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Deng Ham
29-01-2007, 18:34
I'm having a bit of doubt wheter to ban this rule in the league I run. It is so game ruining to get an IP called upon you. And it can pritty much loose you the game. And I don't like the games to be desidet becouse of a turn marker.
But on the other hand I see the need for a rule of this sort. Deliberatly forgetting to move the marker can give you exstra turns. And that is even worse.

So what is your view of this rule?

I'm also considering to do a twist on the rule. That each coach get one warning IP. If a IP is called upon him, he wil turn his turn marker upside down. And the next time he is called for an IP. The IP is treeted as normal.

Autobot HQ
29-01-2007, 20:07
Easy answer: Have players move their opponents marker. Believe me, people remember turn markers when it's not their own turns.

A-HQ
Lord of Warseer Blood Bowl[dice0]

Darkson
29-01-2007, 21:47
Just ban the IP rule. It's a decent rule to use when teaching the game, or when the coach has only played a few games, but once people get used to the rules, it can cause a lot of bad blood when called (obviously depending on your groups make-up - some people/groups find it hilarious).

It's one of the first rules on our "house rule"sheet, and has made it onto every house rule sheet, regardless of the version the rules were based off. Also, many (or most) non-GW BB tournaments rule IP out.

f2k
31-01-2007, 07:44
When I play with my friends we never enforce the Illegal Procedure rule. Nobody forgets the turn marker deliberately, and we all feel that the game should be won and lost on the field – not in the dugout…

Jambo
31-01-2007, 13:32
Um, I might be wrong but I thought with the LRB5 that the illegal procedure rule had been changed. IIRC an illegal procedure call makes you lose a reroll and if you have none then the opponent gains one. This has always seemed sufficiently harsh to me, just house rule this if you're using an older version of the rules.

Ophidian
31-01-2007, 17:25
I don't like suffering a turnover when I'm called for IP.

I also don't like fumbling the ball when I roll a 1, so I just pretend I didn't

Deng Ham
31-01-2007, 17:35
You can use a reroll to take your turn. But that is that turns reroll. You might be right about oponent gaining a reroll if you have none left. But that can stil be used. If there is 2 turns left and you oponent still have reroll left. You can deliberatly forget the marker. As it will make no difference if he IP you or not.

Quin 242
31-01-2007, 17:37
Sarcasm is such an underrated art.

Thank you Ophidian

Ardathair
02-02-2007, 06:54
[QUOTE=Darkson;1255447]It's a decent rule to use when teaching the game, or when the coach has only played a few games, but once people get used to the rules, it can cause a lot of bad blood when called (obviously depending on your groups make-up - some people/groups find it hilarious).[QUOTE]

Actually I've found the opposite to be true. What other game penalizes you for not moving the turn marker before any of your pieces. Players new to Blood Bowl have been the ones most perturbed by the invocation of that rule, experienced Blood Bowlers have remembered themselves calling others on it and realize that they should have known better (on the rare occasion they forget). As you said different goups respond differently.

Find out what those playing in your league want, and use that as your guide line.

P.S. Since turns alternate and you can easily determine who gets the last turn of the half, (the player who did not get the first turn), so either each player gets an extra turn or neither one does. That is a simple check for mistakes and cheating.

Deng Ham
02-02-2007, 16:07
My problem is that the group is devided. One half like the rule. And like to stick to it. The other half find i very disturbing. So I need to come up with a rule that satisfy both groups. Or atleast that's what I'll aim at. So far I have not made up my mind on the matter.

Warsmith Strader
08-02-2007, 02:47
In the previous league I played in, if you turned your models to face the direction you were going for, its was Illegal procedure.. You know turn the models to signify you're done with them..

but, no! don't ban IP... it teaches people a lesson about paying attention.

oneman
14-02-2007, 21:02
I must say that in our gaming group (5 guys,the youngest[by a decade] is 30)

we find the IP a necessary part of the game.It clearly delineates between one

players turn & the next,sometimes needed for Events etc..Although 'Turn

Marker Paranoia'(move TM,pick up die,check TM,grasp first figure,check TM,

do first action,check TM,ad infinitum) can be annoying it is also very funny.

As it is when someone forgets in the heat of the moment & also when they

forget & you don't see & don't call it.

I like to imagine it as the coach stepping out of the 'box' (Association football)

or stepping over the sideline(NFL) & is just part of the game,live with it.

Death Before Dishonour
21-02-2007, 18:21
Everyone I know, plays a house rule that we ignore this rule

th0r
21-02-2007, 19:37
I think it's a rather necessary rule as it ensures the game is being played right. I mean sometimes you lose track and this could lead to an extra turn. I know when I started I use to loose all my re-rolls to this rule, and as frustrating as it was I quickly learned.

WildManTX
21-02-2007, 21:18
The way we handle it in my leage is to follow the rule as stated so you can be called for it at any time. But we have a gentlemen's agreement to allow for at least one warning before you get called for it.

