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lazarus
16-07-2005, 18:50
Been pondering this some time - (mainly after having my ass handed back to me each year at the UK GT's)..........

I start out thinking right you *******'s next time I'm gonna do this and then that and boy are you in trouble ......

But the months pass and I start to plan my army and before I know it I've gone all balanced and fluff creeps into my army, still though I prepare to proudly defend the virtues of honest gamers and then...........(well you know how it goes)

My question is at the top - come on guys what do you think? :rolleyes:

Grand Warlord
16-07-2005, 20:21
Yes it can, but its much easier if it's not.

I play a balanced empire but I am hardpressed against those to obviously play to win, granted that's the point.... but still I play more for fun... my balanced list is 3--1-2 for Gt's so far.

Griefbringer
16-07-2005, 22:37
To put it another way around: if I would end up getting last in a GT, I would much rather end up there with a balanced list than a fully cheesed out one.

Archaon
17-07-2005, 10:03
I've never been to a (german) GT but judging from the lists people play there and the lists i've seen by people who went i*'d rather cut off one hand than to attend a GT.

The GT is, at least to me, a pure powergaming fest where you only have a chance if you maximize your force and throw out background, army composition and sometimes make even use of dodgy rules or rules interpretations.

This is not for me.. i like competitive games and this fall i'm going to a big Fantasy Tournament but a) it is much cheaper and better organized, b) the organisation know about the rules weaknesses and try to balance them out with army composition rules and mission special rules and finally c) it is a tournament and therefore competitive as hell but at no point did i encounter the bastard gamer from hell who'll do just about anything to win (i even got massacred by a Khemri Force but the guy was so decent and good natured that it got me over the game without losing my temper because everything went wrong).

So to sum it up.. GTs are not known for balanced games and if you want to play such you better start looking for privately organized events.

Adept
17-07-2005, 10:09
Arguably, a balanced list is the only thing that can see you through a GT.

To get into the top three, you really can't afford a loss. You need to win all five of your games. An unbalanced list will, more often than not, encounter it's nemesis in terms of army list or terrain and lose a game, ensuring it's place in the middle of the field. An unbalanced army list simply can't handle a wide enough range of threats to be competitive over-all.

warpoet
18-07-2005, 01:19
I admit I haven't been to many tournaments, but I find that a balanced list suffers from being good at everything, but master of none.

I'm getting to the point of wanting to make armies that really set-out to dominate some aspect of the game. That may set you up for some pretty dramatic losses, but oh the victories!

I don't think this is power-gaming, either, because you are still leaving yourself open to the armies that counter you. And I think you can be very characterful, too.

starlight
18-07-2005, 01:58
Unlike 40K, where you can tool up for anti T4/3+Save and rest assured that you're okay against the vast majority of your opponents (Marines/Chaos/Necrons/X-Hunters), in Fantasy you really need a balanced list if you want to be serious about topping a GT.

You can win a GT with a power list, but as already been pointed out, a power list is more likely to meet it's counter in either opponent, terrain or mission at least once. A balanced list is less likely to suffer in this way, giving you a good chance of winning every game rather than a great chance in three or four games and a lousy chance in the rest.

Having staffed a few tournaments including GT level here in Canada, balanced is the way to go if you want to be competitive. They just do better in the hands of a competent general. :)

That being said, horribly abusive power lists can be great to play against if your opponent is a good sport. :D

samw
18-07-2005, 02:23
I suppose the problem is very few good sports play uber power lists!

AKBandito
18-07-2005, 08:52
definitely not , unles u get alot of draws and get good marks on sportsmanship/painting..etc.

Im the same, after every tournament/GT I tell myself that next army
will be ridiculiously uber w/ this general and these rare units.. etc
but then I read a few army book stories and get a fluff idea for an army.
And then build it, only to have it get raped in tourneys.
I get more satisfaction out of beating n00bs w/ chosen knights+3 chariots+2 giant type armies with my balanced list than taking one of those armies myself.

proximity
18-07-2005, 09:37
theres a bit of confusion around balance, as there are two types. Theres balanced in that they can do a bit of everything, shoot/h2h/magic etc - which alot of people are interpreting it as, and then theres balanced as in non cheesy/beardy. You can have an army that specialises almost solely in h2h, but is still a balanced non cheese filled army.. but the question is, will it win you a GT?
One of the things to take into account are the sportsmanship points lost for such an army list..

