PDA

View Full Version : Battle Sisters, Space Marines, Imperial Guard and overlap.



Vet.Sister
28-01-2007, 13:17
I have a question for the imperium players out there, especially the Battle Sister players! From time to time, I mention changes/adjustments/improvements for the Battle Sisters list. (note that these changes have two things in mind, a pure Sisters list and a more competitive edge for Sisters) Now I freely admit some of my suggestions have been over-the-top ideas. I am a Battle Sisters fanboy after all....

What I'm having difficulty with is the unhelpful response of "If you want that, why don't you go play Space Marines/Imperial Guard?" Which is not at all what I want to do! I'd like a little more helpful response, like the following....

I had suggested land speeders for the Battle Sisters at one time, nothing extravagent mind you, but speeders with the obligtory Heavy Bolter and a chance to upgrade to a Multi-Melta. 99.999% of the responses were "go play SMs!", while one poster took the time to explain that Skimmers/Land Speeders were a Space Marine only thing. And it was because GW decided to make it so. Imperial Guard used to have skimmers back in the day, but they were dropped from the list and now only SMs have them. I may not like it, but I get it! Land Speeders = special thing that makes Marines unique!(in the Imperium)

OK, get ready with those helpful responses! Pretend that GW is finally ready to re-write the Ordos into one codex. (that's Witch Hunter, Daemonhunters and Death Watch) And this time they are going to put forth a more competitive pure sisters list. I.E. the Battle Sisters are going to get some new wargear and units, etc, etc, FROM the Imperium. However, this new competitive pure Sisters list won't have inducted IG or access to SMs.

My question, (drum roll please) "How much overlap is too much overlap?" More specifically, if you added stuff available to other Imperium forces, what would you add and what would you avoid? Obviously I don't want "IG in power armor" with all the tanks and what not, nor do I want "Space Marine mini-mes".
Remember! Helpful responses! (If you just can't bring yourself to be helpful, please ignore this thread)
Thank you for following the Golden Rule.

Master Jeridian
28-01-2007, 13:30
I'd have to agree with the people who respond to your ideas.

Everyone wants what another army has, and SM's have everything.
If you have Sisters Speeders, etc it just dilutes the differences between the armies- and we get Yellow SM's, Blue SM's, Girl SM's, etc.

I also think the Sisters army list is very good- it has both advantages and disadvantages. I think lists like Iron Warriors, BA, SM's etc need more downsides, rather than trying to keep the Sisters up with a WAAC arm's race.

The only changes I would do:

Different pts cost for IC's and Superiors (just like SM's and Chaos).

Reduce the cost of some items to almost worth taking- like Simulacrum's. Whilst slight pts cuts for others (Eviscerators).

Make Dominion specials weapons cost the same as Battle Sisters. They already pay for taking 4 special weapons by using up a Fast Attack choice and having to buy a transport. When I look at them at the moment all I see are a Battle Sisters squad with overpriced special options- I'll stick with Battle Sisters. 4 Flamers, 4 Melta's etc are good on paper but are overkill most of the time.

Complete rework of Repentia- nice idea, but literally the worst unit in the game IMO.

I'd drop the Armour Save completely :eek: but give them Feel No Pain. So they essentially have a 4+ Invulnerable save. This makes sense, they don't have any real armour (trying to explain a ragged cloth as a 4+ save whilst Storm Trooper must wear full body armour is a joke), but they are so innured to pain and are driven by fanatical need to repent that they will shrug off damage.
Drop the pts cost to at least 12pts, maybe less. They can't be spammed anyway, since their 0-1.

Celestians would still be the better choice even then, but at least it would give the fanboy's a half-decent unit to play with.

New stuff? I don't know. One other Heavy Support vehicle would be nice, though what role it could fill is debatable.

bertcom1
28-01-2007, 13:36
For Battle Sisters, I would like

Predator tanks, with heavy flamer or multimelta sponsons, but not lascannon sponsons. Long barrelled, 36" range twin linked multimelta as the turret weapon instead of lascannon or autocannon.

Pintle mounted (heavy?) flamers as an option for vehicles. Possibly also meltaguns.

Options for Incendiary grenades, Range 6", small blast, S4 AP5, assault 1. No cover saves.

Better Repentias.

Avoid.

Anything that doesn't have bolters, meltas or flamer weapons.
Ordnance weapons.

Helicon_One
28-01-2007, 13:45
I tend to think that diversity between different 40K army lists is something to be welcomed wherever reasonably possible, so I'd much rather see lots of unique items in each book and not so much copy & paste from Codex to Codex. So I much prefer to have Exorcists and Immolators then Predator Annihilators and Razorbacks - in fact I preferred the idea of the Exorcist when it was a cheap 11/11/10 self-propelled gun and not the current 13/11/10 Predator-level.

Saying that, there's certain things in the Imperium which are widely available to all, and in the case of Battle Sisters in particular the models already come with bolters and power armour so I'd say to stick with them. Rather than worrying alot over particular vehicle or weapon types, I'd be more focused on the way the army plays on the board - it doesn't matter too much whether an army has access to heavy bolters or you invent "XYZ-Pattern Heavy Machine Guns", if the end result is an army which operates much like another existing force.

Is that roughly what you meant?

Tim

Elcampbello
28-01-2007, 17:02
Just give us plastic sisters.

Lavadude360
28-01-2007, 17:43
Are you talking about Sisters of Battle?

Permanganate
28-01-2007, 19:15
Just give us plastic sisters.


Are you talking about Sisters of Battle?

No, he wants plastic sisters. Presumably inflatable. :evilgrin:

He means plastic SoBs. They'd be difficult; while there are now lots of Marines in robes, few of them have sleeved robes like the SoBs do. Still, they could probably try; separate arms and head, integrated torso/legs.

Icarus
28-01-2007, 20:06
I used to play pure Sisters and I think they pretty much work as they were intended, in that they are a good, but unforgiving army that requires care in its use. Having said that I would agree that they could use a bit more variety in their list. Sisters armies typically have a bunch of the basic Battle Sisters plus some Seraphim and Exoricsts. It gets a bit boring.

I agree about giving Repentias Feel No Pain, its such an obvious rule for them I can't think why they weren't given it in the first place. I might also give them some weapons options, like they can take Chainswords that give +1S and strike at initiative, or can take the Eviscerators with the bonuses and disadvantages that go with that.

I'd really like to see another Sisters Tank introduced. Immolators are not popular, whilst Exorcists are a no-brainer and everybody has at least one if not three! I'd like to see some middle ground here, maybe a variant pattern Exorcist, which fires different weapons?

Elcampbello
28-01-2007, 22:13
No, he wants plastic sisters. Presumably inflatable. :evilgrin:

Thanks. :rolleyes:


He means plastic SoBs. They'd be difficult; while there are now lots of Marines in robes, few of them have sleeved robes like the SoBs do. Still, they could probably try; separate arms and head, integrated torso/legs.

Well the current high elves have them, so it can be done.

Aundae
28-01-2007, 23:56
I personally prefer that the SOB stay metal, as metal is what I prefer in my miniatures, however that is just a personal thing with me. I do agree with the Repentia having feel no pain and that there should be some vareity with the pure SOB tanks.

Seleucus
29-01-2007, 01:23
I personally see nothing wrong with anti-grav vehicles in any imperium army, they certainly appear in fluff, driven by civilians, arbites and inquisitors (Eisenhorn and Gaunt novels).

Maybe give an inquisitor lord the option to take up to 2 Land speeders as part of his HQ slot, manned from his retinue - lord/accolyte and warrior in each, but not be able to take any other retinue if the lord is in a speeder?

Some soft top transports/trucks for IG and SoB at, say, 35pts a piece would not go amiss either - add extra armour at 5pts to turn it into a half track, both of which can get a heavy stubber. Allow them to move a bit faster than a chimera/rhino.

Seleucus

Zachariah
29-01-2007, 06:34
I think that GW should make the repressor in the new codex... but, that's just 'cause I like it. I also think they should put them in plastic for a whole host of reasons that are too long to for me to list (actually, I just wish they, and Demonhunters were cheaper and easier to convert). And, I'm in love w/ the idea of a Predator with an inferno cannon and multi-melta sponsons... Hellhound meets LR Demolisher.

Permanganate
29-01-2007, 10:37
Thanks. :rolleyes:

What, did you not need the mental image? :)


Well the current high elves have them, so it can be done.

Can you link to a picture? Some of the HE plastics are fairly ugly, and have much less complicated robes than SoBs.


I personally prefer that the SOB stay metal, as metal is what I prefer in my miniatures...

Still, metal is expensive and hard to convert. We'd probably see more Witchhunters players if they had plastics.


...and that there should be some vareity with the pure SOB tanks.

Yes. Currently, it's a no-brainer to take a lot of Exorcists in every game because they're the best long range antivehicle firepower the army has; infantry multi-meltas haven't been a really good weapon in about nine years.

Mr_Smiley
29-01-2007, 12:46
I would take the grenades off the models.
I would like to see the Immolater improved so that is has some more use.
Overall I think the SoB are pretty much fine, they just need minor tweaking.

Hellebore
29-01-2007, 12:52
I would like battlesisters to be 12 points each. A 1 point difference between a stormtrooper and a sister is no difference at all.

Hellebore

Master Jeridian
29-01-2007, 13:00
Yes. Currently, it's a no-brainer to take a lot of Exorcists in every game because they're the best long range antivehicle firepower the army has

Correction- they're the only long range anti-tank firepower in the army.

Multi-melta's for one aren't that long range, and they have been overpriced, half range missile launchers without the frag option for years.

Imladrith
29-01-2007, 13:20
The sisters work quite ok if you want to play an all sister list. The effectiveness of your army drops dramatically when you want to add fluff to the list by also chosing an inquisitor... Personally I love inquisitors, both their fluff and the models. I therefore always use them, even when I know its makes my list less tournament-worthy..

The change I would like to get in some future update of the codex is an improvement of the inquisitor's retinue. At the moment you can choose to go either shooty or assaulty, but anything better than heavy bolters can take care of my retinue pretty fast, while the assaulty retinue can make their stand in combat, but they first need to get there and the only reasonable method to achieve this is by buying them a Landraider...

Something they should not remove from the codex is the ability to get inducted marines or IG, because this is one of the things that makes the inquisition armies really special!

Imladrith.

Voodoo Boyz
29-01-2007, 13:23
Exorcist missiles should be 3 or 4 shots, no more D6 crap. Make the missiles S9 AP1, probably 3 Shots max. Keep the tank cheap so points costs can stay the same as now.

A Cannoness should be 0-1, with a Palatine option available so you can run one Cannoness and one Palatine in the same army but not two Cannoni.

The 2+ Save Cloak should also be 0-1. Having two Jump Pack 2+ Inv save cannonesses that can eventually die and give back another 4 total faith to the army is just a bit much.

Sisters should probably go up to 12 Points a pop, they're currently undercosted by a ton. The 3+ save and Faith is awesome.

The Book of St. Lucious needs to go up in cost, as it is now they're such a no brainer choice to give to every VSS and IC, especially at 5 points a pop.

Accroflagellents need a ton o work. I've no idea how to fix them but a unit that kills itself is a bad idea in general.

Repentia need some work as well. Either make the 4+ Save invulnerable or give them the option to always fleet.

Captain Micha
29-01-2007, 13:38
I have no idea what they need. but I do feel they need to have their units be more useful all over the board. I do not feel sisters are undercost. hardened vets in an ig army with hardened fighters, carapace armor come out to like 11 pts a pop. which is not all that diff from a sister. considering that vets can infiltrate.

Voodoo Boyz
29-01-2007, 13:48
I have no idea what they need. but I do feel they need to have their units be more useful all over the board. I do not feel sisters are undercost. hardened vets in an ig army with hardened fighters, carapace armor come out to like 11 pts a pop. which is not all that diff from a sister. considering that vets can infiltrate.

Not that different? 3+ Save is so much better than a 4+ Save it's ridiculous. Not to mention the Sisters are LD9, and with a 5+ piece of war gear get an unmodifiable LD9. The sisters have Bolters, not hellguns or Lasguns, and can have faith which means that they can get AP1 shots or make their 3+ Save invulnerable when they get low enough numbers.

So no, don't sit there and tell me that sisters aren't undercosted at 11 Points a model. They're godly compared to 10 point storm troopers, and even at 12 points a pop they're still a no brainer to take over storm troopers.

Master Jeridian
29-01-2007, 13:49
Exorcist missiles should be 3 or 4 shots, no more D6 crap. Make the missiles S9 AP1, probably 3 Shots max. Keep the tank cheap so points costs can stay the same as now.

I fear this is the route they will take- Eldar random shot weapons have all become set numbers. Just seems boring to me- let's remove all random elements and play chess/ rock.paper.scissors kind of thing.

I may fire 6 shots, I may fire 1. Great fun.


A Cannoness should be 0-1, with a Palatine option available so you can run one Cannoness and one Palatine in the same army but not two Cannoni.

Have to agree, on the condition that the Palatine is actually a viable option.

For +10 pts (from Palatine to Canoness) I can get +1 Wound, +1 Attack, +1Ld, +1 Faith. It's just too good to pass up- making the Palatine awful in comparison.


The 2+ Save Cloak should also be 0-1. Having two Jump Pack 2+ Inv save cannonesses that can eventually die and give back another 4 total faith to the army is just a bit much.


Aye, the idea of naming Wargear items as 'The Beer Glass of St. Drunk' is cool but it gives the illusion that there is only 1 in existence. Should artificer armour/ Daemonic armour be 0-1?
As for 2+ Invulnerable- god forbid, there should be anything powerful in a Sisters army. To get that T 3 WS 4 I 1 Str 6 character Sisters are denied plasmaguns, heavy weapons, squads smaller than 10, Infiltrate, Deep Strike, power fists, the list goes on.


Sisters should probably go up to 12 Points a pop, they're currently undercosted by a ton. The 3+ save and Faith is awesome.

You want them to be even more rare than they are now?
It's not really possible to compare one troop type with another, without looking at the context- the army list that it is in. Storm Troopers in a Guard army can Infiltrate/Deep Strike for the same cost, carry Plasmaguns, have smaller squad sizes, and come from an army with ample amounts of long-range firepower and battle tanks.

