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Badgobbla
05-04-2005, 09:37
Heya all,

I recently started an Ogre Kingdoms army and I would like to have a thread running about the tactics (if they even exist) on how to play with these big baddies.

I started with buying the army boxed set and have painted about 850 points worth of it. I plan to play against our storemanager next saturday with everything I have painted up till then, so I won't have a butcher which may prove to be problematic. But maybe I can persuade my opponent to play a special scenario of some kind.

So, for saturday I'll certainly be playing the following:
- 1 Bruiser with a brace of handguns
- 4 Ogre Bulls with full command (and lookout gnoblar) armed with those special extra hand weapons (the name escapes me now)
- 4 Ironguts with full command (including the mandatory lookout)
- 3 Yhetees (I might upgrade one of them to a greyback, but I'm not sure yet)
- 8 Gnoblar Trappers

If I'm lucky I'll be able to paint my Hunter with his Sabretusks and another unit of Ogre Bulls by saturday, if so they're going in there.

I'm not a real big fan of lots of magic items, so I'm not sure whether to include them, maybe just to bump my points total up to 1500 points.

So if anyone has played with or against the ogres, this is the place to rant about them.

Gobbles.

skavenguy13
05-04-2005, 20:59
the 5+ ward save is a must! Otherwise, the magic items aren't that appealing to me. Maybe the gnoblar stone on a bruiser. However, magic banners are really good.

And I suggest you drop the champions. 20 points for only 1 extra attack isn't worth it IMO. Maybe one in the units with bosses, just in case.

User Name
06-04-2005, 02:36
Champoins are good on the ironguts, everybody likes an extra s6(or is it 7?) even if it dose cost 20 points

Make sure you can deploy the ironguts where it is going to count, like right in the middle of your battle line, bulls just dont have the strength to deal with hard units (I play chaos). I was able to tie my opponents only unit of ironguts up for 3 or 4 turns with my 12 chosen warriors and they held to the last man, by that time i had a rear and flank charge set up with chosen knights and minotaurs... needless to say it was a total waste of his best unit (we were only playing 1000 points)

The ironguts are hard and need to charge in head long and get stuck in where they can do the most damage or els it isnt too difficult to tie them up long enough to make them useless

skavenguy13
06-04-2005, 20:06
I forgot: empire shooting is EXTREMELY nasty. S4 armor piercing shots mean you don't get a save whatsoever. So, a unit of 10-15 handgunners will easily kill an ogre each turn. And the helblaster is soooo nasty too! imagine 10 S4 AP shots each turn. That's like 2+ dead ogres per shot... at long range!
:eek: :eek: :eek:

Artemis_Quinn
07-04-2005, 00:09
Personally I have only played against ogres once, but there is one thing I have found from that game..... Gnoblars are invaluable! Clanrat units of mine were standing against ogres because my ranks and numbers more or less canceled out the fact that the ogres were eating rats each turn. The he charged me with the gnoblars and the rats couldn't take it. So, I know you really don't have any choice to use the gnoblars for this game (because gnoblars must be a pain to get a whole unit painted). But for the future I suggest you have one unit of Gnoblars (at least) for each ogre unit. That's what I'd do if I played an ogre army :D.

Also, about the unit champion in an ogre unit not being worth it...... I think they are fully worth it personally. Just the idea that you can challenge lesser unit's champions on a bull charge (so your unit can do some damage while your champion goes in for overkill). Think about it like that and they are worth every point. or at least to me they are.

That's my 2 cents on the ogre kingdoms, I wish you luck in your many encounters that lay ahead.

Ozorik
07-04-2005, 01:00
Handguns only get 2 turns of firing though before they get introduced to large pecies of sharp metal and while the hell blaster MAY cause a lot of damage it is just as likely to blow up after its first shot. Just dont hang around in a killing zone.

