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Rathgar
16-07-2005, 16:05
Finally got hold of a copy of Liber Chaotica (nice work MvS!) and it got me thinking (yes, I know I think too much...), so figured I’d open a discussion on the nature of Death and the Soul in Warhammer.

We know souls exist. The Chaos god crave them, necromancers can enslave them etc. But their nature seems a tad ill defined. LC and other sources I have read lead to the argument that the soul is a product of the Aethyr and that when a mortal dies its essence dissipates into the Realm of Chaos where it fragments and eventually resurface in entities solely governed by whatever that aspect was (and emotion a felling etc) thus creating the Gods etc.

I see two things in the way of this theory: Necromancy and Morr.

First off; Morr. He (or equivalent race god) owns all the soul not given over totaly to another God (like the big four). They go to his realm, where I always figured he judges them, that’s why vampires fear death so much, they still have to answer to their crimes before Morr. We know this is true because priests of Morr have the ability to “cross over” souls and similar talents concerned with passage. How can the soul both be eternal (and if you like guarded) and dissipate?

Similarly, Necromancy. It’s a direct raid on Morr’s kingdom. Souls are stolen from him and forced into servitude. Now can this happen if the Soul is not complete after death? I’d take vast magical energy I would have thought to steal bits off the gods and reassemble an essence.

And how about ghosts? And similar creatures like banshees bared from Morr’s realm (if such a place exists)?

I have a few ideas how to remaby this, like there being two components to the soul but I though I’d ask if i’m making an elementary mistake about it all and if its all already been cleared up.

RobC
16-07-2005, 16:10
Without putting too much thought into it, I'd always assumed that Morr's protection of souls was more doctrinal than actual. Morr's priests might be able to help the dead escape desecration by necromancers, and perhaps even the most devout contribute to the entity that is Morr, but I would imagine the vast majority of souls end up in the warp with nary a prayer.

Arnizipal
16-07-2005, 16:46
So for most people in the Warhammer World there is no hope of a pleasant afterlife, but an almost certain damnation into the hellish realm that is the Warp? :eek:

Nice... :eyebrows:

RobC
16-07-2005, 16:58
No, it's worse than that. The soul dissolves into the warp, meaning that you essentially cease to exist. It's oblivion by any other description.

Rathgar
16-07-2005, 16:59
How then are ancient corpses reanimated after the original soul has long since dissipated?

Is just any old soul that’s still “defined” if you like used?

Griefbringer
16-07-2005, 17:24
Do you really need anything of a soul to re-animate an old corpse? I had the understanding that skeletons were pretty much mindless automatons, only acting by the will of their creator.

Arnizipal
16-07-2005, 17:35
For zombies and skeletons you don't need souls, but for more powerful undead (Wights, Spirit Hosts) you do.

Griefbringer
16-07-2005, 17:38
Well, with wights the souls have never actually departed from the body, but remain tied to it after the death, due to some curse.

The Pale Lady
16-07-2005, 18:16
There is certainly a 'spirit world' somewhere because the histroy of hte necracrch vampires talks of how their forefather used to leave his body and walk the paths of the dead, effectively 'dying' and going to this misty, cloudy ethereal realm somewhere and talk with the spirits and ghosts their.

RobC
16-07-2005, 18:50
Doesn't sound like it fits too well with the pre-existing theory of the Warp. Maybe there is a 'spirit realm' of souls still tied to the material world, trapped between the two for whatever reason.

Eversor
16-07-2005, 19:35
:chrome: Read the old RoC books. They have the lowdown on how things work ;)

Rathgar
16-07-2005, 19:37
I don’t buy it. If you’re just magically animating corpses why don’t you make constructs (because that’s all they are) out of stronger material?

There are repeated references to “eternal enslavement” in undeath, I’m sure you need souls to animate corpses. But I could well be wrong.

MvS
16-07-2005, 21:37
The imagery for the dead and undead in Warhammer and 40K is very jumbled and inconsistent, with different fluff writers just making up their own stuff off the cuff to suit whatever it is they are trying to put across.

I mean, what exactly is the 'spirit world' supposed to be? It doesn't fit with all the descriptions of what the Warp is at all. It's fine and dandy to have the mythologies and religions of the Warhammer World preaching whatever they like with regards to the afterlife, but it doesn't fit with the objective description of what souls are supposed to be in the Warhammer imagery and what happens them after death.

I also dislike the idea of vampires essentially being Buffy-esque daemon possessed dead people. Daemon-possessed are daemon-possessed, vampires are different. They don't like daemons and are detached from Chaos, similar to Nagash.

