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View Full Version : 2 Cold One Chariots, or 8 Cold One Knights?



Nubelf
24-01-2007, 18:17
In terms of money the Chariots win out, no contest. But, that's not what I want to focus on. Would taking two Chariots be "better" than taking 8 cold one knights?

I'll list the benefits I see:
Knights
Armor Save
+2str on charge

Chariot
# of attacks
less points, more to spend elsewhere
is a chariot

Both units cause fear. Now, would 8 Cold One knights charging a unit break that unit? That's 5 attacks counting champion, 4 more with the Cold Ones. Would two chariots charging a unit break them?

I was thinking, if I went with the Chariots, to take Spears but not Xbows; is that a good idea?

Thanks for any input!

Makarion
24-01-2007, 18:45
8 knights don't gain a rank (minimum of 5 in line for that), so I would use 5 knights plus a chariot, or 5-6 knights and put those spare points towards more repeater bolt throwers or perhaps dark riders.

You could also consider giving Cold One Knights a warbanner, to up their CR without quite having to pay for an extra rank.

Nubelf
24-01-2007, 18:48
Very nice to know about those Cold Ones! But, would 5 be of any use at all?

Makaber
24-01-2007, 19:14
In my eyes, the Cold One Knights are decent enough, but they really don't shine without a character to lead them. If they don't win combat they'll have a really hard time on subsequent rounds with only Strength 3 attacks, and since they're basically the best armour save you can get in the army, they're often as nice to tie units down, as they are to break them immediately. Yes it might seem silly to use heavy cavalry to tie stuff down, but fact is they just don't have the hitting power by themselves to reliably do so.

With a character, however, you both get additional hitting power on the charge, and thus better chance of breaking the unit, but also more attacks at a higher strength on subsequent rounds if they fail to do so. I use a Highborn with Sword of Might, which churns out 4 more Strength 5 hits and also helps stupidity with his Ld 10, but a relativly cheap hero would probably suffice as well.

Chariots are also very good, and do horrific damage on combined charges, but it's pretty hard to pull one off because of the stupidity. It's a very real setback, moreso than for the knights because the chariots only have Ld 8 going for them. Personally I use both knights and chariots in my army and it's hard for me to recommend one over the other. They're both decent units.

Nubelf
24-01-2007, 19:22
Hm, it's something to consider. RTT's in my area run at 1850 for points, though. What if I had 3 chariots? Quick overview of my army: 40 Corsairs, 10 Riders, 14 Witches, Noble, 20 BG. I am fiercly combat heavy, my goal is fast and heavy hitting. If the unit doesn't hit hard, they have many attacks to back em up. But, Cold One Knights seem to only hit hard once; on the charge. And, at that, they don't have many attacks.

Hard decision.

Mephistofeles
24-01-2007, 20:08
Well, cold ones hit as hard as a chariot (DE chariots have strenght 5 right?) so that's not an issue, the only real issue is number of attacks and how hard it is to kill.

A unit of cold ones (I would suggest 5+character) is a lot harder to kill than a chariot most of the time. As for number of attacks, the Knights always have 6+characters 3-4 which is really good. The chariot however gets 1-6, which is NOT reliable at all.

I would say go for 5 knights plus character if I were you.

Nubelf
24-01-2007, 20:10
Sounds like a plan, currently editing my army list.

Makarion
25-01-2007, 01:34
Although I agree with Mephistofeles, a unit of 5 CoK with a noble is likely as many points as 3 chariots.

Checked it in Armybuilder:

Noble with heavy armour, cold one, great weapon and sea dragon cloak plus 5 CoK with full command is exactly 300 points. That's 3 chariots with 15 points left over. I rather like the more reliable number of hits the knights will do, though.

vorac
25-01-2007, 01:58
i had run a list with 4 cold one chariots and then i changed it because unfortunetly if you send 2 chariots at something and you roll really bad impact hits then they will be stuck there which happened a lot, now i run 9 cok with my high born and 1 chariot and the chariot just supports the executioners. So far the knights go through everything and having a high unit strength with fear is really good.A fun thing to do is run a highborn in a chariot with the other chariots around him, i had no problem with stupidity it was the impact hits that always killed me since i constantly rolled 1 or 2

northwoodDreamer
25-01-2007, 05:05
If expecting either COK or COC to break an enemy's line, you'd better have a Highborn. In general, I'd side with COK. They are more reliable in terms of attacks, they are faster, they don't take hits in forests, and they don't auto die against Str 7. (6+ save still ;) ). Keep in mind, chariots can not march. Oh and such thing as Cannons and Bolt Throwers will cause more damage to a chariot than a unit of 5 COK.