Mad Doc Grotsnik
18-07-2005, 11:22
I'd rather lose with a balanced list than claim a hollow victory using a Beardy Army of Doom.

Perhaps I'm being overtly anti-beard, but I do detest those smug self-polluters (see, rudeness without being obscene) collecting their trophies, claiming superior tactics, and not just having Alessio write your Army list.

Adept
18-07-2005, 11:38
definitely not , unles u get alot of draws and get good marks on sportsmanship/painting..etc.

Absolute twoddle.

To be competitive, a player needs to amass 75 battle points (assuming 20 potential points per game, over a five game event). He also needs to score well in comp and sports scores. To be in the top three, he needs 85+ battle points, as a minimum.

An unbalanced army will not score that highly in battle points. It might get three massacres (60 points), before it gets a crappy table and it's nemesis army, and gets massacred in return. If it is lucky, it might get four massacres and one massacre against it. Maximum of 80 battle points (and poor comp scores) if it's lucky. No top three for it. As a general rule.

The all chariot magic army of doom will eventually encounter someone with three or four S7 weapons and poor terrain, and get stomped. The all shooty army will end up facing the all cav Bretonnians in the 'mists of dawn' scenario. The magic heavy HE army will get stomped on by the gobbo horde, and so on. Tooled out armies cannot handle all of the threats they will face in five games. Even the best player with a tooled out army will need to be extremely lucky to get a trophy with any kind of one or two dimensional army.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
18-07-2005, 11:45
Remember though. If you do design a beardy army, the trick is understanding your weakness and knowing how best to apply damage limitation should the poo hit the spinny thing.

For example, in my Druchii list, I use a Dragon, Manticore, 4 Chariots, 2 Hydras and 30 Crossbows. Am still trying to shoe horn in some Harpies. Anyways. My major weakness is Magic. I have 2 dispel dice in 2,000 points. I have experimented with the Ring of Hotek with vary success. But so far, my only option is to charge the front of the units with Mages in, allocate one lot of attacks on him/her, and have the rest duff up the unit in general. And thats it. Even so, it only takes one half decent round of magic to start worrying me. Especially those ******* remains in play spells. I just can't get rid of them!

Adept
18-07-2005, 12:29
Remember though. If you do design a beardy army, the trick is understanding your weakness and knowing how best to apply damage limitation should the poo hit the spinny thing.

For example, in my Druchii list, I use a Dragon, Manticore, 4 Chariots, 2 Hydras and 30 Crossbows. Am still trying to shoe horn in some Harpies. Anyways. My major weakness is Magic. I have 2 dispel dice in 2,000 points. I have experimented with the Ring of Hotek with vary success. But so far, my only option is to charge the front of the units with Mages in, allocate one lot of attacks on him/her, and have the rest duff up the unit in general. And thats it. Even so, it only takes one half decent round of magic to start worrying me. Especially those ******* remains in play spells. I just can't get rid of them!

Rather my point, really. You've got quite a monster heavy list. It is, I would say, unbalanced with four monsters and four chariots. Yet magic will see you undone. What do you think the chances of going through five games in a competitive environment without encountering a magic heavy army are?

The same is true of all unbalanced armies. They're good against most other armies, great against some, and terrible against some. Over five games, their chances of coming spactacularly unglued at some stage are high.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
18-07-2005, 12:35
Indeed. But my biggest concern would be taking on Undead Armies. That would be tricksy, as I depend a great deal upon psychology to win against Horde armies. In fact, with the VC and TK Magic, and immunity to psychology, I reckon I'd be buggered 9 times out of 10!

To be honest, most armies stand quite a good chance against me, if the opponent can step back and think clearly about how best to negate me. Of course, thats where the skill comes in, knowing each opponents strengths and how to best to minimise them.

Adept
18-07-2005, 13:33
To be honest, most armies stand quite a good chance against me, if the opponent can step back and think clearly about how best to negate me. Of course, thats where the skill comes in, knowing each opponents strengths and how to best to minimise them.

Oh, I don't know. It sounds like it could be quite a powerful army. I've never played against Hydras, so I don't really know how they work, but the Dragon will be a problem (provided you're clever with it) and the Manticore compounds the problem.

