PDA

View Full Version : so what would be a ranger themed force?



ashc
23-01-2007, 09:54
Just some thing im throwing around in my head.

I really like those new plastic rangers and wondered whether a full ranger force was viable and what it would have in it?

thanks to any replies

Ash

Dspankdo
23-01-2007, 10:23
Very viable, the rangers have good armour(for scouting troops) and can be equiped with spears and bows. Along with some dunedain and aragorn(and possibly legolas) they are quite effective.

TheOne1985
23-01-2007, 11:12
A full grey company force is very good but only for a rule... they can put how many archers they want, without respecting the 33% bows.

I mean with some big heroes like aragorn legolas with few dunedain and ranger, it is a pretty good army, but using only dunedain it comes out a vary anisportive and boring army consisting in

12 denedain
24 ranger with bow and spear
24 ranger with bow

a full bow force with 60 arrows per turn... 3+ hit and 6+ wound ... i hope i never see this army on the tourneament ;)

and i hope that this special rule for the grey company will be remouved

Dspankdo
23-01-2007, 11:16
I don't think the rule needs to be removed but players have to learn not to abuse it, like the iron warriors in 40k.

TheOne1985
23-01-2007, 14:19
Yes but... how many 40k Iron Warrior's bg army do you see in a tourneament... zero!

So better remove this rule before that in every tournement everyone have his own mono shooting good list ;)

brettz123
23-01-2007, 14:27
I don't think the rule needs to be removed but players have to learn not to abuse it, like the iron warriors in 40k.

If a game specifically allows you to do something you can hardly call it "abusing the rule". The rule was meant to let you do that in the first place. And that is why it needs to be removed. Are you actually going to tell someone who is following the rules that they are "abusing the rules"? Talk about poor sportsmanship.......

hiveminion
23-01-2007, 15:21
Just some thing im throwing around in my head.

I really like those new plastic rangers and wondered whether a full ranger force was viable and what it would have in it?

thanks to any replies

Ash

I think it is viable, I mean, good archers, good fight value, their only real weakness is low defence.

Army composition would depend on what kind of Rangers you're going to use. Wil you do an army of Rangers of Gondor, Grey Company or Dunedain?

Naturally the bulk of the force will be the Rangers themselves, but to prevent your army from becoming cheese without meaning to (ie, all-archers), I'd recommend to give the army a low model count by adding lots of Heroes. That way the number of shots you put out a turn isn't too high and the force is still fluffy.

ashc
23-01-2007, 15:35
I think it is viable, I mean, good archers, good fight value, their only real weakness is low defence.

Army composition would depend on what kind of Rangers you're going to use. Wil you do an army of Rangers of Gondor, Grey Company or Dunedain?

Naturally the bulk of the force will be the Rangers themselves, but to prevent your army from becoming cheese without meaning to (ie, all-archers), I'd recommend to give the army a low model count by adding lots of Heroes. That way the number of shots you put out a turn isn't too high and the force is still fluffy.

thanks for that Hiveminion; i have been out of the loop on lotr for a good while now (last was when they released return of the king) so i have no idea on the different rangers; i just like the new plastics!

i was looking at doing 500pts of rangers and then 500pts evil; easterlings.

Ash

hiveminion
23-01-2007, 15:55
Well if you're doing Easterlings I'd go for Rangers of Gondor, they often fight each other and it'll allow you to theme the force around each other, if you like that.

Throw in Heroes like Faramir and ... erm... the other two Ithilien Heroes whose name I've temporarily forgotten...

Problem is that means a force with 100% bows which isn't allowed so that means you'll have to add something else like Warriors of Minas Tirith.

If you want pure Rangers then Grey Company seems to be best since they apparantly are allowed to have 100% bows.

Of course you can always use your Rangers with the Grey Company rules, yet still make the army Ithilien by adding Faramir etc. It's not entirely legal I believe but LotR allows quite some freedom when it comes to army composition and I don't think a lot of people'll complain about it.

Gondorian
23-01-2007, 20:55
You could legally do the above. You take a grey company army with Dunedain/Rangers of the North and ally Ithilien heroes such as Faramir. Fluff wise you are using the arnor rangers as ithilien rangers and the Dunedain to represent small srgt. like heroes which given the independant nature of Ithilien forces is not unlikely. I'd have no problems with the theme of such an army.

Viability wise, a staff member at my local GW is currently using a ranger army and it is very good. I've fought it twice now and lost twice however my last game was pretty close. My friend has also faced this army and was beaten very badly. The guy does use a 100% bow armed force but he also plays fairly. By that I mean that while he could legally keep moving his army back getting the maximum number of shots he doesn't. He'll shoot a lot but he'll also make a few charges or leave his men in places where they can be charged so the games do get interesting and fun.
This 100% bow rule could and probably will see a lot of abuse at tourneys. Atleast it is tempered by the fact that more expensive Dunedain are needed to use it. I also feel that a ranger army would be fully armed with bows anyway so it is a good compromise. It becomes a problem in the hands of someone who wants to win and cares about nothing else.

