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Firedrake Thomas
25-01-2007, 04:19
First off, wasn't sure if this should go in here or rules... this forum seemed more appropriate, though.

Anyway, for those of you that don't know, Brimstone has said that a new Dark Eldar codex may be coming relatively soon, possibly even next year in '08.

Now this topic may be a little premature, but I was wondering what kind of changes / additions you'd like to see in the new Dark Eldar Codex. This can include change in points cost, new wargear, new squad options, and even new units.
Also, feel free to say what models you thing need to be redone.

Here are some of my own thoughts.

HQ:

I'm pretty happy with the Dark Eldar HQ choices. However, Ithink a few pieces of equipment could be added.
- Scourge Wings. Lords only. ( around 15 pts)
- Some kind of more powerful pistol, perhaps a plasma pistol equivalent (~10 / 15 pts)
- Incubi armor, complete with Tormentor helm and punisher. Lords only. (~25 pts)
- I got this idea after reading Nightbringer by Graham McNeill, which featured Dark Eldar. In the book, the Dark Eldar lord had these small creatures made from sewn together flesh that would jump on and attack his opponent in close combat. I think this could be represented by a new piece of wargear, similar to an ork attack squig, with the following profile:
Pts: 15 WS: 3 BS: --- S:3 T:3 W:3 I:5 A:3 Ld: 4 Sv: ---
This could only be taken by Dark Eldar Lords and Haemonculi, and when the character died, the creatures would be assumed to scatter, thus destroyed.

- Plastic Incubi FTW. Plastic lord similar to the SM one would be nice too.

Elite

- Plastic Wyches would be really nice.

- I've never used Mandrakes or Grotesques, so have no comment on how to change their rules... they seem pretty balanced to me.

- And idea for a new elite unit: Dark Eldar assassins. These would be similar to Imperial assassins. They would be a 0-1 choice, but, like Lictors and Zoanthropes, up to three could be taken and they would be deployed separately. Each one would be in the 50 / 70 pts ranged and equipped with special wargear. Perhaps they could have different rolls, ie. tank hunter, HQ assassin, monstrous creature killer. Same stats as a Dark Eldar Sybarite, but with two wounds and the infiltrate and move through cover special rules.

Troop

- Despite many complaints about the current Dark Eldar warriors and the high probability that they are going to be redone, I think this is unnecessary and think the basic warrior may be one of the best looking models in the whole army. my humble opinion, of course.

- Here's an idea I got from "The Dude" (below). Keep the splinter rifle the way it is, but give all warriors Splinter Pistol in addition so they have something to shoot before they charge- similar to the way Dark Angels have Bolter and a Bolt Pistol. Also, any warriors could replace their Splinter Rifle for a CCW for free, giving them less range but an extra attack in close combat.

- For +2 pts each, Raider squad warriors may be given hit and run ability.

Fast Attack

- Give Reavers hit and run ability

Heavy Support

- Scourges: Scourges need a bit of re-working in my opinion, as right now they are far to fragile for their high pts cost.
- Base Points cost reduction from 16 to 14 pts. All weapon/ upgrade options remain the same pts.
- Ability to take Blasters for +15 pts and Shredders for +15 pts. This may seem unfair, but think about it. A unit of 6 scourges with 4 blasters would cost, with these changes, would cost 150 points. Keep in mind that Bolter shots wound on a 3+ with no armor save. With the Blaster's 12" range, these guys will be lucky if they even make it across the field to an enemy tank. And for those of you who say it is uncharacterful, I ask how? They have the same purpose, taking out tanks or large numbers of infantry.


- Reduce Ravager to 100 pts. All options remain same pts cost.

Forgeworld

- Because, as pointed out later in this topic, a titan or super heavy wouldn't fit, maybe at least a new flyer?

-----------------------------

So yeah, that’s my thoughts. I know I added a lot of hit and run in there, but that’s how I see Dark Eldar. They’re raiders, they strike fast and then disappear before you can destroy them, only to strike again. This combined with the more assaulty main warrior I think gives the army a more fluff-accurate feel and I think would play nicer.

So, your turn now.

UncleCrazy
25-01-2007, 04:33
Dark Eldar SHOULD NOT have a titan or any other super heavy. As they should never be in fights long enough for those to come in to play as they a raiding force.

Firedrake Thomas
25-01-2007, 04:46
Yeah, that is true... I just think it's annoying how with the upcomming apocolypse expansion, DE will be one of the only armies without a super heavy or titan. ;.;

They could at least get a little more love from Forgeworld in other areas.

The Dude
25-01-2007, 04:53
I'm pretty happy with the Dark Eldar HQ choices. However, Ithink a few pieces of equipment could be added.
- Scourge Wings. Lords only. ( around 15 pts)
- Some kind of more powerful pistol, perhaps a plasma pistol equivalent (~10 / 15 pts)
- Incubi armor, complete with Tormentor helm and punisher. Lords only. (~25 pts)
- I got this idea after reading Nightbringer by Graham McNeill, which featured Dark Eldar. In the book, the Dark Eldar lord had these small creatures made from sewn together flesh that would jump on and attack his opponent in close combat. I think this could be represented by a new piece of wargear, similar to an ork attack squig, with the following profile:
Pts: 15 WS: 3 BS: --- S:3 T:3 W:3 I:5 A:3 Ld: 4 Sv: ---
This could only be taken by Dark Eldar Lords and Haemonculi, and when the character died, the creatures would be assumed to scatter, thus destroyed.

All good ideas with the possible exception of the gribbly things. A cool Idea, but they should have some other affect, rather than be separate models with a profile.


- Plastic Incubi FTW. Plastic lord similar to the SM one would be nice too.

I don’t see plastic Incubi coming any time soon. An elite unit reserved for bodyguard probably wouldn’t be given a plastic slot for an army that needs so many new plastics. The lord, Possibly, but the Autarch has set the standard here, I’m afraid, so I’d expect 2 or 3 bodies and a bunch of weapon variants.

I also think there could be a chance of the HQ selection altering army Composition. Like you need a Homunculus to have access to a Talos or Grotesques, or a Wych lord would allow Wyches as Troops, that sort of thing.


Plastic Wyches would be really nice.

Well if my last point comes true, I could see this happening. I’d also expect a plastic Talos (as all Dread-type figures are going plastic now.


Despite many complaints about the current Dark Eldar warriors and the high probability that they are going to be redone, I think this is unnecessary and think the basic warrior may be one of the best looking models in the whole army. my humble opinion, of course.

I’d say that at the very least they will be re-cut. The lines aren’t quite as sharp as they could be, and the spikes are OTT to my way of thinking. It really depends on how dramatically they want to change the look in the redesign.


Dark Eldar basic gun, splinter rifle, should be changed to be more like the Eldar guardian Shuriken Catapult. 12” assault 2, although perhaps still S3 to keep it balanced. However, as it is, Dark Eldar are mainly an assault army that should keep on the move, so rapid fire weapons don’t really work that well with them.

I think Rapid Fire works for them, especially if they’re mounted on Raiders. I think a better option to give them that slight bump in assaults would be to give them the Marine treatment and give them all a Splinter Pistol in addition to their Splinter Rifle. Also, allowing them to replace their Rifle with a CCW would mean you could make a cool Close Combat unit without resorting to Wyches (for those who want a pure warrior army).


Give Reavers hit and run ability

I’d go for that.


Move Scourges here?

Have to disagree here. Whilst they do have Jump Packs, they are still a Heavy Weapon toting squad, as so should remain Heavy Support. The fact that you also want them to have access to Blasters and Shredders shows me that you’re a bit off the point of them here. The Packs simply reinforce the Fast nature of the army as a whole. Like even their heavy support can zip about if they need to.


So yeah, that’s my thoughts. I know I added a lot of hit and run in there, but that’s how I see Dark Eldar. They’re raiders, they strike fast and then disappear before you can destroy them, only to strike again. This combined with the more assaulty main warrior I think gives the army a more fluff-accurate feel and I think would play nicer.

I have to say that I do think you may have gone just a teensy bit overboard with the hit-and-run. I’d say just Reavers and Possibly Hellions should have it, maybe even as an upgrade like Eldar Aspect Warriors.

Well those are my thoughts anyway.

Edit:


I just think it's annoying how with the upcomming apocolypse expansion, DE will be one of the only armies without a super heavy or titan. ;.;

Nobody knows who will have what or how it will work with Apocalypse. All we know is there's a pretty good chance there will be a Plastic Baneblade. What it does is as yet unrevealed

Firedrake Thomas
25-01-2007, 05:20
I don’t see plastic Incubi coming any time soon. An elite unit reserved for bodyguard probably wouldn’t be given a plastic slot for an army that needs so many new plastics. The lord, Possibly, but the Autarch has set the standard here, I’m afraid, so I’d expect 2 or 3 bodies and a bunch of weapon variants.

True, probably. But I would hope that, at the very least, they could make some new Incubi models in more dynamic poses. The current ones are way to static for such skillful and agile warriors.


I also think there could be a chance of the HQ selection altering army Composition. Like you need a Homunculus to have access to a Talos or Grotesques, or a Wych lord would allow Wyches as Troops, that sort of thing.

Interesting idea... I like it.


I think a better option to give them that slight bump in assaults would be to give them the Marine treatment and give them all a Splinter Pistol in addition to their Splinter Rifle. Also, allowing them to replace their Rifle with a CCW would mean you could make a cool Close Combat unit without resorting to Wyches (for those who want a pure warrior army).

Ah! This comes very close to one of the ideas I had earlier that I forgot to mention. Giving warriors the option to switch their splinter rifles for splinter pistols and CCWs for free. This idea is better, though. I like the idea of having the splinter rifles, and also the pistols for when they're about to charge. I believe the new Dark Angels have something similar to that, although I'm not sure.


Have to disagree here. Whilst they do have Jump Packs, they are still a Heavy Weapon toting squad, as so should remain Heavy Support. The fact that you also want them to have access to Blasters and Shredders shows me that you’re a bit off the point of them here. The Packs simply reinforce the Fast nature of the army as a whole. Like even their heavy support can zip about if they need to.

I was just thinking of a way to make scourges better... And also, they still would play pretty much the same roll as they do now. I think it would be pretty cool to have a squad with 4 blasters- and tell me that's not heavy support. :p It might not have range, but is sure has the ability to explode some nice juicy tanks. Also, how would a squad with 4 shredders be so differnt than a squad with 4 splinter cannons? They're both assault weapons made to take down large numbers of light infantry. I can see your point, though.They should stay as heavy support, since they are essentially a devastator squad on wings, and they should NOT have hit and run. I do still think that a small points drop and MAYBE the shredder and blaster options would make them more worthwhile.

The Dude
25-01-2007, 05:25
I believe the new Dark Angels have something similar to that, although I'm not sure.

Yes, that’s where I was coming from :D.


I was just thinking of a way to make scourges better...
[snip]
They should stay as heavy support, since they are essentially a devastator squad on wings, and they should NOT have hit and run. I do still think that a small points drop and MAYBE the shredder and blaster options would make them more worthwhile.

I think a way to make them better would be to give them some sort of special ability similar to the Swooping Hawks re-deployment (but not the same). They need to remain a static firebase that can pack up and haul **** when necessary :D.

Gerrok
25-01-2007, 05:52
I would like to see a few changes in dark eldar. The ones I'm looking for the most are:

Incubi-From what I understand these are suppose to be striking scorpions in the form of "the hunter" (as opposed to "the stalker" that the craftworld eldar have). I'd like to see them made more like a craftworld eldar aspect warrior, instead of the bodyguard unit they are now.

Hellions-Give them a reason to exist. Right now they make baby jesus cry.

Scourges-These need to be movers, not static gun lines (when armed with dark lances). If all you're looking for is a static gun line it's much more effective to buy 2 squads of dark eldar warriors and equip each with 2 dark lances (you even save 10 points, woohoo!). If scourges are going to be a static gun line then they pretty much have to sit in cover, and if they have to move they don't really move much faster then a warrior squad (12" vs 6"+fleet). Right now I would only play them as a squad that squashes small isolated units with splinter cannons.

Grotesques and Mandrakes need a once over, just to make sure they're doing what they're suppose to. I kinda like the assassin idea, but I see that as being a mandrake squad+champion, instead of a single model.

Anyway, other then that the codex just needs a good spring cleaning and the model range could use a update.

Oh, I almost forgot the most important thing: No male wyches! Just say no to speedo elves. They're wearing tighty whities and they're smuggling plums.

Sgt Biffo
25-01-2007, 06:09
Reavers definately need something to make them the fastest unit in the game again. Maybe plasma grenade launchers too.

I've said on a few other threads of similar content that the armaments of the basic troops need to be looked at.

I thought Splinter carbines might be an intersting upgrade for Raider squad (Perhaps renaming them Corsairs?)-

S3. AP5. Range: 18", Pistol.

Still allows 2 shots if you stay still but you can make a decent assult after a volley from the carbines. Also Assult Blades that act as a seconary CC weapon.