Storm Troopers to Battle Sisters is not a clean cut comparison.

Inquisitorial Storm Troopers to Battle Sisters is a more sticky issue. The IST are there for those who want an Inquisition army, not a pure Sisters army. They still have smaller squad size (so can fit more squads in) and plasmaguns (don't underestimate plasmaguns).


The Book of St. Lucious needs to go up in cost, as it is now they're such a no brainer choice to give to every VSS and IC, especially at 5 points a pop.
I suppose, I'd argue for them to be 10pts and/or Heroines only.

Captain Micha
29-01-2007, 14:14
don't forget they get melta guns too and melta bombs. *L* storm troopers pt costs come from their sheer amount of options. the more options a unit has the higher its point cost is going to be. also don't forget free krak and frag grenades. which are +1 a mini and +2 respectivly.

also they get chimeras to run around in. which the last time I checked was 100000 times better than a rhino

also I was comparing them to kitted out hardened veterans in Ig. why? cause you can make ws4 hardened vets with carapace. why the worse save ? cause they can infiltrate have tons more weapons options. etc etc

Voodoo Boyz
29-01-2007, 14:16
I fear this is the route they will take- Eldar random shot weapons have all become set numbers. Just seems boring to me- let's remove all random elements and play chess/ rock.paper.scissors kind of thing.

I may fire 6 shots, I may fire 1. Great fun.


No, the idea is that 6 Shots with S8 Ap1 is just sick, heck anything over 3 is sick, against anything. Too often a roll of a 6 on an Exorcist volly can spell the end of a game by taking out way more than it should (Carnifex's, entire Terminator squads, most of a tactical/devistator squad, anything really). The possibility of over 3 shots means that the tank can be great at killing any decent amount of troops, from IG to Orks to Terminators.

3 Shots at S9 AP1 makes it a great Tank that can move and fire to full effect and makes it better at killing the things it's supposed to (Tanks) and less so than at killing things that it shouldn't (infantry).



Have to agree, on the condition that the Palatine is actually a viable option.

For +10 pts (from Palatine to Canoness) I can get +1 Wound, +1 Attack, +1Ld, +1 Faith. It's just too good to pass up- making the Palatine awful in comparison.

Aye, the idea of naming Wargear items as 'The Beer Glass of St. Drunk' is cool but it gives the illusion that there is only 1 in existence. Should artificer armour/ Daemonic armour be 0-1?
As for 2+ Invulnerable- god forbid, there should be anything powerful in a Sisters army. To get that T 3 WS 4 I 1 Str 6 character Sisters are denied plasmaguns, heavy weapons, squads smaller than 10, Infiltrate, Deep Strike, power fists, the list goes on.


Well I won't argue that the Cannoness is a no brainier option over the Palatine, but that's because the Cannoness is so damned good for her points. My main thing is that your stock Cannoness (2+ Inv Save, Jump Pack, Evicerator or Blessed Power Weapon) is way too good, especially for the cheap points she costs. 2+ Invulnerable after passing a LD10 Test? I'm sorry but my more expensive Ork warboss shouldn't be afraid of charging a Cannoness. In an army that's supposed to be fragile but have powerful shooting she sure lends better CC support than my Close Combat Army's HQ's.

Not only this, but you get the fact that she adds 2 Faith to the army and another 2 when she bites it. The fact that you can have two of these things running around points to the fact that it should go away.

The thing that does it for me is the 2+ Invulnerable. No invulnerable that good should be so easy to get. 3+ should be the max really.

As for the one thing being really good for the sake of giving up things like Plasmaguns, infiltrate, or Deepstrike, you've got to be kidding me.

Ok so you're T3, whoopty do you're 2+ Invulnerable after a LD10 test that can't be modified in any way. Toughness makes no bloody difference when you have that kind of defense.

I1 also means nothing because of the 2+ Invulnerable, when you can't be killed at a higher initiative you're not going to care if you hit last. And S6 ignore armor and 2D6 versus vehicles means you're perfectly fine against anything in the game bar a few outliers. I'm sorry, but when you have this HQ who can plow through far more than her paltry points cost and is ridiculously easy to use in the context of the army (Mech Sisters being the only variant worth fielding at a tournament), but no. I mean seriously when there are HQ's and units of a close combat army that are afraid of your puny little HQ character in a shooty/fragile themed army, there's a ******* problem.

You don't need Plasmaguns, you have Divine Guidance which is much better than a plasmagun is any day of the week.

You don't need Deepstrike or Infiltrate because Rhinos are a much better option for your army than either of those things. However I'd honestly be perfectly fine with something like Celestines in Elite getting Deepstrike or Infiltrate, it'd be a lot better to define them as a unit than what they have now.



You want them to be even more rare than they are now?
It's not really possible to compare one troop type with another, without looking at the context- the army list that it is in. Storm Troopers in a Guard army can Infiltrate/Deep Strike for the same cost, carry Plasmaguns, have smaller squad sizes, and come from an army with ample amounts of long-range firepower and battle tanks.

Storm Troopers to Battle Sisters is not a clean cut comparison.

Inquisitorial Storm Troopers to Battle Sisters is a more sticky issue. The IST are there for those who want an Inquisition army, not a pure Sisters army. They still have smaller squad size (so can fit more squads in) and plasmaguns (don't underestimate plasmaguns).

I was comparing them to IST's, and someone ELSE compared them to IG vets.

They're a NO BRAINER when compared to just about anything else. Smaller Squad size sucks when you can't take a heavy weapon (which is why no one uses the IST's other than a tiny unit with two special weapons that goes out and dies, and even then that's only for Demon Hunter armies, since the Sisters do that job a hell of a lot better than the IST's for a marginal increase in cost.

The reason they're rare now is because they're ******* expensive. Their rules make for a very competitive army in Mech Sisters.



I suppose, I'd argue for them to be 10pts and/or Heroines only.

I'd go with heroines only but that is a big nerf. One of the things that makes Sisters so good is the fact that they're so resilient for their points costs, and they're one of the few armies that are cheap while still able to take a Power Fist Equivalent (eviserator). That makes things like Seraphim so good in assault. They really don't care if they lose because they'll test on a unmodifiable LD9, run away, and then divine guidance/charge you again.

Master Jeridian
29-01-2007, 14:42
No, the idea is that 6 Shots with S8 Ap1 is just sick, heck anything over 3 is sick, against anything. Too often a roll of a 6 on an Exorcist volly can spell the end of a game by taking out way more than it should (Carnifex's, entire Terminator squads, most of a tactical/devistator squad, anything really). The possibility of over 3 shots means that the tank can be great at killing any decent amount of troops, from IG to Orks to Terminators.

And I could roll 1 shot all game making the Exorcist useless. If we only look at the best possible outcome then of course every army and unit is too cheap, overpowered.


Well I won't argue that the Cannoness is a no brainier option over the Palatine, but that's because the Cannoness is so damned good for her points. My main thing is that your stock Cannoness (2+ Inv Save, Jump Pack, Evicerator or Blessed Power Weapon) is way too good, especially for the cheap points she costs. 2+ Invulnerable after passing a LD10 Test? I'm sorry but my more expensive Ork warboss shouldn't be afraid of charging a Cannoness. In an army that's supposed to be fragile but have powerful shooting she sure lends better CC support than my Close Combat Army's HQ's.

Sorry, but every army has some powerful elements (well, except Orks of course). Daemon Princes, bling Marine Captains, Railheads, etc.

Take the Canoness off the Sisters and you essentially have a poor man's Space Marines.


As for the one thing being really good for the sake of giving up things like Plasmaguns, infiltrate, or Deepstrike, you've got to be kidding me.

Ok so you're T3, whoopty do you're 2+ Invulnerable after a LD10 test that can't be modified in any way. Toughness makes no bloody difference when you have that kind of defense.

I was taking you seriously until this point, but now it does seem like someone who's been stung by a better Sisters opponent.

I didn't know my entire army get's 2+ Invulnerable saves on Ld 10, all the time....
Oh wait, they don't- just 1 maybe 2 models, and only as long as the Faith points last (starting with 8 average for the whole army).
And you fail that 2+ save once (and it happens all the time) and most often (Str 6 or higher) the Canoness goes squish and you've just lost 130+pts.


I mean seriously when there are HQ's and units of a close combat army that are afraid of your puny little HQ character in a shooty/fragile themed army, there's a ******* problem.


I'm sorry, where in the design spec are they meant to be fragile? Their girls- that's where the stereotype ends.

I didn't know my army was supposed to be inferior to Space Marines, Chaos, etc.


You don't need Plasmaguns, you have Divine Guidance which is much better than a plasmagun is any day of the week.

Your making it hard for me not to consider this as a whine. Even the most brief skim of the Witch Hunters book will show that Divine Guidance is Ap 1 only on a 6, can only be reliably cast on a unit of 10+ models, burns into that Faith (that your 2 Canoness are getting their 2+ Invulnerable from).

Plasma will always be AP 2, usually on 2+ to wound.


You don't need Deepstrike or Infiltrate because Rhinos are a much better option for your army than either of those things. However I'd honestly be perfectly fine with something like Celestines in Elite getting Deepstrike or Infiltrate, it'd be a lot better to define them as a unit than what they have now.

Are you serious? Then clearly SM's and Chaos don't need it, IG don't need it. If Rhino's are such brilliant 'options' then give the Sisters other options and see how they 'vote'.

I'll cut you some slack, as I'm guessing you play Orks who are even more underpowered/need of rework. And Sisters are a nemesis army of Orks- lots of flamers, lots of bolters, lots of mobility.


They're a NO BRAINER when compared to just about anything else. Smaller Squad size sucks when you can't take a heavy weapon (which is why no one uses the IST's other than a tiny unit with two special weapons that goes out and dies, and even then that's only for Demon Hunter armies, since the Sisters do that job a hell of a lot better than the IST's for a marginal increase in cost.

Battle Sisters can take Heavy Weapons now? Please read the Witch Hunters Codex.


I'd go with heroines only but that is a big nerf.

Not that big TBH. One of my pet hates is that St.Lucius book seems to be mass produced, surely such a good read could be handed to every Imperial soldier for Ld immunity...


while still able to take a Power Fist Equivalent (eviserator)

Please read the Witch Hunters Codex before such wild accusations.

Power Fist- One-handed, Str 8, 15pts
Eviscerator- Two-handed, Str 6 25pts

Equivalent usually means equal, clearly not the case.


In conclusion,
The Sisters seem to suffer from a lack of opponent knowledge- they all have 2+ Inv saves, all Divine Guide all the time, etc, etc. Myth is always more powerful than truth.

Sorry but if they are as awesome as you state then they'd be regulars in the top ranks of tournaments- cost or not (9 Oblits is costly too).

Sureshot05
29-01-2007, 14:53
I think a new vehicle is all the sisters really need, something like the Reliquary (Sp?) or Cauldron of Blood maybe? Personally, I've found the army as it is a quite balanced force and enjoy playing against them (one of my most regular opponents). I think maybe having a +1 point cost per model when included in a mixed force might help balance them out in the storm trooper debate, but at the moment I am waiting on Codex Ordos to see how they handle that.

My suggestion:

Pure DH/ WH/SoB/SM/IG forces are priced according to their codex, if you wish to field a mixed force (led by an Inquisitor) then each unit must be +2 points per infantry model and +20 pts per vehicle. It may allow for more interesting themed armies, but reduce the dangers of mixed lists

Still, Codex Ordos is a long way off so we'll have to wait.

bertcom1
29-01-2007, 15:27
One other Heavy Support vehicle would be nice, though what role it could fill is debatable.


I'd really like to see another Sisters Tank introduced. Immolators are not popular, whilst Exorcists are a no-brainer and everybody has at least one if not three! I'd like to see some middle ground here, maybe a variant pattern Exorcist, which fires different weapons?


I do agree that there should be some variety with the pure SOB tanks.


I think that GW should make the repressor in the new codex And, I'm in love w/ the idea of a Predator with an inferno cannon and multi-melta sponsons... Hellhound meets LR Demolisher.


I think a new vehicle is all the sisters really need, something like the Reliquary (Sp?) or Cauldron of Blood maybe?


So, what did you all think of my idea?

A Predator type vehicle, Armour 13/11/10, with a turret twin linked 36" range multimelta, and heavy flamer or multimelta sponsons? I liked it so much I am starting building one.

Exorcist is long range fire support, the Predator type would be close range fire support. Immolators are fast short range support units.

Repressors become an option.

Pintle flamers become an option instead of pintle storm bolters.

Slaaneshi Slave
29-01-2007, 15:55
@Bertcom1:

I would be all in favour if the turret multimelta got its small blast template back.

Minister
29-01-2007, 16:02
My two changes would be the replacment of the current Inquisitorial Stormtroopers entry with the one from the Imperial Guard codex (slight changes to points and the ability to take deep strike/infiltrate, but it makes them usable at least) and a more expensive Cannoness. Possibly reenstate the heavy weapons to the main infantry squads too, to give the option of a static gunline rather than an advancing one.

Voodoo Boyz
29-01-2007, 16:03
Either you're misreading me intentionally or I just came off wrong (which can happen as I'm typing fast when I have some down time).


And I could roll 1 shot all game making the Exorcist useless. If we only look at the best possible outcome then of course every army and unit is too cheap, overpowered.

Yes you can roll poor all game, but when used on average (and when your opponent takes 2 or 3 Exorcists) you will get good rolls and you will eliminate threats. Point in fact, if you can roll a 4+ on the exorcist (50/50 shot, Per Tank, when there's normally 2 or 3 on a normal 1500-1850 game), then you're doing very well as far as shooting at infantry squads (especially MEQ's). This should be fixed.



Sorry, but every army has some powerful elements (well, except Orks of course). Daemon Princes, bling Marine Captains, Railheads, etc.

Take the Canoness off the Sisters and you essentially have a poor man's Space Marines.