Anyway, it is a very powerful force but does suffer from low armour. It can make for some really fun games depending on how each player plays the game.

Dspankdo
24-01-2007, 01:15
If a game specifically allows you to do something you can hardly call it "abusing the rule". The rule was meant to let you do that in the first place. And that is why it needs to be removed. Are you actually going to tell someone who is following the rules that they are "abusing the rules"? Talk about poor sportsmanship.......


Alot of the rules produced by GW are broken, theres just no argument about it. When people make army lists that exploit these rules knowing full well that they are making an unfair army we call this abusing the rules(or cheese for short). A good sportsman makes an army that is competitive but has not been created purely to win but to have fun(its a game after all) and I personally only like to play good sportsmans. If the rules were perfect then there would be no need for discretion, but nothing is perfect so we have to do with what we have.

TheOne1985
24-01-2007, 11:32
A good sportsman makes an army that is competitive but has not been created purely to win but to have fun(its a game after all)

Quote!
But how many people do it? I think they they are less than the "unfairy" player, for example on the last italian GT there where 3 or 4 unfairy army and one of this was compesed by 9 spider queen ... this is an abuse! A spider queen is a very strong model, fast and powerful... moltiplicate it for 9... is just an army to win easy and unfairy.
I think that the same thing will happen with the grey company!:mad:

ashc
24-01-2007, 11:47
thanks for the replies.

So, who are the grey company? where have they popped up from? In fact, i could probably do with a little refresher on who the 3 groups of rangers are; I know of the gondorian rangers, but dunedain and grey company im not up on.

In certainly not an unfair player nor am I out to all-out win. I like the sound of Hiveminion's suggestion of a hero-based force with ranger support, sounds like fun.

Is there any light cavalry option open to a ranger force? Perhaps i am thinking along the wrong lines with that; i suppose it may be more in the realm of Rohan.

finally, if i went down the route of either of my 3 options, what book(s) will i require? Does the current core book cover everything, or do i need the supplements?

Thanks

Ash

WH40KAj
24-01-2007, 12:04
for example on the last italian GT there where 3 or 4 unfairy army and one of this was compesed by 9 spider queen ... this is an abuse! A spider queen is a very strong model, fast and powerful... moltiplicate it for 9... is just an army to win easy and unfairy.
I think that the same thing will happen with the grey company!:mad:

I'm sorry but I stand on GW's side in both examples you have mentioned here. Sure in 40k and Fantasy there are things which I see as abuse to rules, or GW has got wrong.

However 9 spider queens in my opinion isn't an abuse, they've taken 9 queens, yet look at the cost points wise, plus their model count is low; break the army and watch the spider queens disappear. Spider queens though being monstruos mounts, have low attacks- charge them first. I can see many ways of beating this army, I'm not saying it would be easy- im saying its plausable.

And more importantly, for the grey company you are forgetting that bows have low strength, usually needing 6's to hit D5 (armoured) guys. Even 30-40 bows will be hard pushed to kill more than 5-6 models a turn. Whats more unless you take a powerful hero to support the rangers of arnor/north/gondor, then they don't all have particularly good chance in combat, particularly when mobbed. Getting into combat also holds up and blocks shooting. Plenty of problems if you ask me.

What you are complaining about is not infact "abuse" of rules, but specific armies that need specific preparation to fight; and that my friend makes these lists legitimate, uncheesy and fair.

My two cents,
WH40KAj

Dspankdo
24-01-2007, 12:41
But thats just it, you need preparation to play the army, an un-cheesy force consists of a list that can be faced by any reasonable well rounded army and still be a close game. In 40k it's also easy to beat Iron warriors with prep. But that doesn't make the 9 oblit list any less cheesy. And by the way against evil armies a maxed out Grey Company will be killing more in the range of 10-14 models a turn. As s3 will wound d5 guys on a 5+.

By the by ash I think the hero heavy force is a good choice as well(and its easy to paint as well).

Edit:as for the books you will need legions of middle earth, the main rulebook and possibly the fall of arnor supplement.

Edit 2:The Dunedain are basically Aragorns tribal group. And the Grey company are the rangers in the lost kingdom of arnor.

TheOne1985
24-01-2007, 12:45
Maybe you don t understand how to play 9 spider queen... its a vry powerful army, 90% unbeatable, i try and played it too and i see by myself that is vey strong.

