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Nekharoth
26-01-2007, 17:17
Apologies in advance for this question, as I realise it would be covered by the 7th edition rulebook (of which I don't own a copy yet). Can someone confirm for me that the minimum number of models for a complete rank (ie. one that contributes to the unit's rank bonus) has been changed from 4 to 5? If so, I am going to be very unhappy with GW...

Griefbringer
26-01-2007, 17:27
Yes, in 7th edition you need to have 5 models in a rank to gain rank bonus (Bretonnian lance being the only known exception).

Avian
26-01-2007, 17:27
It is now 5 models, yes.

Nekharoth
26-01-2007, 17:36
thanks for clearing that up.

it seems a little ill-conceived given that it would cause little or no concern to most armies, yet massive disadvantages to the likes of chaos warriors and lesser daemons - of which i now need to buy more of to bring my army back up to scratch. i hope GW enjoy my money...

Avian
26-01-2007, 17:38
i hope GW enjoy my money...
That was probably a lot of the point. As you may have heard, GW has not been doing all that well and need to bring in cash somehow.

Mazdug
26-01-2007, 18:21
...yet massive disadvantages to the likes of chaos warriors and lesser daemons...

It may cause you financial woes, in game it actually gives you an advantage. Most elite units aren't going to be fielded 4 ranks deep due to the excessive cost, and rely on casualties for their combat resolution. with units now 5 models wide, you may now get more models into bases to base contact, which means your going to be making more of those high WS high Str attacks that rack up casualties, allowing you a greater chance to win those combats.

Avian
26-01-2007, 18:25
You could do that back in 6th edition anyway, and you would have kept your rank bonus for longer.

Keller
26-01-2007, 18:34
That was probably a lot of the point. As you may have heard, GW has not been doing all that well and need to bring in cash somehow.
Too bad with their ever-rising prices, they are driving more and more players from buying their models. I don't look forward to buying anything new anymore.

EvC
26-01-2007, 18:38
It's especially annoying for Cavalry. I could just about justify a unit of 7 or 8Black Knights led by a character, but now I either drop half the unit or somehow find a way to bump the unit up to get a full rank bonus. Grrr...

Atrahasis
26-01-2007, 18:42
If you were fielding cavalry 4 wide then the changes have done you a favour.

EvC
26-01-2007, 19:15
I was usually fielding cavalry with 5 in the front rank and four in the back rank (five if I put a second character in the unit, as I often did). So they could afford to take a casualty that way, but now, one wound and half the unit is useless (Unless I reform to go 9 wide!).

Palatine Katinka
26-01-2007, 21:24
I had most of my units 5 or 6 wide in the previous edition. Most people I know did. A few went for the minimum width but found their units getting mauled by people with two extra models and the same starting ranks. With cavalry, I've recently not bothered with ranks. It probably isn't points effective and probably wasn't before. For the cost of 4 extra Cold One Knights I can upgrade a Noble to a Battle Standard Bearer with the Hydra Banner. Extra combat res. for the Standard and extra damage from its effect is probably better. I know not ever one has this option, but instead of taking a second rank how about a second unit and charge into the flank?

Nekharoth
27-01-2007, 14:08
It may cause you financial woes, in game it actually gives you an advantage. Most elite units aren't going to be fielded 4 ranks deep due to the excessive cost, and rely on casualties for their combat resolution. with units now 5 models wide, you may now get more models into bases to base contact, which means your going to be making more of those high WS high Str attacks that rack up casualties, allowing you a greater chance to win those combats.

that's good point, though i did actually realise that. in fact, for these units (as the chaos warriors have MoN) having a few extra models will also make Fear more effective.

i just don't like being forced to shuffle around my army and buy new troops because of such a flippant and essentially pointless change of rules. rule books should be written by games developers, not accountants.

actually i don't think it affects cavalry too badly... generally speaking it's too expensive (in terms of points that is ;) ) to buy a rank of cavalry just to get the +1 rank bonus regardless of whether it's 4 or 5 models. cavalry is supposed to charge and win combat on wounds. if you're relying on ranks to help you win combat, then you're probably not using them properly.

