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Uraithen
23-01-2007, 14:54
OK... I don't think many of you will like this list since it contains a black dragon and because I've put so much points in to one model. This is the reason though: "Black Dragon: ...Only the greatest lords amongst the Dark Elves ride to battle atop one of these monsters which, even alone, have the power to break the back of an army."
So... I've just had to come up with a list that could make a dragon do just this. Since The lord must be protected to all cost I had to put this much points into him and also give him some hitting power. The rest is pretty easy... Magic defence: 2 lvl 2 Sorceresses to try and dispel most harmful spells against the lord and hopefully get some unseen lurkers off to guide some of the armys bigger monsters in to the right position. The army would naturally be a little poor on models so I put most of the points in to shooting and disrupting units that can thin out numbers and cause some chaos amongst the opposing players battle line while my dragon lord does what he does and the chariots and hydra pick up the left overs or strollers. Here goes!

Highborn with Black Dragon mount (572 pts):
Repeating Crossbow
Sea Dragon Cloak
Shield
Heart-stone of Darkness (4+ Ward Save)
Blood Armour (improves the armour save by 1 after each CC-kill).
Crimson Death (Always strike with S6, two handed).

Lvl 2 Sorceress with Dark Steed mount (192pts):
Seal of Ghrond (+1 die to dispel pool)
Dispel Scroll

Lvl 2 Sorceress with Dark Steed mount (192pts):
Darkstar Cloak (+1 power die to the wearer).
Lifetaker (a Repeating Crossbow that always hits one 2+ and re-roll failed rolls to wound).


5 Dark Riders (120pts):
Repeating Crossbows

5 Dark Riders (120pts):
Repeating Crossbows

10 Warriors (115pts):
Musican
Repeating Crossbows


2 Cold One Chariots (194pts):
Spears

1 Royale Warhydra (255pts):
2 Beastmaster apprentices

2 Reaper Bolt Throwers (200pts)

Total point cost: 2000

Ok give it to me!

northwoodDreamer
23-01-2007, 15:31
Highborn with Black Dragon mount (572 pts):
Repeating Crossbow
Sea Dragon Cloak
Shield
Heart-stone of Darkness (4+ Ward Save)
Blood Armour (improves the armour save by 1 after each CC-kill).
Crimson Death (Always strike with S6, two handed).

Love it.



Lvl 2 Sorceress with Dark Steed mount (192pts):
Seal of Ghrond (+1 die to dispel pool)
Dispel Scroll

Lvl 2 Sorceress with Dark Steed mount (192pts):
Darkstar Cloak (+1 power die to the wearer).
Lifetaker (a Repeating Crossbow that always hits one 2+ and re-roll failed rolls to wound).

Lifetaker is a waste of points. If you want them to be purely magic defense (not a bad idea) dump the steeds and level 2's also. With your list you need to look to save as many points as possible.



5 Dark Riders (120pts):
Repeating Crossbows
5 Dark Riders (120pts):
Repeating Crossbows
10 Warriors (115pts):
Musican
Repeating Crossbows

Dump the musician.



2 Cold One Chariots (194pts):
Spears

Good.



1 Royale Warhydra (255pts):
2 Beastmaster apprentices
2 Reaper Bolt Throwers (200pts)
Total point cost: 2000
Ok give it to me!

The Bolt Throwers don't fit with the list. Dump them in favor of two units of COK. If you dump the Bolt Throwers and make the Soceresses just defensive it should give you enough points for two units of 5 COK which would fit in well this army. If possible, give them Standards... then if you still have points champions. Use your speed, you should never have a unit charging another unit by itself. Harpies might also have use in this list, but I don't know where you would find the points/how you would fit them in. Just so you know, I really love the idea. Good luck!!!

The SkaerKrow
23-01-2007, 20:20
It's an interesting list. I'm not a fan of Dragons, but I've heard of them being used effectively in Dark Elf armies. Pointers...