Jhayden
27-02-2007, 04:05
I have only played a few games and Illegal Procedure has been called on me a few times. The first real game I played the person kept on calling it over and over and over and I had no idea what was going on.
Needless to say, I still beat him.

Then I played against a Skaven player not too long ago. He did it once on me but it wasn't a big deal. It was a really good, fair game after that.

But apparently there's someone in the store (who is known for being an ******* in tabletop games, as well as a cheesy bastard) who will call it EVERY SINGLE TIME. If you try to call him out and call him an *******, he just tells you it's a rule and if you don't want to follow the rules you don't have to play. For some reason everyone in the store actually hates him (it's true. everyone infact hates him) and yet they keep playing him. I don't know why...

Anyway, it's a completely lame rule that enforces being a rules lawyer. I personally don't call it on anyone unless they call me on it, then if I see a mistake i'll give it a shot. Still havn't had the opportunity though.

Deng Ham
27-02-2007, 14:17
Luckely the ruling of it describet by Jhayden have not occured in my league. But it is the thing that I fear.
That is why I want to do something about it, so that i won't happen. I'm planing on giving one freebee IP pr game. So that it still is valide (and thus make players remember to move the marker) but not as harsh as to ruin the game.

levinas
06-03-2007, 21:32
I'd ban it. It's boring and losing/winning because of IP doesn't test players on what they should be tested on (i.e. being good coaches) - instead it's a test of 'remembering to move a bit of cardboard'.

Deng Ham
06-03-2007, 22:34
I'd ban it. It's boring and losing/winning because of IP doesn't test players on what they should be tested on (i.e. being good coaches) - instead it's a test of 'remembering to move a bit of cardboard'.

I hear you. But moving that pice of cardboard is extreamly important. And if you forgett it or chose not to move it. You can gain a turn. and that is cheeting And cheeting shoud be avoided. The rule is fine. But with new players it's a bit rough.

levinas
06-03-2007, 22:55
Well, I guess that if you think players in your league might use the absence of the IP rule to cheat then you need to keep the rule. And if some of the players find it a fun rule anyway, all the more reason to do it. Why not just ask players to decide between themselves (before kick-off) whether they want to use the rule or not - that's pretty much how it seems to work at tournaments.

I always ask before playing and only one guy I've played at a tournament (the BB in '05) said he did want to use the IP rule. Much to my amusement, I called him for an IP after a few turns. Even more amusing was the fact that he very generously accepted my offer to ignore the rule rather than having the guts to accept the consequences of his own decision...

juanni
16-03-2007, 20:57
I'm having a bit of doubt wheter to ban this rule in the league I run.

As you said, it's your league so it's up to you.


Deliberatly forgetting to move the marker can give you exstra turns.

Which some unscrupulous players will try and do.


My problem is that the group is devided. One half like the rule. And like to stick to it. The other half find i very disturbing. So I need to come up with a rule that satisfy both groups.

I run a Blood Bowl league for myself and my friends (there's twelve of us in total) and have learned that you cannot please everyone all the time. You're just going to have to bite the bullet and make a decision yourself, and tough luck to those that don't like it, they can always run their own league.

As for my opinion, remembering to move your turn marker is such an easy thing to do, I have no sympathy for anyone that forgets. I hardly ever call an IP, I usually make a joke about it to my opponent. However, there may come a time when I'm playing a match that I really need to win (for rankings or to avoid ridicule, etc) and will call that IP in order to deny/gain a re-roll. Tough luck mate, it's in the rules, get over it. You don't berate your opponent for maneuvering their models into a really solid cage around the ball carrier, or for scoring a touchdown, so why IP? The people that get upset by it are the people that get called on it.

As one league commissioner to another, I'd recommend keeping the rule and telling your players to shut the hell up and get on with playing the game and not letting petty rules overcome them. In my league we even play the overtime rules for drawn matches and the penalty shootout rules if its still tied (highest dice roll wins). Makes for exciting games though!

TeddyC
21-03-2007, 21:23
Ill agree with that, its the rules.

People who dont like it are the ones who get caught out.

Apply it to a coach in a real life sport (Ice hockey)... its his job to make sure the right amount of players are on the ice... otherwise its a a 2 minute minor. Petty rule yes but an essential one.

So good coaching is about remembering the small things... and this includes IPs for the turn counter.

Darkson
22-03-2007, 17:44
I hardly ever call an IP, I usually make a joke about it to my opponent. However, there may come a time when I'm playing a match that I really need to win (for rankings or to avoid ridicule, etc) and will call that IP in order to deny/gain a re-roll. Tough luck mate, it's in the rules, get over it.

That's actually the attitude that I really dislike. Either you always call it, or you don't - you don't pick and choose when to call it just because it's an "important" game.:mad:

As for it's only those that forget that dislike it :wtf:, that's total BS. I don't forget, and I could probably get at least an extra RR every 2 games at my league, but I don't because I don't believe it's sporting, or even a rule that needs to be in BB, so I've house-ruled it out.

If anything, I feel it's more the preserve of those players that don't have the confidence in their own gaming ability that prefer the rule.

juanni
24-03-2007, 22:18
It's such an easy rule to remember that I have little or no sympathy for those that forget it.