It would probably be nastier with shades and dark riders instead of the chariots, as well.

I imagine you fare quite well against fast combat armies, ala Chaos Knights or Bretonnians?

fffrankenstein
18-07-2005, 13:34
Well at the uk gt I think it might just be difficult with a balanced list.
Some armies can do it thou, skaven vampires and maybe bretts but those are the real powerhouses anyway.
Its all about having fun thats true but the uk gts really sets the tone of hard armies. Surely you will do better if you have a harder list but do you think its worth it?

blood angel
18-07-2005, 14:29
Balanced is the way to go but there is a lot more to winning a GT than just the list. You have to be intimately familiar with the capabilities of every troop in your army. You can't have 'wasted' points with a balanced list. Wasted can mean lots of things but it certainly applies to the player not knowing how to best use his army selection, no matter what it is.

Granted, I have never won a fantasy GT but I have won in 40k so take that for whatever it's worth.

moonlightpines
18-07-2005, 14:38
A balanced list though will be generally facing off against several powerhouse lists. Therefore what are the chances that the balanced list will win all of thier games?

Also are you more likely to win your games with a powerful list of a balanced one? If a powerful one will almost guarantee a win 3 out of 5 times, whereas balanced could be 2 out of 5, which way would most people go?

Adept
18-07-2005, 15:02
A balanced list though will be generally facing off against several powerhouse lists. Therefore what are the chances that the balanced list will win all of thier games?

Also are you more likely to win your games with a powerful list of a balanced one? If a powerful one will almost guarantee a win 3 out of 5 times, whereas balanced could be 2 out of 5, which way would most people go?

Why would balanced only win two out of five games?

They might not get five massacres, but in the hands of a good general, a balanced list will generally score five wins. In the hands of a poor, or average general it will not. That is why it takes a good general, who is also a good painter and modeller and a great guy to play against to win a GT. He can take that balanced army, and make it work for him without dropping points in comp and sports and picking up good painting and army scores along the way.

blood angel
18-07-2005, 18:46
Powerhouse lists typically commit to one aspect of the game. Facing them you have to quickly determine their weakness and try to capitalize on it.

This can be done with a balanced this.

fffrankenstein
19-07-2005, 12:57
He can take that balanced army, and make it work for him without dropping points in comp and sports and picking up good painting and army scores along the way.
I see youre point. But there is no painting or comp score at the uk gt. Its all war baby.
You will if you play good face like 2 sads, one lizzie all skink and a powerful vampire, all the lists there in the top are really hard.

lazarus
19-07-2005, 18:12
Some interesting views and points.

The problem with the UKGT seems to be th ecomplete lack of focus on anything but the winning - there's no impact from comp or sportsmanship on your standing so you can't gain there.

I've never had a game I've hated (one or two where I could gave strangled my apponant!!) but I've seen Skaven Armies of Doom mrip me apart in turn 1 the Uber Chaos Chosen special run me over etc........at times it's not been a test of generalship but pure number cruching.

Still you gotta love it.............. :rolleyes:

Lestat
20-07-2005, 00:41
There are sportsmanship and painting scores in the UK GT.
They are just crap.
The painting scores anyone can get.
The sportsmanship scores are judged by the people you play. Making them very irregular.
I've attended quiet a few uk tourney's and have ranged from max sporting points to negative points. It really just does depend on who you play.

As for can you win a GT with a balanced army.
Well first it depends on what you been by balanced. But I will say no you can't.
In a GT you will find people who know there armies backwards, they will no there weakness and strengths totally. And will weild there army like a surgeon weilding a scapel. And a 'balanced' army as its called will just be taken apart piece by piece.

To both the GT heat and final. I took an army that few would consider balanced.
11 casting dice making me magic heavy (including 7 dispel dice, 4 scrolls and 3 units with magic resitance. Magic is one of my armies weakness. I tried and in the main suceeded with this set up).
6 units of fast cav
3 units of hard hitting skirmishers and
2 great eagles.

Yep I went for pure speed. I went with the intent of winning 2 of the 4 phases, movement and magic. And with winning the those, I was hoping I would get the edge in the other 2. Which despite generally not being able to win normally, if I could get them into favorable positions I should be able to.
Well that was the theory anyway.
All in all, I had a horrible army to play against. But to me thats what I expect a GT, everyone to be weilding there army to the best of their ability.