Crazy Harborc
28-01-2007, 02:32
I had switched over to 5 (or more) across long before 6th was out the window. I needed more bodies up front to jump into HtH.;) Most opponents did the same.

At the same time.....IMHO, it was/is a bit...well, arrogant of GW to increase those minimums. Take it and do it or else....sucks attitude wise.

Belerophon709
14-02-2007, 17:26
A related question: Do Bretonnians need to field knights in ranks of 4 now to do a lance formation? Or is it still 3?

Festus
14-02-2007, 17:39
see the other thread you just started...

NakedFisherman
14-02-2007, 18:29
I was usually fielding cavalry with 5 in the front rank and four in the back rank (five if I put a second character in the unit, as I often did). So they could afford to take a casualty that way, but now, one wound and half the unit is useless (Unless I reform to go 9 wide!).

Half your unit was always useless -- you had half the points of a unit scratching their arses doing nothing in the back ranks.

TheWarSmith
14-02-2007, 18:33
Bretonnians still function in lance formation with 3 wide, not 4 or 5.

EvC
14-02-2007, 18:39
Half your unit was always useless -- you had half the points of a unit scratching their arses doing nothing in the back ranks.

...until the front rank died, then they did stuff. Until then they provided +1CR for a rank bonus, plus contributed to the unit size to make me more likely to outnumber and auto-break my opponents :)

Belerophon709
14-02-2007, 19:15
see the other thread you just started...

Sorry :cries:

NakedFisherman
14-02-2007, 19:40
...until the front rank died, then they did stuff. Until then they provided +1CR for a rank bonus, plus contributed to the unit size to make me more likely to outnumber and auto-break my opponents :)

And you think it was worth 125ish points?

Personally I'd rather have another unit of cavalry and/or the War Banner.

EvC
15-02-2007, 00:03
Well in one game I'm thinking of, if my opponent hadn't "mistakenly" told me his Slann caused fear, then the extra models would have made me autobreak the massive points sink in questions and earnt me enough points for the Black Knights to do not a thing for the next 5 games.

Yellow Commissar
15-02-2007, 00:31
So, taking extra ranks on heavy cavalry is only worth it when your opponent is cheating? :rolleyes: :)

Bloodknight
15-02-2007, 02:34
Normally Black Knights are good with rank bonus. In tournaments you saw blocks of 12 for high US quite often in last edition. Iīd take 10 now.

As for the whole rank bonus question: I didnīt feel a real impact on my armies as I played my blocks either 5 or 6 wide. The only unit I had to get additional models for was my TK skeleton heavy cavalry block which went from 12 to 15 models.

T10
15-02-2007, 07:00
The change in rank width has resulted in a slight shift in unit sizes around here. The 4x4 block was never very popular, 5-wide tended to be the norm even then.

The thing with the 4-wide ranks was that it meant that virtually *all* units were better fielded as small 4x4 blocks since this allowed for either affordable units of durable troops (Chaos Warriors, Iron Breakers, Grave Guard) or really cheap units of expendable troops (Orcs, Free Company). With the change to 5-wide ranks the expensive models are more appropriately fielded in wider units (6-7) with few ranks (2-3) and the cheaper models in larger units (20+).

-T10

Bloodknight
15-02-2007, 10:31
Thatīs what we did in 6th, too, as most of the elite units like Chaos warriors work better MSU style.

EvC
15-02-2007, 10:32
So, taking extra ranks on heavy cavalry is only worth it when your opponent is cheating? :rolleyes: :)

You fail at reading comprehension :P

If my opponent HADN'T cheated, then the unit would have been automatically broken, and his massive unit (With General and standard) would have fled, giving me about 800 points. But since he did, I lost out.