Eldacar
17-07-2005, 08:46
Just off the top of my head, the spirit world could be a kind of "in-between" wedged in between the Warp and the material world. What it would contain would be those souls that don't go to the Chaos Gods, and this realm would be what Morr protects/has guardianship of. However, Necromancers, Vampires and so on can reach into this world and forcibly return those souls to the material world and enslave them to their will.

Does that work?

Bubble Ghost
17-07-2005, 11:01
I also dislike the idea of vampires essentially being Buffy-esque daemon possessed dead people. Daemon-possessed are daemon-possessed, vampires are different. They don't like daemons and are detached from Chaos, similar to Nagash.

Same here. The whole "vampires don't have a soul" thing bugs me too, as does the way their faces and claws get nastier and more bestial when they're in a womper. Buffy was a great TV show but, as with anything that successful, it went and imposed itself on other stuff, annoyingly. I tend to just ignore the Buffy bits, or we'll end up with Mannfred von Carstein having bleached hair and saying things like "cor blimey, the Grand Theogonist went and unbinded me bloody army Mary Poppins, what a pooooof."

~

Eldacar's idea might well work re. the 'spirit world'. Kind of like a ghostly purgatory. It would certainly explain why banshees and ghosts are so damn miserable all the time.

Arnizipal
17-07-2005, 11:16
Same here. The whole "vampires don't have a soul" thing bugs me too, as does the way their faces and claws get nastier and more bestial when they're in a womper.

IIRC correctly, Vampires have always been able to do that. Looking at some older models, those would have a hard time trying to pass as humans in their 'fighting form'.


Eldacar's idea might well work re. the 'spirit world'. Kind of like a ghostly purgatory. It would certainly explain why banshees and ghosts are so damn miserable all the time.
I like the idea, but where exactly would this fall in terms of the 'overlapping gods' theory. Morr is part of Nurgle (stasis), right? Would Nurgle be able to draw power from this 'spirit realm'?

Gazak Blacktoof
17-07-2005, 11:47
Okay lets see if I can have a go at working this through.

According to the Liber Chaotica the souls of the dead disipate and become part of the Warp/ Aethyr. Only those souls that "belong" to the gods through a pact or else through force of will like the souls of wizards stay intact after death. IMHO retaining a state of consciousness in the warp is a far more grissly fate, internal servitude, pain and suffering until the end of time and all that. Once "normal souls" have become part of the Aethry they dissipate and the emotions and thoughts that are strongest within them collect together, these collections of thoughts (basic concepts) and emotions can eventually atain a state of consciousness of sorts.

Pressuming that daemons are portions of a god's being (or are at least similar, both being creatures of the aethyr) and that daeomns can be bound and manipulated it must be possible to bind or manipulate a soul. This leaves us with the question of where you get a soul to bind.

The traditional view of ghosts/ poltergheists is that they have unfinnished business or are in some other way unrestful, unable to totally forsake the mortal realm. Perhaps these souls are kept whole in the aethyr after death in the same way that a wizard might retain a state of self after death i.e. through force of will. These souls can then be manipulated by necromancers.

Eldacar
17-07-2005, 12:06
I like the idea, but where exactly would this fall in terms of the 'overlapping gods' theory. Morr is part of Nurgle (stasis), right? Would Nurgle be able to draw power from this 'spirit realm'?
Do you draw power from, say, your hand? Your heart sends blood to it to keep it "alive", so to speak, and in return, you can use it. That's kind of how I see it working, as a symbiotic sort of relationship. Not a good analogy, but I can't think of anything better right now.


This leaves us with the question of where you get a soul to bind.
That's why I threw out the "soul realm" idea. So the "ghosts and poltergeists" would be in the soul realm, and necromancers etc. would be able to maniuplate them in that manner.

MvS
17-07-2005, 13:09
I dislike the idea of yet another spirit world, neither the Warp or the real world. Again, it defeats the object of what the Warp is.

However, it could be made to work if the 'spirit world' is also the mortal world. So existing at the same time in the same space as the mortal world, actually 'on top' of and part of the mortal world, only it is completely immaterial.

The ghosts that are trapped upon the mortal plane are the souls or soul frgaments of those people who have died, but due to curses, spells, leyline, warpstone, a massively strong will and any number of other factors, they haven't left the mortal world yet - they are just transparent, immaterial and 'ghostly'.

Of course their presence would rely upon a magically saturated environment - much like daemons. Although it would take less magic saturation for a mortal soul to remain behind than it would take for a daemon to manifest.

Those with the eyes to see it can see this 'other' realm that exists on top of our own (and is, in fact, our own realm), populated by ghosts, spirits, the magical echoes of other dead things like the odd tree or animal. This could explain Necrarch vampires and the like who see the 'world of the dead' more clearly than they do the world of the living - so the spirits that exist all around us but are completely invisible and insubstantial are entirely visible and tangible to them.

