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Reflex
25-01-2007, 23:05
I am posting this because i feel it necessary for people to put all there wingin and whining energy into something better, something that will install fear into the heart of any bretonnian general, to make other races full of courage and honor.

seeing as though i am new(ish) to fantasy i cant say to much my self, i have only an iddy biddy bit of exsperience with a few armies (lizardmen, bretonnians, empire, skaven and ogre's) so i cannot comment on tactics... however all is not lost!

it dosent take a numb nut to realise that tehre are many competent Fantasy General on this forums who can crush a bretonnian army with a hammer and some foot troops.

so why not have those generals come forth and share there glorious wisdom on the task at hand?

just say what army you use when thrashing bretonnians (or just breaking them in combat) and then tell us how you did it. (scarletsquig, if you read this i know you have an idea on how to beat the bret army)

I know this may seem a bit odd, but i think there is to much negetive energy (no i am not a hippie) but i think that peoples anger at bretonnians should be re directed so that they can feel happy after a game against bretonnian know that they either beat them, just or gave them a belting, or knowing that they put up a damn good fight that scared the feceas out of the bretonnian general.

i think this thread is long overdue, i know there have been 2 (main ones) post that i have found doing a serch that have focused on how to beat them, but they only focused on 2 armies. this is to focus on every army.

so tell me how you would crush bretonnians!

vampires are cool!
26-01-2007, 00:03
Charge them! If you manage to get the drop on most Bret units you can seriously happer them. As an undead player I can Van Hels a unit into them and then res a unit on the flank.

Smashing the Infantary is trickier, as it doesnt tend to get within charge range often. Again Van Hel comes to the rescue, coupled with some black knights and dire wolves.

The alternative is just to let them charge you. Massed ranks of skeletons and zombies puts a crimp in most peoples style. With Undead, you dont even need fighting characters or flanking units. just necromancers. You'll win the day through shear numbers. For every five they kill, you'll kill one. Not a bad deal when every unit is reseving seven new models a turn.

pcgamer72
26-01-2007, 02:15
It seems like there have been quite a few threads with similar topics to this recently, so I would suggest searching for titles with Bret in them. But maybe I'm imagining things.

Sashu
26-01-2007, 02:39
Learn to flee. Most people don't even think about the fact. As a skaven player, I flee all the time, often my opponents don't even give me the chance, they just move their models, and I have to make the move them back.

Stop everytime you have someone charge you that you think you will lose combat to. Ask, yourself, will I get away? If you can ask if you would rather them fail a charge or be where they would be if your unit were to break. Often, if you flee they will have a failed charge. This will leave them right infront of your lines, set up beautifly for a flank charge.

inane-fedaykin
26-01-2007, 02:41
All the new threads have been "0mgs br3ts r t3h br0k3n!!!!"
I'm still buying my bret army but it seems to me they can't do **** against ranged stuff on a hill blocked by light infantry.

Dspankdo
26-01-2007, 03:58
as a OaG player I generally take 2 dogs of war wizards with the lore of metal, 8 bolt throwers, a lord and a hero on wolves and the rest of the army consisting of wolves and spiders. it looks a bit like this.

Goblin warlord on wolf with the sneaky skewerer, the collar of zorga, light armour and shield.

104pts

Night goblin big boss with the pipes of doom, giant, light armour, shield and martogs best basha.

84pts

2xLevel 2 hireling wizard with power stone.

240pts

Core

4x6 goblin wolf riders with spears, bows, champion and muisician.

416pts

10 spider riders with full command.

160pts

30 night goblins with full command, spears and 3 fanatics.

215pts

10 arrer boyz.

60pts

Special

8 spear chuckas.

280pts


After that there is 450 pts to spend on whatever takes your fancy. I like to take some savage orc big uns with 2 choppas, and some snotlings as fodder.

