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ewar
22-01-2007, 12:52
Hi All,
The UK GT final is in 2 weeks and I'm trying to tweak my army. It's a 2k Bretonnian list, and obviously isn't as friendly as I would normally compose, so please forgive me if you think its cheesy! So far it is:

Duke = 438
+Hippogryph
+Grail Vow
+Virtue of Confidence
+Grail Shield
+Sword of the Ladies Champion

Paladin BSB = 116
+Barded warhorse
+Virtue of Duty
+Biting Blade


Lvl 1 Damsel = 129
+Scroll
+Chalice of Malfleur
+Barded warhorse

Lvl 1 Damsel = 105
+ Scroll
+ warhorse

9 Realm = 240
+full cmd

8 Realm = 241
+ full cmd (1 damsel will join)
+ warbanner

7 Errant = 181
+ full cmd
+ Errantry banner (BSB and damsel will join)

6 Errant = 120

3 Pegasus knights = 165

5 mounted yeomen = 82
+musician

2 trebuchets = 180

TOTAL = 1997

In the heats I had a sizeable contingent of peasants, but unfortunately they were a 500pt liability so they've been dropped in favour of the dreaded all cav list. I know, I know, it was something I swore I would never do; but having seen some of the frankly abusive lists at the heats I think this one is pretty friendly! A pure chariots and giants beast army was just one example!

What is everyones thoughts? Any glaring ommissions or mistakes?

The plan will be to get the pegasus knights and duke behind the enemy, take out artillery and then go character hunting while the lances perform a refused flank to concentrate on one point of the opposing lines.

thanks,
ewar

Danger Rat
22-01-2007, 13:03
Looks good and not cheesy in my humble my only concern would be the cost of your duke im not a big fan of spending almost a quarter of my army points on 1 character. Would putting him on a pegasus seriously dent his ablities in CC and could those points be better spent elswhere in the army. I don't know the bret book that well so can't really make any suggestions.

Anyway good luck at the final

ewar
22-01-2007, 13:17
I know what you mean about the points sink, and its normally something I avoid. In this case though, I wanted to have the terror causing against horde armies and also some way of combating all the huge monsters people take at the tournament. A pegasus, though cheaper, is much more fragile. I should point out though, that the Hippogyph benefits from the riders ward save, which in this case is 4+. So it becomes T5, 4+ ward, which should go some way to preventing him getting massacred by shooting. Plus, I don't have the pegasus hero model :)

mightymouse
22-01-2007, 13:21
To bad if you get a table with a building and your playing skaven or lizards for that matter.

Maldred2
22-01-2007, 13:52
Brettonian battle standard bearers can take a magical banner AND a magic weapon?

ewar
22-01-2007, 16:17
Damn, very good point! Cheers for pointing that out - you see? There is a point to posting lists on here! Consider the sword dropped.

Deathwatch
23-01-2007, 14:45
That *^&!@? chariot army bleonged to a fellow member of Team Homo, and it was awkward to fight as whatever you charged fled so you failed you charge and then the rest of the units could counter charge.
Bowmen did almost kill a giant though, hehe!
I thought general consensous was that the increased ward save from the shield didnt affect the mount?
But I'll back up what you said about the pegasus being a lot worse in CC than a Hippogriff. I took one and its just not hard enough.
Now, if the combined the profiles like in pegasus knights......

Jester007
23-01-2007, 16:42
For ward saves affecting mounts, unless the description of the item specifically states that the ward save is conferred on the mount, then they do not benefit from it.

The Wood Elf army book has the Crystal Mere talisman that specifically states that the 3+ ward save affects the character and any mount he is on. So for the Grail shield, if I am not mistaken, does not give the Hippogriff a 4+ ward save. Which leaves the flying thing all the more vulnerable to bolt throwers, fanatics, cannons, etc.

Sorry if this dissapoints you there ewar, but I didn't want you going into a tournament thinking one thing then having it blow up in your face ruining something you had planned on. At least now you have time to rethink on it and maybe make a few adjustments. That's all I got for now. Good luck in the GT!

Got Squig?

the lord
23-01-2007, 16:45
good luck too...and I am not sure about the ward save for mount and rider...was there some sort of controversy at last Heat/GT about something like this?

Count Zero
25-01-2007, 13:39
but does the basic blessing effect the mount? if the basic blessing does then wouldnt the shield as i thought it just improves the blessing.

ewar
25-01-2007, 14:20
Hi guys,
I'm absolutely certain that the ward affects the mount. Here is the wording (not exact as I don't have the book on me):

Blessing - the ward save conferred by the Blessing of any character affects their mount e.g. royal pegasus or hippogryph

Grail shield - the item increases the bearers Blessing to 4+ from any strength attack, lost as per normal Blessing rules.


Now, if anyone can detail any discrepancy I've missed, that seems perfectly clear cut to me. The grail shield doesn't give the character a unique ward save - it only INCREASES the power of the Blessing. Has there been a FAQ on this? I have never found one for Brets.

Does anyone disagree with this? I'd like to know before the GT!

cheers
ewar

kaptin_blacksquigg
25-01-2007, 14:51
Grail shield - the item increases the bearers Blessing to 4+ from any strength attack, lost as per normal Blessing rules.


Only "the bearer" has he's ward save increased, not the bearer and his mount. Magic items do not effect monsterious mounts, unless they specifically say they do.

