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Orcboy_Phil
27-01-2007, 06:10
Just wondering if theres anything that can beat this save.

Sarus charecter (Skar or Old Blood dosen't matter)
5+ Scalely Skin Save
Blessed Spawning of Quetzl +1 Scaley Skin save creating a 4+ save.
Light Armour 3+ save
Enchanted sheild 1+ Save
Blessed Spawning of Itzel
Riding a Cold One -1 Save.
All for 148pts. Or 215pts for an Old blood. :cheese:

ORKY ARD BOYZ
27-01-2007, 06:17
That's not possible, 1+ is the highest save.

But if you want to play it thatway, vampire thrall 80 points,
flayed hauberk 30 points 1+ armor save
nightmare with barding 12 -2 save
shield 2 -3 save

124 points

But this couild never happen.

Nell2ThaIzzay
27-01-2007, 06:29
That's not possible, 1+ is the highest save.

But if you want to play it thatway, vampire thrall 80 points,
flayed hauberk 30 points 1+ armor save
nightmare with barding 12 -2 save
shield 2 -3 save

124 points

But this couild never happen.

I think technically it could.

The Flayed Hauberk specifically says that it's a 1+ armor save that cannot be improved by any means. This implies that in other circumstances, 1+ armor saves CAN be improved.

But, because of the wording of the Flayed Hauberk, extra shields and armor won't give any extra armor to the Thrall, because the item specifically says it cannot be improved from a 1+ by any means.

Orcboy_Phil
27-01-2007, 06:30
According to page 30 of the mini rulebook
Observent readers will have noticed that the best save on the armour chart is 2+ on a d6, but it is possible to get a better save. Magic armour is one way to improve the wearers amrour save to 1+ or even less!

As for the Flayed Hauberk thats an illegal configuration as it states in its rules that it cannot be improved by any means.

Mazenda
27-01-2007, 06:38
In the RB p30 it says that you can improve the wearer's armour save to 1+ or even less. But a roll of 1 will always fail.

Nell2ThaIzzay
27-01-2007, 06:40
In the RB p30 it says that you can improve the wearer's armour save to 1+ or even less. But a roll of 1 will always fail.

Exactly!

:p

Dspankdo
27-01-2007, 06:47
Dwarf loerd with gromril armour, shiled, shield bearers and heaps of runes of stone.

ORKY ARD BOYZ
27-01-2007, 06:58
so... that means I can get a -2 armor save and then even if I get hit by a s6 attack I still get a 2+ armor save?

AWESOME!

GranFarfar
27-01-2007, 07:44
so... that means I can get a -2 armor save and then even if I get hit by a s6 attack I still get a 2+ armor save?

AWESOME!

Yes. But very few races are able to reach below 0+armour save. Even fewer now, when you can't combine enchanted shield with other magic armours.

As stated previously, it is not possible with the flayed hauberk since it is specifically stated in its rules.

Tutore
27-01-2007, 08:19
Itīs perfectly legal to have 0+ or less armour save, but you always fail with a 1. Expensive tough, and any opponent will use no-save-allowed weapons against such armies (Iīve always one mean to do this against dwarves, for example).

snurl
27-01-2007, 08:20
And a roll of one will ALWAYS FAIL anyway- so whats the point?

GranFarfar
27-01-2007, 08:22
And a roll of one will ALWAYS FAIL anyway- so whats the point?

Modifiers from strenght. That's the point. It is very sweet indeed to still have a 3+ save vs str 7.

ORKY ARD BOYZ
27-01-2007, 08:25
What's the point of having a 1+ armor save and having a 2+ armor save, it menas even if a s4 atk hits a guy with a 1+ armor save he can still take a 2+ save, now with a guy with -1 for example, he could take a s6 hit and still take a 2+ save, thant means he is virtually immune to lances, boars, chaos knights, vampires, etc. becasue of the 2+ save, (think terminators getting fired on by lasguns) That is the ultimite in cheese!

Griefbringer
27-01-2007, 08:45
As for the Flayed Hauberk thats an illegal configuration as it states in its rules that it cannot be improved by any means.

I don't think it is illegal configuration - the rules of the Flayed Hauberk do not prohibit one from taking any equipment, it is just that the additional equipment has no effect as regards the armour saving throw.

