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Voltaire
26-01-2007, 21:55
When Ogres Kingdoms was released, there was a very one sided reaction to the manner in which it had been introduced. People scowled at the Ogre Kingdoms and the manner in which they received a large push. This was to be expected, of course, as a lot of people seemed to think the Ogre Kingdoms were an un-necessary evil. The Ogre Kingdoms almost seemed to frighten people with how they were going somewhere that Warhammer had never been before;

The Ogre Kingdoms went out of the Old World.

Now, as we know, there are places beyond the Old World and Naggaroth/Lustria. This in not in dispute but what we know of these areas is. The Ogre Kingdoms made the transition to bringing us closer to the mass we know as Grand Cathay. Why then, did people seem to overreact to the Ogre Kingdoms when they appeared. While there seemed to be a feeling that the Ogres were an unseen quarter, why did we not approach them with an open mind?

The argument about the background information of the Ogre Kingdoms being invali was piffle because it was very well constructed when compared to some of the inconsistencies of the current armies. The battle between the Ogres and the Giant sky titans was inspired and the general lack of treading on toes was very impressive, in my opinion. What could have been a regal disaster turned into nothing more than an excuse to complain about trying to push what is a very big project, when put into the context of hat it actually was - introducing something new into a limited world.

The Ogres entered the testing water, and they came out scolded by the general populace. What would we be like if we suddenly had Tilea, Araby or even Grand Cathay? Would we simply shun them as we did the Ogres? The water is hot simply because the people are hot about not having the perfection from their own armies that they expect, despite balance being one of the permenant issues of Warhammer.

What do you think?

kyussinchains
26-01-2007, 22:39
I totally agree, the ogres opened doors all round and act as a handy bridge to the rest of the warhammer world. They're also a fair and balanced army with plenty of character and lots of excellent models.

they did a better job with the ogre book than most of the others.

having said that, I am an ogre player so my opinions are a bit biased

bluesky322
26-01-2007, 22:43
im not an ogre player and i love them because sure there strong but i generaly can handle them because they are so well balanced

Hywel
26-01-2007, 23:02
Intriguing suggestion that gamers have spurned their chance to make brand new armies a positive experience for GW.

Perhaps its just an indicator that only a vocal minority really feel the pull of certain 'undiscovered' armies.

swordwind
26-01-2007, 23:23
Most of the harsh feelings towards the ogres was because it pushed back the Wood Elves. It was the equivalent of saying to the WE players "We know your armybook hasnt been updated in 15 years but just wait while we create a whole new race instead"

blahblahblah
26-01-2007, 23:40
I don't think araby, cathay or Tilea would get a much warmer welcome from some people who seem to not want another human army. Personally I'd love to se a Cathay or Nippon army (maybe because I'm living in Asia right now...) since I don't think armies have to be made up of monsters (good or bad) to be fantasy. there's quite a few mythical or fantasy aspects that could be add to any of the above armies to have them fit in with the current armies. But no matter what a person says, there'll always be someone who disagrees with it, even if it does add more variety to this game we love :)

Petey
26-01-2007, 23:49
I agree with swordwind. Many of us wanted new content, but not at the expense of established gamers. Sure, OK was great, in fluff, but why did they come before WE.
And while the fluff is good, why are they so bad an army? I have an OK army and the tactics are very divergent from how the book implies they should be used. Many Small Units, try large units and you re doomed. And why Must we be stuck with gnoblars. Yes they're very good, but they seem almost required.
Perhaps i just haven't found the killer strategy to using them yet, but i don't feel they were well playtested, unlike wood elves who have alot going for them, are characterful and yet, not cheesy and broken (IMO)
So yeah, I hated the idea of ogres, but i loved them after i read their fluff, then i hated them after playing them a few times, now i m just trying to make them work.
I m glad they re in WHFB i just think they need to get their heads out of their collective rear ends and fix the leaking roof rather than add an addition to the house (ie wood elves needed to come before ogre).