Vattendroppe
26-01-2007, 06:22
Dunna really, but I think a HE cavallry-army would do the job pretty neat. They've got the charge, they have the armoursave and they've got the wpnskill! They also got the mages with lore of metal. That hurts, my GOD that hurts.

vorac
26-01-2007, 07:16
I agree with VATTENDROPPE, but basically any Heavy Cav army can take them, i played an empire one with loads of cav and i killed them, the VC also have no problem either, i still don't have enough games under my belt against them with my DE but im 50/50

Vattendroppe
26-01-2007, 07:22
The GREAT advantage with HE is the fact that if you play them well you always get the charge... Only thing Brets can do about that is to skip the lance formation. But i guess for an infantry armour fleeing is teh **** (just as Sashu said). Hopefully one can get a front charge and you might just squeeze in a flank-charge also. But only if you're darn lucky.

OT: Darn, now I just MUST arrange a HE cavallry-army. I'm addicted.

Rekmar
26-01-2007, 14:20
I always field HE and the most effective tactic that I've found is to flank the Brets with an eagle riding commander (with bow - magic or otherwise) and a couple of units of Reavers (with bows). I then usually have 3 units of maxed out spearman (two with mages and one with a Prince) to recieve the charges after I have whittled them down a bit with a couple of RBTs.

Have played against Brets five times with three different players - lost the first two times when I didn' t flank them. The third time I played them I flanked them and won.

Following week played a different player who had 'heard' about my flanking and tried to deal with it by exposing his knights flank to the unit of spearman with the prince...

Fifth game was a fluke as I managed to charge two Knight of the Realms units with Spearmen whlist the eagle mounted commander dealt with his stone throwing thing... I believe I should have lost this but got a bit lucky as the player I was playing forgot that elves move 5" not 4"and he stopped his Brets 9" away from me...

Dspankdo
26-01-2007, 14:53
Best thing for high elves is to mount a lord on a griffon and flamk the knights. It's unit strength 5 to ignore ranks and take away any bonus from a banner, you cause 2 wounds and your set even if the bretts hold you'll make em flee eventually. Probably a good idea to hit them in the front with some DP's as well.

Vattendroppe
26-01-2007, 16:07
I think however we can agree that HE is a pretty reliable way to defeat brets if you have som cavallary and flanking units in the list.

Wings of Doom
26-01-2007, 17:38
As a chaos player, I find destorying a lance using two beast herds- one in a wood, the other as bait, the one in the wood being led by a wargor with either a greatweapon, sword of might or the beserker sword.
The first unit flees, and either gets run down (oh no, 60 points of beastmen!) or makes the knights fail their charge, and the other (larger) unit charges in. This has worked for me in small games, but when against larger units I like to set up counter charges using marauders to hold them (with a bit of luck and flails) and chariots or knights to flank and kill.
You can make very nasty fast chaos characters- helm of many eyes, great weapon and a daemonic steed, or disk of tzeentch is very good for going after smaller units, whilst screamers and furies are good at taking out trebuchets and do quite well against bowmen, and pretty much everything in the chaos army can beat men at arms.

Reflex
26-01-2007, 23:04
this is good, i am learning alot.. keep it up.. off to a good start.

i am noticing that alot of the tactics comes down to sacrifice and flank charges.. that seems to be the most common/reliable way to take down bretonnian knights. i suppose that has to be the obvious one when you think about it, because of the incredibly long flanks of lance formation.

good work... cheers

EvC
27-01-2007, 00:48
Anything you've got that can ignore armour saves will pay huge dividends. Bolt Throwers are particularly evil, although the 5+ Ward Save can ruin those plans.

A lot of Bret players seem to start the game hugging their table edge, I wonder if that kind of position can be exploited...

Reflex
27-01-2007, 02:58
Anything you've got that can ignore armour saves will pay huge dividends. Bolt Throwers are particularly evil, although the 5+ Ward Save can ruin those plans.