Sometimes, when the Winds of Magic blow very strongly or when a spellcaster wields strong magics, the more coherent of the spirits trapped upon the mortal plane can manifest themselves as ghosts, wraiths, poltergeists and so on.

But again, this isn't a separate realm that is neither the Warp or the mortal world, it is just another way of seeing and experiencing the mortal world. Gods and daemons can influence both these aspects of the mortal world, but they can effect the immaterial aspect of the mortal world even more easily, because it is shouldn't exist anyway- it's existence is dependant upon magic leaking across the world, and therefore upon the Warp.

Sound good?

Gazak Blacktoof
17-07-2005, 13:12
I'm not keen on a spirit realm seperate from the warp, they are after all the same thing essentially. As I said some souls remain whole within the warp, perhaps it is only these souls that necromancers can fully manipulate. An entire soul is unnecessary in most circumstances though IMHO. A skelton or zombie probably only requires a part of the soul for re-animation so a fragment might be all that is required, they aren't required to do any thinking, they are only required to kill. This would also explain why elements of the undead army are more capable of independent thought. A tomb guard for example underwent a far more lengthy preservation process than average "joe" skeleton, but not as much as a tomb king. Perhaps these processes bound the soul to greater or lesser extents.

A seperate spirit world is unlikely in warhammer simply because the soul exists in the warp whilst a person is still alive. Its unlikely that they get transfered to a holding area the instant after death whilst some clerk of the gods sorts the good from the bad etc.

EDIT: What MvS said above sounds plausible to me, at least the Wahammer sense of the word.

Rathgar
17-07-2005, 13:22
To clarify on vampires, they have a soul. In the 5th Ed book it says they have to answer before Morr for their crimes in life, that’s why they fear death.

No one has yet explained the soul-recall in undead creatures after long periods I’m certain this or something similar happens in Necromancy, the soul dissolving in the warp theory just doesn’t cut it when it comes to this. Skeletons can remember fait memories of ancient battles, how is this possible? Even if only a tiny fragment is called back like the memories I mentioned, surely those memories would now be part of Khorne’s essence?

And if the soul exists in both the physical body and the warp simultaneously, why do creatures with “unfinished business” as its put remain in the physical world only, completely disconnected from both the Realm of Chaos AND their previous bodies? I like the magic sustaining them idea, but that would mean that wizards etc could see the dead presumably? If they are now magically sustained beings, would this not drive anyone with the witch sight as mad as a Necrach?

The notion of “Warp presence” and creating Gods and stuff like that works very well for 40k but I think it has problems translating over to Warhammer. If I had it my way the Warp of 40k and the RoC of Warhmmer would be very much separate things.

Gargh! There are big, big clashes with the Undead and the Chaos background.

My personal take on it is there has to be something maybe more that just “the psyche” that seems to define “souls” in warhmmer currently. Thought and concepts dissolve and reassemble as entities in the RoC. But perhaps something lingers…

RobC
17-07-2005, 20:25
Clearly, we have a number of different forms of undead. There are undead creatures that contain the soul of the once-living creature, bound to their carcass. There are also magical constructs such as skeletons that perhaps don't have their original souls, but a portion of warp energy that gains a 'memory' from its host body - memories of war etc etc.

I very much doubt a soul can come back from the warp once it has dissolved into it. Souls trapped in the material world, on the other hand, are probably fair game. Perhaps Morr's priests try and ensure that their flock don't become trapped in the material realm?

Eldacar
18-07-2005, 07:58
However, it could be made to work if the 'spirit world' is also the mortal world. So existing at the same time in the same space as the mortal world, actually 'on top' of and part of the mortal world, only it is completely immaterial.

The ghosts that are trapped upon the mortal plane are the souls or soul frgaments of those people who have died, but due to curses, spells, leyline, warpstone, a massively strong will and any number of other factors, they haven't left the mortal world yet - they are just transparent, immaterial and 'ghostly'.

Of course their presence would rely upon a magically saturated environment - much like daemons. Although it would take less magic saturation for a mortal soul to remain behind than it would take for a daemon to manifest.

Those with the eyes to see it can see this 'other' realm that exists on top of our own (and is, in fact, our own realm), populated by ghosts, spirits, the magical echoes of other dead things like the odd tree or animal. This could explain Necrarch vampires and the like who see the 'world of the dead' more clearly than they do the world of the living - so the spirits that exist all around us but are completely invisible and insubstantial are entirely visible and tangible to them.

Sometimes, when the Winds of Magic blow very strongly or when a spellcaster wields strong magics, the more coherent of the spirits trapped upon the mortal plane can manifest themselves as ghosts, wraiths, poltergeists and so on.

