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Dyrnwyn
24-01-2007, 08:29
I've run into a couple problems with the Pirates rules as they are presented on the SG site.

1. How many Gunners am I allowed? The "Choice of Warriors" section says 7, but thier unit entry says they're 0-2.
EDIT: Looks like this is supposed to be 7, since otherwise a full henchmen group of 5 is impossible and the rules for a swivel gun are nonsensical.

2. Swivel Gun rounds; What exactly is thier total armor modifer? For instance; Ball Shot is listed as having a -2 modifer; is this in addition to it's S5, giving it a total modifier of -4, or is it just -2?
EDIT: Doublechecked the regular blackpowder rules, handguns and pistols are written the same way, so it looks like the modifier is total. So -4 on Ball Shot, and -2 on Chain.

3. Grape Shot; it hits d6 other models when it hits. If three enemy models are standing in a row and I roll a six after hitting, would the other two models be hit once each and the extra hits wasted, or would each of the other two models be hit 3 times each?
EDIT: Still no answer on this, though I'm leaning towards the extra hits being wasted.

Fastforward rlz
13-02-2007, 22:05
Hurmm i would also think the extra shots/hits are wasted. that would mean you could hit a single model six times which would be pretty cheezy. Seven gunners does seem acceptable.

TKitch
14-02-2007, 00:12
7 gunners, is the real number.

The armor save should be beyond the normal strength modifier. (So they have a _2 and -4 total for chain and ball respectively.)

as for the cloud of enemies hit: I'd say "up to D6", so you hit up to that many models, any higher a roll is useless. Wasting the extra hits.

Dyrnwyn
14-02-2007, 04:29
Glad to see I have some concurrence on the answers. I'm a little disappointed on the grapeshot, but it seems more likely that the extra hits would be discarded.

Mortogul
24-02-2007, 20:14
It is still useful,
if you fight against an Warband which uses lots of cheap Models to overrun you like Goblins, Zombies, Skaven or shot into a massive close combat because your own troops can't get any hits from it.:skull:

Fastforward rlz
21-03-2007, 18:32
Well even if it "can't" hit your own models you still can't shoot into combat because in a real life situation they would. You have to think about it that way, also the rules specifically state you man "never" fire into combat under any circumstances

Dyrnwyn
22-03-2007, 00:08
Well, you can't shoot into a close combat, but you can shoot an unengaged model near a close-combat and cause the cloud of hits to extend into the combat, while ignoring your own models.

Fastforward rlz
22-03-2007, 04:01
Hurmm sounds shiffty....

Dyrnwyn
22-03-2007, 07:35
Hurmm sounds shiffty....

Doesn't seem particularly shifty to me. The Grapeshot special rules specifically say that it doesn't affect friendy Pirates. All models are eligible for hits, even those that are Hidden, so I don't see why it wouldn't be able to extend into a combat. It still requires a model that isn't in combat to be within 4" of the combat to be an eligible target.

Fastforward rlz
22-03-2007, 17:10
Yes yes that's true. I'm just saying some people probably wouldn't like you doing that lol.

Ross
02-04-2007, 13:01
It wouldn't be a particulary nice tactic, but how many times in 40k has someone target a 'near' unit with ordenance and had it scattered to it's real destination behind a forest/skyscraper?
Food 4 thought.

philthulhu
04-04-2007, 05:48
Don't forget the rest of the horribly broken stuff. The boathooks, for example.

Personally, and after many many games with the pirate rules, I use my converted/painted pirate warband as Marienburgers. The pirate rules were 'fun' and all, but the stock rulebook warbands actually let you play a decent game.

Dyrnwyn
04-04-2007, 06:06
No offense Phil... but what are you talking about? Boathooks are just spears that hit at -1 Strength. I can't see anything else in the list particularly open to abuse other than the Spyglass, which frankly, is kind of necessary to combat Skaven. Obviously the Swivel Gun is a good weapon, but it has its own upkeep cost, and is limited to one per warband. I certainly don't feel that my Pirates prevent me from having a decent game.