Bling Captains aren't the SM's powerful element, that'd be Libby's. Fact is that the Cannoness can stand up in CC to a Space Marine HQ in CC and that HQ will cost more points than the Cannoness. In fact if you're lucky the Cannoness can even stand up to a Demon Prince pretty well if you burn the faith for it (assuming they're not statured with the special weapon that ignores INV saves).

One cannoness running around with that crap, OK, really good, probably needs a bump in points costs, but fine.

TWO running around with that kind of power AND giving you +2 Faith to start and when they bite it - NO.


I was taking you seriously until this point, but now it does seem like someone who's been stung by a better Sisters opponent. I've played against sisters a ton (my best friend plays them, we play nearly weekly). I've won as much as I've lost and I know how to use them quite well because we've played so much (and we've done army swaps). I play Marines and Orks. I've won plenty of times with both armies (Normal Orks vs Sisters, BAD - Kult of Speed or Deathskullz vs. Sisters, BAD FOR THE GIRLS).

Thing is, I know what is fair for effectiveness and I know what's stupidly overpowered/undercosted.


I didn't know my entire army get's 2+ Invulnerable saves on Ld 10, all the time....
Oh wait, they don't- just 1 maybe 2 models, and only as long as the Faith points last (starting with 8 average for the whole army).

Either you're reading me wrong or being ignorant. Of course only the Cannoness gets the Inv save after taking her LD10 Test, and you'll only need the faith for a few turns as the Cannoness will roughly take about 2 Rounds of Combat with a "big nasty" to end things, meaning faith usage is kept to a minimum. In addition you can "kenny" for more faith when needed by killing a VSS from a normal Sisters unit who likely doesn't need to be faithful anymore (ie when they're in an assault they can't win and won't be shooting anymore).

Running out of faith is a problem if your opponent can force it to happen, but if you know how to run your Sisters keeping faith where you need it isn't a problem.



And you fail that 2+ save once (and it happens all the time) and most often (Str 6 or higher) the Canoness goes squish and you've just lost 130+pts.

Cannoness's run arount 115 Points: Cannoness, Jump Pack, Eviserator, Cloak, Book

130 Points is I'm guessing her with a Master Crafted Eviserator since she'll only get 4 Attacks on the Charge.


I'm sorry, where in the design spec are they meant to be fragile? Their girls- that's where the stereotype ends.

I didn't know my army was supposed to be inferior to Space Marines, Chaos, etc.

Well when you cost 3-4 points per model less than the Space Marines (Chaos and Loyalist) you should be inferior on a model by model basis. Normally when things cost that kind of points per model they're pretty fragile, Sisters on the other hand AREN'T fragile because of the 3+ Save.

With the ability to go invulnerable when you need it, you become way more resilient than models who cost a lot more.



Your making it hard for me not to consider this as a whine. Even the most brief skim of the Witch Hunters book will show that Divine Guidance is Ap 1 only on a 6, can only be reliably cast on a unit of 10+ models, burns into that Faith (that your 2 Canoness are getting their 2+ Invulnerable from).

Uh huh, and since your normal troop unit of Sisters comes with 10 as the minimum unit size (which you complain about, oddly) and can take a rhino, and dual flamers (or likely a Melta & Heavy Flamer), it makes them perfect for doing a "rhino rush" where they pop out of the Rhino, bust out the divine guidance with a lot of hits due to the flame template and 16 bolter Shots being fired at BS4. This will generally result in more than 2 AP1 hits, which is the max a Plasmagun can do at close range. And the Plasma can backfire.

So what if the plasma wounds on a two, you really only care about the 6's to wound anyway when divine guidance is active and you'll wound almost anything in the game on that, but now it's AP1. If I could give my Space Marine squad Divine Guidance and forsake plasmaguns, I'd do it.


Are you serious? Then clearly SM's and Chaos don't need it, IG don't need it. If Rhino's are such brilliant 'options' then give the Sisters other options and see how they 'vote'.

Battle Sisters can take Heavy Weapons now? Please read the Witch Hunters Codex.


Deepstrike isn't a good option for sisters since they need to be within 12" to do their damage (Divine Guidance Rapid Fire). Deepstriking that close is too risky, though I could see why you'd want it: Dominion Squads with 4 Flamers, minned out would be dirt cheap and very effective if they got close enough. There's a reason you don't have it.

And as stated I wouldn't have a problem with Sister's Celestine Squads getting this.

MY Point is that you're complaining about Sisters not getting small squad sizes and that IST's having small squad sizes is an advantage over sisters. MY point is that having a small squad size isn't a real advantage if you can't take heavy weapons, which IST's can't. SISTERS want squads of 10, so they can fit into Rhinos, so they can get close and rapid fire/flame template with Divine Guidance.

THAT's the point I'm making, for the context of how your army damages 80% of it's likely opponents you're better off in Rhinos.



Please read the Witch Hunters Codex before such wild accusations.

Power Fist- One-handed, Str 8, 15pts
Eviscerator- Two-handed, Str 6 25pts

Equivalent usually means equal, clearly not the case.

It's equivalent in that it will wound most units on a 2+ and ignore armor saves after striking last.

You are Cheap (11 Points)
You are Resilient (3+ Save)
You can take Decent CC Weapons (Eviserator)

There's a reason IG can't take Eviserators or Power Fists in line squads, it'd be too good because their'd be so many of them. Sure you pay more for your Eviserator but it's better against Vehicles AND you're cheaper as a basic unit.

I don't think Eviserators should be taken away, they're fine as they are but being so cheap and being able to become that potent in assault with an eviserator (admittedly it's only really useful on Seraphim and Cannoness's) combined with your great resiliencey and shooting potential makes you pretty deadly in any phase of the game for less points than equivalent armies.



In conclusion,
The Sisters seem to suffer from a lack of opponent knowledge- they all have 2+ Inv saves, all Divine Guide all the time, etc, etc. Myth is always more powerful than truth.

You've misread me fine, but yes cheesed out Sisters lists do really well because the opponent won't know most of their rules or tricks untill after playing against them for a long while. Even still they're a tough nut to crack and the average Sisters list that consists of nothing but Mounted Sisters Squads, Seraphim, Cannoness's and Exorcists (ie Mech Sisters) is a very poweful army that could probably use some repointing and some restricting (a lot like Marines could use too).


Sorry but if they are as awesome as you state then they'd be regulars in the top ranks of tournaments- cost or not (9 Oblits is costly too).

By that logic then the Loyalist Marines aren't that awesome since I haven't seen them win too many top tournaments either, it's mostly Chaos or Eldar.

I think we can both agree that Loyalist Marines could definitely use with some toning down and some re-pointing.

Slaaneshi Slave
29-01-2007, 16:20
Battle Sisters are not fragile enough? Lets compare them to Marine Scouts shall we...

A unit of scouts is hit by a volley of bolter fire, 10 hit, 5 wound, 2.5 die.

A unit of Battle Sisters is hit by a volley of bolter fire, 10 hit, 6.6 wound, 2.2 die. Not a lot of difference.

Now we look at the other differences. Scouts have Ld 10, may use heavy weapons, are T4, can infiltrate, use snipers, are great in assault, have three standard weapon options (bolter, shotgun, combat weapons).

All that for only 20 points extra a squad - which you make up for by only paying 15 points for a powerfist, instead of 25 for an evisorator. Oh, and the vet who uses that powerfist gets 2 attacks more than a Vet sister.

Voodoo Boyz
29-01-2007, 16:30
Battle Sisters are not fragile enough? Lets compare them to Marine Scouts shall we...

A unit of scouts is hit by a volley of bolter fire, 10 hit, 5 wound, 2.5 die.

A unit of Battle Sisters is hit by a volley of bolter fire, 10 hit, 6.6 wound, 2.2 die. Not a lot of difference.

Now we look at the other differences. Scouts have Ld 10, may use heavy weapons, are T4, can infiltrate, use snipers, are great in assault, have three standard weapon options (bolter, shotgun, combat weapons).

All that for only 20 points extra a squad - which you make up for by only paying 15 points for a powerfist, instead of 25 for an evisorator. Oh, and the vet who uses that powerfist gets 2 attacks more than a Vet sister.

Um What?

First off the Scouts Cost more and suffer more wounds than the Sisters.

Or are you going to argue with me that SV isn't a much more important stat than T? Obviously in this case (which involves the most common standard issue gun in the game), the Sisters are cheaper by 2 Points per Model and suffer less casualties.

The Scouts will not have LD10, the scouts will have LD8 base or 9 with a Veteran, same as with the sisters. And the sisters can take a piece of wargear for 5 points that makes them LD9 unmodifiable.

Sure the scouts can take heavy weapons but they don't have special weapons. They have other options but they cost a lot of points (Snipers). They also don't generate faith like the sisters do and thus their shooting (at close range) isn't as good as the girls.

Yes the powerfist gets more attacks but it costs more points overall (counting weapon costs & squad upgrades) and the squad is less resilient overall than a comparable squad of sisters. And the Sisters are far more powerful in shooting when up close and can give more faith to the army when the Veteran bites it.

So how is it that your squad of sisters costs less and is overall more resilient than the Scouts?

Slaaneshi Slave
29-01-2007, 16:50
The squad of sisters costs a lot more though, you forgot to add the cost of the compulsary Rhino. Without a Rhino, they are next to useless. Once the scouts are in combat, they take a lot less casualties than the battle sisters (higher WS, S, T, I, LD, better weapons, better veterans), and they will get a first or second turn charge.

Scouts are LD 10, when was the last time you saw a marine force larger than a picnic leave the fortress without dragging the chapter master along?

205 points for 10 mounted sisters, w/ flamer, heavy flamer, and vet w/ combi flamer (or Brazier) and a book. More if you want evisorators. This means in a 1,000 point game you end up taking 2, usually without Rhinos and with less effective weapons options.

Without a rhino, chances are that unit will never kill anybody with Divine Guidence.

158 points for 10 CCW scouts with a vet w/ power fist. This is a squad which is cheap enough to throw away and will cause havoc in every game.

As a pure SoB and a Marine player, I would much rather be able to field scout squads as my main infantry in my SOB army.

Voodoo Boyz
29-01-2007, 17:12
The squad of sisters costs a lot more though, you forgot to add the cost of the compulsary Rhino. Without a Rhino, they are next to useless. Once the scouts are in combat, they take a lot less casualties than the battle sisters (higher WS, S, T, I, LD, better weapons, better veterans), and they will get a first or second turn charge.

Scouts are LD 10, when was the last time you saw a marine force larger than a picnic leave the fortress without dragging the chapter master along?

205 points for 10 mounted sisters, w/ flamer, heavy flamer, and vet w/ combi flamer (or Brazier) and a book. More if you want evisorators. This means in a 1,000 point game you end up taking 2, usually without Rhinos and with less effective weapons options.

Without a rhino, chances are that unit will never kill anybody with Divine Guidence.

158 points for 10 CCW scouts with a vet w/ power fist. This is a squad which is cheap enough to throw away and will cause havoc in every game.

As a pure SoB and a Marine player, I would much rather be able to field scout squads as my main infantry in my SOB army.

Ok, add the cost of a Rhino for the sisters and add the cost of a Master Commander to the Scouts.

You're comparing apples to oranges. They do two very different things. Give the Sister squad a Rhino and infiltrate the Scouts with BP+CCW and PF Sarge, see which one lives longer. The sisters will drive up and destroy the scouts in one turn.

Both serve completely different purposes in their respective armies and the sisters can do more damage, take less work to do it, and are more resilient to boot.

The stock Sisters Squad is 10 Girls, Rhino (EA+Smoke) Melta, heavy flamer, Vet with Book. That's it, cut throat on points and is highly effective when taken in large amounts (which you can and will do in 1500 and 1850 points).

Look man, I'm not saying Sisters are this ungodly brokenly powerful army, but there are some things that need to be toned down (like most armies) this includes:

The Exorcist
The Cannoness

The basic sister squad is great at what it does and is very under costed, especially compared to other options in the list and especially compared to what other armies get for 11 points/model.

This goes off the fact that Sisters have great stats where it counts most of the time and crappy stats where they don't care.

Sure they have T3, but they get a 3+ save, which as you pointed out, is better than T4 with a 4+ save. Do the math versus an AP4 weapon and you'll see how bad it gets. VS most AP3 weapons both die about as easily, and AP4 weapons are far more common.

Sure they're WS3 & S3, but they're BS4 and Have Bolters, with divine guidance. If they're in combat that means you flubbed your rolls or made a mistake, generally the plan for Sisters is to pop out of a Rhino and divine guidance something to death.

You get the benefits for having crappy stats in places (lower points) but at the same time get to ensure that most of the time you never have to worry about your bad stats. That's what makes you under costed.

Slaaneshi Slave
29-01-2007, 17:24
A SoB army has one ranged anti-tank weapon - an Exorcist Launcher, and one melee unit (worth noting) - the Canoness.

We have Seraphim, who I agree are game makers or breakers, but we pay through the nose for them.

A Pred Annhilator gets 3 shots every turn (so long as its standing still), and a Exorcist gets 3.5 average, so its not that much more. The Pred also has higher Str, so is better at taking down enemy armour. If you ask me, the Exorcist is fine, it can be ungodly powerful, but it can also be almost worthless all game.

A single canoness is fine. They should be 0-1 though, with the Palatine as an option for a second HQ.

I don't believe basic battle sisters are undercosted, when you factor in the cost of the Rhino (+58 pts) and its weaknesses, and the fact that you need to saturate the table with armoured shells to make them worth taking.

Icarus
29-01-2007, 17:37
Look man, I'm not saying Sisters are this ungodly brokenly powerful army, but there are some things that need to be toned down (like most armies) this includes:

The Exorcist
The Cannoness

Ok, I don't see whats wrong with the Exorcist. Its good but not great. The randomness of the weapon keeps things interesting.

The Cannoness does not need toning down! Shes a really average IC. Yes, she has that 2+ Invulnerable, but she has very little damage output. She can kill off a couple of marines a turn generally. I'd rather have less of a save and more damage capability.



