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NarCiS
16-07-2005, 15:31
Archmage @ 340 (high magic)
2xDispel Scroll
extra lvl
Jewel of Dusk
Ring of Fury

Commander @ 144 (heavens magic) *joins dragon princes
Dragon armour, lance, shield, barded steed
Radiant Gem of Hoeth

Commander @ 121 *joins spearelves with lion standard
Heavy Armour, shield
Lion Guard
Pure of Heart

19 spearelves @ 264
command, Lion Standard

20 spearelves @ 250
command

10 archers @ 120

5 Ellyrian Reavers @ 127
musician

9 Dragon Princes @ 329
command, Amulet of the Purifying Flame, Standard of Balance

2 Repeater Bolt Throwers @ 200

2 Great Eagles @ 100

total points 1995
PD 7(8)
DD 5 + 2 scrolls
70 models

The main idea of the army is to use the immune to panic/terror/fear and leadership 9 stubborn unit (also supported by second sign of amul)
to cut off half the opponenents army in the middle.
This unit can hold for a turn or 2, while the other spear elves position themselves next to the stubborn unit to hold 1 unit, which the dragon princes will then flank charge to completely decimate that flank.

By the time the "cornerstone" unit is destroyed, the enemy will have already lost too many units...

The eagles are there to restrict movement and the Archmage to provide magical support/defense (depending on the opponent)


Any Thoughts are very welcome

thx
NarC

NarCiS
17-07-2005, 09:39
bump

Anyone Any Thoughts??
One-Liners are also welcome

Bergtorp
17-07-2005, 10:26
How would you do with an shooty enemy??

feintstar
17-07-2005, 10:31
Its a really interesting list. every now and then, some1 comes up with a new way of using the radient Gem...

Though I might be inclined to take 2 Normal lvl 2 Mages instead of 1 Archmage. It only costs you 20 more points, and while it gets you the same number of power and dispell dice, it also gets you an extra bound spell (i think).
2 level 2 mages 130 each, add 1 scroll and a ring of fury, another with Ring of Corin and the radient gem.

Then I'd swap the Banner of balance for the Banner of sorcery. I'm not a fan of the banner of Balance except if you regularly face the Undead. But you've already got the other unit, and DPs are Ld 9, so you don't have to worry too much.

I'd get the 25 extra points by dropping the amulet of purifying flame and a spearman from the 20 strong unit.

Overall, you seriously bolstered your offensive magic, while marginally reducing your combat effectiveness and your magical defence. You've also slightly increased your magical versatility; 1 of the mages could go with High Magic, the other could grab Fire, Heavens or even shadow. I find that High isn't necessarily the BEST magic; Vaul's unmaking is only useful so many times, and flames of the Phoenix often doesn't do very much. Oh how many times have I wished for a Good ol' Uranon's T.Bolt!

Korhil
17-07-2005, 10:39
1 thing

Not enough support units fix up that and it would be as perfect as an army list could

NarCiS
17-07-2005, 13:33
Thx for the comments.
The support unit problem is one I've given a lot of thought but i simply do not have the points.
The banner of balance is important because the only thing that can stop my Dragon Princes is a stubborn enemy unit. As it makes the enemy unit immune to psychology as well, these won't be a problem anymore.
As for the mages I like the Ld 9 Archmage more tbh, not that the Ld matters that much but I just hate breaking units. (I don't have a BSB either)

All in all, I could cut the Dragon Princes to 5 and add a unit of 10 swordmasters. 5 princes with a second sign commander can still mow down anything from the flanks.

Thoughts?

btw, I hate the Ring of Corin item, because as you said, It's only useful that many times, after that it becomes a liability.

Satfam
17-07-2005, 13:49
The banner of balance is important because the only thing that can stop my Dragon Princes is a stubborn enemy unit. As it makes the enemy unit immune to psychology as well, these won't be a problem anymore.


Do you face a lot of stubborn units? I considered taking the banner of balance in a tournament list until I realised that stubborn units aren't all that common (or at least as common as undead who will still be able to tar-pit you regardless) But sure if you play against people with a lot of stubborn units fair enough

NarCiS
17-07-2005, 15:59
Ever since I used the whole Cornerstone principle (then without the sweep of the princes) I won the last 2 tournaments in my gaming area (usually about 30 people playing) and I've credited the succes to my stubborn cut-off-force unit, which some of m y friends have started to copy. This is more of a counter to my own tactic then it is absolutely necessary.