Revlid
27-01-2007, 08:58
These days Magic Handweapons and Magic Shields can work alongside their mundane/magical counterparts to give a Handweapon and Shield bonus. So the Enchanted Shield, for a handweapon wielding character on foot, is a 4+ Save on its own.

So my Beastlord can get a 1+ Save for 20 Points, with an Enchanted Shield and Chaos Armour, and still take a Magic Weapon.

Dspankdo
27-01-2007, 09:08
No you cannot use magical weapons in conjunction with shield to get the +1 bonus.

Festus
27-01-2007, 09:11
Hi

No you cannot use magical weapons in conjunction with shield to get the +1 bonus.
Yes, you can - as long as the Magic Weapon follows the rules for Handweapons explicitly. Sword of the Quest is one of the very few items that are so, though.

Festus

Murderous Monkey
27-01-2007, 09:41
These days Magic Handweapons and Magic Shields can work alongside their mundane/magical counterparts to give a Handweapon and Shield bonus. So the Enchanted Shield, for a handweapon wielding character on foot, is a 4+ Save on its own.

So my Beastlord can get a 1+ Save for 20 Points, with an Enchanted Shield and Chaos Armour, and still take a Magic Weapon.

Isn't that two magic armour selections and therefore illegal?

sigur
27-01-2007, 09:52
Indeed, because Chaos Armour is a magic armour for BoC. Good point, monkey.;)

Avian
27-01-2007, 10:55
Dwarf loerd with gromril armour, shiled, shield bearers and heaps of runes of stone.
You can only have a single Rune of Stone and shieldbearers limits your best possible armour save to 1+ (which is the best a dwarf can get, though he can get a re-roll and a ward in addition to this).

Dspankdo
27-01-2007, 10:58
Damn, well isn't there a rune that gives you a 1+ save?

Avian
27-01-2007, 11:08
Yes, but again it cannot be improved. Dwarfs cannot get beyond 1+.

ashc
27-01-2007, 11:23
This question came up on a games day coach competition a couple of years back (which i won :p); the best was a tooled up Dark Elf lord who could get a -1+ save; I can't remember the actual configuration as i havent looked at dark elves in donkey's years, it was something like a Lord with heavy armour (5+) sea dragon cloak (+1/2 against shooting) mounted on a cold one (+2) and the enchanted shield (+2); I think thats right, giving him a -1+ save vs. shooting thanks to the sea dragon cloak. (actually looking back at it, was there a dark elf armour that gave you a 4+ save? in 6th ed he could then have -2+ vs. shooting, but obviously in 7th you now cannot combine the enchanted shield with other magic armour).

its perfectly legal unless it states you cannot get a better save from the combo (i.e. items like the flayed hauberk or armour of meteoric iron) and just remember a roll of a one always fails, and that the main reason for minus armour saves is for modifiers; If that dark elf lord was hit by a handgun (-2 modifier) then he still has a 0+ save and still only fails his save on a one.

Ash

snurl
27-01-2007, 11:32
This question came up on a games day coach competition a couple of years back (which i won :p); the best was a tooled up Dark Elf lord who could get a -1+ save; I can't remember the actual configuration as i havent looked at dark elves in donkey's years, it was something like a Lord with heavy armour (5+) sea dragon cloak (+1/2 against shooting) mounted on a cold one (+2) and the enchanted shield (+2); I think thats right, giving him a -1+ save vs. shooting thanks to the sea dragon cloak. (actually looking back at it, was there a dark elf armour that gave you a 4+ save? in 6th ed he could then have -2+ vs. shooting, but obviously in 7th you now cannot combine the enchanted shield with other magic armour).

its perfectly legal unless it states you cannot get a better save from the combo (i.e. items like the flayed hauberk or armour of meteoric iron) and just remember a roll of a one always fails, and that the main reason for minus armour saves is for modifiers; If that dark elf lord was hit by a handgun (-2 modifier) then he still has a 0+ save and still only fails his save on a one.

Ash

I hope somebody fried it with a spell. Building unkillable caracters like that is just wrong and unsportsmanlike, though it may technically be legal. Give your opponent a fighting chance.

ashc
27-01-2007, 11:36
I hope somebody fried it with a spell. Building unkillable caracters like that is just wrong and unsportsmanlike, though it may technically be legal. Give your opponent a fighting chance.

I never said I actually played it; its all theoryhammer.