The basic sister squad is great at what it does and is very under costed

By great at what it does I assume you mean short-ranged firefights, and yes this is where the Battle Sister really shines. However, undercosted? How? In terms of effectiveness a Sister is halfway between a guardsmen (which she has the stats of) and a space marine (which she has the equipment of). 11 pts seems just right to me!

I would also challenge this idea that Sisters are great at this role. I'd say they are good, but not great. A Sisters unit does not have the firepower to deal with more than a few marines a turn, and then they will get immediately counter-charged. This is why so many Sisters players favour Mechanised lists, because the only way to take down 10 Marines is with the combined firepower of 30-40 Sisters!




This goes off the fact that Sisters have great stats where it counts most of the time and crappy stats where they don't care.

Great stats? Have you looked at their stats at all? Sisters are very average, as said before, the only thing they are good at is short-ranged firefights.


You get the benefits for having crappy stats in places (lower points) but at the same time get to ensure that most of the time you never have to worry about your bad stats. That's what makes you under costed.

What do you mean we never have to worry about our bad stats? I worry about it every time my Sisters end up in combat, which is a lot because they rely on short-ranged firepower and therefore end up getting assaulted a lot.

My personal view is that Sisters are just fine as they are. They're not amazing but they work well as mobile short-ranged firepower. What I think is lacking is some suitably diverse options to enhance an army with a backbone of Sisters. Right now half the units are Sisters-by-another-name, like Dominions who get to take 2 more weapons at a high cost, or Celestians who are mostly the same except for a close-combat rule which is dumb because Sisters are not made for close-combat. We just need some diversity. Fixing Repentia, adding in a new tank, and maybe introducing another unit type or two would go such a long way to improving the list.

Voodoo Boyz
29-01-2007, 17:46
A SoB army has one ranged anti-tank weapon - an Exorcist Launcher, and one melee unit (worth noting) - the Canoness.

Yeah, I'm not saying that you shouldn't have other options, but you have the 3rd Ed Eldar Problem. What you have either sucks or is too good/undercosted.


We have Seraphim, who I agree are game makers or breakers, but we pay through the nose for them.

You pay the same as me for my assault marines, but get Hit and Run, WS4, I4 (makes a big difference),a free Imagnifier for the squad w/ the Vet (who is near mandatory), and frags. That's hardly paying through the nose. With the eviserator and the combination of flamers and divine guidance (which you get a lot more with your imagnifier) and the ability to go invulnerable, have an unmodifiable LD9, and then hit and run away in your opponents turn - makes for an awesome unit. There's a reason they're one of the FOUR whole units that make up most Mech Sisters armies.


A Pred Annhilator gets 3 shots every turn (so long as its standing still), and a Exorcist gets 3.5 average, so its not that much more. The Pred also has higher Str, so is better at taking down enemy armour. If you ask me, the Exorcist is fine, it can be ungodly powerful, but it can also be almost worthless all game.

That's the point though. The Exorcist can move and fire, the exorcist can get up to 6 shots. Heck if you roll a 3+ you're getting a great value for the points. The problem is when you have 3 of them they start decimating things that the Pred can't (terminator squads, whole tactical/dev/assault squads), everything. It's THAT good. I've heard it described by tournament sisters players as the "only non-faith generating unit worth taking".

3 Shots, S9 AP1 - It's better versus tanks than it is now but less so against troops which is what I think is the problem with it currently. And I say keep the points the same. I think that's very fair.


A single canoness is fine. They should be 0-1 though, with the Palatine as an option for a second HQ.

That was exactly my proposed "fix". ;)


I don't believe basic battle sisters are undercosted, when you factor in the cost of the Rhino (+58 pts) and its weaknesses, and the fact that you need to saturate the table with armoured shells to make them worth taking.

So they're not as good as a min/maxed space marine squad with a heavy weapon. But when it comes to troops that don't have a heavy weapon (which I run a lot in my fluffy Ultramarine armies, see the sig) a Rhino is mandatory anyway. For your Save, Gun, LD, and Special Abilities, you are VERY undercosted compared to units in your own codex, and even more so against units from other Dex's.

Voodoo Boyz
29-01-2007, 17:57
If you can get 8 Marines under a Flame Template w/ a Heavy Flamer, have a Meltagun, and 8 Sisters w/ Bolters, you can kill 6 MEQ's with one divine guidance volley. That's a LOT of firepower. Assuming it was a 10 man squad (HAH, yeah right), 4 Marines will hold up 10 Sisters for a while, but you can follow this up with Seraphim or a Cannoness for support.

I obviously did read your stats (I've used the ******* army a bunch of times, and done well with it I might add) since I gave a breakdown of what was great and what wasn't, and why what isn't that great doesn't matter a whole lot when used properly.

Mech Sisters are very good army wise. They will lose on terrain sparse boards against your average Las/Plas shooty army of doom, but that doesn't change the fact that they have some undercosted and overperforming units.

Slaaneshi Slave
29-01-2007, 18:01
When was the last time you saw an enemy incompetent enough to bunch his units up against a SoB list? Thats the same as walking your 10 terminators slowly towards a Demolisher whilst in "Hold Hands" formation.

Yes, Mech Sisters are a competetive list, no, they are not at all overpowered. If you lose a Exorcist you are screwed, if a couple of your Rhinos even get HIT, let alone destroyed, you are screwed.

They are an army which shines if all goes perfectly, if it doesn't go perfectly we die, and we die fast.

Captain Micha
29-01-2007, 18:29
trust me. sisters DO NOT have average stats.. 4 and 4. gg no re guardsmen.

BaronDG
29-01-2007, 19:31
Captain Micha, I just don't know what you're saying?

Slaaneshi Slave
29-01-2007, 19:35
He is saying in a game where the average top end stats are Marines, and the average low end stats are Guardsmen, SoB aparantly do not have mean stats...

BaronDG
29-01-2007, 20:09
Ah... really?

Captain Micha
29-01-2007, 20:15
I'm saying battle sisters stats are superior to that of the flak jacket boys

Slaaneshi Slave
29-01-2007, 20:34
Yes, better than Guardsmen, worse than Marines, thus average stats. It's not difficult, is it?

Captain Micha
29-01-2007, 20:36
no guardsmen are average. tau are below average

also population wise guardsmen are the average

Master Jeridian
29-01-2007, 22:06
Yes you can roll poor all game, but when used on average (and when your opponent takes 2 or 3 Exorcists) you will get good rolls and you will eliminate threats. Point in fact, if you can roll a 4+ on the exorcist (50/50 shot, Per Tank, when there's normally 2 or 3 on a normal 1500-1850 game), then you're doing very well as far as shooting at infantry squads (especially MEQ's). This should be fixed.

Rolling well and rolling average are two different things. You can't just look at powerful an Exorcist can be when determining it's pts cost, but also how rubbish is could be. This is the tricky part about random variables in the stats.

So you just take the average 3.5 and pt accordingly. A Predator with triple las is same armour, slightly less shots, better strength and 3 rather than 1 weapons (more upsides than downsides). Base cost 10pts more than an exorcist.

This is before we factor in the fact the Exorcist is our only long-range anti-tank whilst the Predator is one amongst las/plas, dread's, Speeders, etc all able to strike tanks from afar.


Bling Captains aren't the SM's powerful element, that'd be Libby's. Fact is that the Cannoness can stand up in CC to a Space Marine HQ in CC and that HQ will cost more points than the Cannoness. In fact if you're lucky the Cannoness can even stand up to a Demon Prince pretty well if you burn the faith for it (assuming they're not statured with the special weapon that ignores INV saves).

At 130pts for a jump pack Canoness, 100pts or so bare minimum. How much is a jump pack Chaplain? Do they not have Fearless, re-roll on charge for whole units, more attacks, better strength, WS, BS, I, more attacks (since their combat weapons are one handed), 4+ Invulnerable.
I think the Canoness would be overpriced in comparison if not for the Invulnerable possibility (since it's not guaranteed and could screw you at the worst moment).

A 0-1 I'd tolerate.


Of course only the Cannoness gets the Inv save after taking her LD10 Test, and you'll only need the faith for a few turns as the Cannoness will roughly take about 2 Rounds of Combat with a "big nasty" to end things, meaning faith usage is kept to a minimum. In addition you can "kenny" for more faith when needed by killing a VSS from a normal Sisters unit who likely doesn't need to be faithful anymore (ie when they're in an assault they can't win and won't be shooting anymore).

Running out of faith is a problem if your opponent can force it to happen, but if you know how to run your Sisters keeping faith where you need it isn't a problem.

Should a Sisters player be punished for knowing how to use his army? There are a lot of 'if's' and 'but's' in these examples. All of which require the Sisters player to be a better player than his opponent to pull off. How did the 'big nasty' get trapped in combat with the Canoness? Why is the 'big nasty' not supported by a counter-assault unit (pretty much anything above Guardsmen) to drag her down under weight of attacks? Etc.


Well when you cost 3-4 points per model less than the Space Marines (Chaos and Loyalist) you should be inferior on a model by model basis. Normally when things cost that kind of points per model they're pretty fragile, Sisters on the other hand AREN'T fragile because of the 3+ Save.

With the ability to go invulnerable when you need it, you become way more resilient than models who cost a lot more.

Toughness 3, Str 3. Trust me, they knock the Sisters down. Str 3 means they are rarely scratching Marines. T 3 means they are easy to slap back.
A 3+ Invulnerable save means jack against heavy bolters, bolters, burst cannons, assault cannons, etc.

Again, this is before we factor in all the options and bonuses Space Marines get over Sisters.


Uh huh, and since your normal troop unit of Sisters comes with 10 as the minimum unit size(which you complain about, oddly)

I'm supposed to be thankful for having less choice? It means people must take minimum 20 Battle Sisters, etc. Would SM's or Chaos mind if their Troops where 10+, I think so.

I'd quote your mention of smaller squad sizes being bad, of Deep Strike being bad, etc, etc.
The point is a Sisters player does not have the choice to decide this for themselves, a Marine player does- and often it's not so clean cut. A Deep Striking unit, I'd risk within 12" for Divine Guidance.

Smaller squad sizes, more squads, more specials, etc.

I don't want any of these things in the Sisters army list- that is what makes the list so balanced. I just want them considered when Sisters are compared to Marines, IG and Chaos and only the good sides of the Sisters are ever mentioned.


I'll be bold and say I think the pure Sisters list is as close to balanced as the game gets. Most other armies should be restricted, as tricky to use as them (like SM's), some need to be brought up to their level (Orks).
They can be powerful, but they can never be played on auto-pilot, unlike some other armies.

I don't think Sisters players should be punished for knowing how to use Rhino's, how and when to use the little Faith they have, etc. These things all have downsides, chances of failure, etc.

Knowing to spam 9 Speeders, or 9 Oblits, etc is a different matter entirely.

Frankly if Sisters are made more expensive, have their Canoness nerfed, have Exorcists nerfed- then seriously, what do they have that a Space Marine army can't do better?
Or are Sisters meant to be a 'weaker' army?

Minister
29-01-2007, 22:35
I would argue strongly against any change to the basic sisters, but the cannoness does need a small change, because she is worth more than 10 points of improvment on a Palatine. Even if this comes out as a 5 point increase on the Cannoness and a 5 point break on the Palatine, it means that one choice is not superior in every possible way as far as value for points is concerned. Hardly a great nerf, but it is a worthwhile change. A 0-1 restriction would also suit the background, as would adding the hit-and-Run rule of the Seraphim for those with jump packs, as they would have trained in the appropriate skill (increase the jump pack by a few points to accomodate for this).

Random shots suits the Exorcist because it is barely understood archaic technology (and drowned in purity seals if you, like me, decided that there just weren't enough on the model). The Eldar, by contrast, have sleek and well developed weapons which they create and use with great skill this does not suit random numbers of shots. I would still support a bit more variety in the Sisters' heavy support, though. Particularly in the anti-tank field.

Repentia are sub-par. Give them Feel No Pain, holy Hatred every turn with the Mistress allowing you to either not use Holy Hatred (for when there's a Landspeeder 10" away on the right and a Predator sitting on the objective straight ahead of you 11" away). Possibly give them the Blood Claws' +2 attacks on the charge as well. This leaves them fragile but damaging (the ones that don't die tend to cause a LOT of damage) and makes a nice set of models which fit the background usable again.

Reducing the cost of the Dominions' special weapons in orrder that they actually be used (and perhaps get more use for the Immolator as well)

Reducing the Seraphims' melta-bombs to +2 points (as they already have the 2 points for Krak grenades included) would also make using them as anti-tank more practical (and some models for the twin inferno pistol option would be nice too).

Though I gripe about the lack of heavy weapons in the troops squads, particularly given the large squad size, I can see why it has been done. The Sisters do not play like Marines, and this is a good thing.

Vet.Sister
30-01-2007, 01:08
3 pages??? whups, this is what happens when you make a post and then get busy with something else and forget about the 'net for two days:rolleyes:

Obviously, there's been alot of discussion. The concensus seems to be, there should not be any more overlap than is absolutely necessary.

Voodoo Boyz
30-01-2007, 11:05
Rolling well and rolling average are two different things. You can't just look at powerful an Exorcist can be when determining it's pts cost, but also how rubbish is could be. This is the tricky part about random variables in the stats.

So you just take the average 3.5 and pt accordingly. A Predator with triple las is same armour, slightly less shots, better strength and 3 rather than 1 weapons (more upsides than downsides). Base cost 10pts more than an exorcist.

This is before we factor in the fact the Exorcist is our only long-range anti-tank whilst the Predator is one amongst las/plas, dread's, Speeders, etc all able to strike tanks from afar.

So saying the Exorcist should be 3 Shots, S9 AP1 and thus better at anti-tank duties (it's equal in chances to rolling a 6 on the current Exorcist to penetrating AV14, notice I still think it should be AP1), is "nerfing" the exorcist. Or are you just upset because it's not a catch-all kill MEQ's killer that it is now?



At 130pts for a jump pack Canoness, 100pts or so bare minimum. How much is a jump pack Chaplain? Do they not have Fearless, re-roll on charge for whole units, more attacks, better strength, WS, BS, I, more attacks (since their combat weapons are one handed), 4+ Invulnerable.
I think the Canoness would be overpriced in comparison if not for the Invulnerable possibility (since it's not guaranteed and could screw you at the worst moment).

