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alterion
17-07-2005, 09:27
i understand about legio's and demi-legio's but presumably it would be a rare situation where an entire demi-legio would be assaigned to a campaign. Therefore how would titan;s be assaigned to a campain force or gurad/ marine regiment/chapter. as individual squadrons similiar to superhavey tank companies or in battle groups of variuos different titans.. any info much appreciated

Brusilov
17-07-2005, 13:36
You forgot to mention Quarto-Legio, another possible force of Titans. Personally I don't believe Titans would operate individually, they'd usually be deployed only against fortresses as massive siege weapons or if the enemy is supposed to have Titans or Titan like vehicles around (like the Tau Manta Destroyer). They're a class of their own and would probably not concern themselves too much with the infantry and regular tanks, they have bigger fish to fry.
If the Titan attack along with IG forces (I don't see them operating with Space Marines usually) the Titan will be the spearhead of the assault and the IG will protect them from the enemy footsloggers and tanks that can damage the Titans, while the Titans concentrate on destroying enemy Titans or breaching the fortifications.

But that's just some thoughts, there is nothing I'm aware of that describes the coordination of Titan formations with IG units, and the game certainly is not the good place to look.

TenTailedCat
17-07-2005, 13:42
I can think of a few instances where Space Marines and Titans have worked or are portrayed together - Battle for Macragge, a bit of fluff where a (supposedly) Imperial Titan accidentally steps on a Space Wolf in Terminator armour (He lives - the thing was to show how tough Terminators are) and a part in Grey hunter where the Wolves, along with titans and the Imperial Guard are assaulting a fortress-Citadel on Garm. THere's also the cover of Epic, which shows Spaces marines with a Titan in the background.

In Malleus of the Eisenhorn Trilogy there's a scene where the survivors of a campaign are marching through the streets of a Hive, the procession (and thus the crusade) included both Space Marines and Titans.

I think Titans are generally deployed as needed, whether induvidually or in small groups of five to ten to support an infantry assault. Or in full legio deployments for pitched battles against (for instance) Ork Gargants, as in the 3rd Armageddon war.

Brusilov
17-07-2005, 14:08
My point was not that Titans would never operate with Space Marines, but that they'd never operate with Space Marines alone. Sorry for not making myself clearer
Your examples (except the Terminator anedocte) always have IG thrown in. The Space Marines' role would not be to cover the advance of Titans (unless in the direst of circumstances), that's the job of the IG. Space Marines would overwhelm strong points with guns big enough to threaten the Titans, storm fortification to facilitate the progression of the IG, take bridges ahead of the Imperial advance.

So yes, the three fighting branches of the Imperium (we're forgetting the SoBs but no matter) operate in tandem, but the Space Marines are not here to cover Titans directly.

TenTailedCat
17-07-2005, 14:12
Oh, I see your point, I agree, the Marines are a fast moving foce and excell in dense built up areas, pretty much the opposite of a Titans' mode of warfare I assume.

alterion
17-07-2005, 14:41
ahh the quraot-;egio is probablyu what i am looking for. was thinking of how they would be deployed in campaign forces such as the taros or barbarus campagin. i guess if titans were involved and deemed nessecary then a quarto/whatever-legio would be allocated and contolled by the council of leaders

jaalmo
17-07-2005, 14:53
What is the differance between a legio's and a demi-legio? Is there anything larger or smaller then these two?

TenTailedCat
17-07-2005, 14:56
Legio is full sized, Demi-Legio is (I assume) half the size of a Legio. Qaurto-Legio is quater of the full Legio.
As for actual organisation i don't know how that works, not being an expert on Titans.

Lord-Warlock
17-07-2005, 14:57
A Demi-Legio would probably be half the size of a Legion, with a Quasi-Legio half the size of a Demi-Legio?

EDIT: So, what TTC said...

Sojourner
17-07-2005, 14:58
Quarto, not Quasi.

Delicious Soy
17-07-2005, 14:59
I'm curious as to what the Mechanicus gets from supplying titans to the battlefield. Is it part of the Treaty of Mars? Are the procedures the same as the Astartes (make the call and hope :p)?

astrocortex
17-07-2005, 15:01
Fluff wise Marines and Titans operate on completely different principles. Marines are a close up shock assault force and Titans have always seemed to work best in wide open spaces, a bit like the great naval duels of the last century where battleships would operate and fight over huge areas of ocean.

If you've read Titan book 3 there is a sequence where imperius dictatio and a load of other imperial titans are city fighting against chaos titans and chaos gets the drop on them. 'Fortunately' they muck it up and pay the price. (fortunately because it's at the very start of the book!)

The thing about Titans and Space Marines (I'm not totally sure about fluff wise but certainly epic:a game wise) they're complementary in that the Titans provide access to huge long ranged macro weapons which is meant to kill super heavy armour or other titans, marines don't have access to that without using pin point attacks from battle barges. Otherwise Marines are screwed when it comes to dealing with titan sized war engine.

Just look at what happened to the Celestial Lions raiding the Gargant construction yards on Armageddon.

The marines on the other hand provide a fast moving and very hard hitting force that can take ground and hold it as well as providing a very effective counter assault force that will keep the enemy away from the titan.

Guard don't really need this because they've got access to things like Volcano Cannons via their Shadow Sword tanks while the artillery and Leman Russ tanks do the bulk of the covering fire and suppression work. The army as a whole tends to move as one solid block, at the same speed as a Warlord Titan, and so would provide a massive block of infantry to protect the titans.

