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Red_Lep
28-01-2007, 16:26
I need the movement and the shooting in my list but don't know what to choose. I need the shooting from both but Outriders(to my knowledge) can't move and shoot but have better range, Pistoliers can move and shoot but only have 8" range so will probably get charged right after shooting. I have two 15 man blocks of swordsmen and a command unit of a Warrior Priest(I like them better) in a unit of 14 Greatswords at 500 and am expanding to 1000, any recommendations?

DeathlessDraich
28-01-2007, 16:41
The Move or Shoot rule is too restrictive for Outriders. Less points are needed to have Handgunners instead. As for their other functions, Pistoliers are better.

sandinista
28-01-2007, 17:24
Hold on, don't say that Outriders can be replaced with handgunners, thats apples and oranges: one outrider costs less than three handgunners but does an equal or better job, so thats that. And outriders and pistoliers have very different functions; I wouldn't take outriders if I planned on getting into close combat, and I wouldn't take pists if I only planned to shoot. They both might get the job done, but in different ways, pists by light shooting and charging, outriders by getting into a good position and blasting away.

NakedFisherman
28-01-2007, 17:27
Masses of Outriders can also be crammed into deployment zones. It's hard to field 60 Handgunners, but it's easy to field 20 Outriders.

Red_Lep
28-01-2007, 17:32
Since I was planning on focusing on CC and not shooting I wanted Pistoliers but was worried that with their short range would get charged and break and thats all she wrote. I am thinking that I will go with them though because they fit with my tactics better.

Elcampbello
28-01-2007, 18:09
Spend the points on more swords, take them in 20's as a minimum.

Red_Lep
28-01-2007, 18:16
Spend the points on more swords, take them in 20's as a minimum.

I am when I go up to 1000.

Phoenix_331
28-01-2007, 18:28
I don't think pistoliers are that great, since if they shoot (and that's why you want them I suppose) they get probably charged, but if you want to use them in cc you should better take knights or something. If you only want to choose between pistoliers and outriders, I'd say Outriders, since they are good in the thing were they are for: shooting masses of bullets from a safe distance. But than again I'm not a great warhammer general (I only played a few battles a year ago, and than stopped for a wile, but now I'm coming back to the game) and I don't play Empire, but this is my opinion anyway.

NakedFisherman
28-01-2007, 18:35
Pistoliers move up and fire. When they get charged, they flee. They then just need to rally to be able to move up and fire again.

Repeat as necessary.

Red_Lep
28-01-2007, 18:42
Pistoliers move up and fire. When they get charged, they flee. They then just need to rally to be able to move up and fire again.

Repeat as necessary.

Thanks for the tactic.

Axel
28-01-2007, 18:44
There is so much difference between the two that it hardly makes sense to ask this question. Do you take helbardiers or mages?

Pistoliers are light cavalry. You can get them easily into the back of your opponent and pester the hell out of him. You only charge them into cc with war-machines, other ligth stuff or as support, usually they move and shoot.
Outriders are mobile line troops. They have a base BF of 4 and thus 3 when firing multiple shots. 10 of them give you 30 shots, and when the enemy closes in they can turn, move and turn again all in one movement phase. Light cavalry can do lots of weired things - or give them barding and thus some real protection (compared to handgunners) This is the only unit where even the hochlandrifle at BS 5 may pay off.

If you can bear to spare the special slots, take both. It seems that all the real good Empire troops are cramped in the special slots this edition.

Steel_Legion
28-01-2007, 18:57
pistoliers, 2 shots with no mods for long range etc, plus they look better

Keller
28-01-2007, 19:59
Both units are quite useful, though I prefer Outriders. Outriders are great to move into position, lay down a hail of fire, then relocate to attack other units.

Pistoliers aren't as useful as they used to be, since they can't use their pistols in combat anymore. However, they are still quite useful to harry enemy units by staying close, firing into flanks, and engaging lighter enemy units. As noted above, close with the enemy, fire, flee, rally and do it all again.

Red_Lep
28-01-2007, 20:04
I've decided to go with two units of 5 Pistoliers with a musician to help rally when they flee. Thanks for all the help.

Mephistofeles
28-01-2007, 20:46
Wait a moment now, the rule "light cavalry" only lets you make free changes of formation, not free turns, wheels or maneuvers, right? Or have I gotten it wrong?

Steel_Legion
28-01-2007, 21:29
fast cav to do whatever the hell they feel like! :D so long as one model moves no more than 16"

Mephistofeles
28-01-2007, 21:38
Are you sure about that? They can wheel, maneuver, turn facing and that for free?