Questions:
-Archmage or 2 mages?
-Drop Princes to 5 for 10 man swordmaster unit
-Balance or Sorcery banner

I'd love to get some more opinions

Lord Anathir
18-07-2005, 19:51
hmmm...i dont think you have enough support units. The reavers arent much in terms of flankers, archers are just useless (imo). The Dragon princes are going to be missile magnet. The least you can do is add sacred incense to the commander who is giong with them.

Although DP are good interms of *Elven* cavalry, I would never count on them breaking through anything semi touch. There are so many things that can stop you...high ldship, bait, bsb, general nearby, cannons, skirmisher screens, retreating flank tactic, high armour saves, rubber lance syndrome, undead summoning. All in all, its too much pressure on one unit to deal with even two units on its own, let alone "half the units".
the opponent can always sacrifice a smaller unit and have ur dp persue into a table corner or off the board or something.

If you like cavlary units smashing thruogh things, play an all cav list. Put a dragon beside ur dragon princes and ur DP wount even get touched by any type of missile.

Lord Anathir
18-07-2005, 19:57
Answering ur last couple of questions. Drop the DP to 6 and give them the banner of sorcery. Add another lvl 2 and drop both commanders.
Add a couple of chariots and 10-12 swordmasters.

The Lion gaurd commander aint gonna do much, any player worth his salt will direct attacks towards the commander. T3, 3+ AS? Horses can kill that guy. If you really want to keep a LG commander, you can wheel the unit so that they enemy hits the flank. Therefore, they cant declare attacks or challenge the commander. You survive one or two rounds or carnage, and then you charge in the flanks with ur cav and or SM.

feintstar
19-07-2005, 05:03
Whoa, Anathir, that's the Bizzarest tactic I've ever Heard! I don't know what to think...

It acts as a soupy swamp AND as an almost irresistable bait (providing you make it look like you don't have a choice... somehow... But then again, you won't be fighting in 3 ranks.. I Dunno, it sounds like a risky, dangerous and epensive but potentially lethal ploy.

Not sure where i stand...

Lord Kitchener
19-07-2005, 11:32
Hi NarCiS,
You could try dropping your DPís down to six; take out your reavers or archers, put in a unit of shadow warriors and a unit of silver helms. As mentioned before, your DPís will be a missile magnet, an expensive one at that. Keep them as cheap as poss, but put a banner on your silver helms and you'll have two good cavalry units. you might want to try put a level two mage on horseback, keep him within 4 inches of the DP's and use his ring of Fury to help clear a passage for your cavalry. It might be a good idea to drop the two units of SpearElves down to 16ís and put a unit of SworMasters with the Banner of sorcery between the two spear blocks.

These are only my ideas of course and I donít expect you to like them, at the end of the day Iíve written so many army lists and havenít even played them all.

Good luck with your Elves.
Martin K

NarCiS
19-07-2005, 12:23
Thx for all your tips everyone. And as for your ideas Arathnir, I would have to remake the whole list in order to incorporate all your ideas. The thing is I've had a lot of succes in tournaments so far with this list, so I'm a bit sceptical towards making such changes.

I know everyone says archers are useless, but I have found they are excellent flank protectors. Also The Reavers stay no matter what, their objective is to leap around the princes on the flank so they can threaten the enemies war machinse.
I would add Sacred Insense to the Commander but he needs the Radiant Gem of Hoeth for Second Sign Casting...

Lord Anathir
19-07-2005, 17:29
heck...if uve had success in tourneys keep the list as is by all means mate...dont listen to people like me ramble on....

but lmao...the look on ur opponents face is really worth it when you wheel ur spearmen backwards or sideways lmao! About the not fighting in three ranks, you can use hand weapons and shields, which is the most reasonable thing to do anyways when they are stubborn. If deployed in three ranks, it will be even better, as less opponents fight.

Pretty much, if say any thing bar chosen knights or something, will get stuck there for a LONG time. (just dont fail ur stubborn ldship test)

Lord Anathir
19-07-2005, 17:43
Ive once tried the cornerstone tactic with high elves...but really, the dwarves are masters at it.

Cornerstone is about deploying 2 infantry blocks that are stubborn supported by other elite infantry. Maybe a unit of White Lions with the general and a unit of spears with a lion gaurd commander. But i always get stuck at the same old problems. I@C, not knowing if ur mage, prince or lion gaurd commander is giong to be ur general. And also, the problem of protecting ur characters on foot.