Syberites need something to make them more than an Agoniser delivery system. Perhaps access to Splinter Canons; similar to Ork Nobs being able to get Rokkit Launchers and Big Shootas. Its very Dark Reaper too.

Being able to replace Splinter Canons and Dark Lances with assult weaponry would be nice too (4 Shredders would help get the weapon a bit more respect amongst other players). And perhaps the reverse for a Heavy Slot unit, though they would have to have something else to let them be not just Scourges with out wings. Maybe a 4+ save or camoleoline or something...

Incubi as a troops choice though they can never count as a compulsery choice, or perhaps only one unit can be take for every other troop slot filled by other units.

All mandrakes armed with poison blades. Might not get that many attacks but they will be worth it. This is more to make Elites choices something other than Wytches!!!

I've had other thoughts too. I'm trying to keep in mind other weapons and rules, because the effect has already been play-tested thoroughly.

zendral
25-01-2007, 06:18
Dark Eldar SHOULD NOT have a titan or any other super heavy. As they should never be in fights long enough for those to come in to play as they a raiding force.

I think that's still unfair. A titan, no. A super heavy........flyer? why the hell not? They are a raiding force and they do have motherships, ergo they do having bigger raiding planes. If they were going to be in apocalypse, I imagine they would have a big flyer fleet.

noneedforaname
25-01-2007, 08:54
dunno about super heavies i would kind of like to see something similar to the haridan for the DE, a carrier raider with built in warp gate generator, allows it to jump to settlements and then release a flock of jetbikes/helions/scourges from its hangars.

Or if anyone is familiar with ian m banks culture novels something similar to a needle ship.

things to change:

talos needs a complete visual overhaul it is supposed to be powered by the souls of those it consumes yet the model looks like i would have trouble swalling a grot, definately needs to be in plastic because of the fragility of the flying stand.

Lords again need shiny new models as the current ones are awful.

Harlequins should be available as the fight and have doings with both CWE and DE.

Like to see something similar to daemonic venom for mandrakes and something similar to the shrouding/tau stealth field for shooting at them.

Move grotesques to troops but only available if haemonculus taken, also talos only available if haemonculus taken.

Incubi moved to elites, new models, 0-1 unless you take an archon

Wyches stay where they are and the same, wyches and raider/warrior squads swap places if archite is taken.

Hellions nice models just get the rules sorted.

Reaver jetbikes should be eldar jetbikes aswell as hit and run but apart from that no change.

Reduce the base and weapon costs for scourges but do not give them access to the any new weapons.

Nightfield should give tau stealth/shrouding rule not -6" range.

New stuff

Large gladatorial beasts with wych handlers (think great knarloc/chaos spined beast type)

?

Thanatos_elNyx
25-01-2007, 10:28
For Warriors, perhaps they could have Kroot Rifles. i.e. +1 A from their spiky rifles.

toxic_wisdom
27-01-2007, 15:13
need to come back to this when I have more time.

Lurcio
28-01-2007, 00:17
My thoughts:
Agree that the spliter rifle (and hellglave) should be assault...and maybe count as additional close combat weapon on charge. This'd encourage troops to get stuck-in instead of hanging back in sniper squads.
For Hellions bung 'em "furious charge" (rather than the more specific hellglave special rule)and "hit and run" and they're sorted.
Instead giving Scourges Jump Packs, give 'em Jet Packs, which will make 'em a nice shoot and scoot unit.

Curufew
28-01-2007, 03:18
Harliequinns for Dark Eldar.

Tymell
28-01-2007, 03:37
My own thoughts, feel free to pick apart/discuss:

Models:

I feel the following could do with new ones: Lord, Haemonculus, Wyches (pref. plastic), Mandrakes, Grotesques, Warp Beasts, Warriors, Hellions, Scourges (though I don't mind them) and Talos (I think this looks fine, but a plastic kit with some more features would be nice).

The Incubi, Raider and Jetbikes I adore, I think those three are some of the finest models in the whole 40K range.

Rules:
Lord - More options, essentially just broaden the wargear selections.
Haemonculus - Largely same thing, I think also maybe specialise them a bit more. Perhaps something about limiting the army selections that are connected with them. I.e. you can only take one unit of Grotesques/Talos for each Haemonculus, something along those basic lines.
Incubi - Nothing wrong here, as far as I can see.
Wyches - Again, largely okay thanks to the rules update they got a while back.
Grotesques - Need a revamp, just to make them useful. I've no idea what to suggest, just that they need an overhaul.
Mandrakes - Streamline their deployment rules somewhat, and overall just make them more effective. I mean they're supposedly the vicious psychos among a race of vicious psychos, so I'd vote for a big stat boost, make them something to be feared like Genestealers.
Warp Beasts - The unit size is far too small right now, and image-wise I think they need to be a bit more defined. Maybe give them some variation options, in the same vein as Chaos Possessed.
Warriors - I think they work alright. Comparatively, they're currently perhaps too effective, in that they're often better overall than the elites, but I see that as more of a problem with those "elites". I'd strongly go against any cry for them to be made closer to Eldar guardians, since that misses the point of what they are.
Jetbikes - As people have said, they need more emphasis on being super-fast, now that turbo-boost isn't exclusive.
Hellions - As with Grotesques, just make them useful and distinct as a unit.
Scourges - More options would be nice. I'm torn about the concept of giving them the option to be assault armed instead, but it's a possibility.
Raider/Ravager - Just some vehicle options would do the job.
Talos - Can't see an awful lot wrong, but I hardly use it so I'm not sure.

Another thing I've always wanted for the Dark Eldar, and always use as a house rule: allow them to fight at night. Reading the background it makes perfect sense, since the emphasis is on them striking out of the dark, always choosing when to attack, etc. Just something to emphasise how Dark Eldar are usually the ones with the element of surprise, and the ones to choose how, when and where to fight. Night fighting just seems to suit them.

EDIT:
For Warriors, perhaps they could have Kroot Rifles. i.e. +1 A from their spiky rifles.

I'm fairly certain that since their last update they do have that rule now. So if you've been playing them without it, make sure to remember it for future, because they're not playing to full legal effectiveness ;)

Warlord Kyle
28-01-2007, 04:37
Where did u see this update about the +1 attack with splinter rifles?
I haven't seen it in the codex or else where.

Arch-Traitor Horus
28-01-2007, 04:50
A incubi master model and weapon options for mandrakes and new lord

Tymell
28-01-2007, 05:19
Where did u see this update about the +1 attack with splinter rifles?
I haven't seen it in the codex or else where.

I seem to recall it being included in the update they received in White Dwarf a few years back. Can't remember the exact issue, but it was the June issue with the release of Hordes of Chaos. Maybe I'm just imagining it, but I have a recollection of it.

malika
28-01-2007, 05:27
What about instead of a mini titan they would have flyers or some larger raider like vehicle?

Hellfury
28-01-2007, 05:38
well since the anti grav ability of the talos stands for nothing, it would be nice if they just made an upgrade sprue for the wraithlord. I remeber about almost 10 yrs ago a poster made a "Darkwraith" rules that made alot of sense and was a good stand in for a talos.

Rules for mandrakes that are commenserate with their points. The neato infiltrate ability they get now doesnt mean squat when they are 15 points a piece. I like the earlier idea of poison blades and a mandrake lord. A model and better rules for the decapitator would be good as well.

Better rules for jetbikes. Hit and run would be great, but for 30pts, they better be classified as "eldar jetbikes".

I love scourges, but as it stands right now, they are basically just an expensive WWP deliverysystem.

Rules for the HQ section need to be tweaked badly. I like how the eldar can have warlockunit and a farseer as the same HQ choice, but seperate units. This could work for the haemonculous if they allowed more than three haemonculous for such a unit.

Ravagers are pretty solid.

Better rules for grotesques.

Model wise I would like to see plastic warriors (made by Jes Goodwin with better sculpts please, this would allow the creation of mandrakes, scourges, etc from a single basic infantry sprue), plastic wyches, plastic talos, plastic jump pack upgrade sprue for warriors to make scourges, plastic raider (new sculpt please, the old sculpt never did sit well with me, aesthetically) and new metal models for grotesques, warpbeasts, and special characters (kruellagh the vile....blech).

Oh and sack Gary Morley. That dude has no business behind a sculpting tool. He has had a free ride with GW for long enough.

toxic_wisdom
28-01-2007, 05:39
Harliequinns for Dark Eldar.

Already en route to the new DE codex.
Codex: Eldar makes a reference to this.

toxic_wisdom
28-01-2007, 05:49
HQ Changes:


Scourge Wings... Powerful Pistol... Incubi Armor...

-- We already have Hellion Skyboards
-- Leave the shooting for infantry
-- 3+ save would negate fleet of foot

Sgt Biffo
28-01-2007, 06:18
What about instead of a mini titan they would have flyers or some larger raider like vehicle?

What about something like the Protoss Carrier from Starcraft (I'm going to assume most people know what I'm talking about here), only instead of attack drones there is a multitude of smaller Talos like constructs that carry live victims back to the mother ships holding cell...

toxic_wisdom
28-01-2007, 06:21
I'm not a firm believer that DE need a new codex ( new faq perhaps ) - the current one still provides a very competive list, even by fourth edition standards. And not to mention the fact there are others more deserving.

However, in the interest of this topic I believe the only proper way of introducing a new Dark Eldar Codex would be using Codex: Eldar and Codex: Chaos Space Marines as reference material.

-- Codex: Eldar --

Okay, the layout is a bit odd but I like the way the armoury is essentially removed. Wargear and weapon options are listed per unit type. One thing I hate seeing right now is an Archite ( wych cult ) equipped with a Punisher ( kabal ). Or even better considering the anti-association, Haemonculi on Reaver jetbikes.

-- Codex: Chaos Space Marines --

The four factions of Commorragh need to be expanded, much like the Books of Chaos - Kabals, Cults, Legions, and Covens should have their own ruleset whereas the current edition Codex kinda puts them in an Undivided range.

TzarNikolai
28-01-2007, 10:31
I'm not a firm believer that DE need a new codex ( new faq perhaps ) - the current one still provides a very competive list, even by fourth edition standards. And not to mention the fact there are others more deserving.
sort of. the DE army is great to play with and can be very competetive. the problem i have is breaking out of the rut that i seem to have whenever i write an army list, in that they all look pretty similar.

still, i would rather have a new book later rather than sooner so there's more time for me to enjoy playing with my dark eldar before the design team get their sticky hands on it and make wyches 20 points each, sniper squads 150 points etc.

as for improvements:

HQ
lords/wych lords
all of them seem to be built around the same formula of SF, drugs either agoniser ot T.helm and maybe a bike or skyboard. i think we could do with some more choice for varieties sake.
haemonculi
they don't really seem to do much. their destructors are kinda fun but i think they could support the army a bit more. sort of like if you join them to a squad they could pump your warriors full of drugs or something. provide some synergy.
incubi
the assault weapons and incubi master upgrade are kinda useless. not sure what can be done about that

elites
mandrakes
seem a bit too expensive for what they do but i haven't really tried them out yet so reserve judgement
wyches
perfect but i'm fed up of hearing cries of cheese. really not sure what you can do about it though. maybe make them more expensive (and i'm talking about around a point at the most). and give them wych weapons as standard (paid for obviously).
oh. and definately clear up the wording on wych weapons so we don't get 4 page topics on whether they work both ways.
warp beasts
bring the beastmaster in line with wyches. (dodge save).

troops
warriors
seem fine. maybe allow raider squads to take an assault rifle or ccw+pistol for +1pt.

fast attack
reavers
tbh i think they can do with an extra attack. chaos get an extra attack for having some extra spikes but DE piloting a flying razor blade don't.:rolleyes:
naturally this should make them cost more... the problem is they used to be special but now that everyone gets to turboboost they're not. they could do with a hit and run or something.
hellions
a rapid fire weapon on an assault unit seems a good place to start. how about why is it there? they're blatantly overcosted and their might +1S doesn't really alleviate the problem. start from the ground up i'd say don't change them, just come up with brand new rules for them.

heavy support
ravagers
seem great. maybe give them the option to take twinlinked splinter cannons instead so we can have some anti hordes punch.
taloi
they're directly competing with ravagers and sadly their lacking. and why don't they come with a pair of claws each? i do't want that stupid drilly thing, i want another claw!
scourges
against conventional wisdom GW gave them heavy weapons. they need to somehow maintain their mneuverability and still be offensive on the same turn.

webway
this gets its own section. and my only comment would be: clear up the wording!

the problem i envisage with all of these is that if you bump everything the end result is that the codex gets complained about because everything is too good. i think they did a great job with eldar and wouldn't mnd one of those jobs here. most things got pumped (some are still lacking, like banshees which lost out to the new harlies) and the most broken things got taken down a notch. (or got rid of completely, like seer councils and ranger disruption)
end result was a great book.


edit: and my suggested improvement aren't free. just haven't really considered points costs for everything

Lurcio
28-01-2007, 10:41
Can't really see the new codex allowing variant army lists for DE though. So a possible solution would be Wyches and Grotesques becoming troop choices....and their now vacant elite slots taken by Harlequins and maybe 0-1 Incubi (niiiice). That way themed factional armies could still exist.