Badgobbla
07-04-2005, 05:40
because gnoblars must be a pain to get a whole unit painted
Hmm, not really as I played an O&G-army before, so I'm used to painting lots of little insignificant models :p

But, all things aside, I do intend to use at least 2 units of Gnoblars (2 x 20 only cost 80 points!) in my army.

skavenguy13
07-04-2005, 20:54
(because gnoblars must be a pain to get a whole unit painted)
Well, that's only 20+ models, and they're much smaller than normal troops.
And as I will probably be starting the gnoblar army (if it gets official). Now THIS might be a pain :o

warlord hack'a
14-04-2005, 21:18
regarding Ogre kingdoms, try one of the following:

use a unit of say 9 or 10 ogres (10!!, yes 10). rank them up 4 wide and two spare in the third row. Now the enemy will kill 2 with shooting so you will end up with a charge of 8 ogres. You will have 4 hits with a +1 on the strength and 12 or 13 attacks with lots of strength. You will kill enough enemies to win the combat round even with his ranks (he has +2 more ranks than you but you have +1 for outnumber).
AS SOON AS YOU WIN COMBAT HE WILL AUTOBREAK!!!! because you cause fear!! So it is bye bye enemy unit, you pursue, run him down with a bit of luck, and you are behind enemy lines..
Of course, if he is lucky with shooting you might be bugered but you are also buggered with two units of 5 then.

Most people tend to spread their army thin because they are afraid of flank charges (and righteously so), but The ogre kingdowm is not meant to be spread thin, It is meant to run completely to one side of the battlefield with their move 6, then eat up anything that is there before the enemies other half will reach them and then turn to face the other half.

Or, as noted before, you use the ogres in combination with big blocks of gnobblars. The gnobblars provide the rank and outnumer bonus (and an easy target but that is something else), the ogres are more like the units generals or the chariots of an army.

Just look at an ogre as three special troopers into one: he has 3 attacks, 3 wounds, high S, high T, very low armour save and US 3, this sound to me lie three normal models into one doesn't it? 3 models also have 3 wounds, us3, 3 attacks etc. And do you think it is smart to build up your army using units of 12 models, I don't (off course a unit of 4 ogres is better because they can have 9 attacks in the front row as long as their bases touch a little with the enemy front row of 5 models).

And yes, 10 ogres are expensive, but I, as an O&G player, see some very great difficulties in defeating this unit, especially if some yetis and gorgers eat my artillery in turn 2 or 3..

Artemis_Quinn
14-04-2005, 21:59
Warlord I hate to tell you but the unit you just decribed would get murdered before combat. After you dump 400 points into it there is little to no point in taking it anymore because it attracts so much fire that it would never make it across the battle feild in enough pieces to be of any worry to anybody (except maybe a chaos army without any significant combat units to worry you *irrepressable chuckle*). Take a regular unit of my clanrats for instance. 25 models strong, no command, and a ratling gun or (against ogres) warpfire thrower. I have things shooting at it for the entire game, so let's say that I am extremely unlucky and only kill two, and a little of a third one up to the point in which you confront my clanrats and am ready to charge them the next turn with your really nasty bull charge (I would have set-up in my own backfeild against ogres). During my turn I would be able to definitely do two things to your ogres, first, move the clanrats forward within 6" of your fronk rank, no more bull chrage bonuses :p . Then I would unload on you with my warfire thrower (or ratling gun if I was really that stupid). So say I hit and wound three ogres (pretty probable since you've got a fairly large unit and I get that nice flame template), the warpfire thrower does D3 wounds, so we'll say total I get 6 (that's an average a crappy and a good roll), two ogres down! But take intpo account that any unit taking a single casualty from a warpfire thrower has to take a panic test :D. There's a descent chance your unit could run then. (with the ratling gun we'll say I stop at 10 shots. 5 wounding and you still lose 2 guys (since we'll say I had at least one wound on your back rank guy by the time you made it as far as you did down the feild, just this way you don't have to take the panic test. :( ). Well, say that they stick around, charge me! I've got support units to both flanks and ranks and numbers on my side. When 6 ogres charge by themselves it generally doesn't turn out good without a strategy. Well, here goes combat....."You will have 4 hits with a +1 on the strength and 12 or 13 attacks with lots of strength" Well, you'll have 13 attacks all right (sacred number of the horned rat!) but sorry, no bonuses to strength. well, half hit (we'll say 6 since it's easier to work with). 2/3 wound, so 4 wounds. Then I make 2 saves (just for argument's sake). That puts you 3 up in resolution (since I don't take standards). Well, my attacks back are like a gnoblar trying to be the new tyrant, ain't gonna happen. But whereas you have +3 to your resolution I have +4 (ranks and outnumbering). You still lose.