Apart from that, solid list.
Best of Luck

Count Zero
25-01-2007, 15:00
but would the mount still get the 5/6+ ward save then?

Your Mum Rang
25-01-2007, 15:04
Hmm, I'm with Ewar on this. Generally it states that the riders blessing save transfers over to the mount. The shield makes the blessing stronger.

I'd say it gives the Hippo a better ward.

Atrahasis
25-01-2007, 15:05
Oh God.

There have been multiple 20 page+ threads about the Grail Shield since the Bret book was printed, never reaching a consensus.

I don't think there has been any clarification yet.

Danger Rat
25-01-2007, 15:13
Looking at the wording I'd have to go with ewar on this one and would have no problems with that explanation if it was shown to me before or during the game at a gt or any other tourney.

Ewar I take your point over the hypogriff Id forgotten they cause terror and with that ward save your lord should have quite a lot of fun!

ewar
25-01-2007, 15:25
Cheers for the info guys. I've not seen any discussion about the grail shield before, so when I came up with the combo thought I was onto a winner. Tbh, I'm very accomodating when it comes to discussing rules with my opponent, but in this instance I just can;t see where the 'grey' area is. If we take RAW, then the mount gets the increased ward. I'm certain it isn't specified anywhere in the rule book that magic items 'only affect' the bearer - its left to each item to clarify.

Hopefully, it'll give him enough punch to counter some of the serious characters out there. Chaos tzeentch lord on dragon, I'm looking at you.

I'll post a round up of how it goes (went?) after the weekend - I'm praying it will be triumphant, if not, I'm sure I'll have learnt a few things!

MarcoPollo
25-01-2007, 15:57
If you are concerned about the all chariot beast army. You should know that the chariots come with the mark of undivided making them better to stave off terror causing monsters.

You should also realize that when undivideds flee, the re-roll from undivided does not allow them to re-roll rally tests(or break tests for that matter). It is a fine point that many players forget/don't know.

I too am thinking the same as ewar on the grail shield. This makes the monster pretty nasty. For 400+ points it should be.

I think that a small 10 man contingent of peasents worth 50 pts may really help your soft scores.

ffarsight
25-01-2007, 16:10
As i see it all characters and knights gets the blessing, soo its a area effect by the prayers, this confer the save to the Character and is passed to the Hippogryph, but just as it is, 5/6+ ward save.
Then the Grail Shield effect joins the blessing of the bearer and modifies it to a better save, but the blessing of the mount is already there so it canīt be changed.

Your Mum Rang
25-01-2007, 16:28
The blessing on the rider is already there. Then it gets upgraded.

pcgamer72
25-01-2007, 18:24
Seems pretty clear to me as well that the mount gets the IMPROVED ward save as well. I've played against this once before and this is how my opponent said it goes and I agreed. Even if it's not set in stone, I think most of your opponents will give that to you.

ewar
26-01-2007, 08:14
As i see it all characters and knights gets the blessing, soo its a area effect by the prayers, this confer the save to the Character and is passed to the Hippogryph, but just as it is, 5/6+ ward save.
Then the Grail Shield effect joins the blessing of the bearer and modifies it to a better save, but the blessing of the mount is already there so it canīt be changed.

The trouble is, the mount has no blessing of its own - if the rider were to die, the mount would lose its ward save. The point is, the mount uses the riders ward save, ergo if his ward save is increased then so is the mounts. Remember, the Grail Shield does not give a ward save, it modifies an existing one, hence the lower cost. Thanks for the input though.
I think I'm going to stick with this set up and will have to 'discuss' it with opponents if they don't agree!

As for the comment on soft scores - there aren't any at this tournament, its all 'for the win' so to speak. Personally, I'd prefer to have them, as I think it encourages more interesting armies!

As for the all chariot beast army, I personally didn't play the guy, but my friend did and I don't think his woodies faired very well! My dreaded opponents are the tzeentch power army (all 17 models of it) and tomb kings, as I just lack experience against them.

Deathwatch
26-01-2007, 14:13
crap wish I'd never mentioed anything!
Best thing to do is mail or ring the GW Events team.
events@games-workshop.co.uk
or give them a Call (might have to go through mail order but that is within insulting distance of the events team!)
Lets face it at the end of the day its best to check as what we think on here will probably have very little to do wiht the great and mighty being that is GW rules! (and I'm fairly sure my pegasus didnt get the increase!)

Danger Rat
26-01-2007, 14:21
I agree sticck with the set up and if the situation comes up discuss it with the player and if needs be call a ref. good luck and i look forward to reading your report one of thes days i might even qualify!

ewar
26-01-2007, 17:45
crap wish I'd never mentioed anything!
Best thing to do is mail or ring the GW Events team.
events@games-workshop.co.uk
or give them a Call (might have to go through mail order but that is within insulting distance of the events team!)
Lets face it at the end of the day its best to check as what we think on here will probably have very little to do wiht the great and mighty being that is GW rules! (and I'm fairly sure my pegasus didnt get the increase!)

cheers for the advice deathwatch, and I don't want to seem to cynical, but any info from GW tends to be a bit hit and miss! ;) I think their staff have less consensus than warseer!
I'm going to risk it, and see if individual opponents have problems and try and deal with them on a case by case basis. I'll bore everyone with how it goes in two weeks.