Sgt Biffo
28-01-2007, 11:07
I can see the "Furious Charge" rule inplace of the current stuff for Hellions.

WhatsHisName
28-01-2007, 12:15
i think the changes are fairly simple make everything worth wile to take because now they are not.

make mandrakes harder in combat (we all know they can get there but never seem to do anything when they ar there)

not quite sure what to do about grosescs (spelling) or scourges as to me they are both prity pointless, unless they make scourges move ad shoot with all there weapons and goive them more choices for weapons.

yer i agree with reavers with hit and run

i love the idea of hellions but they are so bad but yet again dont know what would mak ethem better.
martin

Stingray_tm
28-01-2007, 12:30
Also, feel free to say what models you thing need to be redone.


All of them. The DE product line just looks horrible...

Achilles
28-01-2007, 13:04
I'm fairly certain that since their last update they do have that rule now. So if you've been playing them without it, make sure to remember it for future, because they're not playing to full legal effectiveness ;)

As it should be, but it is only in the KROOT MERCENARY LIST that KROOT get a +1 att for a splinter rifle. Dark eldar however do not... Not in any of the articles about them, not in the Codex 'Second edition' 2.0...

Modelwise most, if not all of them, need an update. some look really good, but are to static (incubi), others are just plain ugly (wyches... who else uses fantasy witch elves?).

-Reaver jetbikes & hellions should both get Hit & run, and maybe both Furious charge.
-Splinter rifles should give +1 attack to models on foot (as the reavers have splinter rifles to) and maybe made assault 1. Just to be different from hellguns, f.e.
-Assault weapons for Scourges? maybe. Cheaper? Deffinatly.
-Some cool new items & wargear for lords. and yes, Incubi Armour. Just so your unit looks cool and you have an 'Incubi Lord'. Dont include the Tormentor helm & punisher though. An an Invulnerable save other then the Shadow field.
-More Pinning/fear causing weapons... weapons that cause 'Entangeld'(see vehicle damage chart).
-Talos is fine as is, but should be a normal Monstrous Creature against vehicles. Weapon upgrades.
-More 'Pit' Creatures for the Wych army list. move Warp beasts to Fast attack, lose their 'free elites' rule. Add a heavy support monster, with handlers (hydra anyone?). although it should be nothing like a Talos.
-Give mandrakes a Champ and give them Deep Strike, Infiltrate, and may assault after deep strike.

and Nightfight as basic is very cool. they used to be 'always the attacker' (well they still are but dont play many battles which have an attacker). then give em upgrades(purchaseable, not free) to overcome their own nightfight.

just my 2 cents.

malika
28-01-2007, 17:52
-- Codex: Eldar --

Okay, the layout is a bit odd but I like the way the armoury is essentially removed. Wargear and weapon options are listed per unit type. One thing I hate seeing right now is an Archite ( wych cult ) equipped with a Punisher ( kabal ). Or even better considering the anti-association, Haemonculi on Reaver jetbikes.

How is a Punisher a Kabal exclusive weapon? I dont see why a Haemonculi couldnt ride some heavily modified jetbike. I think the Dark Eldar would be way more liberal than their Craftworld counterparts.



-- Codex: Chaos Space Marines --

The four factions of Commorragh need to be expanded, much like the Books of Chaos - Kabals, Cults, Legions, and Covens should have their own ruleset whereas the current edition Codex kinda puts them in an Undivided range.
I thought the Dark Eldar had three factions, the Warrior Kabals, the Wych Cults and Haemonculi Covens. What are these Legions? And what do the Chaos Space Marines have to do with this?

I would also like to see more webway oriented warfare, so units opening small webway portals on the battlefield, sort of like a deep strike. might be cool for some units.

Sgt Biffo
28-01-2007, 22:29
And what do the Chaos Space Marines have to do with this?

Not to answer for toxic_wisdom, but he did point out the "Books of Chaos" concept in the CSM codex. I guess that the idea is if you take a leader of one particular type (master homoculus for example) then associated units become troops (talos/grotesques).

toxic_wisdom
29-01-2007, 01:45
Not to answer for toxic_wisdom, but he did point out the "Books of Chaos" concept in the CSM codex. I guess that the idea is if you take a leader of one particular type (master homoculus for example) then associated units become troops (talos/grotesques).

Thanx... exactly.

Kabal - Archons and Dracons - Warriors are troops
Coven - Haemonculi Master - Grotesques are troops
Legion - Mandrake Master - Mandrakes are troops
Cult - Archites and Dracites - Wyches are troops

Some units above would be able to crossover as an Elite choice for the other factions.


How is a Punisher a Kabal exclusive weapon?

-- Because the only model equipped with it naturally is an Incubi ( bodyguard for an Archon or Dracon ).


I dont see why a Haemonculi couldnt ride some heavily modified jetbike.

-- Because the jetbikes are a subsect of Wych Cults. And Covens and Cults do not mingle.

toxic_wisdom
29-01-2007, 02:22
webway - this gets its own section. and my only comment would be: clear up the wording!

-- What's wrong with the wording? Simple piece of wargear with clear rules per codex and faq.


move Warp beasts to Fast attack, lose their 'free elites' rule

-- They are a Fast Attack per standard foc. The difference in a Wych Cult is that you can purchase them as a freebie as well in relation to your troops. Thus a Cult with three Wych troop units can field three Beast Packs as a free foc selection -plus- field up to three more as a Fast Attack.

Orbital
29-01-2007, 03:09
Sorry for the slight off-topic question, but is there a place where I can peruse the current Dark Eldar rumors (even if they're not that reliable yet)?

The Dude
29-01-2007, 03:36
Sorry for the slight off-topic question, but is there a place where I can peruse the current Dark Eldar rumors (even if they're not that reliable yet)?

There really aren't any Orbital.

You could try a search in Rumours, but I don't like your chances. The most reliable thing out there is that they will get access to Harlequins.

malika
29-01-2007, 04:22
Thanx... exactly.

Kabal - Archons and Dracons - Warriors are troops
Coven - Haemonculi Master - Grotesques are troops
Legion - Mandrake Master - Mandrakes are troops
Cult - Archites and Dracites - Wyches are troops

did you make up the name Legion yourself for the Mandrakes? I dont think each unit would need its own full factions. I mean the Warriors, Haemonculi and Wyches are very mixed as in that the Kabals could be seen as Houses sort of which could have their own Haemonculi and Wyches working for them. But it could also be that a powerful Haemonculi Coven has their own warriors. I wouldnt seperate these things too much.


Because the only model equipped with it naturally is an Incubi ( bodyguard for an Archon or Dracon ).[quote]
Meh, wargame logic...perhaps Lords also shouldnt be able to take Helion boards because only Helions have them.

[quote]Because the jetbikes are a subsect of Wych Cults. And Covens and Cults do not mingle.
Where did you get that from? And where is it stated that only the Wych Cults would have Jetbikes in Dark Eldar society? :eyebrows:

toxic_wisdom
29-01-2007, 04:47
did you make up the name Legion yourself for the Mandrakes?

-- Nope. Heard it used numerous times from various sources - de fans, games day, tournaments, medusa v, gw forums, etc. Typically referred to as a Legion of Drakes ( aka spy network ).

@malika - please read your de codex carefully. you're asking silly questions.

Achilles
29-01-2007, 09:41
-- They are a Fast Attack per standard foc. The difference in a Wych Cult is that you can purchase them as a freebie as well in relation to your troops. Thus a Cult with three Wych troop units can field three Beast Packs as a free foc selection -plus- field up to three more as a Fast Attack.

No they are not. they are elites. you normally get one for a free slot if you have wyches. just one.
a wych cult gives u one per wych squad. in a free slot.

i suggest moving them to Fast Attack alltogether. and lose the 'Free slot' Rule

The Army book would also need one entry in each of elites, hq, Fast attack & heavy support for each fation.

Incubi & Mandrakes should NOT be a Faction

toxic_wisdom
29-01-2007, 11:31
No they are not. they are elites.

Doh... I must be on combat drugs. Warp Beasts are Elite. In the process of writing an experimental DE Codex, I managed to somehow convince myself they are Fast Attack ( where I placed them ).

Ooops... Sorry

Time to stop reading my codex as a reference, and grap the codex from downstairs. btw - look for the experimental dex in about a week.

Sgt Biffo
29-01-2007, 12:46
i suggest moving them to Fast Attack alltogether. and lose the 'Free slot' Rule

Though the Fast attack for Dark Eldar is sorely lacking (lets face it every choice bar elites is sorely lacking:( ) I feel that Warp beasts would be less used if they were to actually take up a slot.

Being able to take additional packs for slots might work a little better(?).



I'd like to see different Mandrakes too. Perhaps something along the lines of the Temple of Assassins the Imperium has.

Or maybe a kind of "buld your own" Legion. Of course Legion factions would never work together openly (its Dark Eldar after all), so you could only have one type of "custom" Mandrake.

Captain Micha
29-01-2007, 13:17
plastic minis all the way around. (with updates to that stupid look) Its bad when the Tau guy looks more like a real man with his minis than the dark supposedly sinister corrupt dark eldar. (They look more like emo dar rejects let alone the **** poor quality of the minis themselves)

please dear god change the raiders looks. change just about everything. it all looks so bad.

rulewise no clue. as I have never played vs dark emo space elves. I have only seen the minis on the site.

AUN'SHI
29-01-2007, 14:40
I'd like to see ALL Dark Edar models changes they all basically suck. I'd like to see the special character Arhara the father of scorpions put in. WH that guy is soooo cool why don't you add him. Instead of the little blurb in the Eldar codex:confused:

The DE should go away from weird evil looking to sleek evil looking. Like the grotesques, and those guys that wear flesh on their faces have to go. They are Eldar after all right?

Those weird looking dogs they have is a pretty decent idea but they should get some sort of 5+ invulnesable save cause of the warp. I mean who would use those guys they are real easy to kill.

IMHO the whole books needs to be redone. new rules, new models new characters except the incubi they are awsome (new incubi models would be great) And you should be a ble to use more then one unit of them. Make them elite or soemthing.

Tymell
29-01-2007, 15:44
While most of the Dark Eldar minis are indeed badly in need of an update, I've never understood complaints about their general imagery. They are supposed to be dark and twisted, and the spikes and sleek blades motif suits that perfectly. And the themes of S&M also fit perfectly: the Dark Eldar are supposed to be hedonists, experimenting with the senses and indulging themselves in any way they see fit. There are definitely some things in there that just don't fit, but mostly it seems fine in that respect.

I especially fail to see the apparently "emo" look of them, and I really don't know where on earth that claim comes from. There is a big difference between dark and gothic and emo. I am most definitely not the sort of person who uses "emo" as an insult, or typecasts people in such a way, but there is a distinct image and style that goes with the term, and I see no signs of it among the Dark Eldar.

There are gothic aspects, yes, but this is not the same thing. And after all, one of the core aspects and attractions of the 40K universe is it's gothic imagery. If that sort of thing doesn't appeal to you it's probably not the game for you. Eqaully, if the theme of the Dark Eldar doesn't appeal for whatever reasons, then they're probably not a race you should play.

Orbital
29-01-2007, 15:48
I'm with you on that, Tymell. We have gigantic He-men (Space Marines) and Skeletors (Chaos) wielding giant axes and guns and physically-impossible-to-lift metal fists. I'm happy to see alternatives within the visual identity of this game which explore icons and themes which aren't part of the mainstream.

intellectawe
29-01-2007, 16:02
I like the DE models as is except for Grotesques. They need a change.

Rules wise, some units need updates, while others need to stay exactly the same.

kenny3760
29-01-2007, 16:15
I would like to see an update on the WWP. If you deploy 2 then they form a conduit through which only the DE can pass.
Entering it is the same as embarcation onto a vehicle. Moving through it takes full movement phase but you can fleet and assault out the other end. Seems completely fluffy to me. Can't begin to think of a points cost for this but would enable the DE to become even faster.

Mandrakes need to become the CC maters they are supposed to be, perhaps rending or toxic blades, and a squad leader.

Reavers to get assault phase move and other weapon options, ie splinter cannons, disintegrator.

Disintegrator to be available to troops as a weapon choice.

Scourges to become an assault based unit and a new heavy support choice to be made. Indirect firing large blast template pinning type bomb, pins everything including fearless units etc but causes no casualties.