Running your Sorceresses on Dark Steeds is an interesting prospect, but don't put them in your Dark Rider units. I've punished opponents in the past that choose to run characters in units that are fragile and easy to Panic. A single volley of Longbows, a Repeater/Reaper Bolt Thrower, Handguns, etc, and you're Sorceress might just follow the Dark Riders 3D6" right off the back of your own table edge. If you're going for dedicated Magic Defense consider dropping them to Level 1 and loading up on Scrolls (3 Scrolls and the Seal of Ghrond, to be exact). The Lifetaker is an interesting choice, but you're better off without it. I'd drop it for a Scroll.

I love Cold One Chariots, but they don't congeal well with the rest of the speed in your list. Remember, CoCs are only Movement 7, and can't march. They're actually among the slowest units in the Dark Elf army, and work best when supporting our infantry.

Unlike northwood, I actually see great potential in your RBTs. Your list essentially has no Static CR to speak of, so it'll be imperative for you to try to whittle down some ranks bonuses from your opponent's units early on. RBTs can do this reliably and at extreme range, Repeater Crossbows cannot.

All in all it seems like an interesting list, though it'll take quite a bit of practice to master. Good luck.

northwoodDreamer
23-01-2007, 21:58
Unlike northwood, I actually see great potential in your RBTs. Your list essentially has no Static CR to speak of, so it'll be imperative for you to try to whittle down some ranks bonuses from your opponent's units early on. RBTs can do this reliably and at extreme range, Repeater Crossbows cannot.


A very valid point. However, Reaper Bolt Throwers obviously lack mobility, and may just find themselves out of position to be able to cause any kind of damage. Plus a unit of COK on the flank destroy rank bonus already. SkaerKrow also did bring up another good point with the Cold One Chariots. They are good for the high strength and obviously the impact hits, however Witch Elves/Executioners are actually quicker because of their capability to march. So they might be a better option.

Gerrok
24-01-2007, 03:37
I'm just learning the fantasy rules myself, but I wonder why you upgraded your Sorceresses to level 2 casters.

2 level 1 casters have the same potential when it comes to magic defence. If you're going to throw out a spell it's most likely going to be chillwind (so that you don't get shot up) then both of them could still throw 2 dice and most likely get it off, barring the double 1's.

Then again, I'm a fantasy noob.

Uraithen
24-01-2007, 16:27
First off they are for defense but sure I want an offensive too! Second Gerrok, most oftenly you need to draw out some dispel dice from the other player first to actually get the spell you want off... it is rare to get your first choice of spell off against a player who knows what he/she is doing.

Though you seem to catch up on the fantasy rules quickly. Read my later post so see how I made use of all you little helpers advice...

I'll read all the other post later... gotta go to work!

Uraithen
24-01-2007, 23:47
Ok so I am back from work and had time to read what you all had to say.

Thank You northwoodDreamer, The SkaerKrow and Gerrok for the help and advice. I've made a a new list with the base of my old list and some new "build ons" coming for your advice and some ideas I got from listening to you guys.

The Dragon-Lord got to stay the same but I've made some changes to the other characters. One sorceress got the boot, I discovered a new talant that should do her work and more for less pay! A noble ontop a Dark Pegasus is the new star player, carrying the seal of Ghrond to keep the extra die and he will be perfect for juming in where he is needed and pose an annoying threat when the opposing player already has the Dragon to think about. The other Sorceress got off with a slap on the wrist for taking the wrong equipment to work so I made her go home, drop what she had and take her scrolls instead.
The warriors just wanted to stay healthy and walk on their own but I forced them up on their horses again. The chariot guys chariot broke so they just came riding on their cold ones this morning and I can't just have 4 so I called in my friend Harry and Bill so I had 6 guys riding cold ones. The warhydra called in sick so I thought 6 more guys on cold ones should be a fitting replacement and Harry called in the old gang. The other Chariot crew built a Reaper of their Chariot and the Cold ones morphed into another Reaper crew. And so I got this list:

Highborn with Black Dragon mount (572 pts):
Repeating Crossbow
Sea Dragon Cloak
Shield
Heart-stone of Darkness (4+ Ward Save)
Blood Armour (improves the armour save by 1 after each CC-kill).
Crimson Death (Always strike with S6, two handed).