Angelwing
27-01-2007, 02:00
i like the fresh, new idea that was ogre kingdoms. it does indeed open the door to other new armies and should be welcomed as a new challenge. i see why wood elf players were cheesed off. they waited until last in 4th ed, seen two dwarf books for their one for 6th/7th ed

sulla
27-01-2007, 03:13
I agree with swordwind. Many of us wanted new content, but not at the expense of established gamers. Sure, OK was great, in fluff, but why did they come before WE.
And while the fluff is good, why are they so bad an army? I have an OK army and the tactics are very divergent from how the book implies they should be used. Many Small Units, try large units and you re doomed. And why Must we be stuck with gnoblars. Yes they're very good, but they seem almost required.


Wouldn't bulls work quite well in big units with a character? Say 9 plus the great weapon wielding hero? Should autobreak most units.

As for gnoblars, I'm not quite sure what you're saying...Do you mean the fluff requires them or gameplay requires them?

chivalrous
27-01-2007, 03:38
A lot of the reaction against the Ogre Kingdoms (that, I must add, I paid any attention to) fell into two camps.

The first being all the Wood Elf, Dogs of War and Chaos Dwarf players who basically felt that Games Workshop had shown them the finger as if the very real demand of these players (and long term platers at that) meant less to the company than some sudden flash in the pan idea.
In truth, there was no demand for Ogre Kingdoms before a sudden rumor appeared on the horizon, and even then it was met with derision and dismay.

The second camp were those that felt the Ogre Kingdoms had been shoehorned into the warhammer background, with little or no reference having been made to them in previous editions of the game.
That if Games workshop wanted to expand their world to the east, there was Cathay and Nippon to look at, with a wealth of background material from early editions, not to mention Warhammer RPG. If The company didn't want to make the full journey east then there were still the Hobgoblin civilations of the steppes and the Chaos Dwarfs to use.
Ogre Kingdoms just seem to have been picked right out of thin air.

jdebelly
27-01-2007, 03:46
Most of the harsh feelings towards the ogres was because it pushed back the Wood Elves. It was the equivalent of saying to the WE players "We know your armybook hasnt beem updated in 15 years but just wait while we creaet a whole new race instead"

Not just the WE (I'm a WE player) - but what about the Chaos Dwarves - who are STILL using Ravening Hordes that was published BEFORE 6th ed.

And the problems with the HE list. They even corrected a mistake with the DE by balancing the points.

I do agree that OK are a balanced list. I also understand the need to just go forward with a good idea. But... can we at least have an updated FAQ within two months of an armies release?

Yellow Commissar
27-01-2007, 04:49
Not just the WE (I'm a WE player) - but what about the Chaos Dwarves - who are STILL using Ravening Hordes that was published BEFORE 6th ed.


What about us Chaos Dwarfs? I'm quite happy with my Ravening Hordes list. I don't want a new AB. I dread the day that I have to play my beloved army as rewritten by some kook GW hires. I have no faith that GW will get it right. Of all the RH lists, CD were one of the best. All I ask for is to keep my RH list.

As for the whining about OK, who cares? You are just hearing the squeeky wheels, so to speak. The vast majority of WHFB players don't bother whining online. GW had an opportunity to make some money, and did so. What does anyone expect them to do?

Xavier
27-01-2007, 05:03
Personally the only reason I feel Ogre's were met with such disdain was in many people's eyes a lot of other armies really needed an army book, that were established armies with work in progress lists (wood elves primarily)

Thus when a brand new army is released, which clearly would have required alot of effort and resources, it angered people, who had been waiting some 4 or 5 years for a wood elf army book. I personally like ogres, I like what has been done with their background and the expansion of the warhammer world, thus I would love Tilea, Araby, Nippon or Cathay to be done, but not at the expense of another army, in this current climate, chaos dwarfs.

Personally I feel all lists in ravening hordes should have been made an actual army list in an army book, before any new cool things were tackled. (A similar situation with tau actually)

I feel however that were one of the four area I mentioned to be done as an army they would be more well recieved than ogres, simply because they are already established in the background where ogres really were an unknown.