A 0-1 I'd tolerate.

For a 3 Wound Chaplain? 120 Minimum. And a Jump Pack Cannoness is 115 Points unless you master craft the Eviserator and bump her to 130.

Look when I can throw a Chaplain with an assault squad with Furious Charge at a Cannonness, and have them charge, and have her sit there and carve through over half the squad (8 marines w/ PF Sarge) before going down through 5 subsequent rounds of combat (Two And a Half Turns), she's definitely earning far, far more than the 115 Points she cost. Both in VP's earned AND in tying up an assault squad and IC for over 1/3 of the game.

And my fix to it was to put an 0-1 on the Cannoness. Or put in a 0-1 on the Cloak, which is probably better though that means you'll see one flying nun and another "KILL ME" Pattern Cannoness running forward to die for more faith (yes I've seen 47 Point Cannonness's running around because they're worth it for the potential 4 faith points generated).


Should a Sisters player be punished for knowing how to use his army? There are a lot of 'if's' and 'but's' in these examples. All of which require the Sisters player to be a better player than his opponent to pull off. How did the 'big nasty' get trapped in combat with the Canoness? Why is the 'big nasty' not supported by a counter-assault unit (pretty much anything above Guardsmen) to drag her down under weight of attacks? Etc.

See my above example. It's not punishing a Sisters player for knowing how to use the army, it's "when I know how to use the army I can break certain aspects of the game". No one should be that resilient in the game. Even an Archon's shadow field goes away after the first failed save.


Toughness 3, Str 3. Trust me, they knock the Sisters down. Str 3 means they are rarely scratching Marines. T 3 means they are easy to slap back.
A 3+ Invulnerable save means jack against heavy bolters, bolters, burst cannons, assault cannons, etc.

Again, this is before we factor in all the options and bonuses Space Marines get over Sisters.

Trust me, I know what Marines vs. Sisters can do in CC. Yes when Marines assault a Sisters squad that doesn't have an evicerator they will hold up the Sisters. I've thrown the remnants of a Divinely Guided Tac squad at a Sisters squad to hold them up for a few turns. This doesn't change the fact that without having power weapons the Sisters will stick around for some time.

And yes the 3+ Inv Doesn't Mean a whole lot versus Heavy Bolters, Bolters, Burst or Assault Cannons (well actually it DOES vs Assault Cannons), but it sure as hell makes a difference versus quite a few weapons and as I've already pointed out your T3 3+ Save Sisters at 11 Points a Pop are much more Resilient than 13 Point T4 4+ Save Marine Scouts. That's the WHOLE point of my argument that Sisters are undercosted, 3+ Save on any model should cost more than 11 Points, it's too resilient for what you pay for it. Sure they can get slapped around in assault, but their shooting damage output is huge, they are DEFINITELY undercosted for what you get. I can't imagine anyone who's played with Sisters to even try to argue otherwise.


I'm supposed to be thankful for having less choice? It means people must take minimum 20 Battle Sisters, etc. Would SM's or Chaos mind if their Troops where 10+, I think so.

When Sisters Cost as much as Marines or Chaos Marines, maybe they can be 5+ for a squad? Celestines cost more and they're 5+ to a Squad?


I'd quote your mention of smaller squad sizes being bad, of Deep Strike being bad, etc, etc.
The point is a Sisters player does not have the choice to decide this for themselves, a Marine player does- and often it's not so clean cut. A Deep Striking unit, I'd risk within 12" for Divine Guidance.

First off only 40 Point Terminators Can Deep Strike. We pay for our Veteran Skills (infiltrate). And maybe one of the reasons you can't deepstrike Sisters is because Divine Guidance is so good at Rapid Fire, and being able to just Drop that on someone is probably just a tad bit on the side of broken? I can see the 4 Flamer, 5 Girl squads of Dominions now.


Smaller squad sizes, more squads, more specials, etc.

I don't want any of these things in the Sisters army list- that is what makes the list so balanced. I just want them considered when Sisters are compared to Marines, IG and Chaos and only the good sides of the Sisters are ever mentioned.

Uh huh, yes you're not as good in assault as the other people in Power Armor, but you shoot just as well and have ways to mitigate your weaknesses. You've got stats where it matters most and are underpointed.



I'll be bold and say I think the pure Sisters list is as close to balanced as the game gets. Most other armies should be restricted, as tricky to use as them (like SM's), some need to be brought up to their level (Orks).
They can be powerful, but they can never be played on auto-pilot, unlike some other armies.

I don't think Sisters players should be punished for knowing how to use Rhino's, how and when to use the little Faith they have, etc. These things all have downsides, chances of failure, etc.

Knowing to spam 9 Speeders, or 9 Oblits, etc is a different matter entirely.

Little Faith they have? Most Sisters lists I've seen max out on as much faith as possible. 1850 games with 10 Faith Points in an army aren't hard to come by and that's fully mechanized. And you get faith BACK when things die.

Yes SM's have abuses, Chaos has even more (and I think both should be toned down), but just because other armies are worse doesn't mean that Sisters don't have abusive things either.


Frankly if Sisters are made more expensive, have their Canoness nerfed, have Exorcists nerfed- then seriously, what do they have that a Space Marine army can't do better?
Or are Sisters meant to be a 'weaker' army?

How did I recommend the Cannoness or Exorcist Nerfed? I said the Cannoness should be limited to 0-1 or at least 0-1 on the 2+ Save Nun. The Exorcist I want to see be better at anti-tank but not as great vs MEQ's or other pieces of heavy infantry.

And besides look at what SM's have now, yeah they'd be better. But look at what's happening in Codex Dark Angels and the fact that there's a "Codex Space Marine Redux" coming out, if the changes in the DA are rolled into the SM dex in the redo then I think you have a lot less complaining to do.

Master Jeridian
30-01-2007, 12:10
I just don't see it, TBH. Sisters are not overpowered.


So saying the Exorcist should be 3 Shots, S9 AP1 and thus better at anti-tank duties (it's equal in chances to rolling a 6 on the current Exorcist to penetrating AV14, notice I still think it should be AP1), is "nerfing" the exorcist. Or are you just upset because it's not a catch-all kill MEQ's killer that it is now?

But by average's I'm rolling 3.5 at Str 8. So your idea is actually better from a competitive viewpoint.
I just like the random element.

Upset about MEq killing? Woot my Exorcist just shot 3/4 shots at a Marine unit- hit with 2/3 wounded with 2/3. I just killed 3 Marines with my only long-range anti-tank unit- how clever am I? Or 9 Marines with all of my Heavy Support and long-range anti-tank.

Nope, I'd rather shoot it at vehicles any day.

Or are we only looking at these Exorcists rolling 6's every time again, ignoring the times it rolls 1's all game.


For a 3 Wound Chaplain? 120 Minimum. And a Jump Pack Cannoness is 115 Points unless you master craft the Eviserator and bump her to 130.

Look when I can throw a Chaplain with an assault squad with Furious Charge at a Cannonness, and have them charge, and have her sit there and carve through over half the squad (8 marines w/ PF Sarge) before going down through 5 subsequent rounds of combat (Two And a Half Turns), she's definitely earning far, far more than the 115 Points she cost. Both in VP's earned AND in tying up an assault squad and IC for over 1/3 of the game.

Err, no, no she's not. She's killed 60pts...

So Sisters are broken because Space Marines can't use the same tried and boring tactics against them as against everyone? Here's an idea, throw the Chaplain and Assault Squad at Battle Sisters.


And my fix to it was to put an 0-1 on the Cannoness. Or put in a 0-1 on the Cloak, which is probably better though that means you'll see one flying nun and another "KILL ME" Pattern Cannoness running forward to die for more faith (yes I've seen 47 Point Cannonness's running around because they're worth it for the potential 4 faith points generated).

I'll give you this change- 0-1 Canoness.


See my above example. It's not punishing a Sisters player for knowing how to use the army, it's "when I know how to use the army I can break certain aspects of the game". No one should be that resilient in the game. Even an Archon's shadow field goes away after the first failed save.

Please, breaking aspects of the game? No one should be that resilient? Are you the games designer?
That is the Sisters 'thang', they stick around far longer than most people expect a T3 model too- and tough cookies for underestimating them.
Seriously, you now want to nerf Canoness, nerf Exorcists and weaken the Spirit of the Matyr. What would a Sisters army have to offer? Weaker Marines- gee, no thanks.


Trust me, I know what Marines vs. Sisters can do in CC. Yes when Marines assault a Sisters squad that doesn't have an evicerator they will hold up the Sisters. I've thrown the remnants of a Divinely Guided Tac squad at a Sisters squad to hold them up for a few turns. This doesn't change the fact that without having power weapons the Sisters will stick around for some time.

Perhaps you should stop thinking of Sisters as little girls that will faint if a Space Marine shouts at them. Yes, they will stick around- that's the armies thing, it's what separates it from SM's.

Sisters are a tarpit army, similar in outcome of Death Guard (though for differen reasons)- i.e. they can hold up the enemy a long time but they will do little damage during this.


And yes the 3+ Inv Doesn't Mean a whole lot versus Heavy Bolters, Bolters, Burst or Assault Cannons (well actually it DOES vs Assault Cannons), but it sure as hell makes a difference versus quite a few weapons and as I've already pointed out your T3 3+ Save Sisters at 11 Points a Pop are much more Resilient than 13 Point T4 4+ Save Marine Scouts. That's the WHOLE point of my argument that Sisters are undercosted, 3+ Save on any model should cost more than 11 Points, it's too resilient for what you pay for it.

And this is yet again trying to make a straight comparison between the two. Shall we list the units and options available to the Scout's army? And the one's available to the Sister's army?
The Sisters army has some severe drawbacks to compensate.


Sure they can get slapped around in assault, but their shooting damage output is huge, they are DEFINITELY undercosted for what you get. I can't imagine anyone who's played with Sisters to even try to argue otherwise.

This shooting damage is within 12", you know- in charge range of even the slowest unit. So it requires a lot of skill to get there unmolested without the Rhino going pop, the unit being charged by faster stuff, etc.

So should a Sisters player be punished for knowing how to do this? And it really isn't a no-brainer like spamming Oblits, Speeders, etc.

I play Sisters and I argue otherwise. They have a lot of firepower at 12". But the board's are decidedly bigger, and at more than 12" they have a few bolter shots and Exorcists.


When Sisters Cost as much as Marines or Chaos Marines, maybe they can be 5+ for a squad? Celestines cost more and they're 5+ to a Squad?

So your finally accepting that Sisters are cheaper because they have such drawbacks. Celestians are also Elites, not Troops.


Uh huh, yes you're not as good in assault as the other people in Power Armor, but you shoot just as well and have ways to mitigate your weaknesses. You've got stats where it matters most and are underpointed.

Mitigate weaknesses? Every army can mitigate it's weaknesses, it's called skill- again, I ask, should Sisters players be punished for mitigating their weaknesses?

And again we're ignoring the weak stats, because apparently they don't matter in a discussion about the army...
A cheaper or equal Marine squad can hold up a Battle Sisters unit even with an Eviscerator. Initially they will not have Spirit (as 10+ is not good for casting it), so the Marines will get in early kills- maybe breaking and wiping out the Sisters. If they hold, the Marines can keep putting the hits in, keep slapping the power fist against Invulnerable armour and watch the Faith points very quickly dwindle- leaving the Canoness up **** creek.


First off only 40 Point Terminators Can Deep Strike. We pay for our Veteran Skills (infiltrate). And maybe one of the reasons you can't deepstrike Sisters is because Divine Guidance is so good at Rapid Fire, and being able to just Drop that on someone is probably just a tad bit on the side of broken? I can see the 4 Flamer, 5 Girl squads of Dominions now.

And dropping Fear and 2 Assault Cannons isn't (just loving these double standards). I don't want Deep Strike and I don't want Infiltrate- but these are options. The more options a unit/army has, the more they cost- it's just that simple.

Sisters have the choice of walking (i.e. dying) or Rhino's.


How did I recommend the Cannoness or Exorcist Nerfed? I said the Cannoness should be limited to 0-1 or at least 0-1 on the 2+ Save Nun. The Exorcist I want to see be better at anti-tank but not as great vs MEQ's or other pieces of heavy infantry.

Because MEq's are such a weak army, that any threat to them must be nerfed (ahem, Starcannon).
I conceed 0-1 Canoness- just because I'm a fluff nut and two high leaders flying amongst a skirmish force seems wrong. But then so does every Chaos skirmish being led by a Daemon Prince, etc.

Your changes to the Exorcist actually improve it, but at the expense that it is boring. I like the random element- no matter how often you disagree, you can roll a 1 just as easily as a 6.
And using your only anti-tank long-range weapon against troops, even SM's, is stupid, unless there are no tanks to see.


And besides look at what SM's have now, yeah they'd be better. But look at what's happening in Codex Dark Angels and the fact that there's a "Codex Space Marine Redux" coming out, if the changes in the DA are rolled into the SM dex in the redo then I think you have a lot less complaining to do.

SM's are better- so why should Sisters be automatically an inferior army? I missed the memo on that one.
Dark Angels are a completely different army (don't get me started on the bonuses, I think my DIY Chapter just found new evidence about their Founding Chapter...)
Codex SM Redux is at worst a vague rumour, at best something in the distant future that none of us have any knowledge of the changes.

So that above quote is kind of irrelevant. I could just as easily say Sisters are weak, because in their next Codex they will be...


Downsides:

No plasmaguns (we get Storm Bolters...woot)
No heavy weapons (except expensive Heavy Support ones)
T 3, S 3- in a T 4, S 4 world. So power swords are a joke.
No ATSKNF
One tank, two transports
Troops are 10+
Eviscerator is 2-handed, Str 6 and still more expensive than power fist.
No Infiltrate
No Deep Strike

Onisuzume
30-01-2007, 13:19
Downsides:

No plasmaguns (we get Storm Bolters...woot)
No heavy weapons (except expensive Heavy Support ones)
T 3, S 3- in a T 4, S 4 world. So power swords are a joke.
No ATSKNF
One tank, two transports
Troops are 10+
Eviscerator is 2-handed, Str 6 and still more expensive than power fist.
No Infiltrate
No Deep Strike
3 Transports, they have 3. You forgot the Repressor.

