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View Full Version : Beating a Tzeench demonic legion ?



bryanpetersmith
25-01-2007, 06:59
So I have a freind that I play relatively frequently and I have been unable to defeat his army a Tzeench demonic legion I play both bretonnia and high elves and both seem to be somewhat helpless against the sheer number of spells flying around the table along with flying chariot and whole units of flamers this army is nuts. I am unsure on points but his general army looks something like this

Demon prince
mark of tzeench

army battle standard bearer with the mark of tzeench

4 units of 10 horrors with a champion who is a level 1 wizard

2 units 5 flamers

2 flying chariots

1 unit 5 screamers
my numbers may be a bit off but this thing just unloads on my army regardless of anything I do and I am having great difficulty dealing with it any ideas.

Nubelf
25-01-2007, 07:12
I'd go with lots of ranged. But, I honestly don't see what's so powerful about a Tzeench demon army, especially one so small. Of course, I have no idea the pt limit used.

Dspankdo
25-01-2007, 13:02
Looks like 2000 pts so I'll give it a go.

Take 4 eagle claw bolt throwers, archmage with as much dispelling equipment as possible and 1 minor mage with dispel scrolls, and a commander on pegasus with the sword of battle to tackle the screamers.. Max out on archers and chariots and have 1 solid block of spearmen or sea guard.

Wings of Doom
25-01-2007, 17:03
Well... there isn't really all that much magic. Only two of the power dice are in the pool, which means at least two of the horrors will be casting 5+ spells on one dice. The horrors aren't going to be getting any of the nastier tzeentch spells off, and are realatively weak units- their ranged bound spell being strength two, and small unit size making them vunerable to missile fire.
Take an Archmage and two Mages, one with a staff of sorcery, to counter the magic, as unless I'm mistaken (I'm not too knowledgable on High Elves) thats 6 dispel dice with +2 to every attempt. If you can, take the lore of light for the extra stength against daemons- strength six no saves is pretty harsh against a 500 point plus Daemon Prince.
Take as many bolt throwers as possible- although its not a large target, you'll usually be hitting the Daemon Prince of 4's or 3's, wounding on 3's (with a big bolt) and doing D3 wounds. Concentrate these on it for the first few turns (until it dies) and then multi-shot rape the horrors.
Use the remaining hero choice for a fast, high strength commander (pegasus or steed, doesn't really matter but I'd go for pegasus if the points allow), as Dspankdo said, to hunt the screamers and chariots- with a sword of might you're wounding a chariot on 3's with no save.
Fill up the core with sea guard or bowmen, but I would suggest against any fast moving combat unti as they wil be cheewed up by the daemon prince.
Flamers are short enough range for you to get a fewturns of shooting at them (which you'll need, them being skirmishers) but they are pretty fast (so watch out).

Dspankdo
26-01-2007, 02:18
A unit of 20 seaguard will beat a daemon prince in combat especially if they are on a hill.

Negativemoney
26-01-2007, 13:01
Take a unit of Dragon Princes w/ the Elayrion Banner Led by a Noble in Dragon Armor. This should give you a solid unit to take the flamers and chariots out with. Rember that the Dragon Armor protects against thier shooting so use it to your advantage. The Banner enables you to chase them in the woods where most other cav would not be able to go.

To deal with the Horrors use a block of Pheonix Guard to form up your center. Take the wizards as layed out above and 2 Bolt throwers. For core go with a unit of Silver helms, 2 units of 10 archers and a block of spearmen to defend your ranks. See how many points that comes out it. If you have any points left over use it to buy more spearmen.

Dspankdo
26-01-2007, 13:49
Against Tzeentch spearmen are a waste of time, you will very rarely get into combat and if you do it will be against a daemon prince, who can be confronted by alot of shooting and won't want to get into combat anyway as he is more valuable as a caster. Maxing out shooting is the best idea. Dragon princes are alright but a commander on pegasus will do the same job and is marginally faster. Horrors drop like flies to bolt throwers and archers as you will be eliminating a unit a turn with concentrated shooting and magic.