Reflex
27-01-2007, 05:58
Xavier summed it up... it wasent that they were ogres and there fluff and what not.. people wanted the exsisting army books done before a new race...

see i recon thats what they are doing for 40k right now.. doing the codex books, then a new race will be released.. (dont say it wont happen!!!)

Griefbringer
27-01-2007, 08:57
I also think that the big problem with OK was that they appeared pretty much out of nowhere, while there were a lot of already known (background wise) places in the Warhammer world that could have been expanded into an army book instead.

Another issue that made people react negatively to them before release was that they presumed it to be designed to attract kids, being an army of mostly big guys.

WLBjork
27-01-2007, 09:16
Sure, GW could have done CD instead of OK - however, the question is would it have been as good?

That's not so much to say that I think OK is good, but that the CD army could have been worse than the OKs.

Jam tommorow and all that sort of theing ;)

Corrupt
27-01-2007, 12:32
And the problems with the HE list. They even corrected a mistake with the DE by balancing the points.


Dark Elf Warriors Dropped to 7pts. Meaning their troops are now 4Pts cheaper than High Elf. You have no idea how hard it is to play against DE without resorting to Cav heavy. For a min sized unit of Spearmen (10) each the Dark Elves save 40pts for a statistically identical model! So really it works out at 10 High Elves (110pts) vs 15 Dark Elves. Thats balanced...
Yes the High Elves get their 3 Ranks rule..and thats cool, but its not works 4 points a model! Esp given in situations like that^ it's useless.

Thats my problem. If the DE get a point balance errata, why dont other armies? Why do lothern sea guard, if you keep shields, Cost 16 Points. I've paid 5 points for a regular bow! How expensive is that??

kyussinchains
27-01-2007, 12:43
Yes the High Elves get their 3 Ranks rule..and thats cool, but its not works 4 points a model! Esp given in situations like that^ it's useless.

it's far from useless, it means that the high elf spearmen are FAR more powerful both offensively and defensively, they get twice as many attacks on charge, and 50% more when charged, if you have a frontage of 6-7 models, that's 12/14 on charge, and 18/21 when charged, a very high amount.

basically the high elf book is very fluffy, they are an elite army who tend to die in droves (the reason they're dying out) they have exceptionally powerful magic, a huge list of great magic items, and heavy cavalry as a core unit, true, you wont make any friends playing an all-cavalry seer-council army, but the army isnt weak, just because it cannot compete on all levels with all armies, doesnt make it broken, it just has its strengths in areas which arent fun to face.

Corrupt
27-01-2007, 13:06
it's far from useless, it means that the high elf spearmen are FAR more powerful both offensively and defensively, they get twice as many attacks on charge, and 50% more when charged, if you have a frontage of 6-7 models, that's 12/14 on charge, and 18/21 when charged, a very high amount.

basically the high elf book is very fluffy, they are an elite army who tend to die in droves (the reason they're dying out) they have exceptionally powerful magic, a huge list of great magic items, and heavy cavalry as a core unit, true, you wont make any friends playing an all-cavalry seer-council army, but the army isnt weak, just because it cannot compete on all levels with all armies, doesnt make it broken, it just has its strengths in areas which arent fun to face.

So your argument is Fluff says these guys are dying in droves (where is that anyways?) so we'l stat them so they suck and overprice them to keep that right?

I said it was useless there^. You overrate it anyways.
Lets go with the situation above. Forgetting the DE hate us to keep this fairer.
We'l up the unit size so I can use my extra rank too.
So Suppose I have 20 Spearevles, no command (as I dont know the cost of the DarkElf 1 and wish it to be a fair test, but both would probably have a full command) Thats 220pts.

Now those 20 Elves would face 31 Druchi!. Meaning he could match my 20 for 20 and have another 11 to flank me in a seperate unit entirely. WHich is what happens whenever HE face DE. We are way outnumbered by models on par with us!