The big problem I've found with GTs is I can look at a battle before it even starts and 9 times out of 10 I will no the winner. Which is a shame really.

Anyway this is what I had to play.
Heat
Game 1 - Skaven horde/shooty/death. I got a minor victory. Should have proberly been more, but in my final turn I had 2 units of fast cav fail to run down the grey seers and his unit in the final turn. They then rallied and cost be a lot of vps.
Game 2 - Slannesh demons. A very very fast force, but not as mauvable as my own. I got a freak role when a single hail doom took out his 600 points demon prince. The game ended after 4 turns. Masscare.
Game 3 - Nurgle/khorne demons. They had 3 dispel dice and a single scroll. Masscare.
Game 4 - Skink horde. I got well and truelly butcherd in this one. My frail troops just couldn't deal with his skinks and salamanders, and the frog won the magic phase. Got Massacred.
Game 5 - Night Goblin/Savage Orcs. A strange game this one. I was crusing to a major victory. But in the last orc magic phase his savage orc shaman lord miscast, but then cast the spell with total power on the miscast (Its an orc thing). The foot of gork came down on my army, then came down again and again. All in all a single spell killed over 1000 points of my army. End result draw.
Game 6 - Nurgle demons. Low magic defence again and this time with no speed at all. Solid Victory.

Final
Game 1 - balancedish skaven (basically a normal list but a warlord leading instead of a grey seer, it was still backed up 3 warlocks). A strange game all round for both of us. My wardancers couldn't kill jezzials in combat. His plague lost frenzy to a unit of glade riders. End result draw
Game 2 - Magic heavy, infantry vampire counts. 11+ casting dice and 2 bound spells. I managed to do one of the things my army is designed to do in this one, kill his necromancers. I managed to kill all his surport troops and take out 2 of 3 big infanty blocks. But I lost a fair bit doing so. Solid victory
Game 3 - Royal Bretonnian air force. A horrible, horrible game to play. The knights pretty much killed my speed bonus and everything else in the army had a 2+ as and the blessing. But had little in the way of magic defence. We both lost a hell of a lot. I had only 9 models left at the end. But those 9 models where almost half my army cost. Draw.
Game 4 - Skink horde again. Same result as before, but at least I managed to kill off a couple of his sallies. Got Massacred.
Game 5 - Skaven magic, shooty horde again. I'm not sure why, but this is an army I've never really had problems with. I didn't this time either. Massacre.
Game 6 - Balanced undead, count, 2 necros, thrall for heros. Mixed in with a good mix of infantry blocks and surport troops. Not sure what happened in this game, but the undead just stayed in the corner, trying to keep away from my life magic. But then I out charged him, out magiced and out shot. I killed pretty much all his surport troops but couldn't get to his big infantry blocks. But I still got an easy solid victory.

Man can I talk bollox when I get going all what.
Over the heat and the final I pretty much played every 'tourney' power army there is. (Except the Tzzentch ben-hur army). And overall I could at least put up a good fight against all off them bar the skink/sallie horde. The frog was immune to my normal mage hunting and I had got nothing to answer to their sallies. Yet in other games both lizzie generals got massacred by SAD skaven.

So to win a tourney you need I think 3 things.

1. A powerful army you can use to almost perfection. One that does the classic mini/max. Minimix your weakness and maximix your strenghts.
2. How to fight and least have a chance against any other army. Exspecially the other 'tourney' armies.
3. And most importantly pure blind luck. Luck with what armies and players you draw. Luck like the orc/goblin had against me. That when your playing an army/player that you should lose to. That you get some luck which can turn it around.

Anyway I'm done with tourney's for now.

Laters.
Lestat.

Adept
20-07-2005, 04:32
When I say balanced, I mean an army that has a reasonable chance of beating any other army configuration on any type of terrain, under any kind of scenario.

Lestat: Where abouts in the field did you finish?

AKBandito
20-07-2005, 10:19
3. And most importantly pure blind luck. Luck with what armies and players you draw. Luck like the orc/goblin had against me. That when your playing an army/player that you should lose to. That you get some luck which can turn it around.


I've definitely gotta agree there, player/army draw.
And those freaky rolls that stop a crucial blocker unit from breaking, or that
irresistable force in the first/second turn when you aren't expecting to
get spells off until 3rd/4th turn because of dispel scrolls.

