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Shinguuji
23-01-2007, 05:10
Seems like they're not really good in WHFB, not much direct use, but mainly for support. Also, most people complain about them anyway, since the beginning of 6th ed.

A cool article can be found here :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalanx_formation
Kinda describes WHFB's ranks, etc. It also gives ideas of how to cure the problem for heavy infantry, either up their save(shield formation), or remove charge bonuses, since its as good as charging spikes. Also, another good one is adding more CR for heavy infantry, maybe +1 CR for heavy infantry? Its like a pushing match in the end, and the ones with the thicker armour and stronger push wins in the end.

Sadly, this is not to happen, so another question is this, how do you make use of your heavy infantry? Seems like many are not to pleased with the black orcs. I also want to see how to use Chaos warriors, they're so pretty, but has little value compared to the rest

Neknoh
23-01-2007, 05:13
Oh, so my Chaos Warriors that don't really need it will get a boost whilst my Black Guard won't even get to think of boosting?

Mephistofeles
23-01-2007, 11:16
I use Greatswords as heavy infantry, and they sometimes work well. I use them by slamming them headlong into weak and soft targets, and just let them cut through the easy stuff while my regular troops grind to a halt and start the pushing game with my opponents heavy stuff.

Using heavy infantry versus heavy infantry is a waste of havy infantry, so to speak...

northwoodDreamer
23-01-2007, 11:59
From a Dwarf perspective heavy infantry work just fine. Iron Breakers obviously have a superb save but my Hammerers, Longbeards, Miners, and Warriors all get their jobs done just fine. When I used to play Vampire Counts my Grave Guard also usually did quite well for themselves. Chaos Warriors are beasts and IMO don't need another +1 CR. They are quite powerful enough already. Admittedly, I love facing Black Orcs because I find them very easy to kill, but my buddy gives them two hand weapons which only allows a 5+ save. For heavy infantry to be worth it, they need at least a 4+ save. Poor Elves...

Hywel
23-01-2007, 12:14
Heavy infantry suffer somewhat in fantasy due to the importance of static CR and the price they have to pay for it. Empire halberdiers can get an extra rank for 25pts, chaos warriors can't even get two men for that.

So you have to find ways around this. Investing a lot of points in the unit is certainly one way, but then you're looking at a unit in the 3-400pt mark that moves 4" with restricted LOS and limited maneouverability. It is easily baited or avoided and the investment probably means you don't have enough units to prevent it being tagteamed.

More effectively you need to maximise the units CR through other means. Increasing the number of attacks through additional hand weapons is a great option for chaos warriors at least. Other troop types such as greatswords, bestigor and hammerers have the job done for them with default great weapons which makes their hits more reliable to result in kills. Furthermore most heavy infantry has access to magical banners and a war banner is a great way to even out the cost of ranks.

Then you have to apply them against the right targets. Receiving a cavalry charge is not what you want to see happening. Going toe-to-toe with lighter infantry units is ideal provided you have the ability to stick around until the enemy's ranks are under control. This is where BSB's and generals work together well with heavy infantry who normally have a highish Ld of their own aswell.

So they indeed have their uses and are pointed effectively for when used correctly. The problem is being able to use them the way you want and not have them dealt with the way the enemy would like - but then isn't that true of all units in warhammer?

I think any 'fixes' or boosts to their ability are unwarranted. I'll readily concede heavy infantry is more difficult to use than cheap horde infantry, but not to the point of redundancy.

Lieutenant Frederic Henry
23-01-2007, 15:08
Be glad it's not still 5th edition. Heavy armor used to cost you a point of movement. Reiksguard FootKnights had the awesome charge range of 6 inches.
Cheers.

Keller
23-01-2007, 15:37
Heavy infantry aren't so bad, it's all about how you match them up on the field. Many units of heavy infantry also benefit from special rules, such as the Imperial Greatswordsmen' Stubborn rule, or the Black Guard's Eternal Hatred. These skills help the units make up for a lack of static combat resolution created from their high points cost.

chivalrous
23-01-2007, 15:39
One of the biggest factors in the inefficiency of Heavy infantry, well elite infantry in general, is that you have to pay an arm and a leg to build up your rank bonus, but otherwise these models aren't contributing anything else to the unit. Black Guard at 16 points a model would be a good example.

I don't ever see it happening but one way to address this would be to buy units in a similar way to regiments of renown.
Basically all units have a compulsory mimimum number. Obviously the full points cost would be charged for this mimimum unit (maybe even slightly overcosted as a balance for what comes next) This wouldn't include command or equipment upgrades. Any models bought in excess of the minimum number would be at a lower cost per model (50% to 75% of the per model cost of the minimum unit). per model upgrades would be bought once you've bought your unit.

So using Black Guard as an example.
Currently you have to have a minimum unit size of 10 models and pay 16 points per model, with command opitions of Champ:14, Std:14, Musc:7.

I propose that you pay 170 points for a naked unit of 10 black guard models, with an option to buy more models at a cost of say 9 to 12 points per model. Command model upgrades would cost the same.

If I'm honest though, heavy and elite infantry should really be used as support units, with your core infantry taking the brunt of the enemy, tarpiting them for a counter attack.

Mephistofeles
23-01-2007, 16:10
That suggestion has been up before, and I think it's a good one, although I don't see it incorporated in the game in any good way, I get "old-edition-vibes" from the whole idea.

Also, there is the problem of survivability. The "back-rank-soldiers" have to be priced in relation too how hard they are to kill, and not how hard they fight...this would lead to some really awkward situations I think...

Hobgoblyn
23-01-2007, 17:22
I understand it is frustrating to be beaten out by static CR, but you have to keep in mind it is also frustrating to have 40-60 light troops in a unit and having to have them fight in 5 perfectly straight rows and only getting credit for the first 20 despite the fact that they are running into super-powerful killing machines that prevent them from being able to fight back.

As long as we are still fighting unrealistically in ranks, Heavy Infantry has a HUGE advantage. Should we try fighting 40K style so that each if your Chaos Warriors gets jumped on by 8 goblins each in a turn? Because that is what the static CR is meant to represent.