PDA

View Full Version : What's the best way to use chaos warriors?



chrisbailey
26-01-2007, 13:05
Just that what do you guys think is the best way to use the big guys? I love the models (other then the fact that I wish they were a little more moveable) and was wanting to start up an army of chaos... Thanks for the help.....

archangel_one
26-01-2007, 13:42
lol, i was just going to post the same thing.

Anyway, are Chaos warriors worth it?

feintstar
26-01-2007, 15:37
Good question guys, I reckon wouldn't mind an answer either. I just don't see why you'd ever take them over Chaos Knights, who are cheaper per decent unit, while expensive unit costs make you have to go MSU anyway.

Only thing I can think of is a Chosen unit with Khorne or the Slaanesh frenzy spell and an extra handweapon. 6 wide at the front... 24 S4 attacks anyone? But that's not a unit that's ever going to make it into combat on its terms unless you're lucky with an unseen lurker.

Maybe they work in horde lists with loads of marauders? Or alongside Beast units?

kyussinchains
26-01-2007, 15:49
many people dislike them as they cost a lot and are only really average killing power.

I use them with halberds and shields in blocks of 15-18, either that or mark them nurgle, give them shields and take 20+ of them with an exalted champion leading them, with the fear, full ranks and powerful character they can break most units.

they probably work best in smaller units as flank chargers, with either halberds or great weapons.

they got a bit nerfed in this edition, I'm hoping they get cheaper or better in future, they could do with +1 S to make them more offensive, or maybe 2-3 points less, or a free weapon upgrade. Something akin to the black orc 'armed to da teef' rule would help!

Hywel
26-01-2007, 16:26
Firstly, warhammer isn't all about having the most effective list known to mankind. If you like something for its looks or character then take it. Far too many people shun chaos warriors simply because they're not as "effective" as knights etc.

That said, they are a difficult unit to get the most of, but not redundant in the list as a result. I regularly include a unit of 18 (deployed 6x3) in my slaaneshi army and have had mixed fortunes with them. Sometimes however they have independantly won the battle for me.

The first thing to consider with chaos warriors is how do you possibly make them 'worth their points'. They're a slow unit with a big reputation so people tend to shoot the hell out of them, avoid them like the plague or gang up on the poor guys so that they can't possibly win.

Therefore you need to give the guys a lot of help. They're already expensive, so my logic is you might as well spend a tiny percentage of their points more to make them as hard as possible. Firstly shields are essential on all flavours of chaos warrior. The extra save against shooting is obvious and the option to switch to a 3+ save when they're looking at a unit of knights the wrong way is eminently desirable.
However, I'd not recommend leaving them with shields and best wishes. They will become an obvious target for tarpits such as zombies, slayers and many other family favourites. This is where I choose to arm mine with additional hand weapons. With my frontage of 6 and the champion it means the unit can kick out 13 strength 4 attacks at high weapon skill. This makes them very capable of dealing with 'throwaway' and tarpit units quickly which is vital. Chaos Warriors are a slow unit that need to be getting through crap units as quickly as possible to bring their strength to bear on the VP sources of the enemy.
Furthermore, I'm very fond of a war banner when the knights are bored of using it. It's essentially an extra rank for 25pts. You can't even get two warriors for that normally.

So the above setup gives me a very tough heart to an army. It's marked and thus immune to psychology, it's well armoured and has respectable killing power. It's often not enough though. Canny opponents will avoid and flank the poor devils.

Therefore step two in using your chaos warriors is to use them in conjunction with other troops (obviously...). Your other units need to be making avoidance of the unit as difficult or as costly as possible. I tend to run a lot of fast units around the warrior core. Mounted daemonettes, beastherds, knights... whatever you have available to stop the enemy prancing off so easily. Remove their fast elements with your own and march the warriors straight where the enemy doesn't want them going.

There are other ways of ensuring the warriors get something juicy to fight. In my slaanesh army for example the heightened speed of my spawn is an ideal way to race ahead (well...:p) and pin the enemy in place for the warriors. Strength 3 enemies in particular are rather poor of getting rid of the thing.
Also with my slaanesh I have access to an excellent spelldeck that can manipulate enemy movement. Obviously delusions can force the enemy towards them (or away!), but making an enemy unit frenzied/unbreakable limits charge responses and hampers control of the target unit. Of course, the same spells can also be cast on the warriors to make them even harder in combat.