Marinox
29-01-2007, 16:47
to just put my voice in with the white noise i say this:

lords are fine in the rules, they just need new models. though i like the incubi armor idea.

incubi i think are fine, the incubi master on the other hand could use some help. either more wounds or lower point cost.

wytches - no beef there.

warp beasts - need to have deamon like stats. a 5+ inv is a must. summoning them would be pretty sweet too.

grotesques were cool in 3rd ed when you couldn't shoot past them. line them up in a meat wall and march forward. i have 30 of them that have been on the shelf since 4th ed. i havn't played my "coven" army since. i would say they need to be completely reinvented.

mandrakes are cool. they have their place but they're more of a gimick than effective. if i'm playing to win, they're not in my army. give them rending and they go to a truely effective unit.

warriors - i'm with everyone else. just give em the option for splinter pistol CCW and i've got no beef. a squad that was able to infiltrate would be nice too. i never understood why DE of ALL armies can't infiltrate.

jetbikes - 2 handed weapons like EVERY OTHER ARMY would be nice. hit and run might be too much.

hellions need ALOT of help. an assault weapon would be nice. i like the furios charge idea. with these guys i always thought it might be cool to force them to deepstrike, but let them assault the turn they do. just a thought.

talos - no beef

ravager - 12 front armor too much to ask?

scourges, poor scourges. personally, 95% of dark eldar armies i see (including mine) take 2 "sniper" squads of warriors with 2 dark lances. why not just let the scourges fill this roll? let them split up like the Dangles can now so they only fill 1 slot.

that's where i come out.

Tymell
29-01-2007, 16:52
Thanks for the agreement, Orbital :)

To address some of kenny's points, I agree on Mandrakes needing an upgrade. Right now they're just plain not useful enough. Their stats aren't very impressive and with a comparatively low number of attacks and no special attributes on those attacks they rarely do a lot on their own. I only ever really find them useful at supporting another assault unit, and since they're competing for those valuable elite slots they're made even less appealing.

I'd suggest upgrading their WS to 5 for one thing. Personally I see DE Warriors at a mid-way point between Eldar Guardians and Aspect Warriors in terms of ability: they're more skilled than just civilians, but don't devote themselves to constant training as Aspect Warriors do. As such I think their stats are fine. But Mandrakes are supposed to be a step above that, with a deep craving for killing beyond even normal Dark Eldar. I know that WS4 is not, as some think, an average, that's just a view too often accepted because of the prominence of Space Marines. It represents a great deal of skill. But nevertheless, Eldar are superhuman in that respect, and so WS5 is by no means unreasonable.

I'd say the same for Wyches. Being essentially gladiators, they devote their entire lives to combat and training, and face a large variety of creatures.

I'm not so sure about giving Reaver Jetbikes the option of splinter cannons and disintegrators though. They're too much heavy weapons for super-fast jetbikes.

And finally, on more of a background-ish note, I've always wanted to see the Talos Sting weapon be made into a kind of Harlequin's Kiss. I just like the idea of it being the same kind of monofilament-wire-uncoiling-inside-stomach-ripping-victim-apart weapon :evilgrin:

EDIT: And to a few of Marinox' points:


mandrakes are cool. they have their place but they're more of a gimick than effective. if i'm playing to win, they're not in my army. give them rending and they go to a truely effective unit.

I'm not sure...while rending sounds suitable, I'm just cautious about it becoming too common in 40K, too much of an upgrade that gets given to a lot of assault-orienteted units by default, kind of thing.


warriors - i'm with everyone else. just give em the option for splinter pistol CCW and i've got no beef. a squad that was able to infiltrate would be nice too. i never understood why DE of ALL armies can't infiltrate.

A good point about infiltrate, and one that hadn't struck me previously. Heck, if Night Lords get it, why can't Dark Eldar?


hellions need ALOT of help. an assault weapon would be nice. i like the furios charge idea. with these guys i always thought it might be cool to force them to deepstrike, but let them assault the turn they do. just a thought.

I also agree with the Furious Charge concept, just to give Hellions a boost and help them stand out if nothing else.

AUN'SHI
29-01-2007, 17:32
While most of the Dark Eldar minis are indeed badly in need of an update, I've never understood complaints about their general imagery. They are supposed to be dark and twisted, and the spikes and sleek blades motif suits that perfectly. And the themes of S&M also fit perfectly: the Dark Eldar are supposed to be hedonists, experimenting with the senses and indulging themselves in any way they see fit. There are definitely some things in there that just don't fit, but mostly it seems fine in that respect.

I especially fail to see the apparently "emo" look of them, and I really don't know where on earth that claim comes from. There is a big difference between dark and gothic and emo. I am most definitely not the sort of person who uses "emo" as an insult, or typecasts people in such a way, but there is a distinct image and style that goes with the term, and I see no signs of it among the Dark Eldar.

There are gothic aspects, yes, but this is not the same thing. And after all, one of the core aspects and attractions of the 40K universe is it's gothic imagery. If that sort of thing doesn't appeal to you it's probably not the game for you. Eqaully, if the theme of the Dark Eldar doesn't appeal for whatever reasons, then they're probably not a race you should play.


ummm.... Ok well those were my thought on how I'd like to see them. Just as I'm sure anyone who had a similar or different thought. I think it's totaly fine for people to give their own opnion.

I agree if they are not your style don't play them. I'm sure a good portion of people that give their opnion or how they'd like to see the DE probably don't even play DE.

I'm a Tau Player hence the name:)

But In regards to the quote I think it's completly fine for people to give their own opnion hence the discussion board.

But hell thats only what I think.

For the Greater Good

Captain Micha
29-01-2007, 18:51
I am fine with them being s&m. but at least update the plastics for cripes sakes. I think one of my biggest problems is the warriors. Something just seems stupid about them. Not very terrifying or s&m ish for that matter. its more of a mini quality issue. It just does not portray the remnants of eldar civilisation that well. or anything else well for that matter.

Marinox
29-01-2007, 20:00
I'd say the same for Wyches. Being essentially gladiators, they devote their entire lives to combat and training, and face a large variety of creatures.

i'm down with the WS 5 business, i don't think GW will never let that happen. (at least not for mandrakes/warriors). but wytches i COMPLETLEY agree should be WS 5. except that makes the +1WS drug pointless.

and as far as the look of them go. yeah, they need an update. in the case of some models they need an update BAD. but i don't think they look terrible. i was painting reaper mini's for DnD, and the Incubi model is what got me into this game in the first place. that's hands down the most B.A. model in the game.

my only real problem is with all the thongs. do you have any idea how much man-ass i've painted? the wytch sqads were enough. everyone else is wearing tights...

darknar
29-01-2007, 21:59
Dark Eldar need to be compleatly rethought.


im thinking units almost as specilised as harlquins.

units of say. 5 to 8 warriors with splinter rifles that are assalt 2 and always wound on a 4+. with a couple special weapon troupers and a leader. all armed with shadowfeilds 5+ coversave splinter pistols and close combat weapons. plasma grenades haywire grenades with current statline all for a nice round cost of 25 points per warrior.

the unit would of course be expensive but extreamly versitile. however still extramly fragile. so you need to think alot about your stratagie.

this being the basic "troops" of choice.


more units that are very fragile. but when they hit they do a fair bit of damage but wont last long. ie. units that get 4 attacks on the charge but normaly only 1 attack. hellions would be perfect for that.

what i would also like to see is some kind of slave type of unit. (eldar/human/tau/enslaved beasts and other aliens) that could act like cannon fodder



dark eldar force should be even smaller than marine forces. however there stratagie should make the enemy feel outnumberd.

GraveDancer
29-01-2007, 22:26
i dunno if anyone's mentioned this, but i would've thought it'd be more important to develop the history of the DE before sussing out changes - adding more fluff and shaping their current incarnation would then lead to how they'd work on the field and set a precedant as to what units to add, alter or adapt.

i haven't read the DE codex myself, but what is their ties to Slaanesh if any? personally it'd make sense to me to make that connection with chaos. and not to just make them a version of chaos marines, hell no - but imagine how much dark and brutal the currents unit would look adapted to the slaanesh aesthetic. maybe not make their connection as obvious as by giving them access to daemon units and powers, but i still reckon it could work

malika
29-01-2007, 23:12
I would like to see some background material on them which is more than merely "oh we are so evil muahahahha and yes we like S&M muahhaahhahahahahahahah spikes so big that I decapitate my squad when I turn around muahaha so evil yah spank me baby!!!"

:rolleyes:

Sgt Biffo
30-01-2007, 00:48
And the themes of S&M also fit perfectly: the Dark Eldar are supposed to be hedonists

I see them more as nihilist. Nothing they do can make any difference to their ultimate fate and the only way they try to express themselves is with destruction.


There is a big difference between dark and gothic and emo.

Not really relevant to 40k maybe more so on a music/subculture forum. I also think that people who make said "emo" remarks are just baiting DE players. Try not to bite.


There are gothic aspects, yes, but this is not the same thing. And after all, one of the core aspects and attractions of the 40K universe is it's gothic imagery. If that sort of thing doesn't appeal to you it's probably not the game for you. Eqaully, if the theme of the Dark Eldar doesn't appeal for whatever reasons, then they're probably not a race you should play.

Well said! There plenty of races out there that should suit almost ever type of player.

The Dude
30-01-2007, 01:02
I see them more as nihilist.

Nihilists. *****! Say what you will about the tenets of National Socialism, at least it's an ethos.

http://images.quizilla.com/A/Alkaline154/1047281197_uresWalter.JPG

:D

Sgt Biffo
30-01-2007, 06:01
Nihilists. *****! Say what you will about the tenets of National Socialism, at least it's an ethos.

http://images.quizilla.com/A/Alkaline154/1047281197_uresWalter.JPG

:D

Who's the goose in the picture?

National socialism in Germany did take (neatly abridged) Nietsche horribly out of context, but thats about as close as the two got as to my knowledge.

And if your that desperate for an ethos, I think I'll sit on the fence a bit longer and see what else comes along...:angel:

noneedforaname
30-01-2007, 08:01
@grave dancer

DE do not have any connection to chaos as such. The eldar refer to slaanesh as "she who thirsts" this is because she is slowly draining away there souls. To replace what they loose they feed on the "soul essence" of others and improve the flavour and potency by overstimulating the victim in always including pain and pleasure. The dark eldar do not use the eldar paths to restrain there wilder behaviour and easily give in to there urges and are very fatalistic as they know that eventually slaanesh will claim there soul for eternity as they do not use soulstones to save there souls when they die.

malika
30-01-2007, 10:21
GW has been vague on the soul tihng, on one hand they say that the DE need to eat souls to survive, but on the other hand its also mentioned that they give Slaanesh the souls of others to distract herr. So would they do both?


Who's the goose in the picture?
John Goodman, he played Walter in The Big Lebowski


National socialism in Germany did take (neatly abridged) Nietsche horribly out of context, but thats about as close as the two got as to my knowledge.

The whole Nazi idea of the ubermensch had nothing to do with Nietzsche. The Nazis believed it had a biological basis (white man with big forehead, blue eyes and blonde hair) while Nietzsche believed the ubermensch was a creature who no longer needed God or whoever else to create his own morality.

Marinox
30-01-2007, 15:33
personally i like the idea of keeping the DE vague. i mean their whole point is fear of the shadows and if you shed too much light on them they loose their whole feel.

for me at least, i don't want a never ending crusade, or a greater ideology, or in service to any one/thing. for me, i like the idea that they do it because they like to do it. there's no bargaining with them, no buying them off, they are just the representation of pure evil madness.

i say keep them mysterious and spoken in whispers. and the whole drowning out of slaneesh with the torture of souls is just window dressing for me.

Tymell
30-01-2007, 16:45
@AUN'SHI - You're right, and are certainly entitled to your opinion :) If I sounded like I was trying to stop people having them, then I apologise for phrasing things badly. All I mean is that I can't see the basis for claims such as "Dark Eldar are emo Eldar", and equally it is my opinion that such claims don't make sense. But as I say, if someone does feel Dark Eldar have a bad image, I'd simply suggest not playing them.

With regards to the whole debate about their background or image, I'd say I think things are good as they are. I wouldn't oppose adding more background material, but I don't think they're any worse off without it. As with Marinox, I like the way they are now: not on a grand crusade or mission, but just simply doing what they want because they want to. I think it adds a nice variant to the races. I've never seen the Dark Eldar as nihilist as such, because to me that sounds too...can't think of the right word :p Too accepting really, too depressed.

To me, the Dark Eldar are very vibrant and lively, because they enjoy what they do. While it may well be true that nothing they can do can change their ultimate fate, such is the case of all races, the Dark Eldar don't seem to dwell on it any more than any other race. In fact, the Craftworld Eldar seem far more concerned with their ultimate end than their dark counterparts. I always think of the Dark Eldar as just out to do as they please. They accept that laws are artificial constructs, that ultimately anyone can do anything they please, they merely have to live with the consequences. And so the Dark Eldar do. There is no concept of right and wrong, because if no one can stop them, then that's that: they can't stop them. It's personified in a quote I seem to recall from them when one person questioned their ways by saying "Why do you do this?" and the Dark Eldar responded with "Why not?" That's the way they seem (IMO) to see things. The pain of others means nothing to them, they have totally given in to their selfish desires, desires that we all have deep down. Essentially a take on the "survival of the fittest" outlook. They see nothing wrong in that because it's just the way they are, and they make no attempt to hide it.