Underway
20-07-2005, 12:57
Well lets look at the top tournament armies out there:

SAD: extremely well balanced, good shooting, good magic, good movement and good number of combat units (static combat res). This is a well balanced list INTERNALY and doesn't often come upon a situation that it can't handle. I think however that shooty skaven will be seen less and less as the new WE list seems perfectly designed to eliminate the shooty elements. However combat against the horde will still be difficult. See, internal balance.

Skink Southlands: Good shooting, good magic, excellent movement, decent combat IF you take Krox's. Southlands trys to avoid combat because that's where it is weak. If you can catch them they are pretty much dead. I think the WE list will spell the doom of many Southlands lists.

RAF: Good magic, excellent combat, excellent movement. The Bretts do best when not exposed to extreme amounts of missile fire and get into combat fast. They can be bogged down with stubborn units (think dwarves) and dealt with but a good player won't let you take advantage of that weakness.

VC: excellent magic, combat and movement. No shooting though. However undead lists that dominate magic are relatively immune to shooting. This list is well balanced internally as well, but needs magic to survive. Remove the magic and it falls down somewhat.

Personally the best lists are ones that don't necessarily have balance in them but REDUNDANCY in their lists. Look at the above tournament lists that always win. They have muliple units that can do the same thing. If they loose a unit they have one or two others that can take up the slack and do the same thing. They are able to cover their weaknesses with multiple redundancies. Sure the Skink army dies in combat BUT you have to catch all 10 units of skinks to win. Redundancy is key to winning tournaments just as much as balance is.

blood angel
20-07-2005, 17:29
yeah, you for sure have to build redundancy into your lists, even the balanced ones.

peteratwar
21-07-2005, 08:00
Tourneys especially in the early stages can invovle a lot of tactical play which often has little to do with tactics. i.e. your opponent is playing to get a solid victory so will risk little & pick off a couple of your units. He may use mobile troops to entice you forward but be very quick to retreat.

That said the question is what is a balanced army ? Often it can be an army which does nothing well. Personally I think you have to consider your own game style. I prefer to keep magic defensive. In that case I then have what I hope is a balanced fighting army with decently proportioned shooting, infantry, cavalry, mobiles. If you go with an equal balance of both magic and fighting which is technically a balanced army then, no I don't think you will win. But if you decide your strength is going to be magic or fighting then you stand a better chance BUT again I don't think you can go too far down either path. Basically I have seem too many uber armies fail be they the big gun lines or the big magics.

Not easy to explain as in any event dice rolls can change the whole event. Can only say that in the last tourney I was in I went with a fighting force with a scroll caddy and some other magic defenses. I won 4 out of 5 games & the fifth was one of those where although I rolled (I think) pretty average dice they were always in the wrong place e.g. 2 x 1 to wound someone, 2 x 6 for LD test!

fffrankenstein
21-07-2005, 12:08
Well with no disrespect I think we are talking 2 different languishes here. Balance hear and there, the question was this guy taking out the hard parts of his army and replacing them with fluffier stuff.
Say a salamander shoots hard, tk light cav dont.
Lv4 life wizard magic hard and a Lv 4 light wizard dont.
And so forth, its much more about picking the good stuff not just getting a list with some shooting magic and combat and/or a list that can loose a few causalities and still perform.
Thats how I got the question anyway and my answer is no you cant se a bad list throw a gt.
Good thread otherwise, nice advice that you can follow after you have cheesed out a bit. But you need to bring the all cheesy über units to the uk gt if you wish to win.
My question again will you think its worth it?
My advice is do it, because everybody(not everybody but the top players anyway, and a good deal of other to come to think about it) does it.

Gaius Marius
21-07-2005, 16:24
:eek: What does balanced mean? What does Beardy / Cheesy mean?

I have over the years heard just about every unit and / or item / army style described as cheesy or beardy. Never my Army of course :angel:

Someone is always going to complain about something, usually because they just lost.

According to my understanding of balanced - which I take to mean not a one trick pony - means a list that is able to take on an army from any other army book and achieve a solid result. Armies designed as one off lists put together specifically to beat your buddy's Vampires or Lizzies aren't balanced. A magic heavy army that is capable of fighting any other list with good odds is not unbalanced, tough certainly but not unbalanced. The Tzeentch magic and chariot fiesta (deadly to some, a pushover to others) which can also be described as magic heavy is unbalanced, precisly because it is so situational in its effectiveness.