The point is, many smaller units are smarter since I have to spread my shots. and smarter still is the gnoblar approach since I know the usefulness of the gnoblars I have to "forget" about the ogres, letting them hit me almost intact while I try to freak out some wee ones. And with just ogres I think it's better to have 2 bruised units hit an enemy formation then one decimated one that the whole focus of your army was in. But that's just me.

warlord hack'a
15-04-2005, 15:19
artemis, what you describe can happen, but that will happen also if there are smaller units of ogres. And he will charge you in turn 2, especially if you move forward 6". So you get one shot (and maybe you can stand and shoot although I doubt that) and the chance is he will outnumber you. If he uses two units then he for sure will not get anywhere besause his numbers are far too low and you have far too many troopers. Besides, you are comparing the strongest army in the game (ratsies, lizardmen and maybe chaos are a bit overpowered in my opinion) to the weakest in my opinion. What do you envision would happen to two units of 5 ogres in the same situation? Off course two times 5 is also good if you combine their charges against one enemy unit. Maybe two times 5 is even better now that I think of it..

Artemis_Quinn
15-04-2005, 19:03
2 Times 5 is always better than one times ten. You recieve so many tactical options whn you split it up into two smaller units and they both draw arrow attention away from each other.

And I believe you are mistaken in thinking I will only get 2 turns in which to unload on your massive unit. I get three, when faceing ogres never set-up as close to the ogres as I can. I'll set-up in the back of my deplotment zone allowing for 3 turns to shoot at you.

Also, since you feel the skaven are an unfair army to pit the ogres against as are lizzies and chaos I will run my little example with a regular everyday unit of swordsmen, with two detatchments and a great cannon (the detatchments are ten spearmen and 5 handgunners, also the swordsmen run at 25 total). This is an equivalent points value.

Pretty much lets say that you've charged my unit but this time instead of things working as they did with the clanrats now your ogres are already down 5 models (3 from the cannon each turn and two from the handgunners thus far and on the charge, i believe this is about fair) You would do the same wounds on the swordsmen as before but this time I'll give you the third guy since you are combating a much meaner unit than the clanrats. So we'lkl say that between the flank charging spearmen and the swordsmen I score no wounds, 3 wounds, no, you get 4 even. It doesn't really matter. I've got 3 ranks and a flank that cancels out your bonuses and I've also got numbers on you still. allowing me to win combat by one. :p

So, don't blame this on poor army to fight against, it's more that enemy armies tend to have ways of defending themselves that is to blame, and darn them for that!

The gnoblar apporach is the best though, buy 2 five man ogre squads with only standards (maybe ironfists) and a unit of 30 gnoblars to escort them down the feild. Use the ogres to draw charges or coordinate charges between them and the gnoblars so they don't get butchered with resolution. This is they way to play ogre kingdoms, let your look-out gnoblar be your guide.

Snoozer
16-04-2005, 21:28
I think the gnoblar approch is the best as artemis already told, because I have played 3 games against a OK player and winned 2 of them with massacre (the first time was a drawn) just because he did not have any gnoblars, he never could get enough combat resolution to break my orcs simply by killing (I have 25 orcs at minimum in a unit), you really need the greenskin mass (meaning gnoblars not orcs, just to be clear).

warlord hack'a
24-04-2005, 20:48
which goes to illustrate my earlier point: OK are underpowered.

Besides Artemis, a smart OK player would not charge the main unit but the detachments, outnumber those and run those down, thus ending up in the flanks or behind the main block of swordsmen. No one in his right mind (mind you, a lot of troops are NOT in their right mind ;-)) would charge a big unit of empire with detachments big enough to negate rank bonus/gain flanking bonus..

And three shots with a cannon will not kill 3 ogres: first you have to have LOS and this might not be the case for 3 rounds. second you have to roll with a 1/6 chance of misfire, then roll again with 1/6 chance of the ball sticking in the ground, then you have 1/6 chance of rolling a 1 to wound and then you have 1/3 chance of rolling less than 3 on a d6 for wounds (even if you roll 6 wounds you will only kill one ogre..). So per round you have a 5/6*5/6 chance to hit*5/6 (wound)*4/6 (rolling 3-6 wounds)= 40% chance to kill one ogre. So in 3 rounds you have had a total misfire chance (meaning: the chance that you have had a misfire in one or more of these rounds) of 50% (3*1/6), a total change of having a non bouncing ball of a bit less than 50% (3*5/6 (the change of not-misfiring per round)*1/6 (the change of having a dud), etc. Ergo sum, you will not kill one ogre per canon shot per turn. But I still agree that two units of 5 is better than one unit of 10, especially after the calculation I have just done..