A lot of Bret players seem to start the game hugging their table edge, I wonder if that kind of position can be exploited...


if it is pesant heavy than yes... all you need is some long range missile fire, and hope to break a unit or 2. even though they are pesants the points can add up if they fall off the table in the first turn. especailly bowmen, they can be nasty at times. even taking off a unit of 20 -30 MaA will annoy the bret player.


just getting a unit of knights to fall of the table in the first turn can be devestating. even if they are a small unit of errant or realm knights.

i am starting to think that psycology is a potent weapon aginst bretonnians during the first turn.

Kahadras
27-01-2007, 09:49
I've found that blackpowder weapons works very nicely. Fleeing is also a good idea if you have a counter charge set up. Just be aware that the Bret player may have some counters set up so you'll need to be careful.

A good example of this was when my High elf opponant set up a counter charge with a bunch of Silver helms into the flank of my main KotR unit. Before he got the chance to charge though I jumped him with my Pegasus Knights and Pegasus riding Paladin. I won the combat, broke and ran down the Silver helms and, to make matter even worse, then ran down the spearman unit he used to bait me in the first place.

I'd also try to kill Pegasus knights as soon as possible. My knights have killed loads of stuff before. Once they get behind my opponants battleline they just hunt down and kill any artillery or small missile units he has. If he doesn't possess any then they work well as a flanking unit.

Kahadras

Reflex
27-01-2007, 12:00
the funny thing about the pegesus knights, is that its not the knight riding them that usually dose the damage, its the bloody flying horse that kicks everyhting in the head! that the funniest part about them!

Neknoh
27-01-2007, 12:38
Strength 7 wielders that can break ranks, placed on the flanks and out of charge range often ensures a shutdown of larger areas of the battlefield, I had two shaggoths create a wide bowling alley in which no bretonnian units dared pass and they started trying to wriggle their way arround the woods behind which the Shaggoths hid, once they got to the correct side and prepared their rush to get through, the shaggoths turned arround and stood there waiting, in the meantime, my knights had gone up the bowling alley, as the Bretonnians turned to face the knights, the shaggoths ran up behind them, putting the brets in a VERY difficult position.

I landed that victory on a dime

EvC
27-01-2007, 14:38
if it is pesant heavy than yes... all you need is some long range missile fire, and hope to break a unit or 2. even though they are pesants the points can add up if they fall off the table in the first turn. especailly bowmen, they can be nasty at times. even taking off a unit of 20 -30 MaA will annoy the bret player.


just getting a unit of knights to fall of the table in the first turn can be devestating. even if they are a small unit of errant or realm knights.

i am starting to think that psycology is a potent weapon aginst bretonnians during the first turn.

Not just in the firts turn, since it's common for Brets to hold back a little until their enemy is in hte perfect place to charge. You're right about peasants, last game I had I stormed a Giant in front of two large units of them, both of whom failed their terror test. They didn't go off the table and next turn my opponent's large unit of Knights with BSB and General had to decide whether to charge my Giant or not- it wouldn't have been hard to fail their terror test as a result. I've had enough units of Knights simply fail a fear test and refuse to charge in my time, which is always fun.

infernus31
27-01-2007, 15:27
I've found as a Lizardmen player heavy in magic that Lore of metals and Beasts can be plain nasty against the Brettonians especially the Beasts Cowers. other then that, charging the Brettonians before they charge you is very helpful Skrimishers are quite good at this hiding in terrain and leaping out at the last second.

Finnaly troops that can take a charge and survive will be helpful, such things as Unbreakable and Stubborn troops might take damage from a charge, but when thwey remain, the Brettonain falnks are wide open.....

chivalrous
27-01-2007, 22:46
I used to be a Bret player but I had a terrible time playing with them.
The big reason fo this was that my main opponent was a High Elf player.