Nubelf
25-01-2007, 06:02
I've decided on the Knights, mainly after finding that Chariots can't march. I'd really hate to lose them behind! I've gone with the Noble in a squad of Knights idea.

sulla
26-01-2007, 23:41
I've decided on the Knights, mainly after finding that Chariots can't march. I'd really hate to lose them behind! I've gone with the Noble in a squad of Knights idea.

A solid choice. If you find the points later on, a pair of chariots is an excellent way to support your infantry.

Holy Crap! Manticores!
27-01-2007, 09:43
First, to re-iterate a very important point that has been brought up, bring a Noble on a CO, or a Highborn if you can afford the points. The Nob/HB can be kitted out with some nasty gear, however, I like the Shield of Ghrond for the -1 S penalty on opposing attacks. Trust me, the extra 1 on the AS will save your hide against S4-heavy armies.

One thing that has come up is the question of "what happens if we don't break them on the charge?" Well, you've got a good AS, with riders who can hot but not hurt. But COs are S4. In protracted combats, that can make a difference.

With COK's, you have a better oppurtunity to get 4 or 5 of the lizzies attacking at S4, as opposed to 2 for a Chariot.

As far as the quick overview of your army, i'm dismayed at the lack of Warriors and Dark Riders. If you want to hit hard and fast, DR's will get you into combat faster than anything that isn't flying, and my experience is that the steeds kill more models than the riders. (Results may vary) The Warriors may look unimpressive compared to Witches and Corsairs, but they do fulfill roles for the army... bait units, speedbumps, and if you get really lucky, they may even win a combat now and then.

whydiablo
27-12-2007, 18:06
I am a new lizardman player, and I never use lizardman chariot before.
But it look powerful :)

warlord hack'a
27-12-2007, 22:40
A unit of cold ones (I would suggest 5+character) is a lot harder to kill than a chariot most of the time. As for number of attacks, the Knights always have 6+characters 3-4 which is really good. The chariot however gets 1-6, which is NOT reliable at all.



the 5 CoK+character get 6+6+characters number of attacks, provided they all 6 get into combat. Now the knights will hit a ws3 enemy on 3+ so that's 4 hits you can expect, the cold ones will hit on 4+ so that's 3 hits and the character (le't stick with Makarion's example and take a noble) has three attacks so will add another 1.5 hit. So in total that's 5.5 hits at S5 and 3 hits at S4.

Now for the same amount of points (and the same formation width) you get three chariots with spears. Each chariot causes an average of 4.5 impact HITS, not attacks. So that alone would (on average) for the three chariots combined give you 13.5 S5 hits. Then add 6 cold one attacks gives 3 cold one S4 hits, plus 6 crew attacks gives 4 S4 hits for the grand total of 7 S4 hits.

So when it comes to a head on bash with an average enemy then the chariots win, provided they get the charge. If chariots get charged they are toast. And of course they suffer from stupidity more, are slower, have a more random result (yes they can and will bounce off enemy units when you roll low for impact hits) and can get shot to smithereens with S7 hits. But on the upside they do not use a character slot to work, can be spread out more evenly over the battlefield, are easy to manouver (a 6 wide unit of knights does not manouver easily and takes up a lot of space) and when one fails stupidity the other ones will still work. But they do take up three special slots..

So the question comes down to: what is your plan with them.. Seeing as that you have a lot of infantry chariots might be viable as they are great in supporting infantry. And spread out between your blocks they create one big threatzone that the enemy must move through where these three chariots can potentially charge one enemy unit together (and trust me, not a lot of enemy units can stand 13 S5 hits, though of course you might also end up with only 6 S5 hits..

Anyway, although they look alike CoK and CoC fulfill different roles and I do not know what role you need fulfilling..