Suppose he goes with 1 Block...Il deploy 5x4. So my static CR is 3. Theirs is 4AND they have a wider frontage and extra ranks to soak up casualties becuase he goes for 4x7+3 at the back to take hits.
Assuming average rolls If i charge I get 0.83 Dead Dark Elves on average (10 attacks-2 ranks). They strike back (assume we got 1 kill there so they only have 13 attacks back) They hit back for 1.08 dead High Elves. OMG They win by 1. They outnumber me, they have wider frontage. Things dont loom pretty for the High Elves do they? Next turn who goes first is random (equal init) and they have 14 Attacks to my 15 and still outnumber me. I'v lost a rank too! So I'm down two at the start of round two if I didnt break already

If he charges I lose 0.6 elves and kill (assuming they get 1 kill) 1.16. Still not massive is it? So its 1 Kill each, they outnumber WOW i lost by 1 again and the situation is the same as above. This is all assuming he doesnt deploy 21 is his main block and flank me with the other ten meaning I lose by an extra 3 at least!

Im aware stuff like this isn't the way it always happens and tatics come into it, but it proves my point about High Elf Infantry. Yes they have nice stats etc, but the models cant live up to them becuase of the points. So not only are the Dark Elves as good as us, they also out number us by about 1/3.Remember I pay 12 points for an Archer with no armour and a longbow. Or 16 for spearmen with a regular bow! High elves are flawed as an expensive and flimsy army in a game that stresses toughness and numbers...

And before you say I do play HE Infantry, and I love them, I like the challange, but they should at least be fairly balanced.

Nekharoth
27-01-2007, 14:50
I also think that the big problem with OK was that they appeared pretty much out of nowhere, while there were a lot of already known (background wise) places in the Warhammer world that could have been expanded into an army book instead.

Another issue that made people react negatively to them before release was that they presumed it to be designed to attract kids, being an army of mostly big guys.

i agree with both of those points. i remember thinking much the same when OK was released. it definitely seems very much 'for the kids', and i think the same is true of Tau - those battle suits seem intended purely to lure fans of all that anime-ish sci-fi stuff into the hobby.

the other thing that annoys me is that there seems to be less and less of a methodical process to releasing and revising armies. i think it reflects more on the corporate side of GW than the actual games developers themselves - but it gives the impression of GW as having the attention span of a six year old - totally unable to remain focussed on an army for long enough to actually finish it or release miniatures for all the units, before they rush off into their next 'great' idea. there really shouldn't be armies (like Chaos for instance...) that end up getting a seemingly half-finished armies book, or others that never get their units realised in miniatures.

enyoss
27-01-2007, 15:33
So your argument is Fluff says these guys are dying in droves (where is that anyways?) so we'l stat them so they suck and overprice them to keep that right?

< snip >

And before you say I do play HE Infantry, and I love them, I like the challange, but they should at least be fairly balanced.

Woa, what a hijack! To be honest, if I never see the debate about bloody HE Spearmen again it would be too soon, but if you must post this stuff, can you do it in one of the dozens of other threads on the topic?

As for the original post, I agree with the view that Ogres were despised mainly due to their elevation above existing army releases. I wasn't too bothered myself (and I was waiting for Wood Elves), but I can see why people would get frustrated.

The army itself is one of the most balanced in the game though, and I think this approach has been adopted in many of the subsequent books.

Myself, I'd rather GW didn't expand much further on the lands of Cathay and Ind etc. I quite enjoy the element of having unknown lands shrouded in mystery and speculation... it's a feeling we'll never have on this planet again, and makes the Warhammer World more than a simple translation of our world and cultures onto theirs.

Cheers,

enyoss

Paulus
27-01-2007, 16:15
I thought Ogre's were fantastic from the moment I saw them, personally I love too see fresh new ideas rather than constant re-works of existing armies.

I do though agree that GW should of perhaps held Ogre Kingdoms back until after Wood Elves as Wood Elf players had been very patient & to see a new army appear before there army was a little harsh.

If new armies were to be introduced this edition I would have know issue with any coming along after High Elves (who are in dire need of a new book), other armies with maybe the exception of Dark Elves aren't in desperate need of a new book.

Vampire Counts we know are due after High Elves, but even if something were to be slotted in before them I would not have a problem with it as they are in desperate need of new models rather than new rules, the models for the most part are done & they could be released prior to a new book.