Balanced is not the same as not cheesy. Cheesy is much harder to define (to my mind) anyway. Maybe we should have another thread aobut how we define cheese. :cheese: Was it Gouda for you? The discussion of cheese could make me BLUE... His army wasn't fair, he is a real Che-ddar... To Brie or not to Brie, that is the question... :rolleyes:

So I think that yes a balanced army can win Grand Tournaments, well they can certainly win 'Conflict' tournaments here in Canada. Scarriest opponent I ever faced at a 'Conflict' (like a regional GT by the way, this country is too damn big sometimes) had a very balanced Empire army... some knights, lots of infantry, a little magic, a guy on a Pegasus, two mortars and wait for it... Tactics! Yup tactics. I find unbalance armies don't use tactics they use their one 'trick'. If you can figure that out - and the good players always can... you will beat them - barring hubris and the Dice Gods (TM)

No, I haven't won a GT. Best I've done was 2nd place / Best General at a Conflict in Montreal, I 'lost' to the above mentioned Empire player, our game was a draw. I used an Empire Army myself, led by a Grandmaster, that had no steam tank and a THEME. The other guys in the top 5 also had balanced lists, and themes too for that matter.

Commissar Vaughn
21-07-2005, 17:18
ive only played in a couple of conflicts with my high elves, aint had chance to get to a gt yet (was hoping to go in august but am too busy!) Anyway i field what was described generally as a balanced high elf army: commander, mage, 3x5 silver helms, 2x21 spearmen, 14 archers and an rbt.

At conflict chester (a fairly small affair admittedly) i came third having massacred 3 opponents and drawn aginst a fourth. the draw was aginst a well balanced empire army, after massacring a balanced dark elf army, chaos mortal army and a magic heavy deamons of tzeentch army (is there any other kind? this one actually won overall)

by comparison at manchester a couple of months later i got one massacre (against the empire player above) one draw and one defeat, drawing against a character heavy ogre army and being completely overun by a woodelf army (i cant say if this was balanced or unbalanced as all woodelf armies are identical. it was fielded by alan(?) turner who went on to win the conflict, and every other conflict!)

i was hoping after typing that out to have drawn a conclusion, or at least an hypothosis as to which on average does better, balanced or unbalanced. but there are so many other considerations.
at chester my dice rolls were probably about average, whereas at manchester my elves fled in terror at the mere sight of a walking tree or ogre. the way i used my army was also different, some days you have flights of tactical genius (like against the chaos mortal army which lost 6 out of 8 units by the start of my opponents second turn) and others where your just clutching at straws and sending your elves here there and everywhere hoping you'll catch the tree huggers eventually (like against the woodelves at manchester, where i lost all my abilities to manouvre and started walking round in circles getting shot at a lot).

anybody like to try drawing any wisdom (if present) from that little lot? its the end of my lunch break....

Warlord Gnashgrod
21-07-2005, 18:32
Perhaps balanced won't get you to the winners circle of a GT. I really don't care either way.

You see, it's not that hard to win with a 'cheesy army'. The true tactical masters can win most of their games with balanced lists, perhaps even against those overpowered, 'cheesy' lists.

This is the true challenge of the game, IMO. It's what seperates the men from the boys. Doing very well in games with a balanced list.

lazarus
21-07-2005, 19:33
You know I'm pleased with some of the stuff here -- nobody has gone off on one and it's been good to think about.

For balanced I think in terms of what the spirit of the list implies......you take the core and work out over rather than start with the special/rare and chuck in what's left of your points on minimum core.

I agree many UK GT lists can be seen as balanced - but just because it says you can doesn't mean you should s how I like to do it.

Anyhow - It's Empire for me in September and there's no Hellblaster or STank in my army!!! :eek: ;)

fffrankenstein
22-07-2005, 06:29
Well best of luck to you, hope you do well and most of all have a good time.

TeddyC
22-07-2005, 16:22
I admit I haven't been to many tournaments, but I find that a balanced list suffers from being good at everything, but master of none.

I'm getting to the point of wanting to make armies that really set-out to dominate some aspect of the game. That may set you up for some pretty dramatic losses, but oh the victories!