That's what I like about them: they don't do anything "for the greater good", for the survival of their species, for conquest or power or wealth: they do what they do because they want to, because it makes them feel good. I don't feel there's any aspect of "I'm so evil!" in them, because they don't do it to seem evil, they just happen to have given in to their base desires, and doing so is something that we are all taught is inherently wrong.

Lurcio
30-01-2007, 17:18
One way to distinguish DE from other armies might be to give them the good old Tactical Withdrawal special rule...after all their troops have Black Guardian(ish) stat lines.....and DE players may be able to welcome all those disaffected USF players into the fold. It'd be very fluffy as DE are all about hard and fast strikes, not holding ground.

superknijn
30-01-2007, 17:36
So are the Tau, and you don't see them having any special rules for that.
(Although I have to admit that Kauyon is not very mobile, and some variants are concerned with enemies coming towards you)

There, ofcourse, really is a reason why the Dark Eldar do the way they do(Slaanesh, remember?), although I'm sure that they don't do it solely out of need.

AUN'SHI
30-01-2007, 21:40
To be perfectly honest Id really like to see Arhara the Father of scorpions.

Tymell you raise some very good points that I can fuly agree with :)

IMO I'd think the DE should maybe have a little of both the "s&m" look and the sleek eldar look. I think this time around they can do some work on the ravagers. Maybe giving them a few more Vehicle choices.

Also they could give them a cooler drednaught something cool. I kinda like the pirate idea but all the models have to be re-done. I'm sorry if anyone feels differently but they just suck IMO.

I like to see a bigger emphasis on the Incubi (cause they are awsome) and maybe give their warriors a few more weapon choice (some other heavys, and regular guns ex pulse rifle/pulse carbine) Just something to make them a little more versitle.

But the main thing Re do the models..... All of them but that just me:angel:

For the Greater Good

Sgt Biffo
30-01-2007, 22:30
The whole Nazi idea of the ubermensch had nothing to do with Nietzsche.

I guess I was thinking more of Nietzche's "Beautiful blonde haired warrior's". You know; Vikings, Celts, Mongols, Samurai...

...But this is getting way off topic.

GraveDancer
30-01-2007, 23:05
@grave dancer

DE do not have any connection to chaos as such. The eldar refer to slaanesh as "she who thirsts" this is because she is slowly draining away there souls. To replace what they loose they feed on the "soul essence" of others and improve the flavour and potency by overstimulating the victim in always including pain and pleasure. The dark eldar do not use the eldar paths to restrain there wilder behaviour and easily give in to there urges and are very fatalistic as they know that eventually slaanesh will claim there soul for eternity as they do not use soulstones to save there souls when they die.

i still reckon a closer link to slaanesh would work wonders though - give them a greater amount of fluff to draw on and a more decisive motive to tangle with the eldar and imperium, as opposed to just getting their sick kicks out of it

GraveDancer
30-01-2007, 23:09
The whole Nazi idea of the ubermensch had nothing to do with Nietzsche. The Nazis believed it had a biological basis (white man with big forehead, blue eyes and blonde hair) while Nietzsche believed the ubermensch was a creature who no longer needed God or whoever else to create his own morality.


but didn't the nazis get their concepts of the ubermensch from nietzsche anyways? i understand they completely misinterpreted what he meant - saying that the ubermensch was someone who constantly changed and developed, as well as discarding the idea of God

GraveDancer
30-01-2007, 23:12
oh and to the person who reckoned they were nihlists, i'm going to contest that; they're definately sado-masochists

lord_blackfang
30-01-2007, 23:14
For some reason I get the feeling the new DE are going to look a lot like Wraith from SG:Atlantis.

The_Outsider
30-01-2007, 23:29
Update the fluff, just give them the style of gothicness that is the trend in the latest codexes.

I'd like to see more emphasis on USR's, infiltrate for warriors would be nice but i'm not so sure.

The +1A for spikey is a must.

WS5 wyches would be cool, but they'd have to go up a few points.

Incubi master needs to be +10 pts.

Hellions need furious charge no question (in additio to hit and run) - makes them the ultimate harassment unit.

Scourges...a real point of contention, IMO the scouts USR would be nice (helps offset their stupid cost and heavy weapons) but I really don't know.

Thats just a few of my thoughts.

Rioghan Murchadha
30-01-2007, 23:42
fewer ridiculous spikes on everything, and the warriors need to ditch the goofy hats that are nearly as tall as they are..

The Dude
30-01-2007, 23:56
Who's the goose in the picture?

Him? He’s a Fu*kin’ veteran! :D


That's what I like about them: they don't do anything "for the greater good", for the survival of their species, for conquest or power or wealth: they do what they do because they want to, because it makes them feel good. I don't feel there's any aspect of "I'm so evil!" in them, because they don't do it to seem evil, they just happen to have given in to their base desires, and doing so is something that we are all taught is inherently wrong.

They really need to emphasise this capriciousness. Anyone who’s read Terry Pratchett’s Lords and Ladies will know exactly how the Dark Eldar should act.


fewer ridiculous spikes on everything, and the warriors need to ditch the goofy hats that are nearly as tall as they are..

Right with you man. I see their helmets as being more swept back, their armour more plated than their Craftworld cousins. The “evilness” should come from the lines of the armour, not bristling spikes everywhere.

Rioghan Murchadha
31-01-2007, 00:03
Right with you man. I see their helmets as being more swept back, their armour more plated than their Craftworld cousins. The “evilness” should come from the lines of the armour, not bristling spikes everywhere.

Problem is.. GW is locked onto this whole "40k is all about skulls and severed heads, and spikes and flayed skin." 2nd problem is, the above applies equally to the good guys and the bad guys. GW's solution? Give the bad guys even MORE, and BIGGER spikes and skulls and severed heads. Starts to get a bit silly after a while.

But then, I guess if you're trying to indicate evil to a target audience whose balls haven't even dropped yet, you can't really afford to be subtle about it. ;)

Tymell
31-01-2007, 00:08
They really need to emphasise this capriciousness. Anyone who’s read Terry Pratchett’s Lords and Ladies will know exactly how the Dark Eldar should act.

Aha, a good point of comparison there. I've read it, and see what you mean. Ready the iron boltgun rounds ;)

To further illustrate: some people might knowingly do something evil because they get a kick out of it and the sense of doing something they shouldn't. Any act of rebellion serves as a perfect example of people doing something that logically doesn't make sense, doing so because of the feeling of rebellion. But the Dark Eldar don't think like that, they don't torture and take slaves because of the feeling of doing something wrong. That wouldn't make sense, since their whole society encourages this approach and thus there is no imposed feeling of breaking a law or rule.

As an example, imagine in a hundred years time certain low class drugs are perfectly legal and accepted, and no one gives any more thought to taking them than they might to eating sweets. Nowadays, people will often do it because of the feeling of rebellion, but once it's accepted, that isn't there. In the same way, I don't see the Dark Eldar as doing the things they do and thinking "Gosh, isn't this wicked of us, being so warped and cruel?" because to them it's not warped, it's the norm. They may well be aware that those they're doing it to don't much like it, but that doesn't matter to them.

Being alien, Eldar think in an inherently different way, and it can be hard not to apply our own standards to them.

Firedrake Thomas
31-01-2007, 00:32
Can't believe I didn't mention this in the initial post, but the night shield upgrade should make it so that targets need to roll like nightfignting to target it- similar to Gray Night's shrouding or Tau Stealth Suits. Maybe up the cost a bit.

malika
31-01-2007, 02:00
but didn't the nazis get their concepts of the ubermensch from nietzsche anyways? i understand they completely misinterpreted what he meant - saying that the ubermensch was someone who constantly changed and developed, as well as discarding the idea of God


No, they just took the word "ubermensch" and used it for their own (in my opinion) dumb ideology. The Nazis turned the ubermensch into a biological construct while Nietzsche concept of an ubermensch was a moral one.

Which makes me think, Nietzsche's ideas on morality and on the ubermensch might be applied to the Dark Eldar. Especially concepts such as master morality and slave morality.

I would like to see the Dark Eldar more worked out. This whole thing of "oh but its a mystery....soooo mysterious" doesnt do it for me, it kind of shows that GW cant come up with sometihng decent and simply use that excuse (and oh boy they have been using that excuse a lot!) Right now we hardly know anything about the Dark Eldar, they are into S&M, eat souls and thats about it...a bit more would be interesting. Some more history, dept and development might be interesting to see. At the Anargo Sector Project (see my sig) we have been discussing this for some time and we had various ideas for Dark Eldar agenda. Now its not that they should have a single general idea since the Dark Eldar are very individualistic and each faction might have their own plans, but at least give them something more than "oh we're so S&M muahahha evil yeah muhahahaha souls muahhaha"

The Dark Eldar dont really need the S&M look, they could..figures such as the Haemonculi or Wyches, but still more inspired by Hellraiser than mere S&M, But decadence and hedonism isnt only sexually, as much as GW will try to say that in order for teenage boys to get a boner. Look at this (http://anargo-sector.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=348) discussion on the re-design of the Warrior armour.

The Dude
31-01-2007, 02:01
Problem is.. GW is locked onto this whole "40k is all about skulls and severed heads, and spikes and flayed skin." 2nd problem is, the above applies equally to the good guys and the bad guys. GW's solution? Give the bad guys even MORE, and BIGGER spikes and skulls and severed heads. Starts to get a bit silly after a while.

But then, I guess if you're trying to indicate evil to a target audience whose balls haven't even dropped yet, you can't really afford to be subtle about it. ;)

Ha ha :). I think the best solution here it to stop trying to sell the Dark Eldar as “bad guys” or “evil” in the traditional sense and go for something a little more subtle.


Being alien, Eldar think in an inherently different way, and it can be hard not to apply our own standards to them.

This is exactly my point, and it’s something GW need to go to great pains to explain. Give us more material that will assist us in getting into the Dark Eldar mindset.

To extrapolate the Lords and Ladies comparison for those who haven’t read it, the Elves of the Discworld can take pleasure in anything. They laugh to see their comrades die, they smash things is to hear the pretty breaking noises, and humans are insignificant to them. Not just lowly, but insignificant.

The Dark Eldar should have this same mind-set. They do things for the pure sensory stimulation of it. This is where Slaanesh came from. It needs to dig deeper than, “We take slaves because we like to torture them,” to, “We like to torture them because they scream so pretty,” and beyond.

What also needs expanding is their politics. This needs more than just an illustration of the factionalisation of their society, but the way the factions interact. This is yet another way for Dark Eldar to get pleasure. By controlling the actions of others without their knowledge.

The inter-house scheming and warring needs to be explained more fully. Some background stories that involve little to no fighting, but explain convoluted plots involving various Drachons etc would be great.


The Dark Eldar dont really need the S&M look, they could..figures such as the Haemonculi or Wyches, but still more inspired by Hellraiser than mere S&M, But decadence and hedonism isnt only sexually, as much as GW will try to say that in order for teenage boys to get a boner.

Have to sort of agree. I would like to see a visual style that includes other signs of opulence, like furs, silks, and jewellery.

I have always thought of them as a combination of (at least in part) the Romans and the Japanese. Not nessesarily in visual style, but in social and military/political structure respectively. The slave taking, opulence, and hedonism of the Romans, with the Feudal political and military structure of the Japanese.

Just my thoughts though.

Sgt Biffo
31-01-2007, 04:21
oh and to the person who reckoned they were nihlists, i'm going to contest that; they're definately sado-masochists

They are a mix of things. :) I was only sying that I feel they have more of a nihilistic bent than a hedonistic one. As I say for me any way...

Which makes me think, Nietzsche's ideas on morality and on the ubermensch might be applied to the Dark Eldar.

(and possibly malika?)

The S&M thing is a product of associations to Hellraiser, as pointed out previously.


The Dark Eldar dont really need the S&M look, they could..figures such as the Haemonculi or Wyches, but still more inspired by Hellraiser than mere S&M

I think Hellraiser was a good concept to rip-off... er... take artistic licence from. The concept of the Cenobites is of pain for its own sake (not pleasure or sadistic forfillment). This has been polluted by associtions with S&M which is a far more simplistic and immediate gratifacation.

malika
31-01-2007, 09:33
Ha ha . I think the best solution here it to stop trying to sell the Dark Eldar as “bad guys” or “evil” in the traditional sense and go for something a little more subtle.
I never liked the idea of a clear good and evil guy in 40k. And its a shame that GW is moving in that direction.


Have to sort of agree. I would like to see a visual style that includes other signs of opulence, like furs, silks, and jewellery.

Exactly! But not just that...also get rid of the giant spikes that would decapitate your whole squad if you turned around.


