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Temmy
20-01-2007, 17:15
Anyone out there try these rules? I got them from a friend recently and tried out a game. It took a little getting used to, but after we got the hang of it, the system began to show its strengths.

1) The system is based troop/leader quality and confidence.

2) The system is based on activations. If a unit is activated the leader can perform two actions. Some actions can be performed twice. Certain actions need a confidence test to be rolled.

3) Certain actions require a communication roll between the two units. The success of the communication roll is affected by the troop/leader quality of the two units.

4) Higher level leaders can transfer activations to subordinate unit leaders. The success of this depends on a communication roll and how many levels of command are bypassed.

This is very useful, because a company commander can transfer both his actions to platoon leaders, who in turn can transfer both their actions to squad leaders, allowing four squads to take extra actions.

5) There are multiple levels of confidence. Confident, Steady, Shaken, Broken, Routed.

6) Suppression prevents a unit from doing much, but the better its troop/leader quality the more quickly it removes suppression.

7) There are no superheros. Officers who charge unaided into combat will die quickly.

Basically, the game is setup behind the premise that you use your troops to suppress enemy elements, while maneuvering your own unsuppressed elements from cover to cover into better positions. Units not in cover are in great danger of being suppressed and slaughtered.

The better your troops and leaders are, the more easily they will move and more quickly they recover from suppression and keep confidence. Leadership and morale are very important..crappy troops with a good leader will perform much better because they will be harder to keep suppressed, easier to communicate with and more easily perform actions. It’s very tactical and flowing.

RedKnightSpecial
21-01-2007, 00:16
I have heard about it...unfortunately i have never met anyone who played it. I would in a second.

Wonderdog
21-01-2007, 23:02
OMG... the forum just dropped two stupidly long posts of mine...

Right - super condensed -

GZG - Good points:-
Trully Excellent and unique rules
Really Cheap models (especially the 15mm stuff - 2.50 PER SQUAD!)
Quick to play
Full Thrust kicks BFG's ass - and is currently free to download

GZG - Bad points:-
only sell models directly
poor market presentation
No "army lists" or "points values" in SGII
Book lacks structure as a whole - needs a bit of a re-write to tidy it up
models are non-slotta molded bases (2p's to the rescue)

SGII is a system with a lot to offer, and works in a very different way to 40k etc. Unfortunately, GZG's lack of ambition in getting it more widely known holds it back.

#Wonderdog

chromedog
21-01-2007, 23:29
I've played it in the past, and still do, given the opportunity. Given that the guys I used to play it with now live half a country away, that isn't often.

I do have a large collection of SGII vehicles (mainly kra'vaak), which I used to VDR up 40k rules for. As the k-dudes use grav exclusively, and their favoured weapons are railgun types, they worked well as tau units for 40k.

If you've only ever played 40k, then the alternate unit activation sequence takes some getting used to (activate one unit, do everything with that unit, next unit, etc - not I-go, You-go), but the games move pretty quick once you get the rules understood.

Temmy
22-01-2007, 01:31
I'm going to download Dirtside, GZG's epic sized ruleset. Anyone have any experience with it?

Zink
22-01-2007, 04:28
I just came across GZG's stuff too. I heard of Full Thrust years ago but never tried it. I've downloaded everything I could and there's copies of Stargrunt on e-bay right now. I bought one. I'm studying rules and trying to decide if I have enough approximately proper sized minis to try dirtside. How big is a 1/300 tank? What size are the various ship classes for Full thrust?

Gen.Steiner
22-01-2007, 06:14
A 1/300 tank is an Epic tank - look at Epic scale Leman Russ or Land Raiders (or Baneblades for some of the larger ones) and note that Ground Zero Games (http://www.gzg.com) also sell civilian cars and trucks.

The Full Thrust ships are quite varied, and do remember that as it's spaceships scale is very flexible and that in reality the base is more important. Check their website, drop them an e-mail, Jon Tuffley is a very friendly chap!

Wonderdog, I must take issue with some of your 'Bad Points':

"only sell models directly" - what do you mean? They're a mail-order company much like any other in the wargames world. You can buy from them at conventions such as Salute! (http://www.salute.co.uk).

"poor market presentation" - well, not really that bad, they advertise in Wargames Illustrated, Miniature Wargames and also Battlegames. That's quite good... and their stand at Salute is always three deep in customers!

"No 'army lists' or 'points values' in SGII" - a damn good thing too if you ask me, points values and army lists are silly. All you need is a few men - about 24 in four squads of six for starters - and you're off. Platoon scale for Stargrunt is the best scale, but you can go to larger actions (I have a mechanised infantry company I've used a few times).

"models are non-slotta molded bases (2p's to the rescue)" - then use other figures if you don't like 'em. :p Unlike some companies, GZG doesn't say you can't play its games without GZG's figures. I base all mine on GW style plastic 25mm round bases purely so that they can be used interchangeably (see photo below) with GW figures and also troops from Urban Mammoth.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c51/GenSteiner/RenegadePDFroadblockattackedbyInqui.jpg
Above: GZG 'Hammer's Slammers' figures in the guise of PDF troopers supported by their light armoured vehicle and a truck are attacked by an Inquisitor and her followers.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c51/GenSteiner/Renegaderoadblockattackdifferentvie.jpg
Above: Same incident, different view - better picture of the GZG troops. EDIT: The Assassin with the sword in the black and white PVC with the red hair is produced by Hasslefree Miniatures (http://www.hasslefreeminiatures.co.uk) who are a fantastic company which I highly recommend.