Minister
30-01-2007, 13:31
Then the Space Marines get another four transports (Thunderhawk, Thunderhawk Transporter, Land Praider Promethius, Land Raider Helios) and so-on. Forgeworld units are not part of the main list, and should not be concidered as such.

I still stand by my hatred of plasma weapons post 2nd edition (or anything that "gets hot") not wielded by an Ork.

Voodoo Boyz
30-01-2007, 13:44
I just don't see it, TBH. Sisters are not overpowered.

But by average's I'm rolling 3.5 at Str 8. So your idea is actually better from a competitive viewpoint.
I just like the random element.

Upset about MEq killing? Woot my Exorcist just shot 3/4 shots at a Marine unit- hit with 2/3 wounded with 2/3. I just killed 3 Marines with my only long-range anti-tank unit- how clever am I? Or 9 Marines with all of my Heavy Support and long-range anti-tank.

Nope, I'd rather shoot it at vehicles any day.

Or are we only looking at these Exorcists rolling 6's every time again, ignoring the times it rolls 1's all game.

I don't like seeing Exorcists that are as good at killing entire squads as they are at killing tanks. The tank is too good at killing anything with it's random element.


Err, no, no she's not. She's killed 60pts...

Um, no she killed over half the squad. 8 Assault Marines with Furious Charge, PF Sarge, and 2 Plasma Pistols cost 240 Points, that squad is now worth half VP's at the end of the game, netting 120 Points. So yeah she earned a little more than she cost in hard VP's, but she also took them out of the game for more than 1/3 of it. Which isn't quantifiable in hard VP's but it's worth a damn ton.


So Sisters are broken because Space Marines can't use the same tried and boring tactics against them as against everyone? Here's an idea, throw the Chaplain and Assault Squad at Battle Sisters.

Wow, no kidding? Maybe, just maybe I had to divert the assault squad to protect the other parts of my army? Mech Sisters have a nice ability to dictate things as far as threat areas are concerned. When playing against sisters there is a large area where you can't just plop down troops in LOS because the second Assault marines are exposed they're going to get hit by exorcists and any squad in a Rhino that is within 24" of them.

The way to beating mech sisters is to force them to come to you in areas where you can handle them. When the assault marines are stuck in an area where they can't advance because of good positioning on the Sisters part you have to force the Sisters out by long range shooting. The Sisters respond to this by going for target overload by throwing out some rhinos (who pop smoke and hope for the best) and then a seraphim squad and a cannonness behind them (to be safe from targeting). This will set them up for a charge the next turn on anything within 18".

That's just good game playing, but when I have to throw a combined points total of 240+122 at a Cannoness and she holds up more than 3 times her points for over two turns of a game, while earning more than her points cost back in hard VP's at the same time, something is a bit wrong. A demon prince or hive tyrant or even an Archon with Shadow Field would have gone down faster. All that for 115 points which leaves the seraphim (who hit and run away) and battle sisters free to do what they want.

You can throw that 115 Point Cannoness at a Terminator Librarian + Terminator Command Squad (which will cost in the order of around 400 Points) and have her come out unscathed. Since when were Sisters (who were designed as a Shooting Force, not a CC army) supposed to get a character that can pull that off on her own? Are you telling me that a Cannoness should be able to pull off stunts like that which would really be left to really elite (and expensive) assault units like Demon Princes or Hive Tyrants? What SM HQ could pull that kind of thing off and cost that kind of points?




Please, breaking aspects of the game? No one should be that resilient? Are you the games designer?
That is the Sisters 'thang', they stick around far longer than most people expect a T3 model too- and tough cookies for underestimating them.
Seriously, you now want to nerf Canoness, nerf Exorcists and weaken the Spirit of the Matyr. What would a Sisters army have to offer? Weaker Marines- gee, no thanks.

Did I say ANYTHING about weakening SotM? Did I nerf the Cannoness? No I said 0-1, which you agreed with! Did I nerf the Exorcist? No, you said I made it better!

As far as breaking aspects of the game, see the above examples. Since when were Sisters designed to be an army that can stick around and chew through elite assault units that no other Imperial HQ assault unit could hope to pull off? For far less points than any other one? Are you telling me that a Jump Pack Cannoness should be able to outlast a Grey Knight Grand Master? A fully kitted out Librarian, Chaplain, or SM Commander? All of whom cost more points and aren't as capable as she is in taking out elite units ON THEIR OWN?



Perhaps you should stop thinking of Sisters as little girls that will faint if a Space Marine shouts at them. Yes, they will stick around- that's the armies thing, it's what separates it from SM's.

Where did I say Sisters are little girls that will faint if a Space Marine shouts at them? I thought the idea of them was that they were a finess army that was able to deal massive amounts of damage at close range - Kind of like an Imperial Version of how Eldar work. Not an army that can do massive damage at close range AND have awesome Close Combat IC's.


Sisters are a tarpit army, similar in outcome of Death Guard (though for differen reasons)- i.e. they can hold up the enemy a long time but they will do little damage during this.

No see that's the problem, they'll do quite a bit of damage while playing tarpit. Sure normal sisters squads can play tarpit with whatever and hold things up. OK fine. It's units like Seraphim who can tarpit, hit and run, then come back, divine guidance you (or just hit you with Melta Pistols) and then charge you again with an eviserator, or combine forces.

In fact I don't even have too much problem with that at all, I say fine keep it, but the 2+ Cannoness running around to support something that nice is a bit much.



And this is yet again trying to make a straight comparison between the two. Shall we list the units and options available to the Scout's army? And the one's available to the Sister's army?
The Sisters army has some severe drawbacks to compensate.

The comparison to Scouts is merely to prove that they're more resilient than T4 troops without a 3+ Save, despite the fact that the Sisters are T3.

So you're telling me that Sisters are fairly pointed compared to other units in their own Dex? They're undercosted, or do you really thing that they're only worth 1 extra point over Imperial Storm Troopers. Why are Celestines never taken? They mitigate the Sisters CC problems somewhat (eviserator hitting on a 3 isn't so bad even with less attacks than a PF), but most players opt for the cheaper sisters squad in a Rhino because they're more efficient.


This shooting damage is within 12", you know- in charge range of even the slowest unit. So it requires a lot of skill to get there unmolested without the Rhino going pop, the unit being charged by faster stuff, etc.

A lot of skill? You're using a Rhino Rush for crying out loud! It's the same kind of stuff that people bitched about forever with the 3rd Ed varient Marine Codex's. Rush forward, pop out and shoot or pop smoke and do it next turn. Emperor protect the player that wants to advance a unit on the sisters instead of sitting in their DZ and trying to pop rhinos or Exorcists because if they move forward they'll just put themselves in double tap range sooner.



So should a Sisters player be punished for knowing how to do this? And it really isn't a no-brainer like spamming Oblits, Speeders, etc.

Did I say Sisters were as broken as 9 Oblit IW or 9 Speeder SM's? They're not, but they have some things that could use some tweaking as there are some abusive elements in the list.

I mentioned THREE things, one of which you agreed with, one of which you said made things better for the sisters, and one you disagree with.



So your finally accepting that Sisters are cheaper because they have such drawbacks. Celestians are also Elites, not Troops. The point of Celestians was that they cost more so they can get smaller squad sizes. 10 Girls in a Squad isn't much of a drawback since what you use your troops for you need about 10 anyway.


Mitigate weaknesses? Every army can mitigate it's weaknesses, it's called skill- again, I ask, should Sisters players be punished for mitigating their weaknesses?

Where did I say punish Sisters for mitigating weaknesses? I said that the normal Sisters squad in a Rhino is underpointed for what it does. That should be addressed.


And again we're ignoring the weak stats, because apparently they don't matter in a discussion about the army...
A cheaper or equal Marine squad can hold up a Battle Sisters unit even with an Eviscerator. Initially they will not have Spirit (as 10+ is not good for casting it), so the Marines will get in early kills- maybe breaking and wiping out the Sisters. If they hold, the Marines can keep putting the hits in, keep slapping the power fist against Invulnerable armour and watch the Faith points very quickly dwindle- leaving the Canoness up **** creek.

LOL, "maybe they'll break". Unmoddifiable LD9 for 5 Points, yeah OK maybe they'll break like what 18% of the time? If they're getting charged by a big squad of CC troops then they will have a problem, but 9 times out of 10 they're not getting charged before they can get a divine guidance off. If not, you've done something very wrong or flubbed a hell of a lot of rolls. And if you need them to hold up that assault squad, they can, for a very low cost. And when you don't need to hold them up anymore you can just kill the Vet and get more faith back, giving that Cannoness a paddle for **** creek.



And dropping Fear and 2 Assault Cannons isn't (just loving these double standards). I don't want Deep Strike and I don't want Infiltrate- but these are options. The more options a unit/army has, the more they cost- it's just that simple.

You know, I really wish you'd stop reading all this kind of BS into my posts. What double standard is there here? I'm saying that if Sisters could deepstrike it'd be pretty broken, especially with Dominion Squads. And guess what the Dominion squads would probably do more damage than the Terminator squad AND would cost a hell of a lot less to boot. Did I say anywhere that the Fear/Assault Cannon bomb wasn't broken or needed to be fixed (which is it in the DA Dex, and possibly will in the next SM dex if it's true).

And I already said "The more options a unit/army has, the more they cost- it's just that simple.", we pay for our abilities in other armies. All I said about Sisters was that they're under pointed in what they do.



Because MEq's are such a weak army, that any threat to them must be nerfed (ahem, Starcannon).
I conceed 0-1 Canoness- just because I'm a fluff nut and two high leaders flying amongst a skirmish force seems wrong. But then so does every Chaos skirmish being led by a Daemon Prince, etc.

Your changes to the Exorcist actually improve it, but at the expense that it is boring. I like the random element- no matter how often you disagree, you can roll a 1 just as easily as a 6.
And using your only anti-tank long-range weapon against troops, even SM's, is stupid, unless there are no tanks to see.

The exorcist is great versus ANYTHING, not just MEQ's. That's why what I reccomended made it better versus tanks and not as good versus everything else. Shooting an exorcist at a heavy weapons squad (Dev, Havok, whatever) is never a bad idea, especially if you can isolate what shoots back at it or if there aren't any tanks around (which is common in many armies). It's also great versus a Terminator Squad, a Bike Squad, an Assault Squad, heck ANYTHING. When something is too good at killing everything (Starcannon being a good example) it's a candidate to get toned down or tweaked. And yes, I think the Assault Cannon should get toned down a ton too.



SM's are better- so why should Sisters be automatically an inferior army? I missed the memo on that one.
Dark Angels are a completely different army (don't get me started on the bonuses, I think my DIY Chapter just found new evidence about their Founding Chapter...)
Codex SM Redux is at worst a vague rumour, at best something in the distant future that none of us have any knowledge of the changes.


Did I say Sisters should be inferior? No, I said they should get the 3 adjustments I said, and that Marines will likely (and should) get adjustments down as well.

You've got to be kidding me about switching TO Dark Angels, they have so many Nerfs that I know far more DA players who are switching to Codex to avoid the nerf stick. But based on what I think should happen to the Sisters is that they should have the adjustments I said (all three things), and if that happened then the Marines should get the adjustments I think as well. That's kind of the whole point of discussions like this: "Gee what do you think should happen with X codex?".

Icarus
30-01-2007, 14:30
i have a feeling this is becoming a pointless discussion but I'll weigh in.


Sure they can get slapped around in assault, but their shooting damage output is huge, they are DEFINITELY undercosted for what you get. I can't imagine anyone who's played with Sisters to even try to argue otherwise.

Imagine it. There are quite clearly plenty of people who do play Sisters and are arguing otherwise. We're not arguing because we want our army to be made uber, we're arguing that our army is not broken and/or undercosted, because we've played and know it it to be reasonably balanced but quite challenging to play.


I don't like seeing Exorcists that are as good at killing entire squads as they are at killing tanks. The tank is too good at killing anything with it's random element.

I kind of find it hard to believe that Exorcists are killing whole squads of anything, unless you are fielding minimum sized squads and your opponent is rolling an amazingly lucky number of 6s. You seem really annoyed about this random element, but I wish you could accept that it works both ways. Sometimes it will get 6 shots and blow the hell out of something. Equally it can fire 1 shot and miss.

Also, Exorcists are the bulk of the army's anti-tank weapons, so if somebody is shooting an Exorcist at your infantry, thats good news for you! I know I'd be happy if someone was shooting their big guns at my troops rather than my tanks.



Um, no she killed over half the squad. 8 Assault Marines with Furious Charge, PF Sarge, and 2 Plasma Pistols cost 240 Points, that squad is now worth half VP's at the end of the game, netting 120 Points. So yeah she earned a little more than she cost in hard VP's, but she also took them out of the game for more than 1/3 of it. Which isn't quantifiable in hard VP's but it's worth a damn ton.

Mathhammer is a poor justification for anything.

Even if what you say happened, whats the big deal? A character with a power weapon killed some marines and held up a unit for a couple of turns? Those Space Marine HQs have much the same effect on my sisters, if they they don't kill them all. Hell, Tau HQs have had that effect. Its all relative.




The way to beating mech sisters is to force them to come to you in areas where you can handle them.

Thats true, although the other way to stop Mech Sisters (I have learnt the hard way) is that they pop a couple of your Rhinos. You don't have to take them all out, just immobilise one or two to slow the advance, allowing you to easily deal with the units piecemeal.


When the assault marines are stuck in an area where they can't advance because of good positioning on the Sisters part you have to force the Sisters out by long range shooting.

Again with the hypothetical situations that prove nothing. You're complaining that you can't advance beacuse of "good positioning"? Clearly a trait exclusive to the Sisters. If your enemy sets up well, thats life.



That's just good game playing, but when I have to throw a combined points total of 240+122 at a Cannoness and she holds up more than 3 times her points for over two turns of a game, while earning more than her points cost back in hard VP's at the same time, something is a bit wrong. A demon prince or hive tyrant or even an Archon with Shadow Field would have gone down faster.