I have always thought of them as a combination of (at least in part) the Romans and the Japanese. Not nessesarily in visual style, but in social and military/political structure respectively. The slave taking, opulence, and hedonism of the Romans, with the Feudal political and military structure of the Japanese.

The houses might have a very feudal character, but we definately need to keep in the heavy concept of individualism. Each Dark Eldar will gladly screw everybody else over to gain more power and wealth. Imagine it as an extreme form of capitalism in which selfishness and greed are virtues.


I think Hellraiser was a good concept to rip-off... er... take artistic licence from. The concept of the Cenobites is of pain for its own sake (not pleasure or sadistic forfillment). This has been polluted by associtions with S&M which is a far more simplistic and immediate gratifacation.
Hellraiser is but one concept to take ideas from. I think the movie Chronicles of Riddick has some concepts we could take too, especially the Necromongers. The Dune novels are always a good inspiration to look into as well, GW has taken artistic licence from those for ageeeeeeees.

gitburna
31-01-2007, 10:02
Right, before i start to trawl through the thread and see what everyone else thinks, heres what i'd like to see...

Slightly improved warriors [and ideally some new plastics keeping the feel but improving / evolving ]

Better rules and background reflecting the stealthy/savage and horrific/tortured nature of mandrakes and grotesques respectively.

Better points cost/abilities for reaver bikes and number one priority Hellions [they are IMO the weakest unit in the game since the 4th edition rules took away the nice boost they had received in the version 2 codex]

Slightly better choice of wargear options [some are essential, others pointless]

More character models and definitely squad leader/special weapon models.

As far as a method for making dark eldar warriors slightly beter in combat, i think that the spikey nature of their armour is obviously a candidate for some form of representation....Kroot with their gunblades get an extra attack but i think that'd possibly be a bit too much ... The Sisters of Battle Sarissa is a good alternative, it gives a reroll... So that would give them a slight boost and wouldnt need a massive points increase.

I like splinter rifles being rapid fire. Dark eldar shooting is pretty effective, its weight of fire rather than having excellent guns.

Anyway, im pretty successful with my dark eldar over the years, i'd hazard a guess that they've won about 2/3 of their games, so i dont feel a need for any major overhauls in terms of rules, just a few tweaks here and there.

gitburna
31-01-2007, 10:58
GW has been vague on the soul tihng, on one hand they say that the DE need to eat souls to survive, but on the other hand its also mentioned that they give Slaanesh the souls of others to distract herr. So would they do both?

Where, i dont remember reading the latter anywhere ? All the background ive come across describes them as "soul vampires" and the reason they torture them etc etc is to get the maximum essence out. Plus its fun. They are Slaanesh [in that they are following the exact same practices which formed Slaanesh in the first place] its just that they dont worship her and are in fact terrified and scared of her.. Like drug users who wont quit.

malika
31-01-2007, 13:25
Where, i dont remember reading the latter anywhere ? All the background ive come across describes them as "soul vampires" and the reason they torture them etc etc is to get the maximum essence out. Plus its fun. They are Slaanesh [in that they are following the exact same practices which formed Slaanesh in the first place] its just that they dont worship her and are in fact terrified and scared of her.. Like drug users who wont quit.

The only decent and actual piece of Dark Eldar fluff called A Torturer's Tale which you can find on the GW site. In this story Vect tells his prisoner that Slaanesh would also feed upon the souls of others, so they fed her those souls to keep her away. Perhaps its a combination of the two. They feed Slaanesh souls so she would look the other way, however in order for the Dark Eldar themselves to survive they need souls too.

Marinox
31-01-2007, 14:50
i kinda like the spikey armor on the DE, to a point. i'm 100% with a more sleek armor though. the armor on the basic warrior is pretty much crap. the fantasy dark elves IMO are some of the coolest models GW produces. i could get down with just ripping them off for dark elves in space.

i always say whomever designed the DE obviously never had to transport them ANYWHERE. i can fit all my deamonhunters into 1 box, where i need 3 cases for my DE. so making them a bit more transport friendly would be nice.

malika
31-01-2007, 15:03
Spikes can stay, but not too much, because right now the spikes are so large that the warrior would simply kill himself in combat. The design should also be more than just Dark Elves in space. There is a lot of potential in the 40k universe, but lots of it simply gets ignored because of in my opinion a lack of creativity. Hence the reason why Kage2020 started the Anargo Sector Project I think to show what potential the 40k universe has.

The Grand Wazoo
31-01-2007, 15:11
The +1A for spikey is a must.

You mean warriors should get +1A for the spikes on their armour? Why, exactly? If there's one place I don't want my warriors, it's in melee. Close combat fighting is for Wyches, Warp Beasts and Talos.

I'd like to see a reason to ever pick Mandrakes, Hellions or Grotesques.

Reaver Jetbikes could use a boost, atm their only use is as mobile tank hunters in squads of 3 with two blasters.

A revamp of wargear and vehicle upgrades. Some of the wargear is utterly useless, and the only vehicle upgrades worth considering are the night shield and horrorfex.

The special rule for Lances not being ignored by Monoliths.

Tymell
31-01-2007, 15:26
You mean warriors should get +1A for the spikes on their armour? Why, exactly? If there's one place I don't want my warriors, it's in melee. Close combat fighting is for Wyches, Warp Beasts and Talos.

It's more because of Kroot, and them getting an extra attack for the blades on their guns, which is something Dark Eldar clearly have as well.

The Grand Wazoo
31-01-2007, 15:30
It's more because of Kroot, and them getting an extra attack for the blades on their guns, which is something Dark Eldar clearly have as well.

Well, true.. but it's still pointless IMO as Warriors have no business being in a melee(as paradoxal as that might sound).

Achilles
31-01-2007, 15:36
a well made point... but its strange that DE are a violent bloodthirsty race who's basic warriors dont 'like' Close Combat. from game perspective, they dont need it... but it would be fluff

the1stpip
31-01-2007, 16:10
Having played a number of games with Dark Eldar now, I find they are an escellent army, but half of the units available are not up to scratch.

Dark Eldar Lords - More weapon options. Tormentor Helm and Punisher is all we ever see.

Wych Lord - Again, more options.

Haemonculi - It was mentioned earlier about having them upgrade an unit. How about upgrading an unit of Grotesques in a similar vane to Urien.

Incubi - See no problems. Drop assault weapons maybe.

Wyches - In general, Wyches are fine. People complain sometimes, but when they get shot to pieces by a squad with bolters, they don't mind.

Other Wyches. Maybe a more heavily armoured squad, with two handed weapons, 4+ save, maybe power weapons like Banshees (but smaller squads, maybe 3 - 5).

Grotesques. Maybe a rule to say you have to shoot them if they are the nearest atrget on account of their fearsome visage, unless you are fearless.

Mandrakes. Infiltrate please. Poisoned blades or even furious charge (showing their more feral instincts).

Warriors. See previous points about ccw and pistol.

Raiders. Fine, but lets lose that silly sail please. Pain in the ass to transport.

Jetbikes. Twin linked splinter rifles, two assault weapons, hit and run. More shootier.

Hellions. +1 Attack for skyboard? Make them the more assaultier of the two FA options.

Talos. Fear is its greatest weapon. Leave it as is.

Ravager. No problems here either.

Scourges. Definitely need some reworking. Like the idea of assault weapons instead. Much more mobile that way.

More vehicle upgrades, and does anyone remember the large Raider that some bloke (can't remember his name off hand) from Forge World when the Dark Eldar were new. That would make a cool Super Heavy Choice. If the Tau and C Eldar can have Super Heavy Flyers, why can't DE.

the1stpip
31-01-2007, 16:47
Mandrakes should also probably lose the splinter pistol, and maybe they and warp beasts should get rending weapons.

As for models, redesign the following

Archon % Archite (prolly like the Autarchs), multipose Haemonculi, female Wyches only, Grotesques, more feral Mandrakes, Warp Beasts, Warriors, Raiders, Hellions (boards are good, but riders are too static).

I like the bdsm angle, as it is unique in 40k, and as has been mentioned in earlier posts, they are all about pleasure and extremes...

toxic_wisdom
31-01-2007, 17:16
Dark Eldar Lords - More weapon options. Tormentor Helm and Punisher is all we ever see.

-- wh... wh... what... Agonisers and Pistols for the Lords.


Mandrakes. Infiltrate please.

-- they can Infiltrate. its tucked away in their description.

Tymell
31-01-2007, 18:09
Well, true.. but it's still pointless IMO as Warriors have no business being in a melee(as paradoxal as that might sound).

I'm not so sure, I find can be dedicated to either role.

After all, a Dark Eldar Warrior, if the +1A rule were included, would have the same WS, S and A as a Hormogaunt, 1 better I and all for fewer points. Granted, the Hormogaunt is faster, but not an awful lot more since Warriors have Fleet. Combine this with a possible infiltrate move and you've got a very nice attack unit there.

the1stpip
31-01-2007, 18:49
-- wh... wh... what... Agonisers and Pistols for the Lords.



-- they can Infiltrate. its tucked away in their description.

Wrong. Quoting directly from the rulebook.

Hidden Deployment.
Mandrakes are not deployed like other troops. They are always deployed at the start of the game, even if the mission's special rules say they must be held in reserve. However, instead of placing the unit on the table as normal, take three Mandrake models (no matter how many models are in the squad), and deploy them separately in any place allowed by the deployment rules for the mission.

I took them thinking they could infiltrate, and then found they couldn't...

intellectawe
31-01-2007, 19:04
Dark Eldar Lords - More weapon options. Tormentor Helm and Punisher is all we ever see.

Wrong. "we" see plenty of other builds. Been seeing them for about 7 years already myself.


Wych Lord - Again, more options.

Probably one of the deadliest HQs in the game. Try different builds :)


Haemonculi - It was mentioned earlier about having them upgrade an unit. How about upgrading an unit of Grotesques in a similar vane to Urien.

Agreed


Incubi - See no problems. Drop assault weapons maybe.

Agreed


Wyches - In general, Wyches are fine. People complain sometimes, but when they get shot to pieces by a squad with bolters, they don't mind.

Agreed


Grotesques. Maybe a rule to say you have to shoot them if they are the nearest atrget on account of their fearsome visage, unless you are fearless.

Something along those lines, yeah.


Mandrakes. Infiltrate please. Poisoned blades or even furious charge (showing their more feral instincts).

They need a fix.


Warriors. See previous points about ccw and pistol.

Warriors dont need to be in CC. There already is plenty in the army able to do it MUCH better than these guys will.


Raiders. Fine, but lets lose that silly sail please. Pain in the ass to transport.

That isn't anything you can fix. Just cut them off. Thats what I did.


Jetbikes. Twin linked splinter rifles, two assault weapons, hit and run. More shootier.

They need a fix.


Hellions. +1 Attack for skyboard? Make them the more assaultier of the two FA options.

Agreed


Talos. Fear is its greatest weapon. Leave it as is.

Talos needs its ruling updated because currently, it has a hard time busting tanks.


Ravager. No problems here either.

Actually, if you find open topped HS choices ok, then more power to you. But there is no reason, not even fluff reasons, to have this Unit Open Topped. At least give it the "ork" option of making it closed topped.


Scourges. Definitely need some reworking. Like the idea of assault weapons instead. Much more mobile that way.

Agreed. They cost way too much for an army that can field Dark Lances like candy.

toxic_wisdom
31-01-2007, 22:25
...and deploy them separately in any place allowed by the deployment rules for the mission...

Here is where the Infiltrate is tucked away. Take a look at Seek-n-Destroy Gamma. Is Infiltrate allowed? After you answer, read the quote above again.

Basically, if Infiltrate is allowed in a mission, then Mandrakes are allowed to Infiltrate.

Gensuke626
31-01-2007, 23:44
I was just thinking...would it be possible to make a DE Assassin that's something like the Druchii Assassin of WHFB? This is definately something I'd love to see. I figure it'd be something like
0-1 Elite. Take 2 or 3( Not sure) per choice
Not sure on stats, but figure on something that is as good or better than DE HQ choices.

Equipment - 2 Power (Or Rending?) Weapons
Upgrades - Poisoned Attacks, possible 'Touch of Death' Skill to go with rending (If roll 6 to wound, then armor saves are ignored?)

Special Abilities - Independant Character
Special deployment rules - DE player makes a note of which squad the Assassin is hiding in. During any assault phase, before rolling for attacks but after movement, the Assassin may reveal himself, taking the place of one model that is in Base to base with an enemy model. On the turn the Assassin
is revealed, he strikes at Initiative 10 and any model he is in base to base contact with may not use grenades or Howling Banshee masks.

Just a random idea...

damz451
01-02-2007, 00:12
altho i'l probobly be shouted at for this but anyone noticed how much the Wraith from Stargate atlantis are pretty much like the dark eldar, space vampires that essentially farm humans for their life force and bring them back to their base.

Some ideas from the show would be cool such as Darts, i.e flyers that has the task of essentially vaccuming up people via a transporter of some sort.

