactly two 1's, while for miscast it is sufficient to roll two _or more_ 1's.

DeathlessDraich
22-01-2007, 18:47
No. Insane courage requires 2 1s. RoD precludes 2 1s. There is no conflict.
Yes they can, because their Ld test results are on 2 dice.

You seem to be saying that Insane Courage is impossible for Rune of determination since it can only be achieved with 2 dice.

If Break tests are modified by adding or reducing the number of dice, then following your line of reasoning, Insane Courage cannot be granted.

Sorry, I still hold a different view.

1) Insane courage is an outcome of a Break test first and foremost and not a test of its own.
2) When the unit rolls two ones for a Break test, he has Insane courage.

The rules for Insane courage presupposes that 2 dice will be used for a Break Test. It makes no provisions for modified Break Tests or tests that require 1 dice and therefore it cannot be assumed that Insane Courage will not apply to a Break test on a 1 dice roll.

I see it (the single dice Break test) as an eventuality which the rules writers have failed to foresee and that is why I would allow maximum flexibility in its interpretation in a game.

Festus
22-01-2007, 18:58
Hi

No flexibility here: You must roll tow ones, nothing else. You cannot do so on 1 die, you need at least two dice to do so.

Festus

Griefbringer
22-01-2007, 19:09
I see it (the single dice Break test) as an eventuality which the rules writers have failed to foresee and that is why I would allow maximum flexibility in its interpretation in a game.

I do not think that any particular foresight was required - the new dwarf book was released well ahead of 7th edition rulebook.

I would say that the Rune of Determination is strong enough as it is, and there is no need to make it better by giving it a higher than normal chance of getting Insane Courage.

That said, in case the rules of the Rune of Determination do not explicitely allow it already, I would (as a house rule) let a dwarf player to not use the Rune of Determination for a particular break test (taking it as normal on 2D6 and thus gaining a chance to get Insane Courage). Others are of course free to make whatever other house rules they wish.

DeathlessDraich
22-01-2007, 19:15
Isn't that the problem?
What is it that you must do?

The only must is the Break test.

"If the result of a Break test from '2 dice is 2 ones' then the unit is Courageous."

What would you replace the words in italics with if one dice is used? You seem to be saying this:

"If the result of a Break test from '1 dice is any value' then the unit cannot be Courageous."

Is that truly correct?
Somehow I don't think so because the rules should have that statement ("If the result of a Break test from '1 dice is any value' then the unit cannot be Courageous.")

Since it does not I think a dice roll would be fair.

505
22-01-2007, 19:34
"If the result of a Break test from '1 dice is any value' then the unit cannot be Courageous."

you can be courageous ...just not insainly so :D

Atrahasis
22-01-2007, 23:03
You must roll double 1s to get Insane Courage. You cannot do that on one dice.

Make any house rules you want, but that's all they'll be. The rules are not in any way unclear.

DeathlessDraich
23-01-2007, 08:47
you can be courageous ...just not insainly so :D

Ah I see. 1 Dice roll of 1 to be Courageous and the other dice roll of 1 to be Insane.
Now it all makes sense. :D

Ok Atrahasis, I surrender to your repetitive answers. I shall roll 2 dice but if I get two ones I might be Insanely Contentious and persist with the debate! :D

marv335
23-01-2007, 10:01
i thought RoD was a one use only item.
you are not required to use it for a break test.
if this is the case (and i'm fairly sure it is, i just don't have my dwarf army book handy), where is the problem.
if the only way you can pass a break test is with IC, don't use the rune.
i fail to see how " insane courage occurs on a double one" can be interpreted any other way.

Mephistofeles
23-01-2007, 11:30
But holy ****, just lock this thread god damn it.

The rules say "You get insane courage on the roll of a double 1"

It's as simple as that. This is like discussing wether you hit on the roll of a 3 when the rules say you hit on 4+...