Again with hypotheticals. I'm guessing things like this have actually happened to you, and I have seen things like this happen too. However I can regail you with just as many stories of how my Cannoness got taken down by some marines without claiming a single enemy victim. Its swings and roundabouts.



The comparison to Scouts is merely to prove that they're more resilient than T4 troops without a 3+ Save, despite the fact that the Sisters are T3.

Sisters are a bit more resilient that SM Scout due to their armour save yes. However SM Scouts come with a variety of long-range weapon options, or can be kitted out for CC, in which they can be expected to outperform Battle Sisters. Sisters can do one thing well, but not much else. Scouts can do several things well. Thats the reason for those 2 points I can't belive we're arguing about.[



So you're telling me that Sisters are fairly pointed compared to other units in their own Dex? They're undercosted, or do you really thing that they're only worth 1 extra point over Imperial Storm Troopers.

There are many WH players (as in, those who don't restrict themselves to just Sisters) who run both Sisters and ISTs as their troop choices. Just take a gander at the WH tactica thread. People like ISTs for their plasma guns and Chimearas.



Why are Celestines never taken? They mitigate the Sisters CC problems somewhat (eviserator hitting on a 3 isn't so bad even with less attacks than a PF), but most players opt for the cheaper sisters squad in a Rhino because they're more efficient.

Celestians are unpopular because theres very little advantage in taking them. Despite being given better WS and a special rule for CC, they are almost as bad in CC as the average Sister, hamstrung by their S3, T3. Why pay more for something thats worthless?


A lot of skill? You're using a Rhino Rush for crying out loud! It's the same kind of stuff that people bitched about forever with the 3rd Ed varient Marine Codex's. Rush forward, pop out and shoot or pop smoke and do it next turn. Emperor protect the player that wants to advance a unit on the sisters instead of sitting in their DZ and trying to pop rhinos or Exorcists because if they move forward they'll just put themselves in double tap range sooner.

Rhino Rushes aren't the no-brainer they were in 3rd ed any more, which as a SM player I'd expect you to have noticed. In 3rd ed you could quite happily just roll up the table, and then get out and move and charge. There were also few consequences if the Rhino got blown up. In 4th ed the penalties are much more severe. I still take Smoke on my Rhinos, but I move them up behind cover, because any army with a half-decent amount of anti-tank can pop them.



Did I say Sisters were as broken as 9 Oblit IW or 9 Speeder SM's? They're not, but they have some things that could use some tweaking as there are some abusive elements in the list.

Tweaking? Yes, absoultely. Abusive? Hardly. Your arguments for the 'abusive' nature of the army seem to boil down to:

- You can roll a 6 for an Exorcist.
- Cannonesses get a very nice invulnerable save.
- Sisters shoot as well as Space Marines, so they should cost as much/almost as much as they do.

To which I say:

- So what, you can also roll a 1. I agree Exorcists are good tanks, but they cost roughly the same as a Predator and are roughly as effective.
- As said before, yes its a good save, but it can be easily overcome. She doesn't do enough damage to justify nerfing. If she had killing power comparable to other armies HQ choices, then her save would be broken, but she doesn't by any stretch of the imagination.
- Sisters are nowhere near as powerful or as versatile as Space Marines. They shoot just as well, but are hopeless at combat, we all know that. Stats of 4 across the board and the ATSKNF rule make a massive difference. This is represented in the points difference.

Voodoo Boyz
30-01-2007, 14:41
i have a feeling this is becoming a pointless discussion but I'll weigh in.



Imagine it. There are quite clearly plenty of people who do play Sisters and are arguing otherwise. We're not arguing because we want our army to be made uber, we're arguing that our army is not broken and/or undercosted, because we've played and know it it to be reasonably balanced but quite challenging to play.



I kind of find it hard to believe that Exorcists are killing whole squads of anything, unless you are fielding minimum sized squads and your opponent is rolling an amazingly lucky number of 6s. You seem really annoyed about this random element, but I wish you could accept that it works both ways. Sometimes it will get 6 shots and blow the hell out of something. Equally it can fire 1 shot and miss.

Also, Exorcists are the bulk of the army's anti-tank weapons, so if somebody is shooting an Exorcist at your infantry, thats good news for you! I know I'd be happy if someone was shooting their big guns at my troops rather than my tanks.




Mathhammer is a poor justification for anything.

Even if what you say happened, whats the big deal? A character with a power weapon killed some marines and held up a unit for a couple of turns? Those Space Marine HQs have much the same effect on my sisters, if they they don't kill them all. Hell, Tau HQs have had that effect. Its all relative.




Thats true, although the other way to stop Mech Sisters (I have learnt the hard way) is that they pop a couple of your Rhinos. You don't have to take them all out, just immobilise one or two to slow the advance, allowing you to easily deal with the units piecemeal.



Again with the hypothetical situations that prove nothing. You're complaining that you can't advance beacuse of "good positioning"? Clearly a trait exclusive to the Sisters. If your enemy sets up well, thats life.




Again with hypotheticals. I'm guessing things like this have actually happened to you, and I have seen things like this happen too. However I can regail you with just as many stories of how my Cannoness got taken down by some marines without claiming a single enemy victim. Its swings and roundabouts.



Sisters are a bit more resilient that SM Scout due to their armour save yes. However SM Scouts come with a variety of long-range weapon options, or can be kitted out for CC, in which they can be expected to outperform Battle Sisters. Sisters can do one thing well, but not much else. Scouts can do several things well. Thats the reason for those 2 points I can't belive we're arguing about.[




There are many WH players (as in, those who don't restrict themselves to just Sisters) who run both Sisters and ISTs as their troop choices. Just take a gander at the WH tactica thread. People like ISTs for their plasma guns and Chimearas.



Celestians are unpopular because theres very little advantage in taking them. Despite being given better WS and a special rule for CC, they are almost as bad in CC as the average Sister, hamstrung by their WS3, S3, T3. Why pay more for something thats worthless?



Rhino Rushes aren't the no-brainer they were in 3rd ed any more, which as a SM player I'd expect you to have noticed. In 3rd ed you could quite happily just roll up the table, with little consequences if the Rhino got blown up. In 4th ed the penalties are much more severe. I still take Smoke on my Rhinos, but I move them up behind cover, because any army with a half-decent amount of anti-tank can pop them.



Tweaking? Yes, absoultely. Abusive? Hardly. Your arguments for the 'abusive' nature of the army seem to boil down to:

- You can roll a 6 for an Exorcist.
- Cannonesses get a very nice invulnerable save.
- Sisters shoot as well as Space Marines, so they should cost as much/almost as much as they do.

Good god, the situation described with the assault squad/chaplain was me explaining WHY the Assault Squad had to go after the Cannoness/Seraphim.

The "abusive" nature boils down to:

-The Random Nature of the Exorcist makes it too good against any target, especially when taken in multiples.

Hell I can say "people are only complaining about the assault cannon because it can rend every once and a while". See how silly this sounds now?

-The Cannoness with the 2+ Invulnerable save is a no brainier and taking two of them is abusive. I have a problem with a 2+ Inv save as a concept in general, but the ability to take two of them is abusive and should be limited (and the fact that yo'ure encouraged to because of the extra faith they bring as well as their damage/tar pit potential).

-The Sisters are underpointed because their 3+ Save makes them way too resilient for that points cost.

Icarus
30-01-2007, 15:20
Good god, the situation described with the assault squad/chaplain was me explaining WHY the Assault Squad had to go after the Cannoness/Seraphim.

I realise that but it was a very lengthy explanation that relied on a lot of assumptions, which was why I challenged it.

I also don't see why it HAS to go after them? If the Cannoness is as terrible as you say, surely you would be better taking them out at range, or tarpitting with a unit of your own?



-The Random Nature of the Exorcist makes it too good against any target, especially when taken in multiples.


It means that it can be very good against tanks and monstrous creatures when you roll well, which is true for many other tanks. Granted if you get a lot of shots you can also kill off a few marines, but this is hardly a role it excels at. I would only ever shoot at infantry with an Exorcist if there were no tanks to shoot at. Also, with the Exorcist modifications you proposed, I could still kill off a few marines each turn if I wanted to, so whats the difference?

I'm actually mostly against random shot weapons, for instance I was glad they took them out of the Eldar codex. However for the Exorcist it is very fluffy and adds some nice flavour to the army, rather than just having a Predator-clone.


Hell I can say "people are only complaining about the assault cannon because it can rend every once and a while". See how silly this sounds now?

Hardly a good comparison. People get annoyed about Ass-Cannon armies of Doom because you can take an army with nothing but loads of that weapon and its great against everything. You're getting annoyed because a random-shot weapon of limited availablity sometimes does well. In your example, its the equivalent of people getting upset because an army has 2 or 3 assault cannons in it.




-The Cannoness with the 2+ Invulnerable save is a no brainier and taking two of them is abusive. I have a problem with a 2+ Inv save as a concept in general, but the ability to take two of them is abusive and should be limited (and the fact that yo'ure encouraged to because of the extra faith they bring as well as their damage/tar pit potential).

I agree she's something of a no-brainer and thats something I'd like to see change by addressing the Palatine gap, and maybe a 0-1 limit for fluff reasons. I don't like no-brainer choices in any army.

As I said ealier, I don't believe the 2+ Inv is a problem in the context of a character with limited killing potential who can be easily dealt with by multiple attacks (such as by an assault marine squad).


-The Sisters are underpointed because their 3+ Save makes them way too resilient for that points cost.


I strongly disagree. Points cost is not just about resilience, its about strengths and weaknesses. Sisters have a good save, good firepower and a chance to use Faith, but they are S3 T3, terrible in combat and their firepower is short-ranged. Checks and balances.

If Sisters were 13 or 14 points it would be laughable, as they would cost almost the same as a Space Marine, but lack the advantages of Space Marines and whilst retaining their current disadvantages.

Captain Micha
30-01-2007, 15:22
how about 12 points then

this would satisfy the people wanting them to stay the same. and the people that want increase.....

I think they still need one. just cause while stormies and super kitted out veterans (in the case of the vets they cost the same as current sisters) have more options. that 3+ is rather nice.

between the stormies and the sisters I do not have much problem
its the kitted vets that I have problems with lol. more weapon options yes. but damn that +3

Voodoo Boyz
30-01-2007, 16:13
I realise that but it was a very lengthy explanation that relied on a lot of assumptions, which was why I challenged it.

I also don't see why it HAS to go after them? If the Cannoness is as terrible as you say, surely you would be better taking them out at range, or tarpitting with a unit of your own?

It was a specific situation where the best tactical option was to send in the assault squad. It was either that or let the 'Phim and a Cannonness hit the line squads (where they'd tear up) or not get in CC and get shot by the supporting rhinos. The ENTIRE ******* POINT was that a Cannoness can hold off that kind of assault and do so reliably.



It means that it can be very good against tanks and monstrous creatures when you roll well, which is true for many other tanks. Granted if you get a lot of shots you can also kill off a few marines, but this is hardly a role it excels at. I would only ever shoot at infantry with an Exorcist if there were no tanks to shoot at. Also, with the Exorcist modifications you proposed, I could still kill off a few marines each turn if I wanted to, so whats the difference?

The point is that you can't get 4 or more shots that are S8 and AP1 from one volley. If you roll a 4+ on the Exorcist (50/50 chance) you're doing phenominal. 3+ and you're good (and outperforming a Predator who can't move and shoot that kind of firepower), which is a 66% chance. At 2 Shots you're still doing well, and are on par with a Twin Linked Lascannon Pred (84% chance), and when you roll a 1, you're doing poorly.


I'm actually mostly against random shot weapons, for instance I was glad they took them out of the Eldar codex. However for the Exorcist it is very fluffy and adds some nice flavour to the army, rather than just having a Predator-clone.

It's too good against a variety of targets and it's also a no-brainer choice. I say the variable amount of shots needs to be fixed and probably some more long range anti-tank options are needed so most Sisters armies don't look all the same.


Hardly a good comparison. People get annoyed about Ass-Cannon armies of Doom because you can take an army with nothing but loads of that weapon and its great against everything. You're getting annoyed because a random-shot weapon of limited availablity sometimes does well. In your example, its the equivalent of people getting upset because an army has 2 or 3 assault cannons in it.

No people bitch about just one or two assault cannons. I know, I play Marines. If I throw down two speeders or one dual Assault cannon termy squad they bitch (depending on the opponent). I'm not so annoyed at the Exorcist, I'm just calling it like it is: in it's current incarnation it's too good against a variety of targets.


I agree she's something of a no-brainer and thats something I'd like to see change by addressing the Palatine gap, and maybe a 0-1 limit for fluff reasons. I don't like no-brainer choices in any army.

As I said ealier, I don't believe the 2+ Inv is a problem in the context of a character with limited killing potential who can be easily dealt with by multiple attacks (such as by an assault marine squad).

No see the problem is the assault marine squad will have trouble taking her down and in a protracted combat they will have problems since she will grind away at them. Believe me, I know exactly what a Cannoness can do vs. Assault Marines. Taking TWO of the Cannoni is what the real problem is though.



I strongly disagree. Points cost is not just about resilience, its about strengths and weaknesses. Sisters have a good save, good firepower and a chance to use Faith, but they are S3 T3, terrible in combat and their firepower is short-ranged. Checks and balances.

If Sisters were 13 or 14 points it would be laughable, as they would cost almost the same as a Space Marine, but lack the advantages of Space Marines and whilst retaining their current disadvantages.

I didn't say 13 or 14 points. I'm pretty sure I said 12 would be fair. Power Armor is a huge advantage over most armies, though these days when you really think about it hardly any armies are run anymore that don't have a bunch of 3+ Saves.

Slaaneshi Slave
30-01-2007, 16:15
10 Sisters cost over 200 points. They are expensive enough as it is.

As to the canoness... She can be taken out by one Assault Cannon round or three bolter rounds. I think you just have a regular oponent who is simply better than you. My regular WFB oponent is a lot better than me, I have yet to win a game against him in the 6 months I have played. Does this mean I call for nerfs to his armies? No, I improve my tactics, and try to come up with new ways to beat the stuffing out of him.