Also according to fluff Dark eldar warriors are meant to be amazing in close combat compared to pretty much everything, perhaps some rules to make warriors more than just dark lance sniper squads would be nice, perhaps some soul draining ability that makes the warriors gain strength or speed in close combat.

Also get rid of splinter rifles, giving one of the few basic soldier in the game that is actually gd in cc a weapon that forces him to stand and shoot is just stupid

Sgt Biffo
01-02-2007, 01:10
You mean warriors should get +1A for the spikes on their armour? Why, exactly?

How does "additional close combat weapon" grab you?


If there's one place I don't want my warriors, it's in melee. Close combat fighting is for Wyches, Warp Beasts and Talos.

Just 'cause you bawk at CC doesn't mean everyone does...;)

Souleater
01-02-2007, 12:18
1. I think clean up the Talos rules. While I understand that it is driven by the tortured spasms of capture victims I dislike random numbers of CC attacks, the silly stackng of attacks into one against vehicles and the unnecessary complication of shooting at six different targets instead of 'must always shoot at the nearest enemy squad.'

2. Harlequins...should only be takeable against Chaos for fluff reasons but since CE aren't restricted like that, I dont' see why we should be.

I am a little dubious about as having Harlies if we can load them into WWP or Raiders.

3. I don't want to worship, or serve however unwillingly, She Who Thirsts. If DE are taken down that path I can see only the very boring Codex Chaos Eldar being spawned.

One of the best things about DE is that they have a common enemy in SWT and despite hating them, raiding them for wraithbone, psykers, etc they will team up with CE (and CE will team up with them!!!!) to fight SWT.

I agree that Lords and Ladies is an excellent starting point for their mentallity. They would of course be much darker (ours being a game of the grim and gothic future and not a Discworld novel, however good)

Edit: I always thought of them as using pain to keep SWT away from them (and topping up their own souls as She drains them). I know they have a bit of an S&M look, but I think that's more a theft from the IP of Hellraiser than sex.

3b I don't want to turn into Dark Craftworld Eldar, either.

4. Mandrakes with Furious charge and a leader type sounds good. Possibly the ability to melt back into cover would be fun :)

5. Grotesques - either force enemies with 18" to fail target priority tests, or enemies trying to shoot past them roll 3D6 and take the highest two. Heck, maybe even a reversed Night Fight roll where you try not to see them! (Fail it, you spot them and have to shoot them).

6. Scourges are meant to be mobile heavy support. They work well with splinter cannons IME, but chaining them to one spot with a Heavy Dark Lance is silly. Blasters might work with their 12" move...or maybe an 18" Heavy Blaster.

7. Hellions/Reavers - we've covered.

8. I love the model range but it does need modernizing. Please, god, keep Gary Morley the heck away from it, though. Blades should be optional. I like a select few but I know others don't.

Lasty, why do Lords need more weapon options? Poison blade in one hand, agoniser in the other. Ready for anything.

malika
01-02-2007, 12:44
I would definately like to see more crazy Haemonculi creations instead of just the Talos. Might be sometihng to look into when you want to play with a Haemonculi Coven.

the1stpip
01-02-2007, 13:25
@ Toxic_Wisdom

Sorry to change the point of this thread, but I believe if it doesn't say they can infiltrate, specifically in the rules, then they can't.

You can't use some obscure wording to say they can infiltrate. If you can find more concrete evidence (like an FAQ) that says otherwise, then I will be quite happy to eat my hat with a side helping of humble pie...

the1stpip
01-02-2007, 13:30
Some more Wych sub typews, like Larger Beasts or heavily armoured Wyches.

Maybe a Vyper type bike, packing a disintegrator or Dark Lance.

How about a slave squad. A bunch of mon-keigh being use as a meat shield, being pushed forward by cattle prods?

Marinox
01-02-2007, 14:44
How about a slave squad. A bunch of mon-keigh being use as a meat shield, being pushed forward by cattle prods?

i think that (at least WAS) the idea of grotesques. but now: "leadership = pass, shoot past 'em". i do believe they'll do something to make grotesques more like 3rd ed. maybe as long as their bases are touching they make a size 2 wall (meat sheild).

i don't like heavily armored wytch idea. well, it's not that i don't LIKE it, i just don't think it fits. wytches rely on grace and speed (hence the 4+ inv) not armor. i don't like my girls getting mowed down to LASGUNS any more than the next archon but ya can't have it all. the only thing i'd do with the wytches is give them 2 attacks base. 1 attack base for life long gladiatorial fighters is crap.

i don't remember who said it, but i'd like to buy a round for whoever said we should be able to close top the ravager.

and i know i'm probably all alone on this, but i don't like harliquins. i know they fit (kinda) fluff wise and i have no doubt they'll be in a new DE codex, but i know my Archon will never have them in her raiding party. all that color confuses and upsets us. however, i would like to paint them, the models are pretty sweet.

The Dude
01-02-2007, 23:12
4. Mandrakes with Furious charge and a leader type sounds good. Possibly the ability to melt back into cover would be fun :)

I like the “melt back into cover” idea. Sort of like Skyleap, but you just re-place the 3 models as you would at the start of the game. Keep them jumping at shadows…

toxic_wisdom
02-02-2007, 02:18
@ Toxic_Wisdom

Sorry to change the point of this thread, but I believe if it doesn't say they can infiltrate, specifically in the rules, then they can't.

You can't use some obscure wording to say they can infiltrate. If you can find more concrete evidence (like an FAQ) that says otherwise, then I will be quite happy to eat my hat with a side helping of humble pie...

Despite the fact it is worded ( IYO obscurely ) to allow Infiltrate, three trips to Games Day Baltimore was enough confirmation for me.

intellectawe
02-02-2007, 03:16
Mandrakes can't Infiltrate. GD at Baltimore was full of ****.

toxic_wisdom
02-02-2007, 05:20
Mandrakes can't Infiltrate. GD at Baltimore was full of ****.

Oh, I'm sorry - didn't realize you were the senior speaker of Games Workshop. The one who knows more than anybody else ( especially three years in a row ).

toxic_wisdom
02-02-2007, 05:23
Mandrakes can't Infiltrate. GD at Baltimore was full of ****.

Oh, I'm sorry - didn't realize you were the senior speaker of Games Workshop. The one who knows more than anybody else ( especially three years in a row ).

And when a DE player asks if Infiltrate is allowed ( ie some gamma levels ), you say yes and then try to convince him his Mandrakes cannot use the Infiltrate setup.

Read their description again.

intellectawe
02-02-2007, 05:32
It doesnt take a senoir speaker of games Workshop to tell you that the word Infiltrate never even appears in their description. Show me where they have the Infiltrate ability.

You probably mean their crappy Hidden Deployment ability, the one, unlike REAL Infiltrate, doesn't allow the mandrakes to deploy in enemy deployment zones.

So like I said, DE have no infiltrating units. Those retards judges you playing with are just that, retarded. Because this isn't a debate over rulings. The judges are just giving the Mandrakes an ability they do not have access to. Heck, It would be nice if, playing you, I just gave my Warriors each a gun that fires 90" at strength 10 AP 1 with no line of sight required. Would your judges allow that too? Would you? :)

toxic_wisdom
02-02-2007, 05:39
So like I said, DE have no infiltrating units. Those retards judges you playing with are just that, retarded. Because this isn't a debate over rulings. The judges are just giving the Mandrakes an ability they do not have access to. Heck, It would be nice if, playing you, I just gave my Warriors each a gun that fires 90" at strength 10 AP 1 with no line of sight required. Would your judges allow that too? Would you?

-- Is there ANYTHING in the Warrior's description that even remotely points to a gun that fires 90" at strength 10 AP 1 with no line of sight required ?

Hidden Deployment.

"...and deploy them separately in any place allowed by the deployment rules for the mission..."

Did you read this ?

intellectawe
02-02-2007, 06:11
So like I said, DE have no infiltrating units. Those retards judges you playing with are just that, retarded. Because this isn't a debate over rulings. The judges are just giving the Mandrakes an ability they do not have access to. Heck, It would be nice if, playing you, I just gave my Warriors each a gun that fires 90" at strength 10 AP 1 with no line of sight required. Would your judges allow that too? Would you?

-- Is there ANYTHING in the Warrior's description that even remotely points to a gun that fires 90" at strength 10 AP 1 with no line of sight required ?

Hidden Deployment.

"...and deploy them separately in any place allowed by the deployment rules for the mission..."

Did you read this ?

Yes sir. Which only allows them to be deployed within your deployment zone. Infiltrating allows you to deploy anywhere on the board with some restrictions. Mandrakes are only allowed to deploy where your units deploy. I used to think Mandrakes could deploy anywhere, but after I learned I was misreading the rules, ack. Never touched those things again.

toxic_wisdom
02-02-2007, 06:17
You weren't misreading the rules - sadly you've been rerouted by others.

intellectawe
02-02-2007, 06:19
So tell me where they are allowed to deploy in missions? If you get to deploy in your deployment zone, where do they deploy in? I would like to know.

Sgt Biffo
02-02-2007, 08:29
Hidden Deployment.

"...and deploy them separately in any place allowed by the deployment rules for the mission..."

Did you read this ?

Hey you guys gotta cool it. Deep breaths. Reeellaaaaxxxx!

a)If your allowed any deployment described in the mission then not only can they Infiltrate but can Deep Strike too. Perhap they could get a Scout move before the start of the game to top it off. Try playing that one at the Baltimore games day.:cheese:

b)Red Shirt Goons are not omnipitent authorities on the complexities of rules. They are gamer geeks same, as you and me, who were a red shirt to work.

c)This isn't a rules forum.

Souleater
02-02-2007, 09:26
This is meant to be a thread about what we'd like to see for the DE, not a rules discussion. Please take the Infiltrate debate to the rules forum.

intellectawe
02-02-2007, 15:16
Hey you guys gotta cool it. Deep breaths. Reeellaaaaxxxx!

Neither of us were heated. Just because you read something different than as that person meant it, doesn't mean its true.

DE don't have an Infiltrator, so I would like to see DE get a real Infiltrator instead of this boot leg hidden deployment garbage.

Marinox
02-02-2007, 15:28
DE don't have an Infiltrator, so I would like to see DE get a real Infiltrator instead of this boot leg hidden deployment garbage.

if mandrakes did get infiltrate that would move them very quickly from the shelf to my army case. they'd be ALOT more useful.

toxic_wisdom
02-02-2007, 16:44
If your allowed any deployment described in the mission then not only can they Infiltrate but can Deep Strike too. Perhap they could get a Scout move before the start of the game to top it off. Try playing that one at the Baltimore games day.

-- Okay, to keep it on topic the Infiltrate ability of Mandrakes should be more clearly written.

-- As for Deep Strike - the description clearly states they must be deployed on the battlefield. So DS is not an option for Drakes.

-- As for Scouts - this is a special rule that allows movement after the unit is deployed. So the Scouts issue is not a factor.

-- Not sure why this is so unbelievable. Look at the Decapitator, their champion. He has an ungodly deploy rule - even better than Infiltrate.


if mandrakes did get infiltrate that would move them very quickly from the shelf to my army case. they'd be ALOT more useful.

-- And hence maybe the reason for their uncomparitive point cost. At xx points per model, I get a splinter pistol and ccw - non impressive profile - a chance to divide the unit behind my lines. Oh wow ( sarcasm ). I think I'll keep my Wyches. Huh? They can infiltrate in missions where Infiltrate is allowed. Cool, that makes sense.

Tymell
02-02-2007, 16:53
To keep the thread going with new things, how do people feel about the special characters?

Are there any you can think of you'd like to see in there? (Father of Scorpions?)

Are there any you think should be changed in stats/model/rules, and if so why?

Are there any you think should be taken out alltogether?

Personally I haven't tried many out, so I'm not sure how they balance out rules-wise (though I know I like Drazhar). In terms of models I'd like to see new versions of Kruellagh, Lelith and possibly Urien (though I do quite like him), and one done for the Decapitator.

Marinox
02-02-2007, 16:58
toxic i'm right there with you, it makes sense that they SHOULD be able to infiltrate, i just don't think they can in RaW. i'm not saying your wrong. i'm just saying the way i play and the people in my area play, is that it doesn't say infiltrate in their profile, so they can't infiltrate. the rules are hazy enough that you can squeeze them through the "shadow of a doubt" window, i just don't wanna play that way.

toxic i've read alot of your posts, i respect you, your a smart dude, just i know personally some of the guys who ran the '03 and '04 baltimore gamesday RTTs. lol, and their word is pretty far from the gospel...

toxic_wisdom
02-02-2007, 18:56
toxic i'm right there with you, it makes sense that they SHOULD be able to infiltrate, i just don't think they can in RaW. i'm not saying your wrong. i'm just saying the way i play and the people in my area play, is that it doesn't say infiltrate in their profile, so they can't infiltrate. the rules are hazy enough that you can squeeze them through the "shadow of a doubt" window, i just don't wanna play that way.