Not being funny but that guy is no way unkillable; there are plenty of things in warhammer that ignore armour saves, have a high strength or kill by other means (i.e. magic) and the poor little guys T3 means he is nothing even close to a heavy hitter like a chaos lord or blood dragon vampire. And of course, It always comes back to the fact that even with all that he will still fail his saves on a 1.

Ash

Corrupt
27-01-2007, 11:38
My personal favourite High Elf Prince combo for small Character vs Character fun duel games...
Dragon Armour, Enchanted Shield, Barded Steed, Vambraces of Defence, Sword of Might, Amulet of Purifying Flame.
Total=254pts
Rerollable 1+ Armour Save
4+ Ward Save
Immunity to Fire
-3 To Spells cast on him and his unit.
4 Attacks at Str 5, Ws 7 and I 8

But the best save in the game has GOT to be Tyrion(Does Tyrion get barded mount added to his 1+ armour save?)
If he does you have a -1+ Armour save and a 4+/2+ war save. Ignores first hit against him every CC phase. If it doesnt reduce his save to 1+

ashc
27-01-2007, 11:44
Hi Corrupt, does dragon armour give you a 4+ save (i dont think it does) and you cannot get the hand weapon and shield bonus when you are mounted; so the high elf only has a rerollable 1+ save.

Tyrion's horse counts as a monster and doesn't have barding either, and nor can he have the save for hand weapon and shield.

Ash

kyussinchains
27-01-2007, 11:45
if the dragon armour is magical, it cannot be used with the enchanted shield

Corrupt
27-01-2007, 11:50
Hi Corrupt, does dragon armour give you a 4+ save (i dont think it does) and you cannot get the hand weapon and shield bonus when you are mounted; so the high elf only has a rerollable 1+ save.

Tyrion's horse counts as a monster and doesn't have barding either, and nor can he have the save for hand weapon and shield.

Ash

1) Well pointed out bout the hand weapon and sheild
2) (Quoted here)
Mount: Malhandir.
In battle Malhandir counts as a monster and his profile is given opposite.Malhandir Wears Barding which gives him a 5+ save.

Wierd that Tyrion doesnt get that extra save :(...not that he needs it

3)Dragon Armour is Mundane (Its Heavy Armour which ignores fire) its like Ithilmar Barding and Lion Cloaks...

4) Question. Tyrions magical uber Armour gives him a 1+ save. Does he still get a +! for being mounted? Giving him a 0+ armour save and a 2+ ward. Which is just plain evil!

GranFarfar
27-01-2007, 12:46
I hope somebody fried it with a spell. Building unkillable caracters like that is just wrong and unsportsmanlike, though it may technically be legal. Give your opponent a fighting chance.

Not really. Building characters like this usually result in a lack of offensive capability. And in Dark Elves case, you really need your character to be able to dish out some dmg.

skavenguy13
27-01-2007, 12:59
Well, yes there are a couple combos that can go better than 1+. But unless you can re-roll them, it's rarely worth the extra points. When you get under 2+, a re-roll is usually far more useful.
Or so says my poison swarms who ran over empire knights many times! :p

Griefbringer
27-01-2007, 13:08
Not being funny but that guy is no way unkillable; there are plenty of things in warhammer that ignore armour saves, have a high strength or kill by other means (i.e. magic)


Not to mention combat resolution - having superb toughness, armour save and ward save does little, if you end up facing a unit of 30 goblins (full ranks, outnumbering, musician and standard), lose a round of combat, fail your break test and get run over by the pursuing gobboes! :evilgrin:



4) Question. Tyrions magical uber Armour gives him a 1+ save. Does he still get a +! for being mounted?

No, as he is riding a monster. See rulebook page 30 for details.

Corrupt
27-01-2007, 13:10
I really REALLY need to get that back from my buddy who is learning the game.

Wings of Doom
27-01-2007, 15:53
I quite like:
Chaos Lord (4+ Basic)
Barded Steed (Makes it a 2+)
Enchanted Shield (Makes it a 0+)
Then Gaze of the Gods and Crown of Everlasting Glory (4+ Ward and Regeneration)
Thats a 0+/4+/4+ save. :)

Slap on a halberd and Mark of Khorne and thats six strength six attacks. Thats some hitting power.