Voodoo Boyz
30-01-2007, 16:25
10 Sisters cost over 200 points. They are expensive enough as it is.

As to the canoness... She can be taken out by one Assault Cannon round or three bolter rounds. I think you just have a regular oponent who is simply better than you. My regular WFB oponent is a lot better than me, I have yet to win a game against him in the 6 months I have played. Does this mean I call for nerfs to his armies? No, I improve my tactics, and try to come up with new ways to beat the stuffing out of him.

Wow.

My friend and I, who play about every week, have swapped armies numerous times, and have a 50/50 win ratio with each other. Don't sit here and try and tell me that I just can't deal with the dual Cannonness because I'm a bad player.

I can "deal" with it just fine if I start bringing my own Cheddar with Marines or Orks and start optimizing on the same lines (taking units & combos that perform well and ignoring the rest). And yes, I'm saying things like 3 Exorcists or two Jump Pack Nuns is Cheese.

I don't fault sisters players for taking the Cannoess in that config, let alone two of them. In 40k as it is there's a ton of "broken" running around so you take the best of what you've got to compete. That doesn't mean that in a perfect world things shouldn't be toned down.

Slaaneshi Slave
30-01-2007, 16:47
How is it cheese to take the only anti-tank weaponry available to you? Thats like complaining that the Imperial Guard player has 3 Lemon Russ, or the Marine player has lascannons in his Tac squads. Especially when that anti-tank power can be taken out by a single autocannon round, only has one weapon, and is very random (which you seem to think makes it overpowered).

I could say more about your seeming lack of knowledge about SoB (An Evisorator on your Canonness? No reason not to take 2 of them? Battle Sisters cheaper overall than Marines?) but you do that well enough yourself.

bertcom1
30-01-2007, 16:48
You say you swap armies, and have a 50/50 win ratio.
How is that not balanced?

BaronDG
30-01-2007, 17:16
I agree. If you want more variation, this discussion should be how to improve the other units to the level of these "no-brainers".

intellectawe
30-01-2007, 17:40
I'd drop the Armour Save completely :eek: but give them Feel No Pain. So they essentially have a 4+ Invulnerable save. This makes sense, they don't have any real armour (trying to explain a ragged cloth as a 4+ save whilst Storm Trooper must wear full body armour is a joke), but they are so innured to pain and are driven by fanatical need to repent that they will shrug off damage.


That is the reason for their save. People assume saves are from only armor. No, that is subjective. The Repentia save IS their tolerance to pain, but it isnt supernatural enough to actually BE the Feel No Pain rule.

Just think of Repntia as having a weaker feel no pain and you cant go wrong.

god octo
30-01-2007, 20:39
Im a begginer at warhammer 40k and i picked SoB and witch hunters, as i liked the look of the army. Reading through the posts, i can see that some people obviously got beaten a lot by a sisters player. However, i think that sisters are costed just right. Becuase they are S and T 3, they cant stand up to heavy fire power or combat. Sm at S and T4, are uber combat mosters, but they can hold their own.

On the cannoness, i agree with a view put forwards earlier, that there should be a bigger gap between the palatine and Cannoness, but i dont think that the Cannoness is broken- she is really the only unit capable of holding her own in combat, and she should, being leader and all.

I love the random nature of the exorcist, even though i get tonnes of 1's! It makes the exorcist unique and im glad that it can be used against infantry and tanks- its really our only form of long range attack, unless you induct guard or SM.

To conclude, i think that our codex must be the most ballanced condex out of all of them. When (and if) we get an upgrade, i would like to see Repentia and Celestians made better and possibly a bigger ability gap/ points cost between a cannoness and palatine.

Minister
30-01-2007, 21:22
That is the reason for their save. People assume saves are from only armor. No, that is subjective. The Repentia save IS their tolerance to pain, but it isnt supernatural enough to actually BE the Feel No Pain rule.
Not the case. Armour save is armour, whether worn or integral.

They really are a terrible unit, and in need of significant improvment in order to make them viable.

Vet.Sister
30-01-2007, 22:07
Long barrelled, 36" range twin linked multimelta as the turret weapon instead of lascannon or autocannon.



So is this weapon too much overlap? It's somewhere between a lascannon and a plasma cannon. Mounted on an armor 13/11/10 rhino chassy?

Vet.Sister
30-01-2007, 22:13
As far as Deep Strike and Infiltrate go, they don't really go with the Inquisitorial mind set. They're not going to "sneak" up on an enemy OR just drop in on them.... The Inquisition has the "we will openly walk upto the Heretics while denouncing them, and give them the chance repent to the Emperor before we cleanse them with our holy weapons" kind of mind set.

Now having assassins and IG squads that infiltrate, that's a different story. Those would probably be seen as a necessary evil.

Minister
30-01-2007, 22:17
The Inquisition is an organisation which works within the shadows. they are spies and secret police first and foremost. Their Orders Militant are rather unsubtle, because when they are needed it means that all hopes of a quiet conclusion have gone to the dogs.

Infiltrating and deep strike suit the Inquisitorial units, stormtroopers included, but should not be a feature of the Sororitas.

Master Jeridian
30-01-2007, 23:33
I agree that Infiltrate and Deep Strike should not be in a Sisters army.

But the lack of that option explains why they are cheaper than Marines. No matter how rubbish you think an option is, having that option there gives a player a lot more choices- and they may find out an option wasn't rubbish after all.


Anyway, another Predator variant?
My only concern with a 36" range multi-melta is that GW will not mess with the multi-melta stats- too confusing for our tiny little minds.

I think a twin-linked multi-melta on a 13/11/10 tank, maybe with sponsons (heavy bolter or heavy flamer) would be cool. Cheaper than an Exorcist.
The fact it's vying with the Exorcist and Retributors for Heavy Support means it can't be spammed. It's relatively short-range for Heavy Support, etc. The Sisters style. It fits the bolter, flame and melta style.

I could be cheeky and make it a Transport(6), but then it would have to cost the same as an Exorcist at least, and suffer from the 'dual-purpose' syndrome.

QuixotesGhost
30-01-2007, 23:44
As far as the Cannoness goes, She has 1 less attack (because she'll be using two-handed weapons for decent strength), T3, I4, WS 4, and she costs pretty close to Marine HQ. I'm sorry she's balanced. In my experience, she goes down to a squad of guardsmen clubbing her in the face. She's extremely good against anything with a low number of high-quality attacks (like characters), but I finds she bites it hard against anything with a high number of low-quality attacks (like Guardsmen mobbing her).

The Exorcist is balanced for one reason, because of the randomness of it, you will not be able to capitalize on opportunities that you would've with more reliable tanks. For example, say you manage to get a shot at the side or rear armor of a MBT that's been bugging you all game, this one shot counts for a hell of a lot, and you roll a 1 for missiles. When you roll sixes it's often something you don't need six missiles for and when you roll a one it's often a shot that really counted. It'd be a MUCH better tank if it consistently shot 3 missiles a turn, but it doesn't. If they instituted the changes you mentioned, Voodoo, then I'd think it'd be overpowered.

What the Witchhunter's codex really needs is more options. That means toughening up the Freakshow side of the list. Here's what I would do:

Archo-Flagellants: When Stims are activated, Arcos move as Calvary - 12" charge.

Penitent Engines: Drop to 60 points. Move them out of the heavily contested HS spots OR allow each walker to operate independently.

Sisters Repentia: Hmmm.... Hmmmm.... Can't help ya.

Inquisitors: Discount on all war-gear and equipment. =I=s have the power to requisition almost any Imperial piece of equipment no matter how esoteric. Their rules should reflect this. =I=s should get power weapons at 5 points, Force weapons at 20. Anything that is in another codex, should be given to =I=s at much cheaper prices. Then you get a model in game that reflects what a =I= is in the fluff, a model kitted out with all sorts of interesting war-gear and equipment, but behind it all, is still a normal human with T3, S3. =I=s need better, cheaper, more interesting war-gear and equipment. =I=s should be the Inspector Gadgets of 40k. Also retinues and how they combine with mixed armor saves needs to be desperately reworked.

Vet.Sister
31-01-2007, 00:07
I also think the Inquisitor Lord should have access to a Teleport Homer (5pts).

Vet.Sister
31-01-2007, 00:17
Oh, and as for Holy Rage.... how about a leadership test? you fail = you rage. That should keep the PEs from running around randomly......

Nostro
31-01-2007, 01:12
Voodoo, I fail to see how using your assault marine example is relevant. If my canonness was once beaten in CC by three guardsmen, I wouldn't say ZOMG she is t3h cr4p in CC!!!
I agree with either the 0-1 on the Canonness, or addressing the gap wit the Palatine. For fluff reasons, I don't like to see too much top rank HQs in every skirmish.

As someone pointed out, she is good against low count high quality attacks but worse against high count crappy attacks. She is there to tie up CC nasties and prevent them from chewing through your force, who is in dire lack of CC punch. Don't play her game, don't let her engage your ICs.

Point-to-point, yes ISTs are not interesting compared to SoBs. But why do people take them? How is their cost justified? Someone already answered: options.
ISTs can have plasma guns and/or ride in Chimeras. Chimeras are very interesting, and people would take them as BSS transports more often than Rhinos if they had the option. The scarcity of Rhino riding ISTs is evidence of that.
Their cost is a reflection of that. If ISTs could only take meltas/flamers/storm bolters as specials and only ride Rhino, they'd be overcosted in comparison to SoBs and the no-brainer would be to take BSS.

I still don't understand how randomness is overpowering. As everybody already pointed out, it seems that you only have in mind high rolls at critical moments. Not being able to rely on a number of shots is a downside. 3 shots S8 AP1 is at least equal, if not better (even taking into account the fact that the average number goes from 3,5 to 3), and I wouldn't mind the change (with the same cost). Except that it takes away the fun factor, but it's not a big issue.
Taking two will still enable you to dish out a large quantity of mobile powerful firepower and taking three will still be impressive. Try the change in your friendlies and you'll see it wouldn't impair the tank's efficiency, just improve its reliability. Make it S9 if you fancy, but I think it's overpowering.

Basically, I agree with your changes (but not your reasons at all), except for the basic sister. She is fine as now. Yes she is resilient for her points cost, but it comes with downsides: no long range firepower, lack of CC punch.

Sisters are meant to be a close range shooty army, and as such need to have some resilience. Who said they should be less resilient than scouts? They are equipped with power armour for a reason: being able to take damage. Why wonder that this armour does the very job it is meant to do, and well?

One aspect does not explain the cost. What about my Stonewall trooper I just designed:
WS1 BS1 S1 T5 W1 I1 A1 Ld10 Sv2+ Inv. Armed with a laspistol only.
I wouldn't be afraid to make it 10 pts. Yes, he's very hard to kill but he can't do any damage. You shoudn't say "He is freaking harder to kill than a marine, he should cost at least 15 or 20 pts!!!"

I understand what you mean when you say that sisters have good stats where it matters.
Basically: "They are meant to shoot so have BS4. Not for CC so WS3. On average, the stats are not that good, so their cost is low. But still, they have good shooting stats and that's what they do well. They are underpriced for good shooters."
But IMHO S3 T3 are stats that matter, and much. The only thing is they don't pay for a WS4 they wouldn't use. Celestians do, and most people find them too expensive for what they can do. They still don’t do CC wonders. Why? S3 T3 A1...

bertcom1
31-01-2007, 01:17
Anyway, another Predator variant?
My only concern with a 36" range multi-melta is that GW will not mess with the multi-melta stats- too confusing for our tiny little minds.

I think a twin-linked multi-melta on a 13/11/10 tank, maybe with sponsons (heavy bolter or heavy flamer) would be cool. Cheaper than an Exorcist.
The fact it's vying with the Exorcist and Retributors for Heavy Support means it can't be spammed. It's relatively short-range for Heavy Support, etc. The Sisters style. It fits the bolter, flame and melta style.

I could be cheeky and make it a Transport(6), but then it would have to cost the same as an Exorcist at least, and suffer from the 'dual-purpose' syndrome.


Call the 36" Multimelta a Melta Cannon, and it's sorted.

It would look pretty badass as well. I've been playing about with the Predator turret, and putting it onto the front of a Sisters Rhino looks quite good. It doesn't rotate though, so I am going to build a complete new turret to fit. I am thinking of putting the glass dome on the rear of the vehicle.

Going to try Heavy flamer sponsons first.

bertcom1
31-01-2007, 01:28
Inquisition Storm Troopers are only 1pt cheaper than Sisters, because ISTs are overpriced.

Imperial Guard Storm Troopers get krak grenades as well for the same cost as ISTs, and also have options for infiltrating or deepstriking.

All Inquisition Storm Troopers should get infiltrate for no points cost.


I don't see why Sisters should be 12pts when Chaos Marines are 14pts.

Icarus
31-01-2007, 06:03
Call the 36" Multimelta a Melta Cannon, and it's sorted.

It would look pretty badass as well. I've been playing about with the Predator turret, and putting it onto the front of a Sisters Rhino looks quite good. It doesn't rotate though, so I am going to build a complete new turret to fit. I am thinking of putting the glass dome on the rear of the vehicle.

Going to try Heavy flamer sponsons first.

I love the sound of this, mostly because the geek in me loves that term "Melta Cannon"!! But something like that would seem to address the kind of thing people are asking for. A powerful but one shot weapon, backed up with some anti-infantry goodness, making it a nice average all-round tank to play tag with the heavy firepower of the Exorcist.

QuixotesGhost
01-02-2007, 03:56
If Sisters are a undercosted version of marines, why do you never see them allied to Marines? They can take two squads. Hmmm?

Btw, Faithful Sisters do cost ~12 points, you need to upgrade the SS to vet for 14 points to make them faithful.

Also I'd think a Tank with a Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter Turret and Dual Heavy Bolter Sponons would be pretty cool. It'd make Blessed Ammunition useful. Make it front armor 12, around 80-90 points and throw it in Fast Attack like Hellhounds.