But again, this isn't a separate realm that is neither the Warp or the mortal world, it is just another way of seeing and experiencing the mortal world. Gods and daemons can influence both these aspects of the mortal world, but they can effect the immaterial aspect of the mortal world even more easily, because it is shouldn't exist anyway- it's existence is dependant upon magic leaking across the world, and therefore upon the Warp.

Sound good?
So basically, there's my idea of a "soul realm", but in actuality, it exists right on top of the material realm? Sounds good to me.

RobC
18-07-2005, 09:40
Hmm. That's pretty much what I meant to say. Concordance?

MvS
18-07-2005, 10:55
Yes, but just to clarify how I would see it at least, it would be a 'realm' in name only.

It wouldn't be a plane of existence or whatever. The spirit realm that necromancers see and draw upon is in fact just the mortal world, but through the 'spirit-sight' or witchsight. All they see are the spirits and soul fragments and psychic impressions and echoes of once living things superimposed upon the mortal world - those things that are either trapped or bound upon the mortal plane, or indeed just haven't 'moved on' yet.

As for various wizards being able to see this world, I think they would, yes. And I imagine it would drive some of them mad. Only those people born with the witchsight can see the movements of magic around the world, but how they perceive it is different. Some will see the actual colours of magic, others will see analogies and representations of the winds, others will see auras, other people's dreams, nightmares, thoughts, emotions and so on. Some will see departing and trapped souls as well (especially magisters that use Shyish and of course necromancers).

Some might see all of the above - poor devils...

:)

Eldacar
18-07-2005, 11:05
There is still the point where there are Necrarch Lords who have "walked the paths of the spirit world", so it would be, to a degree, different, IMO. Of course, if somebody can prove otherwise, then I'll be happy with the explanation.

Bubble Ghost
18-07-2005, 15:18
IIRC correctly, Vampires have always been able to do that. Looking at some older models, those would have a hard time trying to pass as humans in their 'fighting form'.

The older vampire models were just generic Hammer horror/Nosferatu freakshow things without any real theory behind them, they would have looked like that all the time in much the same way as Strigoi/Necrach vampires do. It's Buffy that really popularised the whole "game face" idea, a spin on vampiric shapeshifting that worked its way into vampire mythology at large thanks to the success of the show.



However, it could be made to work if the 'spirit world' is also the mortal world. So existing at the same time in the same space as the mortal world, actually 'on top' of and part of the mortal world, only it is completely immaterial.

That's more or less what I thought Eldacar meant, so I agree there. That's pretty much how I thought of it anyway.

The Pale Lady
18-07-2005, 17:36
MMMmmm Eldarcar, how does this sound about the Necrarch dilemma, when they 'walk the paths of the spirit world' their physical bodies dont move, they go into a trance. Their spirit breaks free and is to all effects and purposes a ghost, or member of the spirit realm. They can walk around as a dead spirit and commune with the ither spirits of the dead. Then, when theyre done they return to their body and 'wake up'....yeah?

MvS
18-07-2005, 22:10
I would say that the lack of perception between the material and immaterial upon the mortal plane goes both ways.

So just as the vast majority of people never see, feel or perceive in any way the many spirits, soul fragments and psychic echoes around them, so too do the spirits, soul fragments and psychic echoes not see, feel or perceive the mortal world around them.

But there are exceptions, on both sides of the divide. Some living mortals can see, feel and perceive in different ways the spirit reality around them (mostly Necromaners, Vampires, Liche-Priests, some Magisters and Sorcerers), and some spirits can perceive the mortal reality around them (Wraiths, Wights, Banshee, some ghosts, etc).

So it would be like some people being able to see and 'feel' in ultra-violet, and then perceiving a whole world of ultra-violet entities.

Anyway, I would suggest that all vampires can see both the spirit aspect of the mortal world as well as the material aspect of the mortal world. Necrarchs, I think, begin to see the mortal aspect of the world less and less clearly (like hazy shadows), while seeing the spirit aspect of the world more and more clearly. It may even get to the point where they do not see mortal things at all, but instead see only the Winds of Magic, spirits, auras and so on, so they only see the magical, spiritual and psychic.

This would mean that they would still be able to see everything a human could, but in a very different way. A necrach would see the spirit selves of every living thing rather than the physical self, and they would see the magical echo of things like castles rather than the physical, 'living' aspect. Think of the Hell sequences in the film Constantine, where the images of Hell are the same places with the same landmarks as the mortal world, but altered by the general 'aura' of Hell into ruins or just general nastiness.

A Necrarch who 'walks in the spirit world' might be one who has shut off his mortal eyes altogether, seeing the world only as a dead spirit echo, populated only by the soul fragments of the dead, etc.