-- For the record, me neither. I thought the comments at GDB were odd, nonetheless I've enjoyed the Infiltrate decission on the DE tables.


toxic i've read alot of your posts, i respect you, your a smart dude, just i know personally some of the guys who ran the '03 and '04 baltimore gamesday RTTs. lol, and their word is pretty far from the gospel...

-- Thanx. And I agree. For the record again, I do not Infiltrate my Mandrakes unless the consensus at a particular venue agrees with the grey area of their description.

toxic_wisdom
02-02-2007, 18:59
Oh, and back on topic...

I'm still working on the codex rewrite, but for now here is a teaser.

Scourges - Dark Lance option is replaced with Disintegrator option.

Marinox
02-02-2007, 20:10
then make the stats on the dissys:

STR 7/AP 2 - heavy 1, small blast
or
STR 4/AP 3 - Assault 3

scourges would be unbelievably bad-ass.

toxic_wisdom
03-02-2007, 00:33
then make the stats on the dissys:

STR 7/AP 2 - heavy 1, small blast
or
STR 4/AP 3 - Assault 3

scourges would be unbelievably bad-ass.

Right. No change from the original Disintegrator ( including range ). Allows for flexibility if the squad moves or not. And still maintains their heavy nature.

damz451
03-02-2007, 01:01
For some reason I get the feeling the new DE are going to look a lot like Wraith from SG:Atlantis.

i hope they do, they're pretty cool, that and they look kinda like them (i.e rearlly pale an sorta gooey skin) but so many aspects are similar such as

Weapons that dont kill but stun

Treat humans like cattle

Advance tech, high numbers, fast attack tactics

i'd like to see a wraith dart type vehicle (since its pretty similar to slave snares) as it would make dark eldar a bit different, i.e capture people rather than defeat the enemy and capture resources.

I have previously tried to make my warriors to look like wraiths but it just never works, its too hard to make dreadlocks :(

The_Outsider
03-02-2007, 14:31
Weapons that dont kill but stun

Maybe give DE a CC weapon that has a stun effect like a thunderhammer?

Maybe to make a power weapon worth taking give it some new cool name + stun effect.

I dunno, its hard to make a weapon thats power as well as the stun effect without making it underpowered (i.e you're still only S3) or overpowered (i.e +1 S) that would render the punisher useless.

I would like it to have the power ability, but it could easily add +2 S but not ignore armour.

/random thoughts.

Firedrake Thomas
04-02-2007, 18:34
Not sure if this should really go here, although it does involve changes in the army...

I went to my local games workshop today, and finally played my Dark Eldar for the first time in a while (I won too :) ). But anyway, the manager told me that they are making a new Raider, and coming out with new warriors this year. I can't say I really believe him, though, this year seems way too soon. Not that I don't trust him, but the codex is most likely coming out late next year, so I was thinking more like mid 2008. This year would be prety cool, though.

Sgt Biffo
04-02-2007, 21:51
Right. No change from the original Disintegrator ( including range ). Allows for flexibility if the squad moves or not. And still maintains their heavy nature.

So the Disintergrater would remain Range 24" S4 AP3 Heavy3?

I guess I'd be looking at ways to make Scourges more manouverable. What about a type of Devastater squad idea (though it doesn't follow the fast raiders concept of the DE).

kokujin_atsuhara
04-02-2007, 23:01
Hello

I'm a dark eldar player.

I hope that the dark eldar change when the new codex is finished...if anytime.

The scourges could have been a great unit, but with his fragility, they are too expensive to risk them. And the heavy weapon option, I have never see anybody who uses it.
If it was blaster, instead of dark lance, and the model cheaper, could have been great.

Sgt Biffo
05-02-2007, 03:28
Just an idea; what about a short range assult version of the disintergrater along the same lines as the blaster/dark lance.

toxic_wisdom
05-02-2007, 03:28
So the Disintergrater would remain Range 24" S4 AP3 Heavy3?

I guess I'd be looking at ways to make Scourges more manouverable. What about a type of Devastater squad idea (though it doesn't follow the fast raiders concept of the DE).

oops no... assault 3 on the sustained...

IncubiLord
05-02-2007, 08:49
I'd do lots of things...
There's a link in my sig to a collection of them, and the accompanying thread on it in Rules Dev, if anybody's interested.

It's sadly been neglected for some time, and since then the guys on 40K Online have had me thinking more about the units - I should probably update it, but there's still most of my standing ideas.

"Legion" was a new term to me as well, my usual crowd calls a Mandrake-themed army the "Army of Shadows."

Toxic_wisdom, I look forward to seeing what you did to the 'dex, but you might want to take a slightly-less-hostile tone in Rules Dev if you're going to post there yourself.

Somebody asked a while back about rumors, but there's really not much to go off. The ones I remember are:

Probably in 2008 - Woot!

The CWE guys were keen on doing DE as well - good indication of similar treatment. I seem to recall that Jes moved right from CWE to DE.

An old comment from one of the guys here who's usually right said something along the lines of DE getting even darker/more evil - had me worried about Chaos DE for a while, but doesn't look like it.

Adam Troke doesn't seem to like the idea of DE going Chaos any more than I do - FoMV reference

There've been comments along the lines of giving DE a total over-haul - most assume this means changing the fluff and a completely new model range (everything).

Sgt Biffo
05-02-2007, 10:36
An old comment from one of the guys here who's usually right said something along the lines of DE getting even darker/more evil - had me worried about Chaos DE for a while, but doesn't look like it.

MORE evil! Yuck. I think I need a shower to wash off the cold sweat.

Maybe they'll be MA15 like the old RoC books instead of the PG13 friendly stuff they've been knocking out since 2nd Ed.

The mini's do need an overhual. I love the look of the armour on the front of the codex, and I feel that it is poorly represented on the minitures.

toxic_wisdom
05-02-2007, 13:05
Toxic_wisdom, I look forward to seeing what you did to the 'dex, but you might want to take a slightly-less-hostile tone in Rules Dev if you're going to post there yourself.

Wasn't aware of my hostilities - which thread are we talking about ? Hope your not talking about mandrakes wtf - that was my reply to being individually pointed out through guise. And I even repeated my opinion on the matter there, which the OP ignored from this thread.

But anyway, yes the dex is coming along nicely. Just don't have all the time to place it here in one chunk. Probably start listing units, wargear, etc by faction rather than whole dex. I could simply edit and add more.

BTW - I remember your ID from Medusa V. Great narratives were exchanged. The Red Tide versus the Dark Court !!!

IncubiLord
05-02-2007, 21:06
Wasn't aware of my hostilities - which thread are we talking about ? Hope your not talking about mandrakes wtf - that was my reply to being individually pointed out through guise.
Missed that one, sorry. If you're getting singled out, you've got a right to be a bit angry, but I was looking at the recent Rules Dev threads and a couple posts struck me as... poor word-choice at best.

I was thinking of this one (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1265115&postcount=16), which seemed a lot like "learn to play, n00b" to me, and this one (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1272304&postcount=6) which seems to say that the OP is completely wrong and not offer an argument to back the opinion (which tends to come across as spammish aggression).

I may be reading too much into the tone of the posts, but you have to remember that people are bound to do so. A little explanation of your perspective goes a long way towards sounding reasonable - and is much more convincing.

But anyway, yes the dex is coming along nicely. Just don't have all the time to place it here in one chunk. Probably start listing units, wargear, etc by faction rather than whole dex. I could simply edit and add more.
Mmm, yes.
I made mine in MS Word with codex-like formatting and everything together - only to find that I had far too large a file to upload.

I ended up breaking it into chunks and ditching most the pretty formatting to do managable notepad uploads.

BTW - I remember your ID from Medusa V. Great narratives were exchanged. The Red Tide versus the Dark Court !!!
Indeed, great fun was had by all (I think).

I enjoyed seeing my group of DE players working together and actually pulling off their big goal in the end (No'akei didn't beat Vect), and the guys really brought it to life with their narratives and support. Those who participated made it worth every effort. (And it was flattering to be mentioned in all the DE stuff from about Week 5 on...)

What screen-name were you using back then? This one isn't ringing any bells, and I'd hate to think I already forgot somebody...

Rip
05-02-2007, 21:34
Dark Eldar SHOULD NOT have a titan or any other super heavy. As they should never be in fights long enough for those to come in to play as they a raiding force.

In my view, the only super heavy that would fit the Dark Eldar would be a large slave barge, similar to Jabba's in Return Of The Jedi.

toxic_wisdom
06-02-2007, 04:46
What screen-name were you using back then? This one isn't ringing any bells, and I'd hate to think I already forgot somebody...

drazhar1018

Lord Rhen
- Archon of the House Sy' Ilx
- Ambassador of the Red Tide
- Introduced bio-chemical agents to "captives" that were oh too easily rescued

IncubiLord
06-02-2007, 07:08
Ah, the biggest supporter of No'akei from the GW boards (well, apart from our friend Mr. Troke ;)).

Yes, I won't forget you for a while. The ongoing rivalry was definitely fun to see - things would have been quite dull if nobody had stood for her.

I do hope there's no hard feelings. In the end, one of us was bound not to get what we wanted.

In a way, I envy you. The Red Tide was pretty much your baby, and you got as much attention as my alliance. Still, it made for a good story.

Now, before I get in trouble for drifting off topic :angel: :
I agree that the DE shouldn't have titans nor many super-heavies in any conventional sense.

Flyers that represent their BFG escorts doing strafing runs might qualify as super-heavies, but massive, heavily-armored engines of doom aren't exactly in the lightly-armored lightning raiders theme.

toxic_wisdom
06-02-2007, 11:49
Ah, the biggest supporter of No'akei from the GW boards (well, apart from our friend Mr. Troke ;)).

Yes, I won't forget you for a while. The ongoing rivalry was definitely fun to see - things would have been quite dull if nobody had stood for her.

I do hope there's no hard feelings. In the end, one of us was bound not to get what we wanted.

In a way, I envy you. The Red Tide was pretty much your baby, and you got as much attention as my alliance. Still, it made for a good story.

-- No hard feelings at all. Again, it was fun and I really enjoyed the narratives.

Zhai Morenn
30-08-2007, 06:19
Originally Posted by Malika:

Look at this discussion on the re-design of the Warrior armour.

....I'm sold... soo very completely sold on those ideas. that is so much better than the current warriors.

At present, I think that really the warriors are perhaps too uniform in their design- certainly they should retain a similar armoured appearance but for them to have varying designs of armor, varying amounts of armor and combinations of said armour would emphasize their individualistic ways. All truth be told I'd love to see them remade keeping the blades but more subtle use of them and an overall sleeker and darker look (No Space Elf fros pls)

It seems to me that Dark Eldar culture is as has been stated, unrestrained. They believe that if you can do something and literally live with the consequences then there is no reason what so ever to not do it if you desire to. Certainly we can see our fair share of hedonists and sado-masochistic murderers in them but I honestly believe that there is more depth to them hidden below these twisted trappings, just as dark as they appear but in some cases brutally calculating, purposeful and motivated towards some larger goal they desire. The Dark Eldar on Medusa V, as I understand it, were led by a former retainer of Vect who wanted the power to oust him. Though she ultimately failed, I think that I would like to see perhaps a cold, but deeper leader architype for them. Leaders who are moving towards some end through the shadows of the galaxy, and whom reveal select details to humanity's perspective through simple whim or a desire to manipulate. In the Torturer's Tale, Vect told the man his people's story on a whim, because he was of passing interest, but we all know there's a lot more to Vect than simple immediate gratification.

Pain shouldn't be perceived as a fetish of theirs but rather something entirely different. It's a way of life, to inflict and suffer it. They are I think more in touch with the basic truths of the reality and universe of 40k than any other race. They don't have dark masters who may forsake them, they don't worship some idol which never directly effects them. They don't blindly serve some ideal or communal philosophy. They don't fear their eventual fates, where when it comes to death, their craftworld kin are ruled by it. Each Dark Eldar is their own individual, with perhaps more freedom to dictate their lives than any other race may claim.

I like to see them as Eldar who are not dominated by an innate evil nature nor a bunch of immediate gratification seeking hedonistic sadists (though there are certainly many of those among them) but rather as a face of the Eldar which is unafraid of death, unburdened by the mistakes of their forebearers and the immense sorrow of their fall that many craftworlders feel. They are not bound by the illusion of law and order and the weakness that it breeds, for surely if one is forced to survive in a world like theirs one must be strong and deadly, where those who live in a society of high moral expectations or subservience grow weak and complacent without the constant struggle for themselves.

As for my fledgling Dark Eldar, at present I intend to convert or proxy nearly everything. I hope that isn't interpreted as blasphemy but here are the models I'm using for my Archon and first Haemonculus. Im currently working on ideas for Mandrakes and Grotesques. For Wyches I may just use WH Fantasy Dark Elf Witches but that remains to be seen.