What, specifically, is your problem with them?

philthulhu
04-04-2007, 08:06
I'd have to find it again, but from memory, weren't boathooks two-handed? There may have been a couple of other things, but seriously, it's been a while since I've used them that way. There may have been an update.

Then again, it might also have been because the other players in the campaign were using Skaven, Beastmen, and Possessed :cheese:

Dyrnwyn
04-04-2007, 08:28
I'd have to find it again, but from memory, weren't boathooks two-handed? There may have been a couple of other things, but seriously, it's been a while since I've used them that way. There may have been an update.

Then again, it might also have been because the other players in the campaign were using Skaven, Beastmen, and Possessed :cheese:

Well, yeah, boathooks are two-handed, but that just further establishes that they're worse than spears. What's so broken about them?

philthulhu
04-04-2007, 10:20
Mostly that they're worse than spears. For the same cost.
It was just my experience that the Pirates were nerfed due to little things like that throughout the list.

Dyrnwyn
04-04-2007, 22:20
So you're not saying that Pirates are broken, you're saying that Pirates are underpowered, and because they were underpowered, they were nerfed? No offense, but that sounds incredibly silly. Besides, Boakhooks are 2 gc cheaper than spears, not the same price.

nkicik
04-04-2007, 23:20
Surely for something like the grapeshot you'd just use common sense and not take the rules to the letter, if the shot scatters into close combat then you surely have to hit both models or neither. It's just taking advantage of a stupid loophole against the spirit of fair play otherwise.

Fastforward rlz
06-04-2007, 02:32
Yes I agree with nKicik. I think in games with my friends pirates we'll say it hits both just for hilarity's sake. Honestly it's things like this that make Mordheim my favorite game. >:-D

Ozorik
28-04-2007, 09:57
Doesn't seem particularly shifty to me. The Grapeshot special rules specifically say that it doesn't affect friendy Pirates


Grapeshot is a cloud of pointy metal which is only aimed in roughly the right direction. Saying that it can only hit enemys may be ok by the letter of the rules but certainly not the spirit.

Dyrnwyn
28-04-2007, 19:01
Grapeshot is a cloud of pointy metal which is only aimed in roughly the right direction. Saying that it can only hit enemys may be ok by the letter of the rules but certainly not the spirit.

If you want to object to the fact that they ignore grapeshot hits when in close combat, that's fine. I don't think that was intended when they wrote the rules. I'd house rule it that the Pirate could either dodge the grapeshot, but the model(s) he was in CC with would get a free hit on him, or he could stand and defend himself, risking the shot hitting him. In most cases, taking the possiblity of a randomized grapeshot hit would be better than taking a free hit from some of the monstrosities out there.

However, objecting to the fact that Pirates don't get hit with thier own grapeshot under normal circumstances is pretty silly, especially in light of the explicit rule and fluff explanation. The rules specifically say when Pirates hear a swivel gun going off, they dive for cover. Perhaps it doesn't quite mesh with reality, but it is well within the spirit of the rules as the rule itself isn't ambiguous, even if some of the situations it creates are.

Inquisitor Konig
07-05-2007, 09:32
Problems with Pirates? I was thinking about making a warband, should I rethink it?
They seem good to me. Especialy with a Bounty Hunter.

Dyrnwyn
08-05-2007, 23:09
Well, if you read through the thread, you'll see there are a few ambiguities and misprintings in the Pirate rules. Most of them are easy enough to solve. I like the list myself, I think it's got alot of character, though there are some options few people would want to take.

Inquisitor Konig
10-05-2007, 08:06
Thats how I felt too. I think they are one of the best Mercenary lists. I also really like Hired Swords so that would be another plus to use them... both a Troll Slayer and a Pirate Slayer in the same list would be great!