Surely they can't?

*edit* haha, to bad that was my 1000th post...I was hoping for something more glorious than asking a rules question I ought to know :P

Poisonpen
28-01-2007, 21:58
Pistoliers are my favorite, though outriders have a certain charm about them...

The main advantage of the pistoleir is to move-and-shoot and then flee (a much more viable tactic now as they have access to musicians), rally, move, and shoot again (due to rules for fast cav, with a healthy dose of free reform for good measure). Another advantage is the ability to march and fire as well as having 360 degree LOS for shooting purposes. Compound this with the fact they are cheaper than outriders and do not get movement penalties and... and well, they look cool too. :p

What I see alot is how people complain that they lost their ability to do massive CC damage, yet they managed to become one of the best shooty units in the empire list IMO. March block and 2-shots each? Yes please. ;)

Not to say outriders are bad or anything! Far from it. The fact they are smaller base-wise helps if you have a horde, their models are nothing to scoff at, and they benefit from some of the fast cav rules... but since many of those rules rely on movement a lot of the fast cav ability is replaced (not wasted) by superior range and firepower... plus a BS5 longrifle or Grenade launcher is nothing to scoff at. That is better than an engineer. :wtf:... but I'll take it!

Vladimir Deathblade
28-01-2007, 22:41
I genweraly find pistoliers more useful, as I love to harry the rear ranks of the animy line, and generaly pester the hell out of them, wuth all those juicy shots. I know people complain about the changes to them, but in my opinion, the points cost nw reflects their abilities much better.

Outriders on the otherehand, are a bit harder to use, as they need to be stationary, but can give off a cracking volly.

Overall, I find the distraction of having the pistoliers running round behind the lines much more useful. They don't get charged if you are carful, and even if they do turn round to try to deal with them, you can run round, tying them up for turn after turn with one fairly cheap unit. Oh, and you've gotta love that repeater pistol :)

Atrahasis
28-01-2007, 23:54
Range should not be on anyone's list of concerns for pistoliers - they have the same effective shooting range as outriders (24"). They can place their fire at the full range of that 24" without any penalties, unlike outriders, who suffer penalties for range.

You get more shots from outriders, and have the option of the HLR and Grenade Launcher at BS5, which is nice, but as has been pointed out, Empire really needs its special slots and I prefer the cheap, mobile pistoliers to the more expensive, slower (due to their need to remain stationary to be useful) outriders.

Red_Lep
29-01-2007, 02:03
Range should not be on anyone's list of concerns for pistoliers - they have the same effective shooting range as outriders (24"). They can place their fire at the full range of that 24" without any penalties, unlike outriders, who suffer penalties for range.

You get more shots from outriders, and have the option of the HLR and Grenade Launcher at BS5, which is nice, but as has been pointed out, Empire really needs its special slots and I prefer the cheap, mobile pistoliers to the more expensive, slower (due to their need to remain stationary to be useful) outriders.

Pistols have an 8" range so how 24"?

Crazy Harborc
29-01-2007, 03:13
Pistols have an 8" range so how 24"?

Pistoliers can move up to 16 inches and shoot. Their pistol range is 8". Outriders cannot move and shoot in the same turn. They move up to 16" and wait to shoot their next turn OR don't move and do shoot.

Don't forget that pistols come in braces, both can fire. They do not take penalties for moving and shooting or long range.Thats two shots per trooper. Yes, multiple shots do carry a -1 for the second/additional shot after the first. First shot hits on a 4+, the second on a 5+

The Outriders pay a long range penalty. They are move OR shoot. At longe range their 3 shot handguns and BS4 is -1, so hits on a 4 at long range. The additional shots hit on 5 or 6.

I like the outriders. I've been using two units of 8 each, with musicians (176 each). With their BS4, the first 8 shoots hit on 4+ at long range. The additional shots hit on 5+. 8 dice at fifty, fifty to hit. 16 shots to at a 1in 3 chance.

This coming week, I'll use one unit of each.

Red_Lep
29-01-2007, 03:41
No move and shoot penalty? Score, but where does it say that?

Poisonpen
29-01-2007, 04:29
Rules for pistols, logically located in the rulebook. There is a multiple shot negative since they have a brace of pistols though... but Crazy Harborc went into all the details about that.

Red_Lep
29-01-2007, 16:05
Rules for pistols, logically located in the rulebook. There is a multiple shot negative since they have a brace of pistols though... but Crazy Harborc went into all the details about that.