However, if you want only one stubborn unit and you dont want to do the wheeling thingy, another idea is to get a unit of 20 spearmen deployed in 8x2 + 4i n the back rank. Put ur lion gaurd commander at the far corner (where the formation is only 2 deep). Place a great eagle right in front of the commander. When the unit charges ur spears, he wont be able to attack the commander because of the GE. also include a champ for challenges. Enemy wont charge eagle because the eagles will flee and the spears will counter charge. Unfortunately, it is a) expensive, b) eagle can get shot c) flanks are hard to protect (you could somewhat protect this by placing the unit on a table edge or something. d) it is a somewhat waste of an eagle....but you could have him fly aruond and just come back into his position before the charge.
*eagle can be replaced by a unit of fast cav any other unit for that (preferebly one that can flee without penalty)

But in the end, ive come to conclusion that is very very difficult to use stubborn blocks of infantry for high elves.....(but if they get rid of intrigue @ court.....hmmmm)

NarCiS
19-07-2005, 20:39
Thx for your input again :)
I might change it a little towards having support units of 12 swordmasters/white lions for more flexibility. I already have a champion in the unit for challanges.

The fight usually goes like this : Champion gets raped in challenge, 1,2,3 other elves die
usually only 2 troopers can attack the LG commander, he has not yet been killed first turn. The second turn the LG commander gets challenged and destroyed 50/50
Paying 350/400 points for a unit that can hold up the entire enemy battleline (this stubborn unit blocks any manouverability along with the reavers and eagles) is alright to me.

So the topics now :P :

- Swordmasters / White Lions / Phoenix Guard (also the sizes)
- More/Less Magic
- 2 Eagles or 1
- Archers, Yes or HELL NO?


btw, Intrigue at Court doesn't matter to me as all my heroes are Ld 9, and I haven't decided on White Lions yet. Also, why does the cornerstone require 2 stubborn units?

Lord Anathir
20-07-2005, 00:50
two conerstone units are usually better so that it doesnt matter which block your enemy attacks, they are still stubborn.

I suggest you add a unit of 12 swordmasters with a champion. Dont bother with the other ones...
8PD and 4DD is what uve got right now. Im not sure if you want more. It depends what kind of magic phase you want. however, imo, i think its fine, as you know that you shouldnt rely on magic for anything, as it is ultra unreliable.
2 eagles is a must!!! they are the best high elf unit....in a mixed list, it should be 2 RBT and 2 Eagles, in an all cav 3-4 eagles, in a defensive list 3-4 RBT
Drop the archers, you lack support units @ the moment, so you may as well get a real support unit. Drop them and add a unit of 12 swordmasters.
Drop the bows on the reavers...it doesnt say so, but you paid for them.

Your army is really small...so i think that you should drop some small things to get a few extra points. Drop one spearmen from each unit, the champion that is in the non stubborn unit, both musiciens, the musicen in the reavers, the musicien in the dragon princes and get a chariot.

However, i believe you are trying to do everything with this army. You have an archmage, a staple of a magic based army, you have a stubborn unit, the staple of a defensive army, and you have a big unit of cavalry, the staple of an offensive. I suggest you choose to play offensively or defensively. Offensively would mean all cav, defensively would mean making the DP a support and making the spears the centre of your army and having other units support it.

NarCiS
20-07-2005, 08:56
The Ellyrian bows have killed too many mages for me to drop them :). And I have to disagree, me trying to do everything is the definition of a take-all-comers tournament list. The swordmasters are a great idea. I would consider dropping the spearman musician and the 1 champion, NOT the Ellyrian musician tho. Im using them as bait a lot when I can't mage hunt easily. Not having them rally because of a measly 7 points seems wrong.

Thx for your input again :P this has changed into a 2 people debate
thats ok though :P. btw, 2 chariots would probably be a good addition for the support, but then i might finally have to swap the archmage out for a mage or make the DPs smaller.
Thoughts?

Lord Anathir
20-07-2005, 18:41
Its up to you i suppose. Everyone has their own way of playing. Some like to do everything. But I usually either go with Combat + Magic in all cav, and in mixed Heavy Magic + supporting shooting.

NarCiS
26-07-2005, 08:20
Btw Arathnir, concerning the wheeling the Cornerstone unit.
I've also read all of Ryo's tacticas so don't worry mate, i know.