I picture this in much the same way as the Neil Gaimen 'The Kindly Ones' where the woman who rouses the Furies embarks on a kind of quest which could be seen in two ways, both of them true. In one she is a tramp staggering around the streets apparently hallucinating, in the other she is actually walking through metaphysical worlds, meeting with ghosts and gods. Both of these actually happen. Both are 'real'.

Maybe that's the 'vision-quest' of Necrarchs and maybe this is also what happened to nagash. Maybe Nagash's soul actually left his dead body without even realising, wandering around the dead landscape of the spirit aspect of the mortal world, only to find its way back and possess its body once more - neither truly dead nor alive...

MvS
19-07-2005, 11:19
...oh, and I agree that vampires have a soul, not a possessing daemon.

I see vampires as entirely cut off from the Chaos Realm, having drawn all of their soul and spirit energy into their physical bodies, binding it there for eternity. This means they have little warp vortices within them than cannot be replenished through 'natural' means within the warp, hence they have to draw it from other living things.

In the case of Strigoi, they don't need to feed frequently (like Necrarchs), and when they do they eat the faiding spirit energy of the recently deceased, although they are cerainly not above killing mortals and eating their still-warm flesh, just like ghouls.

RobC
19-07-2005, 12:41
So are we to expect a background book on the undead from you any time soon, MvS? ;)

Rathgar
19-07-2005, 12:59
So are we to expect a background book on the undead from you any time soon, MvS? ;)

God I hope so. Is their an official MvS fan club I can join?

Liber Mortis’d be a good name for it.

MvS
19-07-2005, 23:48
:)

Seeing as D&D just released a book called 'Libris Mortis' I doubt BL Publishing would release a book titled Liber Mortis.

Brusilov
20-07-2005, 06:33
Let's go for the Necronomicon then... I don't think there are copyrights on that (or at least no longer) ;)

RobC
20-07-2005, 11:03
Nah, you'll have occultists buying it, then returning it with complaints that it wasn't insane enough. ;)

Drakemaster
20-07-2005, 15:59
Going from the ideas posted so far, plus the idea that souls dissipate into the warp when their owner dies, the thought occurs to me that perhaps one could see the 'spirit world' as part of the wind of Shyish. Perhaps departing souls leave an echo of themselves within the wind of Shyish when they die, or (seeing as the winds of magic come from the realm of chaos) a portion of their soul flows back into the physical world via the winds of magic. This would explain the close similarities between Necromancy and Amethyst magic, the fact both necromancers and Amethyst wizards have a form of 'spiritsight', able to see the spirits of the departed 'overlaying' the material world. After all, these wizards are able to see and manipulate the wind of Shyish, so why does it need a separate 'spirit world' for them to see and manipulate the spirits of the departed? Of course some souls have a stronger presence within this, having either never truly dissipated into the realms of chaos (for example Wights) or through force of will (Wraiths?).

Bubble Ghost
20-07-2005, 16:19
Nah, you'll have occultists buying it, then returning it with complaints that it wasn't insane enough.

Them or Evil Dead fans. "Are all necromancers loudmouthed braggarts?" "Nope - just me, baby!"


so why does it need a separate 'spirit world' for them to see and manipulate the spirits of the departed?

As I understand how people have been talking about it, "spirit world" is a metaphor. Like the world of the ocean bed, or world of bacteria. A seperate world in the sense of something that for whatever reason you don't normally see or interact with.

ryng_sting
13-08-2005, 16:34
Thoughts:

(i) where do the Orcs, their souls and their gods fit in to everything? They generate their own magic, are their gods equally generated from Orc input alone?

(ii) Most human souls dissipate over time; time is an admittedly fluid thing when dealing with the aethyr. But how about the Tomb Kings, or Volkmar, who were all ressurrected long after their deaths, and yet each returned with their consciousness (comparatively) intact?

RobC
13-08-2005, 20:36
(i) Greenskins don't generate their own magic, they merely draw it from the warp. They're all slightly psychic, essentially. Shamans then draw this magic from their less sensitive brethren and channel it into spells.

(ii) Wasn't Volkmar's soul trapped in his own body by the Chaos sorcerors that killed him? As to the tomb kings, I can only guess that Nehekaran magic was at a stage where they could somehow bind the soul to the corpse, but hadn't yet managed to unite the two fully. This would have meant that the 'spirit world' around Nehekara would have been rather crowded; at least, round the tombs, anyway.

How does that grab you?

ryng_sting
14-08-2005, 10:32
Nah; I remember that Archaon himself slew Volkmar in single combat.

Mvs, what's your take on it?