That was just an example anyway as Vampire Count's mini's & book are after High Elves.

Long story short - Ogre Kingdoms are great but should've come after Wood Elves. Any new races are welcome & fair game once the Vampire Count's are re-worked.

Corrupt
27-01-2007, 16:22
Woa, what a hijack! To be honest, if I never see the debate about bloody HE Spearmen again it would be too soon, but if you must post this stuff, can you do it in one of the dozens of other threads on the topic?

As for the original post, I agree with the view that Ogres were despised mainly due to their elevation above existing army releases. I wasn't too bothered myself (and I was waiting for Wood Elves), but I can see why people would get frustrated.


I am sorry about that. It's just someone made a referece to how DE got an upgrade and other armies didnt, hence the negative reaction to ogres becuase other armies needed fixes/new book entirely first. Which I agreed with. I went a touch off topic, but it was just i was a touch annoyed by "OMG 3 ranks with spears is teh pwnage!!! High Elves dont need a fix!!!!!"

But yeah that was why I disliked them. They forced back wood elves, my other major fantasy army and kinda came out of nowhere, when the developers could have done something much more worthwhile. I agree about the repeating old stuff is lame point, but I also think the things needing a fix currently should be sorted out (like the wood elves were) before they release something new entirely.

Btw I would still like to see the "Elves die in droves despite being elite" fluff that means they are handicapped in game to stay true to the text. Surely the whole highly skilled warrios, amazing crafmanship of armour and weapons etc thing means they are harder to kill? But I digress so if you do reply make it by PM.

Bubble Ghost
27-01-2007, 16:39
It's worth bearing in mind here that a few people vocally moaning on web forums does not mean Ogre Kingdoms was unpopular.

Reabe
27-01-2007, 17:19
There are several reasons to why there are people who don't like Ogre Kingdoms and some people who do like them. Why they'd like them, I don't know.

1: Bad background. Very little interaction with the other races makes them very "horse-shoed on". Where-as Dark Elves and High Elves have their wonderful story on their conflict, Dwarves and Man's alliance, etc, Ogre Kingdoms has bugger all. They've been suddenly dumped in the mountains, and they only upset background.

2: Bad models. Ogres are meant to be creatures prone to charging and runing, despite their bulk, but very few models look like they're going beyond walking speed.

3: They're made for kiddies. Most of their background is "Oh, look how awesome we are!". Take the Brettonian Background, for example. Their peasants are inbred, Knights corrupted and their god is in fact an elf. Even the High Elves are shown to have weaknesses, but Ogres are just shown their strengths. They get hit by a comet: They survive. They get attacked by Orcs and Goblins: They survive. If this was any other race, they'd be devastated by each catastrophe and would take hundreds of years to repair, but not Ogres. Ogres are alright and healed neatly in time for their next release of models and crap.
They entire background is basically "Heh, kiddies, get your Mum to empty her purse to buy these Ogres 'cause they're teh roxxors!"

If Tilea, Cathay or any other such army were to be released, they'd be much more accepted than Ogre Kingdoms.

Paulus
27-01-2007, 17:34
lol! Warseer wouldn't be the same without Reabe's Ogre bashing, I'm just suprised it's taken this long! ;)

Runt Nosher
27-01-2007, 17:59
:wtf: I remember when OK came out on these forums and I first heard about the rumours. To be honest I started this game in 4th with High Elves. When 6th came out I figured I'd play Empire until the new HE stuff was released. By the time the HE came out I was supremely bored with my far too efficient Empire army, and then months after that I found how broken the HE list really was against many of my main opponents (lizzies, dark elves, chaos). I mean there were times when my buddies Chaos Warrior army had more miniatures in it than my High Elf lists... that's just wrong.

When the new OK were rumoured I kinda got stoked about it. I think one other reason why people were so pissed off is that a lot of the stuff the Ogres were rumoured to have sounded really powerful. I remember as they were released the Bull Charge rule was being mass whined about because it sounded too effective...