Stargrunt II is an ace game, which produces a much more intelligent and tactical battle than 40K 4th Edition can.

Wonderdog
22-01-2007, 09:58
Relax Steiner! I too love Stargrunt, just pointing out some of the pitfalls that will likely be of concern to many players... balanced review and all that :D

GZG could really benefit from getting a distrobution channel to independents for thier stuff - especially Full Thrust which is both an awesome system and has a fabulous and wide range of very good models at great prices. A bit of store level visibility would do sales a world of good!

The reason that the stand is 3 deep at salute is that you cant look at/get thier stuff anywhere else but at the odd expo!

I have to disagree with the points value and basing though. The inclusion of a points value system would undoubtably make the game appeal more to a wider audience. Almost every other popular system has at least the option of a points system. I believe its important for "crossover" players.

The moulded bases are simply crap though - no question in my eyes - they are generally irregularly sized, and cut down on basing options for the model (witout significant greenstuff/milliputting to level a larger base). As I say, sticking them to 2p's as bases is the best option for the moment (doesnt make them look like thier on pedestals as much!) but I would love to see a slot approach adopted, and retrofitted to repressed molds as time progresses.

Just my 2c - Great game, but the model range/supplier does have some flaws ;)

#Wonderdog

Zink
22-01-2007, 20:24
Thanks, Gen. Steiner. I don't have epic but I've played it and can get ahold of some models for it. I was thinking of using pieces from my Axis and Allies and Fortress America games to start. They are to scale with each other and a bit smaller than epic stuff. I was considering modelling some vehicles myself and would like it if they came close in scale to what's on the market. I'm becoming a cheap skate budget gamer. That's why free rules and armies made from household junk amuses me.

AWu
22-01-2007, 22:09
i like Full thrust much

its one of 2 best ship systems on the market
(other is Starmada X)

i prefer fullthrust becouse of unique planed movement wich make it great
you plot speed changes and turns before each turn

and has shipbuilding rules

as to models
like in Gothic you measure from pin of the base so ship sizes are irrelewant really
but

Supercarrier superdreadnought measures around 10 cm
big battleship around 7 cm
cruiser 4-5 cm
and destroyer 3 cm

scarletsquig
30-01-2007, 11:08
I've played stargrunt once before using 40k catachan figures and a whole ton of terrain on the table (Like, 90% coverage). Quite an enjoyable rules system - easy to pick up, realistic. Fun game, wouldn't mind trying it out again, but probably won't buy any official figures for it.

And as for Salute... well, you get crushed whatever you do at that place :P

I've been to the gzg stall at other, more relaxed wargames conventions (tunbridge wells, crystal palace, etc.) and it's been nowhere near as crowded... enough time to have a chat with the guys at the stall and stuff.

Zink
30-01-2007, 23:46
Just got my Stargrunt II rules today. So now I've got the complete set. Stargrunt, dirtside and all the full thrust books. Just need to figure out how to play and get an opponent.

Zink
01-02-2007, 04:31
Does anyone know where I can find TO&E and stats for dirtside/stargrunt vehicles? I've been searching the net but haven't found anything concrete yet. Pics of models I can find but I'd like to see some examples of the vehicles abilities. I did find a stargrunt/40k conversion that means I can use my figures as is without changing anything.

jazzdude78
01-02-2007, 06:10
stargrunt.ca should have something on the site and/or a link to a good site

Gen.Steiner
01-02-2007, 10:05
Does anyone know where I can find TO&E and stats for dirtside/stargrunt vehicles? I've been searching the net but haven't found anything concrete yet. Pics of models I can find but I'd like to see some examples of the vehicles abilities. I did find a stargrunt/40k conversion that means I can use my figures as is without changing anything.

www.stargrunt.ca is always good, but the main point about Stargrunt II is that you create your own stats for vehicles. There's several pages in the rules about it. :)

RedKnightSpecial
03-02-2007, 01:15
Any way to locate players of this game? Doesn't seem to be forums on either of the sites you guys listed.

Gen.Steiner
03-02-2007, 03:12
Any way to locate players of this game?

Ask around. Try the forums on www.theminiaturespage.com, that's always a good bet.

Zink
03-02-2007, 04:42
Gen. Steiner, I understand about the joys of designing your own armies from the ground up. But I've got a small problem. I want to play dirtside this weekend but don't have any example vehicles. I'm working on making stats for my Renegade Legion tanks because they're approximately 1/285. But without playing the game it's kind of hard to design a tank. I don't know what's effective or necessary. I did find a website with ww2 stats so that's what I'll use until I get some more experience. I barely understand the rules so design is difficult. Stargrunt I'm not so worried about as we'll just go with a few well rounded squads and try out various weapons.

edit: After I wrote this and whined I found a site that had exactly what I wanted. Even used Renegade Legion tanks for his units.
http://home.comcast.net/~kudby/
Now I've got a start.

andymeechan
03-02-2007, 15:21
I love the dice shifts in the game - and that Quality levels are represented by colour. Something I use to tie the two together are buying polyhedrals in the appropriate colours, so:

D4 - Yellow / Untrained
D6 - Green / Green
D8 - Blue / Regular
D10 - Orange / Veteran
D12 - Red / Elite

Sped things up a little for me as you can select your Quality dice right away!

Andy