EDIT: Just realised thats two talisman... whoops. And also he can't use the shield in conjunction with the halberd.
What can I say? I'm an idiot. :cries:

ashc
27-01-2007, 16:01
I quite like:
Chaos Lord (4+ Basic)
Barded Steed (Makes it a 2+)
Enchanted Shield (Makes it a 0+)
Then Gaze of the Gods and Crown of Everlasting Glory (4+ Ward and Regeneration)
Thats a 0+/4+/4+ save. :)

Slap on a halberd and Mark of Khorne and thats six strength six attacks. Thats some hitting power.

Im afraid thats not legal as if i remember correctly both the crown and gaze are talismans, and you cannot have more than one talisman on a model.

Ash

Murderous Monkey
27-01-2007, 16:44
Not to mention the fact he's then combining a shield with a double handed weapon...

Still A Chaos Lord with Armour of Damnation and Gaze of the Gods is fairly tough. On a barded warhouse with a shield that's a 1+ save (nothing special) and a 4+ ward save, where the opponent has to reroll his successful hits. Not easy to kill. Not as good a basic save as some of the others but very hard to kill in reality. You've also got 40 points left for a tasty magic weapon (rending sword, beserker sword or sword of might being favourites).

Tyrion is probably the best though with his 2+ ward save once he's down to the last wound (especially with his resurrection device). Archaon is also nasty. 1+ save, never wounded on worse than 3+ and a 3+ ward. Get orange fire on him and there are rerolls for the armour and ward saves. Plain sick.

Makaber
27-01-2007, 19:00
My favorite is a Dark Elf with heavy armour, sea dragon cloak, on a cold one, with Shield of Ghrond. On paper that's "only" a 1+, but the Shield of Ghrond effectivly makes it a 0+, and gives the Lord the same effect as having one more Toughness.

ORKY ARD BOYZ
27-01-2007, 19:52
Chaos lord with enchanted shield and barded chaos steed 0+ armor save

Corrupt
27-01-2007, 19:55
Nah still aint seen anything to rival 1+ Armour followed by 2+ Ward.

ORKY ARD BOYZ
27-01-2007, 20:03
Have to admit Tyrion's 1+ armor save followed by a 2+ ward save is good, but he sure isnt as killy as Achaeon.

Corrupt
27-01-2007, 20:15
Ws 9, Str 7 A 4
Rerolls failed misses in combat and can cast Fury of Khaine!
Ignores first hit every combat too.
How pricy is Archaeon anyways coz Im sure I'd get Tyrion AND Teclis for the cost of The Lord of End Times

Nell2ThaIzzay
27-01-2007, 20:17
Hi

Yes, you can - as long as the Magic Weapon follows the rules for Handweapons explicitly. Sword of the Quest is one of the very few items that are so, though.

Festus

So, will the special weapon say something like "follows all rules for handweapons" or something? Or is it basically 1 handed magical weapons?

Because, when looking through my Vampire Counts book at some possile character configurations, my friend mentioned taking a Wight Lord with Heavy Armor, Enchanted Shield, and the Sword of Kings, giving him a 2+ armor save:

Heavy Armor - 5+
w/ Enchanted Shield - 3+
w/ Hand Weapon / Shield Combo - 2+

I asked him if I could do that, because I thought that magic weapons couldn't be used with Hand Weapon / Shield combo, but him (usually knowing the rules pretty well) said there was no reason why the Sword of Kings would negate the Hand Weapon / Shield combo as it didn't take 2 hands, so you could still use the shield.

The Sword of Kings doesn't have any wording in it's rules that would set it apart from any other magic in my list, in terms of being a Hand Weapon or not, while I do have an item that specifically states it is a Great Weapon.

So, was my friend correct, and the Wight Lord would get a 2+ save through Hand Weapon / Shield, or was he mistaken?

ashc
27-01-2007, 20:20
He is wrong. You cannot get the hand weapon and shield bonus if any of these things are on the character:

The character is mounted
The shield is NOT mundane
The hand weapon is NOT mundane
The hand weapon is two-handed

as his wight lord has 2 of the 4 things above he cannot legally claim the hand weapon and shield bonus.

Ash

sabre4190
27-01-2007, 21:44
i think the best i can imagine is archaon with orange fire in effect. !+ armor rerollable and 3+ ward rerollable (while he has this spell on mind you). and he cant be wounded on better than a 3+.