Noble with Dark Pegasus mount (166pts):
Heavy Armour
Sea Dragon Cloak
Shield
Lance
Seal of Ghrond (+1 die to dispel pool)

Lvl 1 Sorceress with Dark Steed mount (140pts):
2 Dispel Scrolls

5 Dark Riders (127pts):
Musican
Repeating Crossbows

5 Dark Riders (120pts):
Repeating Crossbows

5 Dark Riders (120pts):
Repeating Crossbows

6 Cold One Knights (192pts):
Champion

6 Cold One Knights (192pts)
Champion

4 Reaper Bolt Throwers (400pts)

Total point cost: 1999

Ok so this is the new list. More towards magic defense without any magic offensive. Though I got a lot more of the fysical offensive into the list and a lot of more mobility.

Like The Skearkrow said... The Reapers ARE a good idea and even tough this is a bit of en overkill and not really to my own liking I can't argue the it isn't effective to have 4 thinning down the enemys numbers.

I hope you like my new list but please give me some spanking if you see that it is needed!

Gerrok
25-01-2007, 06:08
I'm just curious why one unit of cold one knights is 192 points while the other is 190 points. It's only 2 points, but still.

northwoodDreamer
25-01-2007, 15:12
Ok. Your entire army composition consists of small, hard hitting, fast movingtroops. Sure, 4 Reaper Bolt Throwers will be a nightmare for your opponent. But now you've really thinned out your hard hitting troops. You have two units of 5 COK, a lord on a dragon, and a hero on a pegasus. Pegasi aren't exceptionally fearful beasties either. I would drop the second two Bolt Throwers in favor of either more COK, a COC, Harpies (you really need to watch out for warmachines), or a Hydra. This still gives you the powerful shooting support that you desire, however you're also not completely relying on it. With four RBT's you're bound to have your units get in their way and for terrain to become a problem. And the RBT's can only shoot until you're in close combat.

Uraithen
26-01-2007, 00:57
Sorry Gerrok, my mistake. They both cost 192pts. And I just looked at my orignal list from armybuilder and there are actually 6 COK in each unit and I've made all sorts of minor errors through-out the list... sorry again.

Ok northwoodDreamer I made some errors on the posted list so you might have some other comment since the COK are actually in larger units then I wrote... but lets see how I can defend myself against your wise input this time (really appreciate everything [:P]). First off I just have to explain that my Reaper Bolt Throwers fit in to the theme by me putting them on a sort of wagon, like a chariot. This way I can say that they the still fit into the army.

I like the idea of 4 reapers ripping through the lines of my opponents army. 4 reapers can make a short story of most units. I still think that 4 is a bit of an overkill so I will try to make use of your advice and tune it down to 3 and see what I can do with those points. Though I don't think that terrain and units will be to much of a problem. I'll try to deploy them for clear shots and I'll just have to try and move my units so that they don't get in the way.
The pegasus isn't feraful at all but they sure can be a big annoying thorn in the side when you got a ********* dragon breathing you in the face already. And secondly he is a sure much better choice to get those warmachines off my back then 5-6 harpies that will flee at the frist glance of a shooting-phase, magic-phase, charge or terror causing models. He is much more reliable, better at fighting and better protected.

Ok so here are the changes I've made to my faulty list while I was writing: I've added a repeater crossbow to my noble to make some use of his great BS, I've also removed the mundane shield and given him the enchanted shield to give him some even better chances at staying in the fight.
All the dark rider units now have a musican to help them rally after fleeing from all those charges that will be directed at them. They all now also have repeating crossbows... I didn't pay the points for one unit last time I posted.
Now one unit of the COK's are up to 7 with both a champion and a musican (the numbers will give them a better chance at both breaking the enemy by causing fear and also hopefully have a more intact number after running across the board, being shot at all the way).
The other unit of COK's a still just 6 and with a champion (just as before... just that I wrote the wrong number of knights when I posted).
And finally the Reapers... now they are down to three... more than standard armies but still not to "overkilly".