Bubble Ghost
14-08-2005, 10:57
"Single combat" is a bit of an exaggeration for what would have happened when the 7', armour-plated, magic-infused, daemon weapon-wielding chosen champion of all Northmen took on a wobbly old priest. Not so much "slew" as "euthanised" I would think.

Anyway, Volkmar was actually killed by Archaon, but his body was recognised by Be'lakor, who used his super-duper daemon prince powers to fish around in the Realm of Chaos for Volkmar's soul and bring it back to his body. Might have been fairly recently after his death I suppose.

MvS
14-08-2005, 11:10
I have a problem with the whole Be'Lakor and Volkmar thing. If Volkmar wasn't in any way saved after his death by Sigmar, then there's isn't much hope for anyone really.

I suppose we could say that the reason Volkmar's soul didn't fragment in the Warp is because he was particularly powerful in terms of his will power and faith. So Be'Lakor was able to find his soul relatively intact. As for why Volkmar, the greatest and truest living Sigmarite, wasn't looked-out for by Sigmar after death... well, perhaps Sigmar has his own plans for Volkmar and deliberately left him adrift in the Warp, knowing the Be'Lakor would work his mojo and bring Volkmar back.

I guess that sounds a little better than 'Volkmar was brought back because it sounds good in a SoC post-battle report'.

As for Orcs, RobC is quite right. Their psychology, spirituality and biology may do weird things with it, but Orcs do indeed draw on magic leaking through the Warpgates, and their gods, such as they are, are Warp entities. At least, this is what Rick Priestly's own production notes insist.

:)

ryng_sting
14-08-2005, 17:31
well, perhaps Sigmar has his own plans for Volkmar and deliberately left him adrift in the Warp, knowing the Be'Lakor would work his mojo and bring Volkmar back.

Maybe any god worth His salt has to work in mysterious ways.

*barely ducks in time*

oh come on! someone had to say it.

Sigmar, like the other 'civilised' deities, such as Shallya, Taal, and so on, supposedly absorb into themselves the souls of their most devoted servants. Is this any better than being devoured by a Chaos god, or is the only difference one of terminology?

RobC
14-08-2005, 20:44
It sounds like you're opening up the whole "is Sigmar actually a god?" debate again.

ryng_sting
15-08-2005, 17:36
Wicked me. :D

Personally I don't see that there's anything to debate. He's a small, unique warp entity. End of.

RobC
15-08-2005, 18:55
Assuming the warp entity that is Sigmar is actually Sigmar. It could simply be the hopes and fears of the people who believe in Sigmar manifesting themselves. The actual Sigmar may have simply become one with the Warp...

Wintersdark
13-10-2005, 23:35
So, then....

Bob dies, and his soul leaves the confines of his body; moving free in the spirit world (* being this world, but imperceptible by normal people). If Bob was just a normal person, his soul soon fragments and drifts away into the warp, little bits of thoughts and emotions drifting free in the Aethyr.

However, if Bob had some very important unfinished business, or a very powerful will (and likely a close attunement to the warp, having been a powerful wizard or devout servant of a god) his soul may hold itself together longer. Sometimes, this results in a spirit that haunts a place. Over time, parts of the soul break free and dissipate in the warp, leaving only the base thought/emotion that caused it to remain in the first place. At first, you may have a Ghost named Bob haunting a house, angry at his foul murder, and specifically at the person who murdered him. He seeks revenge. However, over time parts of his soul break away, eventually just leaving anger, hate, and a thirst for revenge, but nothing else left guiding those base emotions. Eventually, over time, it'll all drift away.

On the other hand, particularly strong willed individuals souls hold there souls together better - they too fragment over time, but much slower. This accounts for the Tomb Kings, Wights, etc. Entities who basically refused to dissipate. Due to the gradual erosion of their souls, they become more single-minded and driven over time, but it's a much, much slower process.

Wintersdark
13-10-2005, 23:38
Oh... and Morr - One could see Morr as protecting souls, guiding them to free dissipation as opposed to lingering haunting, or being enslaved by some assorted nasty before it can dissipate.

Skeletons and Zombies? Largely constructs, soulless. However, when a person dies, a small bit of his soul remains in the body - an echo, really. It would then be easier to animate a Skeleton or Zombie magically, as the magic only has to "encourage" the body to do what it was accustomed to doing, rather than completely forcibly animate it as it would have to do with a pure construct.

NakedFisherman
14-10-2005, 00:22
Stop saying 'warp'...as far as I've seen that's strictly 40K terminology.

And who says Be'Lakor doesn't have enough power to revive Volkmar against Sigmar's will? He is the first mortal to become a Daemon Prince, after all.

Arnizipal
14-10-2005, 01:12
Oh... and Morr - One could see Morr as protecting souls, guiding them to free dissipation as opposed to lingering haunting, or being enslaved by some assorted nasty before it can dissipate.