mangustheix
24-04-2005, 21:51
Warlord, I have to disagree with you there. People do seem to think that OK are underpowered, but I believe that is because of lack of understanding of how to use them. Most people think that because they are big and strong that they can just charge ahead. If fact, they are quite fragile units they need to be far more tactical and coordinate with flank charges and use their specialist units to good effect. I believe that two units are going to be better than one since you can organise a flank charge. this will discount the enemies rank and also give you flank charge bonus.

As for shooting vunralbility, two units will be far better than one. either one unit is going to be destroyed and the other untouched, or they will both take minor casulaties.

Units like handgunners are always going to be bad, but with two units they will have to choose a unit, leaving the other alone.

Cannons are going to be far more deadly to the large unit than two small units.

Oguleth
07-05-2005, 21:44
Big unit vs small unit issue:

I don`t know what you guys play against, but in the games I`ve played, my big bad unit (about 8, with tyrant in it) seldom gets to do anything. In general, people just ignore it, and march block it if they get the chance. Result? A lot of points eaten up while they can do shitall about it. That`s a few hundred points taken out of the battle, while the opponent gets to take on the rest of the army with almost everything he has. If it`s an infantry army, and he isn`t getting crappy units like Chaos Warriors or something similiar which costs a lot of points and is slow, he can also just flee from such units with his not so expensive ones, and perhaps get in charges of his own with other units. And against the Empire scenario, sounds like choosing between getting beaten in combat (charging the parent unit) and getting next to no points, and possibly a flee reaction and ending up in bad positions (charging detachments) is not a choice about getting something good out of a unit... Not to mention the shooting aspect, a bit of "no movement" spells and/or damage spells on top of shooting will quickly take down a lot of ogres and cause panic after a while... So, first thing I`m going to do is to get a couple of more ogres and make 2 bull units out of the big unit. (2 units of 4 or 5 bulls).

I don`t like taking champs. Especially on the bulls; 20 pts for one extra attack.. Especially when the model already has 4. If you skip two champs, you can get a gnoblar unit for the same price.

Only units that have worked well in my army has to be the gnoblar units. Cheap and don`t have to get good dicerolls to do their role. I even manage to kill something every now and then with the sharp stuff (for some reason, the hit ratio tends to be higher when they shoot at fleeing stuff...), which is nice aswell.

Closest to being effective among the ogre units has to be the Leadbelchers for me. Since they can do stuff that do not involve having to charge and end up having to deal with having people flee and then up in deep trouble. Shooting down annoying fast cav, big birdies like griffons that wants to take out an ogre unit each turn and so on.

The rest of the units only works against stuff with lots of infantry that`s expensive or unable to flee, like high elf spearmen with heroes in them, or zombies and suchlike. Knights just kill them when they charge, a lot of solo heroes (annointed with Venom Sword being my worst nightmare so far, on a steed of slaanesh..) can take on ogre units alone, and break them since they lack the cr, and die as easily as orcs when people hack them up, and so on. I guess the army is heaven to play against for non-engagement armies since OK armies don`t have anything to deal with such things. It`s just endless marchblocking, shooting and magic, and when the gnoblars and belchers are gone, you can`t do anything about it.

In other words, it`s small bull units, gnoblars and leadbelchers for me...

Over_Tyrant
01-11-2008, 01:16
Well well well, i play ogre kingdoms and to very well, even against un-dead.

Just a quick not on the hunter, he sucks can't ever join units out there by himself just a waist of points there is much better stuff out there that will do what he can do.

Every army needs Gnoblar's and leadbelchers, and this is why if there is no flying then let them do what they do best shoot thinks soft up the enemy. if there is flying put the Gnoblar, and Leadbeclhers behind your lines so when the flying dose show up behind you, you blast them. and if there still alive you charge the next turn.

maneaters rock put them in a 3 man unit with your tyrant with ether thundermace or tenderizer and watch the enemy die.

and start using rhinox cavalry its hall of heroes legle.

i don't want to give out all my secretes so i will stop there