So what do you think?

dominic_carrillo
26-01-2007, 01:00
you need corsairs or any other blocks of infantry. the dragon and the guy on its back cant possibly win games by themselves

Uraithen
26-01-2007, 01:10
The was kind of hard dont you think? Corsairs are to expensive and any other unit just takes up points for me... I've gotten use to the speedy armies and can't really play that well with infantary anymore. I've played many tournaments with just 5 COK's with full command and they break most infantry units of 15-30 on the charge (even broken a 25 strong corsair unit on the charge once... not to lucky either. They just ran and got run-over).

The dragon lord will possible be the game winner. But I agree with that he can't win on his own... It will be games filled with "hide-and-seek" and careful chicken play with the dragon just jumping unit's he will be sure to break on the first turn.

Mad Makz
26-01-2007, 01:39
The best way to operate this sort of list is to ONLY take fast mobile troops.

You want Dark Riders and Scouts as your troops. As many Dark Riders as you can get

The Dragon as your lord unit.

You don't want Chariots, or Cold One Knights, they are too unreliable due to stupidity.

You want a couple of Bolt Throwers.

You want 2 level 2 mages, each with two dispel scrolls (or a dispel scroll and a power stone each). Dark magic is hugely offensive, and with the +1 to your casting value two level 2's are very reliable both offensively and defensively.

The entire army revolves around avoiding combat with anything but the dragon, unless it's a flank or rare charge with the dark riders against a unit that has already been engaged by the dragon to ensure it breaks.

But mostly, for the first 4 turns of the game, you avoid combat and pelt your enemy with magic and shooting and terror checks from the dragon and the odd breath attack. Then you swoop in for the kill on turns 5 and six with the dragon, gathering up standards from the much weakened units that have not been able to gain any victory points against your much more mobile troops that are shooting and blasting the enemy with magic.

It is a VERY effective army - but can be quite unpleasant to play against due it focussing on preventing your enemy from engaging you.

Uraithen
26-01-2007, 02:01
I do hear you Mad Makz but I can't really agree with you on the COK's. The Chariots still lack some LD compared to the Knights and will go stupid much of the time. They are also to slow to keep up and get the Generals Ld even short times of the game. This is where the Knights really shine! They have an excellent LD of 9 these days and will keep up with the general most the time and will surely get to use his LD most turns.

The offensive mage tactic was kinda good... had that in mind to if you read the first list but it really doesn't beat just going for magic defense and just try to rip those enemy mages apart before I run out of scrolls.

The Dragon tactic was a real lesson. Thanks! that is a great tactica... nothing like I ever made use of... it is to tempting to just charge in turn 2... but I will try to make the best use of your advice.

Anything else?

Gerrok
26-01-2007, 04:05
This may be a stupid question, but how do you keep Sorceresses alive? The tactic I've seen in the couple games I've watched involves them hiding in a block of troops or with a unit of skirmishers. It seems that putting them with a small unit of dark riders is asking to have them broken, and putting them in with the knights is...dangerous too.

So I'm just wondering how that actually works.

Uraithen
26-01-2007, 10:59
In the new list she is actually going to stroll the board all on her own. The whole army is fastmoving so she will be left behind to just dispel whatever comes my why... mabye she can join a bolt thrower crew just for a little bit of protection.

I thought I would make it easier for you all to remember the changes if I actually posted the new list without errors and with the new changes:

Highborn with Black Dragon mount (572 pts):
Repeating Crossbow
Sea Dragon Cloak
Shield
Heart-stone of Darkness (4+ Ward Save)
Blood Armour (improves the armour save by 1 after each CC-kill).
Crimson Death (Always strike with S6, two handed).