Thanks, I guess I just overlooked it when I read the rules.

Cloud Strife
29-01-2007, 17:03
Don't forget that pistols come in braces, both can fire. They do not take penalties for moving and shooting or long range.Thats two shots per trooper. Yes, multiple shots do carry a -1 for the second/additional shot after the first. First shot hits on a 4+, the second on a 5+

Just a minor note - if you use a multiple shot weapon then both shots (or however many shots you are firing) all suffer the -1 penalty for multiple shots.

As for how I stand on this I think that both have their advantages and disadvantages, but I think whenever I get around to sorting out my Empire army then I think I'll be going for Outriders as they give me the ability to have a much more combat orientated selection of core troops, and can put out the same firepower as Handgunners while being able to redeploy if in danger or to get better shots the next turn.

boogle
29-01-2007, 18:49
does it actually say in the rulebook that a brace of pistols has the multiple shot rule?

anyway 5 pistoliers with Outrider with Repeater Pistol and Musician = 114 points for 12 shots at 24", with a possible -1 to hit penalty

5 Outriders With Outrider and Musician = 129 for 15 shots at 24 with a -1 to hit penalty at 24"

it would seem to me that the outriders just edge it even over the manouvreablilty of the pistoliers

Mephistofeles
29-01-2007, 19:39
What, does rules for multiple shots are nothing I've ever heard, it's a simple -1penalty to all shots if you fire multiple shots, not a -1 for every shot after the first, cumulative and applied to each shot separatly? Or am I wrong? *goes off to check rulebook*

Mephistofeles
29-01-2007, 20:01
By the way, just checked and there is only a static -1 penalty for shooting several times, regardless of the number of shots. You can also choose to fire just one shot, in which case you don't get the -1 modifier...

loveless
29-01-2007, 20:07
"[Weapons with multiple shots] can either fire once without penalty, or as many times as indicated in their rules with an additional -1 to hit penalty."
-Warhammer Rulebook, Page 55

I'd say that you get the -1 applied to all shots, so Pistoliers hit on 5's with both shots, Outriders at long range hit on 5's with all shots

Trunks2560
30-01-2007, 01:45
Don't you also get a penalty for moving as well? Fast cav gets 360 arch and can shoot when it marches but I don't see where the don't suffer a penalty for moving. That would mean that most of the time you hit on 6's as you -1 for multi shot and -1 for moving.

TheWarSmith
30-01-2007, 01:57
First off, there's statistically NO!!! reason not to shoot multiple times with these units


they do 2 totally different things.

Outriders are mobile weapons platforms which put out a MINIMUM of 15 S4 BS3-4(taking into account -1 for multi shot). These units should NEVER hit combat. I'd recommend taking medium sized units(7-9) which will be able to fan out and put out a devestating amount of firepower. Their key flaw is that they basically need to set themselves up.

Pistoliers fulfill a different role. They are good combat flankers with their 2 hand weapons and a decent 5+ save for fast cav which is pretty good. They can't take a standard which makes sense, and isn't really a factor because you'd be nuts to give them a standard anyway. Their shooting is capable of taking out very small units or being annoyance factors to tougher units.

I was surprised when i saw the book to see that they are 2 different unit entries. Earlier speculation was that they'd simply be a "pay X points to upgrade to outriders)

What i find odd is that all that armour they have only counts as light. It's *******' full plate mail.

chivalrous
30-01-2007, 02:12
"[Weapons with multiple shots] can either fire once without penalty, or as many times as indicated in their rules with an additional -1 to hit penalty."
-Warhammer Rulebook, Page 55

I'd say that you get the -1 applied to all shots, so Pistoliers hit on 5's with both shots, Outriders at long range hit on 5's with all shots

I'm wondering why this is suddenly an issue?
Dark Elf repeater crossbows have had the same rule for the last 12 years (at least) and it's only in the last few months that I've seen anyone have any difficulty understanding it.

the -1 applies to all shots, not just the extra fired, as has already been mentioned and there is only one -1 applied whether you've got multiples shots x2, miltiple shots x3 or multiple shots x 1,000,000.

Of course I could be nasty and mention the relative IQ of elves to men but since I play both I wouldn't be doing myself any favours:angel:



Pistoliers fulfill a different role. They are good combat flankers with their 2 hand weapons and a decent 5+ save for fast cav which is pretty good. They can't take a standard which makes sense, and isn't really a factor because you'd be nuts to give them a standard anyway. Their shooting is capable of taking out very small units or being annoyance factors to tougher units.