So those are basically the ways I use a big chunk of warriors: kit them out sensibly with flexibility in mind and use them as part of the army. They're not to be used as the superunit operating alone taking all comers.


A more common use of warriors seems to be MSU style. I can't say I'm very experienced in this role so its probably best I let someone who is take the soapbox on that one. If I did it myself I'd probably be doing it with chosen carrying shields and halberds. Their attacks are already high, so might as well boost the strength!


edit: I forgot to mention that against shooting armies you'll be wanting your hound screens to hand ;)

kyussinchains
26-01-2007, 18:05
the problem against most shooting armies, unless you're using no hills, your hound screens will do nothing except get in the way, a unit on a hill can see over them and shoot the unit behind them...

Murderous Monkey
26-01-2007, 18:36
Therefore you need to give the guys a lot of help. They're already expensive, so my logic is you might as well spend a tiny percentage of their points more to make them as hard as possible. Firstly shields are essential on all flavours of chaos warrior. The extra save against shooting is obvious and the option to switch to a 3+ save when they're looking at a unit of knights the wrong way is eminently desirable.
However, I'd not recommend leaving them with shields and best wishes. They will become an obvious target for tarpits such as zombies, slayers and many other family favourites. This is where I choose to arm mine with additional hand weapons. With my frontage of 6 and the champion it means the unit can kick out 13 strength 4 attacks at high weapon skill. This makes them very capable of dealing with 'throwaway' and tarpit units quickly which is vital. Chaos Warriors are a slow unit that need to be getting through crap units as quickly as possible to bring their strength to bear on the VP sources of the enemy.
Furthermore, I'm very fond of a war banner when the knights are bored of using it. It's essentially an extra rank for 25pts. You can't even get two warriors for that normally.


I like the idea of this, but that unit (assuming a warbanner) comes in at almost 400 points! I'm just speculating but I'd have thought a smaller unit of chosen with shields would be a better use of points if there's only one warrior unit in the army. For an extra 3 points per model you get the benefit a better armour save AND the extra attack - it really is a winner! I'd save the points by shaving a few warriors off the unit. A unit of 15 with full command is marginally cheaper and seems to have better prospects in hand to hand combat with a 2+ save and 2 strength 4 attacks apiece. I'd still rank them 6 wide (and just have an incomplete rank at the back) for the additional attacks.

Just a thought for the sake of comparison.

My own warriors come in a unit of 12 with shields and full command. They're not optimised in any way shape or form but I like the idea of them too much for them not to be used. I've found so far that many opponents still shoot at my warriors and if I can support them with an offensive spell or two they should win a combat against enemy line units despite their own low numbers. I'll probably add a second unit when I've painted up more of my army, just because they're such an integral part of how I imagine chaos armies. They look nice when painted up too.

pcgamer72
26-01-2007, 18:59
Chaos Warriors also work great as small, flanking units. Take 10 of them with Halberds or Great Weapons and they work great if you also use big Marauder blocks as Anvils.

In my main tourney list right now, I use a small unit that just supports my lord. This unit is worth a lot of points, but I find that it gets tje job done, if you learn to use some of the rest of your army in their own roles, while still protecting your Lord's unit.

Hywel
26-01-2007, 19:44
the problem against most shooting armies, unless you're using no hills, your hound screens will do nothing except get in the way, a unit on a hill can see over them and shoot the unit behind them...

Correct.

Murderous Monkey, would you believe I've never looked at how much a chosen unit would cost? I just don't feel right taking them in 2000pts. However, your point is very interesting and I may try them out.

Winterkampf
26-01-2007, 20:10
Very interesting thread! 2 questions:

- Since the marks affect radically their performance. What's the best way to use and equip marked Warriors?

- As much as warriors take flak, Chosen Warriors are even less appreciated (at least by the general consensus that I picked up reading the old chaos tactica thread). Has anyone figured out a way of using them effectively? (other than Murderous Monkey's). What about Marked Chosen Warriors? Overkill? Points sink?

Cheers

Murderous Monkey
26-01-2007, 20:45
Hywel: I can well believe it. I don't use Chosen either, but when thinking about your suggestion I was tempted to run some numbers and see how unit costs would compare.

Winterkampf: As you might guess from my response to Hywel my suggestion was far from play-tested and probably isn't how I'd use Chosen myself.