Bretonnians will have a very tough time against anyone who can move as fast or faster than them and this basically means Elves.
High Elves are probably the most difficult since their chariots and fast cav have a longer charge range and the Silver Helms are equal. Meaning if you have a very canny opponent it can be difficult to know whether or not you're in charge range, often making the charge, only to realise you're just outside and leaving you exposed to a charge in the next turn.
Charging High Elf spearmen also gives you a very difficult challenge as those combats tended to result in the Elves holding their ground.
and when it comes to fast cav (Reavers, Dark Riders, Glade riders and Wild Riders), they may not be able to do much damage, but they can get the charge on you and hold you up long enough for the infantry to get stuck in.
I learned to hate the unit of reavers with the champion carrying the blade of Ignoring armour saves (Sea Gold?)

Against other armies, some of it is a case of knowing when to flee with target units, some of it is actually setting units up to be charged, so marching them up to within 9 or 10 inches and then fleeing when then declare the charge, meanwhile having a counter unit set up to take them on in the next turn.

whittling down their unit strength with firepower, even if it's just one or two models will knock off rank bonus, meaning that most large infantry blocks, should be able to hold their own, especially if they have a good save or are armed with spears.

There was an article in White Dwarf years back, which said that the movement phase is the most important in the game, this is more important when facing Bratonnians than any other army.
Against a plaer who is canny with their movement, a Bretonnian player will find themselves having to be cautious or dying horribly.

On the subject of Peasants, I know they don't seem to be all that dangerous, but when you get a unit of 25+ then they are able to win a combat on combat res alone.
Charge these units in the front if you think you can cause 5+ casualties but otherwise outflank them.

As for Pegasus knights, *shrugs* I rarely found them as a player to be all that effective. They can't take on infantry because they have no static combat res, they can't take on cavalry because they'll be outnumbered. All they're really good for is war machine hunting and skirmisher hunting. Reduce the unit to 2 models and they're pretty much useless and with a 3+ armour save that's hardly difficult.

Lord_Meretrix
27-01-2007, 23:48
As an Orcs and Goblins player I deal with them in my normal list without much difficulty. I have five big advantages.

1. Fanatics. I play with 6 of them and you now have to charge through them. On average the charging unit will take 3d6 hit at strength 5 armor peircing from one of my two units of goblins (which I spread out across my army line so that nothing can be charges without releasing the fanatics. The ward save sucks but it is usually enough to cause a panic test (immediate) or to take away enough attacks to make them not very effective against my orc blocks.

2 Fast cav. Brits have to deal with fast cav quickly because they can block and bate and run away so easy. They are also great for flank charges and taking away rank bonus.

3. Giant, nuff said.

4. Squig hopper. Skirmishing, 2 attack each, WS 4, ST 5. Rock on.

5. Fleeing. The most importent thing against ANY army. If you are not going to win the combat and you are not going to hold and you cannot stand and shoot, than why aren't you fleeing?

Hope that helps

dominic_carrillo
28-01-2007, 02:34
UNDEAD: Get some big units and let him charge em!!! then have some powerful units waiting in the wings to lay the smack down. My primary army is the Tomb Kings, and their Chariots can rack up a boatload of S4 hits on the charge. Statistically speaking, your better off with strength four hits against 2+ armor, because that five plus ward save is simply gross.

Kahadras
28-01-2007, 13:19
As for Pegasus knights, *shrugs* I rarely found them as a player to be all that effective. They can't take on infantry because they have no static combat res, they can't take on cavalry because they'll be outnumbered. All they're really good for is war machine hunting and skirmisher hunting. Reduce the unit to 2 models and they're pretty much useless and with a 3+ armour save that's hardly difficult.

I've always seen them as one of the best units Brets can buy. They're fast and maneuverable so your opponant shouldn't get to much oppertunity to shoot them. If he does shoot at them I'm happy as they are quite difficult to hit and he's not shooting at my units of knights or peseants.

They can drive off skirmishers, slow down enemy movement, hunt down warmachines, jump lone characters, tie up shooting units, support other units in combat, run down fleeing enemy units. The list goes on and on. Take a fair size unit and I've found that they usualy do very well.

Kahadras

Elcampbello
28-01-2007, 18:08
Empire detachments work well, no more rank bonus for you mister knight!