Noble with Dark Pegasus mount (184pts):
Repeating Crossbow
Heavy Armour
Sea Dragon Cloak
Lance
Seal of Ghrond (+1 die to dispel pool)
Enchanted Shield

Lvl 1 Sorceress (140pts):
2 Dispel Scrolls

5 Dark Riders (127pts):
Musican
Repeating Crossbows

5 Dark Riders (127pts):
Musican
Repeating Crossbows

5 Dark Riders (127pts):
Musican
Repeating Crossbows

7 Cold One Knights (230pts):
Champion
Musican

6 Cold One Knights (192pts):
Champion

3 Reaper Bolt Throwers (300pts)

Total point cost: 1999

Uraithen
26-01-2007, 12:17
Ok so now I'm actually discussing this with myself but someone might jump in a bit later.

What about dropping the COK's down to 5 each, one with full command and one with just a champion and get exactly enough points to put in a unit of 5 shades?

Jhayden
26-01-2007, 15:10
I would do that Urathain. Also I would remove another RBT to help fill in points elsewhere. For instance perhaps give your CoK units full command and possibly magical equipment. 2 rbts is fine, 3 is pushing it.

Uraithen
26-01-2007, 22:20
3 is pushing what? Can't really see a limit to how many RBT you can have. RBT's are just to powerful in many cases so 3 is just a bit pushing it towards the "cheesy-area". Though I don't really think that it is to much... people is just more use to see 2.

I actually can't really see what I can do with 100pts that is more useful than a RBT. I would just add a COK or two into the already existing unit and that wouldn't really make them that much more powerful?

But what do you others think about Jhaydens proposal? Is it just a waste of points having a third RBT? What can I do with those 100 points?

Palatine Katinka
26-01-2007, 23:10
I'd consider droppingthe Noble in favour of a Beastmaster on a Manticore. I know Beastmasters aren't great and manticores don't compare to Dragons but picture the look on your opponents face when it comes to deploying Characters and you place TWO flying terrifying monsters! A Beastmaster on a Manticore isn't that expensive if I recall correctly and could provide a good distraction or supporting charge along side the Dragon.

Uraithen
27-01-2007, 01:47
Palatine Katinka, I really appreciate you trying to help and I'm not trying to be mean... I guess I'm just tired and can't really formulate me any different... but that is actually a really bad idea in a 2K-game since most armies can get really magic heavy in even only 1K-games... If I field A Lord on a dragon it takes up one Lord slot and one Hero slot, and if I then field a Beastmaster on a Manticore they will take up my last two Hero slots not allowing me to get a sorceress to help me get the oh so necessary magic protection. I guess it's a pretty good idea in larger games but then you can also get two dragons so why bother? Manticores often die after just one or two vollys of just normal st3 weapons and the beastmaster can't really withstand any punishment either... So... It's an excellent model but oftenly its just a bad idea to put it in a tourney army.

Sorry about that... But if you have anything else to add I will be happy to listen.

Thanks.

northwoodDreamer
27-01-2007, 07:22
The idea of the Manticore would be beautiful if it did not take up an additional hero slot. I actually didn't remember that it did either.

As for the 3 RBT's, I guess give it a shot. You don't have very many units and the ones you do have are extremely fast so I guess you won't get in your own way. As for the Shades, they are probably a decent idea. I think you have yourself a pretty solid army right now, as long as you are tactically ready. This won't be an easy army to play by any means, but it should be really fun and competitive.

Uraithen
28-01-2007, 05:53
A Highborn mounted upon a Black Dragon takes up one Lord slot and one Hero slot.

A Highborn mounted upon a Manticore takes up a Lord slot but now additional Hero slot.

A Beastmaster can't be mounted upon a Black Dragon but can be mounted upon a Manticore but then the Beastmaster takes up one additional Hero slot making him take up a total of 2 Hero slots.

Thanks northwoodDreamer. I am actually really pleased with my new armylist and will put in the shades.
I've played with my dragon alot since I'm really "Dragon-horney" and can't simply leave it on the shelf. Meaning, I hope I've collected enough experience with the dragon to use it wisely on the table.
Just have to say that this is the most perfect DE list I've ever seen with a dragon in it. Thanks for helping me out guys! I'm really happy with the result and I will keep you a bit updated on how that battles are going.