That's actually the attitude that I really dislike. Either you always call it, or you don't - you don't pick and choose when to call it just because it's an "important" game.:mad:

And this is the kind of attitude that I dislike. I DO get to pick and choose when I call it, that's my choice to make.

At least the IP rule isn't as bad as it was in 3rd Ed, where you lost a re-roll or lost your turn. I learned to play BB in 3rd Ed and had to learn the hard way about IP, but these days I NEVER forget to move my turn marker.

Playing BB is about having fun, but it's also fun to win games. Many of the players in our league are of similar ability, and if anyone can gain an opening over the other through the use of an IP, then fair enough.

If you get called for an IP then it's your fault, end of story. Don't berate your opponent for pointing out your failings.

the1stpip
26-03-2007, 19:51
First of all, you only lose a reroll if you have one, otherwise the other person gains it.

If the other person calls you for a illegal procedure, and it isn't, then you gain a reroll for a wrong call.

And for the record, I rarely forget it, and having played Juanni many times (and always a damned hard game) we have never had any such problems.

If you don't like the IP rule, then the game would go back to the 'first person to score twice wins' rule. Do you really want that..?

Darkson
01-04-2007, 18:13
If you don't like the IP rule, then the game would go back to the 'first person to score twice wins' rule. Do you really want that..?

:wtf: What on earth has that got to do with the IP rule?:confused:

juanni
02-04-2007, 17:43
:wtf: What on earth has that got to do with the IP rule?:confused:

I think he was referring to the fact that with the first to score two touchdowns, there is no need to move the turn marker because there isn't a turn limit, thereby eliminating the need for IP.

Wouldn't fancy that kind of game in a dwarfs versus dwarfs match-up, it might take all year!

Red Skullz
04-04-2007, 23:05
What`s the big deal...when you`ve suffered 2-3 lost RR you`ll hardly ever do it again. It`s a part of the game and I`ve got no probs with it.

So with that said in the league I play in we`re pretty ruthless about something like that, but we`re all in on it so it`s no biggie. My proudest moment was when the vet in our group forgot to move it and I called it on him lol , then again he`d taken half a dozen from me in previous games so it was only fair :evilgrin:

R

the1stpip
06-04-2007, 20:24
Back in 2nd ed BB, there was no turn marker, and no IP. The first team to score two touchdowns (or it may have been win by two clear touchdowns, my memory fails me) won the game.

If you read JJ's designer notes in the original 3rd ed rulebook, it says he nearly dropped the whole idea of the turn marker, until he hit upon the IP rule.

Uncle_Thor
15-04-2007, 19:20
I agree that it is an important rule and shouldn't be left out. If you ignore it and let your opponent away with it's no different from letting them Move units in the shooting phase because they forgot or any other of countless examples. It's part of the game and adds to it.

Personally I think it's rather amusing when someone does an IP. My first few games I forgot to move it all the time and my opponent who was teaching me didn't let me off with it once. His reasoning was if he let me away with it I'd never learn and he was right. After you've forgotten a couple of times in important time you won't do it again.:D

http://www.360giveaway.co.uk/images/360userbar.gif (http://360giveaway.co.uk/index.php?referral=201325)

Zzarchov
26-05-2007, 18:15
See, in our league, we took cheating as PART of the game, fully in the spirit of bloodbowl (where bribery itself is regulated).

We had the rule that if you didnt' catch the IP at the first instance it was valid..you lost the chance to call it.

Likewise, it was always great fun trying to sneak an extra player on the field, if the opponent didn't notice until the drive started, tough nuggies.

Hilarity ensues.

the1stpip
28-05-2007, 10:36
I did that once.

My friend dared me to try and field twelve playuers in a tournament, so when the game was pretty much tied up, I did, and got away with it.

I would have willingly lost a re-roll if he had noticed...

the Wulfen
03-06-2007, 09:40
Lol, It would be funny if they didn't use that rule anymore, I could constantly field 14+ models without any penalty if they catch me (I play halflings so I got to try everything right?)! Gotta love that! Now seriously, how hard is it to move an turn marker? It's an fun rule, and it's in my oppinion allways fun in an high tension game to see someone forgetting it an suffer for it. Remember it's not the guy who call's it who is wrong, the guy that forgot to move it made the mistake, and should pay for it! Aldo in our group we sometimes "forget" to move it to try to get extra turns..

But we consider this game more as an fun "beer and pretzel" game and don't play with that "dagger on the table" attitude you sometime see with people. We also play three way battles (custom made board) with is hilarious! I think Bloodbowl is one game where we can try to cheat "within the rules" as it where. And as long as everybody knows that it's ok. Gives really funny conversations afterwards I can tell you ;)

Darkson
01-03-2008, 12:49
Again, sorry for the thread necromancy, but this years BB GT has house-ruled out the IP rule unless both coaches want to use it.

http://warhammerworld.typepad.com/warhammer_world_news/files/bb_gt_pack_2008.pdf