I got an Ogre Army Deal the day of its release and have enjoyed the army immensely over the last couple years. I like the balance in it, there are a lot of units that can be seen as preferable to others but all the units do have a use in specific army builds. I also thought a few of the miniatures were awesome. I don't think the OK were a bad idea at all, I did agree with all the Wood Elf players who wanted their book first, but I didn't think the Chaos Dwarf argument had any right seeing as how they've been told on numerous occasions that their book wasn't even close to the drawing boards.

I think that they might have been able to come out with something other than Ogres that could have been at least equally exciting, if not more. I really like the idea of an all Ogre army though because it seems like a really 'Fantastic' idea, which I find a lot of WAAC armies in the competitive scenes are lacking. Not just that but I also see in 7th edition they have made a few more concessions to make MSU a little more effective, being able to march block skirmishers, no lapping round, the minimum 5 model rank, I think are all things that give an MSU army a little more edge and I think also with these new rules the Ogres were designed with MSU in mind...

Anyway a lot of random ramblings basically I like the Ogres and think they were a good move, but they just as easily could've done something else instead.... but they didn't so now we must all live with their decisions :wtf:

Nekharoth
27-01-2007, 21:08
other armies with maybe the exception of Dark Elves aren't in desperate need of a new book.

admittedly i am probably seeing this from a somewhat selfish point of view - being a Chaos player - but Hordes of Chaos are in desperate need of a new book, perhaps even more so than dark elves (which btw, i also play, so i'm not being *that* one sided...). the HoC army list looks like it wasn't even finished, let alone playtested before they went to press. and to add insult to injury, the additional lists in Storm of Chaos (while they are individually ok) only serve to confuse the matter further.


If Tilea, Cathay or any other such army were to be released, they'd be much more accepted than Ogre Kingdoms.

i think that's part of the whole point too, Tilea and Cathay were already intrinsically interwoven in the background of the Warhammer World and at least for older players would have been a far more welcome addition. however, as they are essesntially just more human realms, they certainly wouldn't have had the 'wow' factor that Ogre Kingdoms did, at least in terms of enticing new players to the game (unless, of course they released a Cathay army list full of ninjaz).

but that said, i don't actually have anything against them as an army. they seem well balanced and provide an interesting and different kind of opponent to fight against. and besides, the models (minus the legs) make great dragon ogres. :D

Crazy Harborc
28-01-2007, 01:38
IMHO, at the time of their release, the OK goodies received extra promoing because GW knew a new WHFN army of of larger more expensive per item minies might not catch on, not generate those first few days/week/months worth of fresh/new money in the till.

Sorry to say, the hipe was wasted on me. I like bigger (in numbers of troops) units/armies.

gORCUS
28-01-2007, 02:19
So an army made up of 10' tall bloodthirsty cannibals is geared towards the kiddies?:wtf: And haven't ogres been around in one form or another since the very beginning of the game? I think if GW had any motives with the OK, it was to create an army whose units are useable by every other army, hence more sales beyond just those who want to start a whole army, and the backround supports this. They are also great for those of us who really enjoy converting and painting models, as their size and the fact that most of them are plastic lends itself well to modeling. And it is also nice to be able to paint a full 2000 point army to a reasonable tabletop standard in a coupla monthes, rather than years. Once again, I'm an avid OK player though, so my opinion is biased.;)

505
28-01-2007, 03:56
to echo the main people upset were those waiting for WE.

however I also think that (as stated) they were just dropped in. which is fine throwing in another army (I like new things to challenge me) but there was already peopl ewanting nippon, and/or cathy armies (ones already established in the background). And I for one would like something already "known" to come out...mabey mention ogre kingdoms in those books and lead to the Ogres.

but thats only my 2 cents

Xavier
28-01-2007, 04:18
As I have said, I like ogres and feel that they do have a place in the game, they fit in well with the Cathayn background (what little we know of it... which is actually from the OK book...) So they do have their place, they were all off in the east while the main background covered to date is all dominated by the 'west' and old world. So when Cathay and Nippon are done, (if) I dare say Ogres will find their place in the grand scheme of things.