I don't think this is power-gaming, either, because you are still leaving yourself open to the armies that counter you. And I think you can be very characterful, too.

But that said......

The only armies that can counter you are also going to be maxed out with cheesy stuff. How could a balanced army seriously take on the infamous Khorne Chosen Knights or a skaven Skyre army? While one would be the others nemesis.. how could say a balanced lizardman/empire/elf/infact anything face it? They may all have units that are able to face them..... but lets take lizardmen as an example versus the knights....

My kroxigors might do ok with high stregnth, my CoR might do ok with a flank charge, my maxed out lord on carnosaur would probably do well..... but the rest of the army is effectivley useless, skinks might kill one or 2 knights but most will bounce harmlessly off armour, terradons would be pretty useless even saurus would be slaughtered i imagine against a charge.

Im going to my first tournament in august (doubles tourney for the midlands cell at WhW anyone?) and taking lizardmen while my partner is taking slayers. While he has little option what he goes for im going for a nimble, fast list so overall its balanced.

Im not trying to say anyone is wrong or right, obviously different lists are meant to be played differently but my view of tourneys (at the moment) is that you have to have some sort of nasty combos to work well for you. This might only be my experience against the pool of players i play though and the stuff they use

Adept
23-07-2005, 03:08
To follow on from your Lizards and Chaos analogy...

The skinks and terradons would be invaluable to you. Frenzied knights ain't that hard to beat, provided you can make them charge fast 'bait' units (which will flee) which will expose their flanks to your ranked up units of Saurus. Even Bretonnian men-at-arms will win if they charge chosen Khorne knights in the flank.

Lestat
25-07-2005, 06:59
In the heat I came 6th.

In the final I think it was 18th. Not 100% sure on that one. But it was around there.

Cpt. Drill
25-07-2005, 15:09
One of the most powerful armys does really well and it is balance... the balances skaven army!

goes something like...
10x 20 clanrats
10x 20 slaves
3x ratling guns
some hero....

its soo powerful because... there are so many troops... and they are all coving each other...

but for a bent army how does this sound?
DoW

Paymaster
Asarnil the dragon lord
2x25dwarfs
2x6 empire cav
6x duelists
hero on pegesus

most poowerful ever at 1500!

ironduke
26-07-2005, 10:58
I have a seperate thread in the tactics section that essentially covered this dialemma.
The answer we came to that a balanced army is one that can do well in every round of the game reasonably well, has some suprises up its sleeves and with an effective general is an unstoppable fighting force.
It is also the army that is most fun to play with opposed to the SAD army or the Tzeentch flying one (i hate these so much)

P.S. Lazarus see u in September, hope i face you with my high elf army of balance

ironduke
26-07-2005, 11:03
sorry about my grammar it gets attrocious when your rambling and working at the same time

fffrankenstein
26-07-2005, 13:13
sorry about my grammar it gets attrocious when your rambling and working at the same time
Ok, for this time then :mad: :)

AKBandito
30-07-2005, 12:04
Perhaps balanced won't get you to the winners circle of a GT. I really don't care either way.

You see, it's not that hard to win with a 'cheesy army'. The true tactical masters can win most of their games with balanced lists, perhaps even against those overpowered, 'cheesy' lists.

This is the true challenge of the game, IMO. It's what seperates the men from the boys. Doing very well in games with a balanced list.

My mind, to your mind.
My thoughts, to your thoughts.

that is exactly how I feel when I goto tournaments.
and alot of the players with the overpowered, 'cheesy' lists get frustrated
when I make them work for their VPs.

The Kremlin
30-07-2005, 16:30
Agreed. Winning with an "underpowered" list is much more rewarding (and fun) than with a powerful army.

I plan to take my White Scars to another 40k tournament soon (did quite reasonably at Conflict London last year); this should give me a proper challenge.

However in terms of Fantasy I love my Nurgle Daemon Legion too much to abandon it. I just enjoy using the army more than any other I own or have tried. No-one will say that Nurgle Daemons are a weak army; the list can be pretty scary when used reasonably. However neither is it a tournament-dominating powerhouse like the Tzeentch list. It tends to die against SAD, any of the magic-heavy or air force armies, but to wipe the floor with most more balanced lists.