That's a good way of looking at it I think.

Stop saying 'warp'...as far as I've seen that's strictly 40K terminology.

Actually 'warp' can be used for the Warhammer Fantasy as well (after all we do have warpstone ;) ). It's just that most authors prefer terms like 'Aethyr' or 'Realm of Chaos'.


And who says Be'Lakor doesn't have enough power to revive Volkmar against Sigmar's will? He is the first mortal to become a Daemon Prince, after all.
Could be. But then Sigmar would be far weaker than people of the Empire claim/hope he is. It's quite a feat for a 'mere' deamon prince to win from an actual god.

NakedFisherman
14-10-2005, 01:17
Actually 'warp' can be used for the Warhammer Fantasy as well (after all we do have warpstone ;) ). It's just that most authors prefer terms like 'Aethyr' or 'Realm of Chaos'.

Warpstone derives its name from its tendency to mutate and warp things around it. It's also called wyrdstone.


Could be. But then Sigmar would be far weaker than people of the Empire claim/hope he is. It's quite a feat for a 'mere' deamon prince to win from an actual god.

This was, however, during the Storm of Chaos.

And like I said, Be'Lakor was the first mortal to become a Daemon Prince. 'Mere' is not a word I'd use to describe him. :P

Eldacar
15-10-2005, 05:34
Also on Be'lakor, he is worshipped as a god by a couple of Northman tribes, so he does have some backing, plus his "First Daemon Prince" status. He is a lot stronger than other Daemon Princes or Greater Daemons, I think.

Arnizipal
15-10-2005, 15:07
I thought greater daemons where a step up from daemon princes.

Eldacar
15-10-2005, 19:05
Be'lakor isn't an ordinary Daemon Prince (being, like I said, worshipped as a god by some tribes). He is also the first mortal to become one (meaning that he is old and cunning). IMO, he is a step up from Greater Daemons.

RGB
16-10-2005, 23:01
I don't particularly like the "warp" either. Sounds so...Star Trekkish.

And warpstone is indeed named so for the changes it causes.

So question: the existence of Orks proves that you can draw power from "the warp" without Chaos affecting you. True of False?

Wintersdark
16-10-2005, 23:03
False. Orcs don't use the same source of magic that others do. It's not from the warp/realm of chaos/whatever, they generate it themselves.

RGB
16-10-2005, 23:09
False. Orcs don't use the same source of magic that others do. It's not from the warp/realm of chaos/whatever, they generate it themselves.


(i) Greenskins don't generate their own magic, they merely draw it from the warp. They're all slightly psychic, essentially. Shamans then draw this magic from their less sensitive brethren and channel it into spells.


as for Orcs, RobC is quite right. Their psychology, spirituality and biology may do weird things with it, but Orcs do indeed draw on magic leaking through the Warpgates, and their gods, such as they are, are Warp entities. At least, this is what Rick Priestly's own production notes insist.

Hm. So...okay, two sides to this seemigly. If the latter position is true, then my position is also true.

Arnizipal
17-10-2005, 01:52
I don't particularly like the "warp" either. Sounds so...Star Trekkish.

Well, the gate in the north is a called a Warp gate, but then this can also be named after the change it brings.
Still, Gate-to-the-Warp sounds more logical to me. ;)

MvS
17-10-2005, 18:48
Hm. So...okay, two sides to this seemigly. If the latter position is true, then my position is also true.
I have to admit I used to be of the other persuasion - the one about Orcs generating their own magical field. But then I got these notes through from GW Studio giving that notion the slap-down...

Lord Lucifer
18-10-2005, 01:31
[token response]The power found in the Realm of Chaos/Warp/Aether/Spirit realm/whatever other name given to it, is essentially the reflection of all emotions felt by creatures within the corporeal world.

Orcs (and goblins, hobgoblins, snotlings etc.) have emotions just like anyone else. You could argue they are more largely ruled by their emotions vs. logic than most other races, although that fact is largely irrelevant to discussion here.

So Orcs do tend to create the same significant build-up of emotional energy that others do, and certain members of the Goblinoid races (Orcs, gobbos, hobs etc.) are able to manipulate the flow of the Winds of Magic, just as any other race.

So they're using the same substance as any other wizard or mage.
But they're still a bit of a special case all the same.
Orcs tend to be excitable, so maybe they're somehow more closely linked to the aether in some ways, and therefore are a bit more of a conduit for it, explaining why large groups of excited Orcs and Gobbos tend to load Shamans up with power to the point of bursting.


They don't really do anything to further the 'realm of chaos' like normal instances of a heightened magical flow, but they seem to conduct a field of magic quite successfully all the same.
It hasn't really been delved too heavily into before, has it?