I also agree with the whole, "their a kid's army" cause lets face it, when you first started would you not have loved a small army, that is 'hard as nails' (hey look, marines.) I for one would have jumped at the chance (ah to be young and stupid.)


I think if GW had any motives with the OK, it was to create an army whose units are useable by every other army...

Then why on earth did they not do Tilea or Estallia (Dogs of War) and not some random never before seen race. Personally I would have liked Dogs of War, who honestly have never had an army book as such, but are very well established, even if that was at the expense of delaying wood elves.

This is really all conjecture at this point, the question put forward was, would other new armies be met with the flak storm ogres were. My answer is a definitive 'NO' In the current climate, any army (within reason) that could be released would have been touched on in the background, would be well met since no one is lacking an army book (with the exception of CD's, but as has been said no one knows what to do with them.)

gORCUS
28-01-2007, 05:12
I also agree with the whole, "their a kid's army" cause lets face it, when you first started would you not have loved a small army, that is 'hard as nails' (hey look, marines.) I for one would have jumped at the chance (ah to be young and stupid.)



Then why on earth did they not do Tilea or Estallia (Dogs of War) and not some random never before seen race.

Hard as nails? Must have never played them, though a small army with few models is appealing, to a 30 year old with limited hobby time during the bulk of the year.

Tilea/ Estalia... oh boy more late medival, early rennaisance european themed humans.

I think they saw a chance to add something fresh to the mix, that's more in line with the feel of the old world than a cathayan or nipponese army would be, and more different and exciting than another human army. I don't think they should go further east than OK, CD and the hobgoblins. And besides, is the internet communitie's reaction to something truly representative? It seems to me that those with negative views are way more vocal online than those with positive views. Look at the new empire, how many threads have we seen bashing various aspects of the army, when it seems the general consensus is that they're pretty well done.

For me, anything new is a good thing and IMO anything released in the future will be hit just as hard by online criticism because it will not live up to everyone's expectations, especially something like a far eastern themed army that is so heavily burdened by preconceived notions of what they should be. That was the beauty of the OK, that there was a clean slate to develop them from, no one could say "thats wrong, this is what an ogre should be". Now if a nipponese army is released and they don't have samurai with killing blow, or ninjas aren't a character option, I think the **** will hit the fan, and possibly worse than for the OK.

But that's just my .02$.

zak
28-01-2007, 11:19
I totally agree. I welcomed ogres with open arms when they were released. GW were trying something different, rather than releasing another boring human army. We already have far too many of those and I for one can wait a bit longer for the next one to be released.
I can see why WE players were whining and moaning, but that's hardly the fault of the actual army, which has only added to the game rather detracted from it. Some of the ogre models are not great, but it was a first attempt and I see far better for OK in the future.

Dr Death
28-01-2007, 13:56
For me they did feel decidedly shoe-horned taking a previously quite rare and limited race and suddenly bringing them in as the big 'power of the east'. I also highly dislike the notion of an army of monsters which strikes me as a bit of a 'novelty' army, one that deliberately refuses to conform to the basic formula of armies. For me it's the equivilent of 'kroxigor kingdoms' or 'treekin kingdoms' which probably dont sound nearly as rediculous after ogre kingdoms but it messes with the way the game was designed.

As far as the reception of other races might have gone i think i dont agree with the 'fear of the new' hypothesis that voltaire has put foward because i think there is more to my own and others dislike for the army than simply the fact they were new. Nor does the fact they usurped wood elves really bother me, not being a wood elf player myself (though even i acknowledge that they deserved to be released before any new race was added). The simple concept of taking a race that had no aptitude or need to assemble into great armies is what narks me, and that's the thing that any number of alternatives (such as those cited) have over Ogre Kingdoms.

Dr Death

Paulus
28-01-2007, 14:12
I thought it made sense, Ogre's had to come from somewhere, it made less sense that they were just randomly scattered across the world hiring there services.

Now this mercenary type race has it's own lands & only stands to reason that like most other races they would amass armies.