Negativemoney
26-01-2007, 17:18
Against Tzeentch spearmen are a waste of time, you will very rarely get into combat and if you do it will be against a daemon prince, who can be confronted by alot of shooting and won't want to get into combat anyway as he is more valuable as a caster. Maxing out shooting is the best idea. Dragon princes are alright but a commander on pegasus will do the same job and is marginally faster. Horrors drop like flies to bolt throwers and archers as you will be eliminating a unit a turn with concentrated shooting and magic.

I don't think you are considering the overwhelming amount of psychology that you need to account for. A Noble on a pegusus is going to be outnumberd by fear causing enemies that can stand a shoot and possibly kill his mount. Its not something I would even consider against DL. Single Characters with the exception of Chaos Lords should never be taken alone against a unit of daemons, even 5.

Spearmen ar a solid choice because they have armor and are not easily killed by indigo fire wich is something that will do a number on a unit of archers. Playing against Tzeentch DL comes down to Psychology and outnumbering you need to be able to deal with both. Armies that are not immune to psychology will find it difficult to accomplish their goals due to constantly failing fear and terror tests (even at LD9).

Dspankdo
26-01-2007, 17:36
What psychology do you speak of, tzeentch armies do not get into combat, it's just not what they do. The chariots can be picked off by bolt throwers and the high elf players own chariots, and everything else can be delt with by shooting unit, if you need something foe combat then there is always the seaguard. The character is not for charging the flamers but the screamers, which he can take down with ease, if he needs the extra punch just give him a griffon. As for flamers standing and shooting they will probably be out of range. One model in the army causes terror, he has no armor and only a 5+ save, a turn of bolt thrower fire will deal with him good.

Negativemoney
26-01-2007, 18:16
What psychology do you speak of, tzeentch armies do not get into combat, it's just not what they do. The chariots can be picked off by bolt throwers and the high elf players own chariots, and everything else can be delt with by shooting unit, if you need something foe combat then there is always the seaguard. The character is not for charging the flamers but the screamers, which he can take down with ease, if he needs the extra punch just give him a griffon. As for flamers standing and shooting they will probably be out of range. One model in the army causes terror, he has no armor and only a 5+ save, a turn of bolt thrower fire will deal with him good.

Honestly it seems to me as if you hardly ever play against Tzeentch DL. the best way to Play DL is to play the Psychology card. In your mind that only means Fear/Terror But I am talking more about panic and the fact that Tzeentch can cause alot of Panic tests on MSU style High Elves is what will cause them to loose.

The flyer is a Bad Idea as it leave the rider open to any magic that will come his way. He is only T3 and more than likely have little to no save. If his mount ever gets destroyed (being T4 if its a pegasus it won't be that hard for tzentch) Then you have an Elf running around on foot.

I have been playing DL since SoC arrived and I can say with certainty that if you under estimate the 5+ ward you will loose. You will get at most 1 turn of shooting with those bolt throwers before they are dead so you need something that can stand to take some shooting without breaking if it takes enough wounds and avoid haveing any single models in your army at all.

Dspankdo
26-01-2007, 19:05
Whoever said anything about msu. I'm talking about big chunky blocks of archers. You survive one turn of magic and shooting takes over(that 1 turn of shooting will on average kill 2 units of horrors). hails of bolts or arrows will decimate t3 horrors and flamers need to get extremely close to do damage.
You have raised a very valid point though, the survivability of the lord. Perhaps a dragon would not be out of the question. Along with dragon armour, enchanted shield and some good luck.

Negativemoney
26-01-2007, 20:12
Not taking a lvl 4 mage against Tzeentch DL is not a wise choice. With little magic defence you start running into problems. Rember that Indigo Fire can prevent you from shooting and can render warmachines useless if it goes off on them.

Granted that the DL list presented here is not a very good one, you still need to watch out for those Chariots. T5 with 5+ ward will go a long way against your archers and war machines. And yes I would charge a block of arches on a hill with a Tzeentch chariot they will be broken from impact hits alone regarless of what the daemons do in combat.

I would give most non defensive Highelf lists 1 maybe 2 turns of shooting before all the chaos begins in thier ranks.