Then remember, that Archaon is T5 and Tyrion is T3. but tyrion can parry. but archy can kill anyone who tried to touch him. its hard to say that just a save matters when factors like this are invloved.


btw, characters like this with an ungodly save are somewhat useless in my opinion. If i win by combat res and chase the unit down then i kill them anyway.

dominic_carrillo
28-01-2007, 05:10
my friend cheated and got a -1 rerollable save with his bretonnian lord. we beat the crap out of him behind the gamestore

dominic_carrillo
28-01-2007, 05:11
So, will the special weapon say something like "follows all rules for handweapons" or something? Or is it basically 1 handed magical weapons?

Because, when looking through my Vampire Counts book at some possile character configurations, my friend mentioned taking a Wight Lord with Heavy Armor, Enchanted Shield, and the Sword of Kings, giving him a 2+ armor save:

Heavy Armor - 5+
w/ Enchanted Shield - 3+
w/ Hand Weapon / Shield Combo - 2+

I asked him if I could do that, because I thought that magic weapons couldn't be used with Hand Weapon / Shield combo, but him (usually knowing the rules pretty well) said there was no reason why the Sword of Kings would negate the Hand Weapon / Shield combo as it didn't take 2 hands, so you could still use the shield.

The Sword of Kings doesn't have any wording in it's rules that would set it apart from any other magic in my list, in terms of being a Hand Weapon or not, while I do have an item that specifically states it is a Great Weapon.

So, was my friend correct, and the Wight Lord would get a 2+ save through Hand Weapon / Shield, or was he mistaken?

cheater! only mundane hand weapons can be combined with a shield to get the bonus to the save.

vorac
28-01-2007, 05:16
actually you can still use the hand weapon shield rule if your using an enchanted shield but not a magic weapon unless it is stated as counting a a handweapon in the description i just checked the rulebook page.121

Griefbringer
28-01-2007, 08:45
Essentially, what vorac says.

To get the shield and hand weapon bonus, the weapon needs to explicitely be classified as a hand weapon, ie. it is either a mundane hand weapon or a magical weapon that explicitely states in the description that it counts as hand weapon.

By default, magic weapons do not count as hand weapons (regardless of the number of hands required to use them).

Festus
28-01-2007, 09:57
Hi

He is wrong. You cannot get the hand weapon and shield bonus if any of these things are on the character:

The character is mounted
The shield is NOT mundane
The hand weapon is NOT mundane
The hand weapon is two-handed

as his wight lord has 2 of the 4 things above he cannot legally claim the hand weapon and shield bonus.
You obviously did not have the pleasure of reading the 7th ed rules, then? As everything you say is the 6th ed. rules, but those were changed with 7th.

A character on foot may claim the enhanced save with a magical shield and a magical handweapon. Boths still must be of the appropriate type.

As a Magic Weapon loses all rules not covered in its description (p.121), they generally do not qualify for the bonus, as they are not handweapons. If the Item is explicitly given as a handweapon, those rules will again apply and thus will the bonus save as well.

A shield may be magical in 7th and gain the save bonus as all other shields do. (p.56)

Festus

zak
28-01-2007, 10:36
Festus,

I don't doubt that your right, but this doesn't really clear the matter up too much for me. Can you give me some examples of weapons that count and why and some that don't and why. This may then end the speculation as I'm a bit confused without my copy of the big red book to refer to.

Thanks.

ashc
28-01-2007, 10:59
Fair enough Festus, I will quietly dissappear; Im not playing 7th edition. No one around where i live has played fantasy since June, and so im practically out of the game.

Ash

chivalrous
28-01-2007, 11:20
Festus,

I don't doubt that your right, but this doesn't really clear the matter up too much for me. Can you give me some examples of weapons that count and why and some that don't and why. This may then end the speculation as I'm a bit confused without my copy of the big red book to refer to.

Thanks.

I think the only magic weapon that can count as a handweapon, is the Bretonnians' Sword of the Quest which states that it can be used either as a Great Weapon or as a Handweapon.

Griefbringer
28-01-2007, 11:38
I think the only magic weapon that can count as a handweapon, is the Bretonnians' Sword of the Quest which states that it can be used either as a Great Weapon or as a Handweapon.

That is also the only such magic weapon that I am aware of currently.

Festus
28-01-2007, 11:40
Hi

Wight Blades are another example: They count as magical weapons, but explicitly retain their mundane rules.

Festus

zak
28-01-2007, 11:55
Thankyou. Confusion over.:D