Howerver grey company is the best army look at my grey company list in the second post of this topic... they are 60 bow... hit 3+ and wound 6+ matemathically 6 wounds per turn, than in close combat they are 60 pieces with fight skill 4, spers and 12 dunedain with strenght 4 and many might point... i mean this army is unbeatable even in the shootingphase than in the close combat phase!

Isn t it?

Gondorian
24-01-2007, 16:09
No army is unbeatable. If it were what would happen when the spider queen army fought the ranger army? It wouldn't always be a draw.
The ranger army can be abused however so can an army of rohan outriders and personally I'd find the ranger army easier and with better theme.
The 9 spider queen army I dislike because I just don't see nine queens fighting together. Bring two together and they'd probably kill each other for control of the lesser spiders.

In regard to cavalry in this army, rangers of the north can be mounted on horseback. You'd have to make some conversions or place some horses next to the ranger models but it would add some variation to your army and possibly make it more interesting.

ashc
24-01-2007, 16:25
thanks Dspankdo and Gondorian, that is excellent to know.

So, Core rulebook, legions of middle-earth, fall of arnor? excellent.

If people want to argue over the 'power' of 'beardy' forces in lotr then please create a new topic on it in this forum; my thread is not the place for it :)

and Gondorian, yes, I am especially interested in some mounted ranger conversions :)

Ash

WH40KAj
24-01-2007, 16:45
Maybe you don t understand how to play 9 spider queen... its a vry powerful army, 90% unbeatable, i try and played it too and i see by myself that is vey strong.

Howerver grey company is the best army look at my grey company list in the second post of this topic... they are 60 bow... hit 3+ and wound 6+ matemathically 6 wounds per turn, than in close combat they are 60 pieces with fight skill 4, spers and 12 dunedain with strenght 4 and many might point... i mean this army is unbeatable even in the shooting phase than in the close combat phase!

Isn t it?

No army is unbeatable. Calvary would have a field day against it, as would high defence armies once combat ensued. If the Mumak was there, bye bye your army. What I will agree on in priniciple both your examples go against the spirit of tolkiens universe, in particular the spider queen one. But rules wise- nah, they are fair in my opinion. The actual question should be focusing on whether Grand Tournaments should bring in rules to prevent armies like the spider queen one.
I don't want to upset anyone, but remember it is a hobby and when you go to a tournament you know people will take their best forces. The diversity, uniqueness and (in some cases) brute strength of armies be just a few of the types you will have to face. You should just go to have fun and do your best.

Over and Out
WH40KAj

TheOne1985
24-01-2007, 16:49
For mounted ranger you can start from a mounted haradrim, cause of their cloak, you have to change their head and their weapon, or you can also use rohan cavalry,cutting to the middle a rohan knight and a ranger than put together the lower part of rohirrim and the higher part of the ranger, then u havo to use green stuff to cover union traits

Gondorian
24-01-2007, 21:43
There is one scenario in LOME that is perfect for evening up the odds against completely bow armed armies. That is: Ill met by moonlight, special rule: all shooting is reduced to 12inch range although such attacks get plus one to wound. In this scenario you will get a lethal volly once you're close but atleast you'll not be completely wittled away before you are any where near combat.

For mounted rangers the simplest way would be to put a foot model next to a riderless horse. It doesn't look as good but you can't always convert everything. Not that I'm an expert at modeling or anything, but I'd be tempted to use riders of rohan. A leg swap could work, like the elnaith from white dwarf or resculpting the uper body like adding cloth veils over the mouth.
I found one example of such a conversion here: http://www.thelastalliance.com/index.php?pid=disparticle&catid=10&subid=74&artilceid=2960

Best of luck.

TheOne1985
25-01-2007, 00:41
For mounted rangers the simplest way would be to put a foot model next to a riderless horse

I just don t like it... i prefer to have only one model. I make sono Haradrim riders with the same method that I write upper (lower body of a rider of rohan and higher of an haradrim) and i work very well and is very simple to do!

brettz123
25-01-2007, 14:07
There is one scenario in LOME that is perfect for evening up the odds against completely bow armed armies. That is: Ill met by moonlight, special rule: all shooting is reduced to 12inch range although such attacks get plus one to wound. In this scenario you will get a lethal volly once you're close but atleast you'll not be completely wittled away before you are any where near combat.

For mounted rangers the simplest way would be to put a foot model next to a riderless horse. It doesn't look as good but you can't always convert everything. Not that I'm an expert at modeling or anything, but I'd be tempted to use riders of rohan. A leg swap could work, like the elnaith from white dwarf or resculpting the uper body like adding cloth veils over the mouth.
I found one example of such a conversion here: http://www.thelastalliance.com/index.php?pid=disparticle&catid=10&subid=74&artilceid=2960

Best of luck.

With the new plastic ones coming out you may be able to do a simple swap with a rohan mounted warrior by cutting the legs off of the ranger and the body off of the rider of rohan. Not sure it will work but would be interesting to try. Anyone know if they are going to make mounted rangers?