Wintersdark
18-10-2005, 04:19
No, but I'd like to see them get into it (and other Greenskin background information) more in the next O&G army book.

O&G's are fun an characterful, but nearly completely devoid of background info in their current book.

Philip S
18-10-2005, 17:29
I dislike the idea of yet another spirit world, neither the Warp or the real world. Again, it defeats the object of what the Warp is.

However, it could be made to work if the 'spirit world' is also the mortal world. So existing at the same time in the same space as the mortal world, actually 'on top' of and part of the mortal world, only it is completely immaterial.

The ghosts that are trapped upon the mortal plane are the souls or soul frgaments of those people who have died, but due to curses, spells, leyline, warpstone, a massively strong will and any number of other factors, they haven't left the mortal world yet - they are just transparent, immaterial and 'ghostly'.

Of course their presence would rely upon a magically saturated environment - much like daemons. Although it would take less magic saturation for a mortal soul to remain behind than it would take for a daemon to manifest.

Those with the eyes to see it can see this 'other' realm that exists on top of our own (and is, in fact, our own realm), populated by ghosts, spirits, the magical echoes of other dead things like the odd tree or animal. This could explain Necrarch vampires and the like who see the 'world of the dead' more clearly than they do the world of the living - so the spirits that exist all around us but are completely invisible and insubstantial are entirely visible and tangible to them.

Sometimes, when the Winds of Magic blow very strongly or when a spellcaster wields strong magics, the more coherent of the spirits trapped upon the mortal plane can manifest themselves as ghosts, wraiths, poltergeists and so on.

But again, this isn't a separate realm that is neither the Warp or the mortal world, it is just another way of seeing and experiencing the mortal world. Gods and daemons can influence both these aspects of the mortal world, but they can effect the immaterial aspect of the mortal world even more easily, because it is shouldn't exist anyway- it's existence is dependant upon magic leaking across the world, and therefore upon the Warp.

Sound good?
Yep, and ties into my ideas on boarder space (40K) and the winds of magic (WHF).

In WHF it seems to me that that the winds of magic are just warp energy manifest in the real world, left over from the time of the fall. (I imagine it to be a much weaker version of ‘a world in the eye of terror’ from 40K).

Colour magic is just using parts of this magic wind to create effects, light magic is using it all to create bigger effects, but to me dark magic doesn’t actually use the winds of magic, it is a link to the warp (since dark/ black is the lack of light it would suggest no magic, but I think this should refer to the void of the warp).

As such, all Psykers in 40K are actually using ‘dark’ magic and tapping directly into the warp, and the reason they aren’t necromancers it because animating the dead requires the presence of the winds of magic. Most worlds in 40K aren’t so lucky ( or is that unlucky!). Though some Psykers could be considered demonologists ;)

This does mean that in the Eye of Terror in 40K that the winds of magic are very strong and even non-Psykers could use ‘magic’, though more through accident and stray thoughts (like the demons from the ID, Forbidden Planet).

Most magicians in WHF are therefore not fully Psykers in the 40K sense, and true Psyker being an order of magnitude greater than a mere ‘wizard’. This is to scale the Psykers effects to match guns for killing potential, and overcome technology and advanced materials.

WHF wizards, especially humans can only use magic because of the winds of magic (the Old World being saturated), but Elves can be full ‘Psykers’, thought I think in WHF they try to contain that aspect.

Not that the two universes are connected or anything!

Philip

Muffin Man
19-10-2005, 06:25
I thought greater daemons where a step up from daemon princes.

I thought they weren't part of the same heirarchy. Something about GDs being manifestations of their particular Chaos God, but DPs have their own will? Hence a GD is more powerful, but a DP is more valuable as it can continue to feed its patron. I know I've heard this somewhere and don't think I'm making this up...

Eldacar
19-10-2005, 09:08
Colour magic is just using parts of this magic wind to create effects, light magic is using it all to create bigger effects, but to me dark magic doesn’t actually use the winds of magic, it is a link to the warp (since dark/ black is the lack of light it would suggest no magic, but I think this should refer to the void of the warp).
Colour magic is using specific aspects of the Winds of Magic (of which, there are eight, and this means eight colours). High Magic (or True Magic) weaves the Winds in harmony with one another, purifying them and erasing the Chaos taint from them. However, in losing this taint, I see High Magic as beginning to lose some of the power. Dark Magic, on the other hand, rips the power it needs and forces it together, and also, it is more "magnifying" the taint, so while it confers more power, it is much more dangerous.

That's how I see it right now, at least.

Lab Monkey
21-10-2005, 13:15
Whights, ghosts etc. = just souls
Skeletons, zombies etc. = just bodies