I fully appreciate where people are coming from withe 'shoe horned in' statements, but to be honest I think we would get that feeling from any new race & I include Cathay/Araby in that statement as relatively little is known of them therefore new background inc previously unknown interactions with existing races would have to be created.

KingTut
28-01-2007, 14:49
I like the stealth suits models.....
I dunno personally i love seeing new armies coming out becuase it opens up so many more doors. And what i hear about OK is that they are quite balanced which is very good becuase they had great potential for becomeing a big problem in terms of balance.

Stouty
28-01-2007, 15:06
I really liked ogre kingdoms but I did feel that they were just a little bit underdeveloped in terms of the theme of the army. I'll try to explain.

Most armies have enough varied core and special choices that represent all the individual themes of army/race. When you put it all together it has a distinct feel and the gamer also has the choice to focus on 1 or 2 of the themes themselves to get a more specialised army (in terms of backround).

A good example of this is skaven. One of the skaven themes is the plagued rat and harbinger of disease (Clan pestilens, my favourite :D). For your heroes you can have plague monks, for your troops you can have plague rats, special choices could be filled with plague monks and the rare slots with censer bearers. Without any great difficulty you could create an army focusing around the one theme that interests you most. You can pull your favourite thread from the tapestry.

Now in the ogre kingdoms backround they mentioned a lot of themes. There was the tribal savages, the stone age hunter, the mercenary, the beasts from the wild, the religious cult, the trader (or scrapper) and then there's the comedy of the gnoblars.

Now how much of that was in the book? Very little. There was only one theme which you can build the army around, the tribal savage. There is one hero choice for the stone age hunter (and not a great one at that)+gnoblar trappers, there is 1 rare choice for the mercenary, butchers are the only featured part of the religious cult, 1 special choice for scrappers...I could go on but you get my point.

I think this'll get my point across far better. Other than a gimmick list, using the basic unit types already given could you make a SoC style varient list?

Sorry for the rant but that was the only thing I didn't like about OK (I mean come on, 3 special choices, and one of them was yhetees).

When they redo the book I hope they'll make it more varied. (core choices: ogres, ogres with heavy armour and great weapons...they might as well just have been option for the same unit)

Finaly (and I mean it this time): If you think ogres are a kiddies army you must be playing the miniaturized chess champions. You try winning your games without any static CR besides banners.

gORCUS
28-01-2007, 15:38
I agree with your assesment, Stouty. That's why you see very little variation in winning OK lists, or any OK lists for that matter. And as if the choices weren't limited all ready, you must have a tyrant or bruiser general, and with the cost of OK characters and units, that is a big limiting factor in army selection. In fact one of the only ways to really change the feel of the army is to take Skrag, but we all know how most people feel about SC's, and he costs 100 points more than a fully equiped tyrant. In fact, they add more dimension to everyone else's list (excepting brettonians) than they have in their own with there DoW rule. But I still really enjoy them, the models and the fluff, and I have a lot of respect for those with the skill to consistently win games with them.

sandinista
28-01-2007, 16:16
To get back to the main point of this thread for one sec, sorry, how ever much flak people gave GW about the OK, doesn't mean anything in terms of the army's success. The bottom line is, do they sell? If OK are still consistantly selling well, then GW may think its feasible to do another 'new' army. If OK didn't and doesn't sell, then thats the factor holding other books back. A bunch of veteran games complaining online doesn't matter if twelve year olds are willing to drop bank on the new product. Sounds cynical but its true. I like the OK, models, fluff, etc., but at the end of the day, saying so a hundred times on warseer means less than going out and buying a single box of Bulls. And thats not a rant about GW being a corporate monster, I know and accept they need money to keep growing and giving me what I want, but its just a bitter truth. Money talks...

gORCUS
28-01-2007, 17:43
Hence an army of easily converted DoW monstrous infantry that add a new dimension to your army list, as opposed to more humans, DoW or not, that are just more variations of the same theme. They pushed them hard as DoW additions to any army, therefore selling more stuff than a stand alone army. That's why they are less risky than Araby, Cathay, Nippon or even the Chaos dwarves.