Gondorian
25-01-2007, 20:00
I just don t like it... i prefer to have only one model. I make sono Haradrim riders with the same method that I write upper (lower body of a rider of rohan and higher of an haradrim) and i work very well and is very simple to do!

Fair enough, just putting ideas out.

ashc
27-01-2007, 16:32
Thanks to everyone for the input; I had a look at the ruin of arnor book today and the recent WD and so I have decided to go for a Grey Company force. for 500pts I was looking at:

20 Rangers
5 Rangers of the North
Arathorn
Halbarad

and that takes me to 430pts. Now, with the extra points I could get another Ranger of the North and 4 more Rangers, but was thinking of a 3rd character; would someone like Gildor suit this? I dont really know background or anything, i just know he is an elven ranger with links to the dunedain; i have no idea of what his rules are like either, so i cant say anything on points costs either (bad i know)

thoughts?

Ash

Gondorian
27-01-2007, 18:23
Adding Gildor will practically make it identical to a force that a staff member I know uses. So far he has had great sucess with this list, Gildor comes in handy as his magic is useful and adds another aspect to your army, he's fairly good for his points cost.

ashc
27-01-2007, 18:56
is gildor in the core rulebook or do i need a different sourcebook for his rules?

thanks Gondorian, you have been a massive help.

Ash

WH40KAj
27-01-2007, 19:06
is gildor in the core rulebook or do i need a different sourcebook for his rules?

thanks Gondorian, you have been a massive help.

Ash

I had roughly the same problem. I wanted additional might, combined with a decent fight (6), this had to be near the points cost i had. I took haldir and sacrificed some spears to give him bow and armour. Though he's strictly not grey company, aragorn did spend a fair bit of time around the elves, mainly of the woodland/rivendell. In this respect I found Haldir variable.

Gildor is a good choice too however.

Over and Out,
WH40kAj

ashc
27-01-2007, 19:09
thanks for the responses. Whats the difference between a Ranger of The North and a Dunedain? I see they have seperate points costs.... i thought they were one in the same thing :confused:

Anyway, these were the two forces I am considering (500pts.) what do you think?

Arathorn
Halbarad
Gildor
5 Dunedain
20 Rangers
500pts.

-or-

Arathorn
Halbarad
6 Rangers of the North with Spears
24 Rangers, 8 with Spears
496pts.

Ash

WH40KAj
27-01-2007, 19:26
thanks for the responses. Whats the difference between a Ranger of The North and a Dunedain? I see they have seperate points costs.... i thought they were one in the same thing :confused:

Anyway, these were the two forces I am considering (500pts.) what do you think?

Arathorn
Halbarad
Gildor
5 Dunedain
20 Rangers
500pts.

-or-

Arathorn
Halbarad
6 Rangers of the North with Spears
24 Rangers, 8 with Spears
496pts.

Ash


I'd take the second list myself. Rangers are better as for the additional point they have a better defence. They are really otherwise, the same in game terms.

ashc
27-01-2007, 19:46
thanks WH40KAj; For one point that is a big difference; im leaning towards the second list too to be honest.

Ash

Dspankdo
27-01-2007, 21:50
There is no difference between Dunedain and rangers of the north. Dunedain simply represent the entire race of good Numenor. Including the Dunedain in the south(faramir is Dunedain) and the rangers of the north are those that belong to the grey company.

Gondorian
27-01-2007, 22:55
Actually, I think the rule book refers to Rangers of the North as having defence 5 and cost 25pts. Dunedain have defence 4 and are 24pts. I'm not sure if Dunedain can choose to be mounted like the rangers of the north can.

They are the same people, Ranger of the North in the game I think refers to the grey company assembled for all out war. The dunedain, again for game purposes, represent the grey company doing buisness as usual ie. protecting the shire, killing wargs and orcs etc.

The stats for Gildor are in The fall of the necromancer, I think.

Both lists are good, choose which ever one you think you'll enjoy more.

Dspankdo
28-01-2007, 04:08
Actually, I think the rule book refers to Rangers of the North as having defence 5 and cost 25pts. Dunedain have defence 4 and are 24pts. I'm not sure if Dunedain can choose to be mounted like the rangers of the north can.



I was talking about their in universe significance.

Catferret
28-01-2007, 10:58
The stats for Gildor are in The fall of the necromancer, I think.

His stats are in The Fellowship of the Ring Supplement.

Gondorian
28-01-2007, 11:07
I was talking about their in universe significance.

I know. I was just saying that there is a difference in game purposes. despite the difference they are pretty much the same anyway.

And yes Gildor is not in TFoTN, he's in the fellowship of the ring supplement. Sorry for misleading anyone.