Chosen Warriors have the crippling problem that they are slow and highly expensive. They can easily come out at the same price as most heavy cavalry within the game and that's their chief problem. A huge amount of points in a unit that won't necessarily be dictating the pace of the game and can't get stuck in as quickly as it'd like.

Short of odd scenarios (ever tried defending castle wall with Chosen? Mmmmm...) I would hesitate to field them at all. They really are that costly. And I collect Chaos because of how awesome Chaos infantry was when I first played (as an impressionable lad of tender years) in the thrilling days of 3rd edition. (Plus the models I guess.)

If you're determined then a small unit is probably the way forward - I'd take a unit of 12 with a warbanner. That's all the static res I could ever justify. I'd give them shields whatever the weather and would consider halberds against some armies, Dwarves for example. Thats still 307 points for the unit (without halberds). However, if you are going to blow that kind of points on a warrior unit it's worth thinking about how Chosen would compare. If you're not... well you aren't going to be fielding Chosen warriors at all are you?


Marks... well I'm not sure that Marks effect the set-up of a unit too much really. Obviously you can adjust a bit, Khorne are more likely to want halberds and Nurgle might want larger units in general. Slaanesh and Tzeentch aren't going to change in their set-up a lot though. I suppose MSU is more likely with Tzeentch if you're going magic crazy... but if you're fielding many warrior units it's going to have to be MSU anyway because otherwise you'll have almost no army! But the reality is I'd mark units for personality and modelling options rather than raw effectiveness myself. I'm one of those chaps who puts background and story before raw success.

As to how to use them I'll let those with rather more experience tell you that!

Hywel
26-01-2007, 23:19
I'm one of those chaps who puts background and story before raw success.


Yes me too, perhaps explaining my love of warriors. :p

As for the marks question, each mark plays differently. Slaanesh and undivided are fairly similar in so far as they aren't going to be buggering off without a good fight. Only mild difference is you may be incredibly unlucky with undivided warriors and have them leg it at the first sign of panic/terror and they can be autobroken by fear. The Slaanesh downside is no flee as a charge reaction, but if you're considering fleeing with a slow moving 3-400pt unit you're rather missing the point I feel.

Tzeentch warriors can and will hitch up their skirts and dart off at the first sign of trouble. I've seen them do this several times, Ld8 is above average but still not all that reliable. The really do suffer from having no defense against psychology. So I'd agree with MSU to maximise on their power dice and to minimise the effect of some bad leadership rolls.

Khorne warriors are another unit I have fought against and experienced from afar. They're ludicrously nasty. Particularly chosen varieties with halberds or great weapons. They're possibly the best of the bunch provided you're experienced in avoiding the downfalls of frenzy. They're largely immune to psychology, have much increased killing power and give you a valuable dispel die.
However, they're distinctly less scary if there is a unit of handgunners on the table, so in a 'take-on-all-comers' list they're probably best off in small units.

For me to comment on Nurgle involves a bit of theory-hammer as I've not used them and only fought against them once. Their fear-causing is not to be underestimated. Yes large units are desirable for fear and this is a large investment. They'll also probably be whittled down to a small number owing to their potency.
However, its still handy in small units if you're clever. If you take many other fear causing troops (minotaur, spawn, other nurgle units, daemons) then in combined combats (which you're ideally looking for with chaos after all) it can all mount up to an autobreak quite easily.
Also there is the defensive aspect. Against undead and daemon armies you negate a massive advantage of the enemies. In all games there is a chance the enemy may fail a charge against you which can be vital for heavy infantry.
So they're certainly potent, but possibly the most difficult to use considering their high mark cost. Also this is largely theory. The only time I played against one they had a big unit that got mauled, but then I was playing as empire...

mark.
27-01-2007, 09:28
Ive read a amazing topic about them:

http://www.warvault.net/warhammer_realm/viewtopic.php?t=163&sid=894091c6fd9a709393f29c0fd11d4e6a

Finnigan2004
27-01-2007, 18:01
Chosen khorne warriors, as mentioned before get crazy numbers of attacks. If you place one of your heroes in the unit, they become even better (the helm of many eyes can help the warriors survive a charge by killing off the enemy front rank. This gives the rest of the warriors greater ability to strike back and win combat). Even regular khorne warriors get three attacks each when armed with additional hand weapons, and can be very effective. Remember that they can carry shields with the additional weapon, so they get more flexibility and survivability for +1 point each. As stated above though, these units are a little pricey for what you get sometimes.