At the end of the day, if you want to win that much, take a power army. But if you want to have fun, face a challenge and make everyone happier, take the more friendly approach.

mad dog
31-07-2005, 07:31
Can a balanced army see you through a GT ?? - it really depends what you mean by see you through.

There are many very wise posts already in this thread particularly those talking about the need for some balance and redundancy, but redundancy is tough to achieve with an army lke HE where units are fragile and expensive.

There are a number of problems with GT's - especially here in UK:
You have to paint like a chimpanzee to avoid getting maximum painting marks.
There are no points awarded for army composition.
Sportsmanship is a joke - even more so in the most recent incarnation where you just tick good game or poor game. In the doubles tournament last weekend we played against a skaven pairing who were obnoxious, cheated and had an illegal army list. They got three poor game rating in their first four games, lost all their points from those games because of their illegal list, and still managed to get the maximum 30 sportsmanship points (everybody in the tournament did and almost everyone got max painting points aswell)
Balance is in the eye of the beholder aswell - for some people balance simple means thrashing all comers with equal ease.

THIS IS THE KIND OF LIST YOU CAN EXPECT TO SEE REGULARLY IN GT'S - QUOTED BY MAD DOC GROTSNIK EARLIER IN THE THREAD:
For example, in my Druchii list, I use a Dragon, Manticore, 4 Chariots, 2 Hydras and 30 Crossbows. Am still trying to shoe horn in some Harpies. Anyways. My major weakness is Magic. I have 2 dispel dice in 2,000 points. I have experimented with the Ring of Hotek with vary success. But so far, my only option is to charge the front of the units with Mages in, allocate one lot of attacks on him/her, and have the rest duff up the unit in general. And thats it. Even so, it only takes one half decent round of magic to start worrying me. Especially those ******* remains in play spells. I just can't get rid of them!

I guess you just had to field 30 crossbows Mad Doc to fulfill your minimum core requirements, lucky they dropped their cost so you could buy more gribblies. I would hate to play your army - overwhelmed by terror causing tooled up flying death in turn two, really boring and little skill.

The last time I went to a GT I qualified (just) with a balanced dwarf list, then fed up with being turned over by lists like Mad Doc's, I took a cheese laden HE army to the final. I did OK, finished around 20th, beat up some equally crappy lists and hated every minute of it.

I didn't bother last year - I didn't want to play an uber list and didn't want to play against uber lists. Conflict events are more fun.

Grand Warlord
31-07-2005, 12:38
Well... I took my balanced empire to Chicago GT and went 0 and 5 ... I needed a ******* cheese grater to even try to compete.

I'm so changing my army lol ... sooo much ******* magic it was rediculous..

If this wasn't the only way for me to play warhammer anymore it wouldn't bother me but sadly... here are my changes.

New list:

Wizard lord - level 4

BSB

Capt

Capt

24 Swordsmen

10 Swordsmen

10 Swordsmen

24 Halberds

10 Free Company

24 Halberds

10 Free Company

10 Handgunners

10 Handgunners

Great Cannon

Great Cannon

Great Cannon

and about 120 pts. to play with ... i doint think this is so bad... is it? never used a mage before.

Lord Anathir
31-07-2005, 15:41
If you didnt have a mage then your army wasnt balanced, it was slightly weak. 2 DD isnt that great. The minimum is 4DD and 1 or 2 scrolls.

\I have never gone to a GT. However, Id rather go to Conflicts or local store tourneys. I would also hate to play that dark elf terror army of doom. And I would have absolutely 0 chance if i didnt play with 9 PD.

taer
31-07-2005, 18:27
Agreed. Winning with an "underpowered" list is much more rewarding (and fun) than with a powerful army.



Indeed.

I'm taking what in my mind is a freakishly underpowered Chaos Dwarf list to an IndyGT in November, and I think every minute with it will be a blast.

Grand Warlord
31-07-2005, 19:10
If you didnt have a mage then your army wasnt balanced, it was slightly weak. 2 DD isnt that great. The minimum is 4DD and 1 or 2 scrolls.

Actually I had 3. 2 Base +1 from the Warrior Priest.

But I can understand what your saying, magic has never been that important to my local players and I had no idea it was that crazy at GTs... I will be ready next time lol

Now I have a Level 4 Mage with Dispel Scroll, Van Horstman's Speculum, and Grey Wand.