Pistoliers no longer get any benefit from having two hand weapons.
That rule is strictly for models on foot.

Mike3791
30-01-2007, 04:09
Pistoliers-multiple shots hit on 5s
Outriders- multiple shots at long range hits on 5s

Once the enemy gets into charging range of your outriders you will probably get one volley at close range before you are forced to flee or move, making your outriders not able to shoot for a turn. I like the pistoliers because they can always shoot(assuming they rally of course)

rules for pistols are clearly on pg 56 and 57

Drogmir
30-01-2007, 05:48
Perhaps Outriders with pistols?

TheWarSmith
30-01-2007, 06:05
I dont' think that's an option for regular outriders. Only for the outrider captain, who I'd point out sits at a mean BS6.

I forget all the changes about braces of pistols, but how do they function in close combat now?

Delicious Soy
30-01-2007, 11:40
They don't function as anything other than hand weapons.

Mephistofeles
30-01-2007, 15:17
Precisely, they are hand weapons, and since the pistoliers have two of them, they would get +1 attack if they were on foot, which they sadly are not.

They are still decent flankers, and if not flanking, should NEVER be in combat anyway.

By the way, the outrider champion has BS5.

Dalanshin
30-01-2007, 19:21
They are both sweet sets of models and nice variety to an Empire army.

Pistoliers are more of a threat to the enemy advance.

Outriders are a bit harder to use because they can't move and fire, but a patient general could get good results.
In other words, the move or fire can be somewhat restrictive with the outriders (you'll only have 3-4 turns of shooting if you also maneuver to avoid threats / flank or circle to the rear of the enemy / get to an advantageous shooting position).

That's my thoughts, but not experience. I still have not had the chance to see or field them in a game just yet. Probably within the week I'll get that chance.

-Dalanshin

Blagrot Squigbreff
30-01-2007, 19:29
I've been thinking about the Outriders more reading this, does anyone else think they may be at least a partial substitute for the Helblaster protecting the warmachines from skirmishers and similar.
They have the 360' fire arc and the quantity of shots will help negate the skirmish penalty.

Mephistofeles
30-01-2007, 19:32
I think they might be good protecting your machines/shooties, but I'm not sure if they are a substitute to the helblaster, they have so incredible different battlefield roles.

Blagrot Squigbreff
30-01-2007, 19:52
Yeah that was a poor choice of words I think, I only meant that they would be good for driving away skirmishers the way I used to with the Helblaster.

Keller
30-01-2007, 20:55
I've been having great success with my Outriders. I've been running them in units of 10, which has proven devestating to enemy units. Their lack of mobility hasn't been much of an issue. The ability to shoot 360 with them helps take care of any threats that would try to slip out of your firing arc, something quite problematic to move-or-fire weapons. With larger units, they don't haveto flee charges, they just riddle the oncoming attackers to drive them away. The only real drawback, compared to Pistoliers, is that they do not control enemy movements by march blocking, baiting, and drawing enemies where you want them.

Mephistofeles
30-01-2007, 21:12
360 firing arc?

Crazy Harborc
30-01-2007, 21:38
While they have a 360 line of sight ability, members of the unit can and do block that line of sight. Not as good as skirmishers when it comes to a 360 line of sight.

ffarsight
31-01-2007, 09:28
Precisely, they are hand weapons, and since the pistoliers have two of them, they would get +1 attack if they were on foot, which they sadly are not.

They are still decent flankers, and if not flanking, should NEVER be in combat anyway.

By the way, the outrider champion has BS5.

HI, i think this is not correct, donīt have the rulebook here, but i think they give 2 attacks to pistoliers in close combat even mounted. double check that.

Atrahasis
31-01-2007, 13:59
HI, i think this is not correct, donīt have the rulebook here, but i think they give 2 attacks to pistoliers in close combat even mounted. double check that.

You think wrong. Pistoliers are in no way special when it comes to close combat, and so get 1 attack like anyone else.

chivalrous
31-01-2007, 18:03
HI, i think this is not correct, donīt have the rulebook here, but i think they give 2 attacks to pistoliers in close combat even mounted. double check that.

I'm afraid when we got the new army book, pistoliers lost all of their special rules except for Fast cavalry.
The fusillade rule that made them the exception to the rule for fighting with two weapons wile mounted no longer exists.
Hand weapon rules state that you may only use two in combat if you're on foot, which pistoliers clearly aren't.