Iracundus
17-07-2005, 15:07
The problem however is Titans in game don't do very well in flat open spaces. In the old Epic games, a Titan in clear terrain would attract anti-tank and artillery from everywhere and fall quickly.

It's a bit ironic but Titans sort of for me fall into similar niche like Terminators. They are a heavily armed and armored compact package that does well when the enemy cannot focus fire from all over the battlefield.

jaalmo
17-07-2005, 15:22
Thanks for the info on the diffrent sizes. Do you know around how many titians are in a legio?

Brusilov
17-07-2005, 15:31
There is no set number it would seem it depends entirely from the Legion, it's probably linked to the wealth of the Forge World that maintains it. However from reference I've seen, a full Legion would be around 40 Titans from Warhounds to Warlords (Emperor class are not part of the standard legion). As to the layout between the different types, I have no clue. I'd say probably Reavers or Warlords in the majority and a few Warhounds to scout and flank.

As to why the Titans fight alongside the Imperium, it is indeed because the Mechanicus is bound by treaty obligations to provide fighting forces to the Imperium (treaty of Ceres, apparently renewed regularly). The Mechanicus gets to rule its worlds as it sees fit, they are for the most part sovereign and even somewhat off-limits to the Inquisition. They get to control the distribution of technology across the Imperium and they build the fleets of warships (a huge responsability and a lot of power).

TenTailedCat
17-07-2005, 15:41
I t also bears mentioning that the Ad-Mech are just as devoted to the Emperor as the Ministorum, just in a different way. to the Mechanicus the Emperor is the human embodiment of the Omnissiah - when he first met the Magi of Mars he helped them and taught them how to build and maintain some of the best tech Humanity ever produced and he could compeltey understand even their most advanced machines with ease. To them I suppose he's the Machine God given life, they fight for him and for his glory, just not in a way that the Ecclesiarchy would like.

Puffin Magician
17-07-2005, 21:04
I'd estimate the average Legion size at 40-60 Titans, with a 50/35/15 ratio of Warlord, Reaver and Warhound Titans respectively. Warhounds work in pairs, while their larger bretheren work in groups of three.

As for Organization, each Titan is commanded by a Princeps, and the leader of the Legion holds the title of Grand Master.

Sojourner
17-07-2005, 21:10
(treaty of Ceres, apparently renewed regularly

Really? This is one background coincidence I like. Ceres is a massive asteroid in the Terran system - probably an Admech base by then.

Emperor's Light
17-07-2005, 21:40
The Space Marines' role would not be to cover the advance of Titans (unless in the direst of circumstances), that's the job of the IG.
In the old Titan Legions box set you used to get a bunch of Space Marines to ride in the legs of the Imperator Titan. But yes, generally I agree there are better things for Space Marines to do.

However, in sieges maybe Space Marines would advance with Titans. Once the Titan has created a breach in a fortress wall the Space Marines - as the best shock troops - would lead the charge through the breach.

susu.exp
18-07-2005, 02:36
"In the old Titan Legions box set you used to get a bunch of Space Marines to ride in the legs of the Imperator Titan."

You what?! AdMech troops were allowed to use the Imperator as a transport. Youre confusing boxed sets here. SM had (seems logical) Space marines, TL had Knights.

A Warlord titan was allowed to carry a strike pod transporting 3 Squads of marines though. They were the titan mounted equivalent of drop pods and thier tactical use is obvious: If you need your strike team in a heavily defended area, just let the titan get in there, protected by the shields and his armour and let the marines disembark to execute their operation behind the lines. They were no common sight, but when Ive seen them in action they were used to get those marines, or termies more likely, on that objective.

On legion sizes: There are legions that number well beyond 200 Titans, while others may only have 3. The bigger Legions tend to have lighter titans, mostly Warhounds and Reavers, while the samll Legions often consist of several Emperor class Titans.

Final notion: Titans are usually deployed in battle groups of 3 titans, if they are Reavers or Warlords. Warhound Titans usually scout in pairs and Emperor class Titans are deployed on their own (though the aforementioned small Legions might employ different tactics).

Emperor's Light
18-07-2005, 03:38
"In the old Titan Legions box set you used to get a bunch of Space Marines to ride in the legs of the Imperator Titan."


Oh yeah the box set didn't come with Space Marine models. I do recall there being space marines coming out of the legs in the artwork though.

Puffin Magician
18-07-2005, 09:58
There are legions that number well beyond 200 Titans, while others may only have 3.
The largest official Legion is said to have over 100 [Legio Destructor], and they make it seem like that's a lot. The smallest Legion [Ordo Sinister] has 12 Titans, but they are all Emperor-class. These are taken from canon sources as being the largest and smallest Legions.


A Warlord titan was allowed to carry a strike pod transporting 3 Squads of marines though.
That would be the Corvus Assault Pod. IIRC in later editions they were used to carry 40 Tech Guard?

Sai-Lauren
18-07-2005, 10:34
A Warlord titan was allowed to carry a strike pod transporting 3 Squads of marines though. They were the titan mounted equivalent of drop pods and thier tactical use is obvious: If you need your strike team in a heavily defended area, just let the titan get in there, protected by the shields and his armour and let the marines disembark to execute their operation behind the lines. They were no common sight, but when Ive seen them in action they were used to get those marines, or termies more likely, on that objective.

Corvus assault pods ;) They were produced with some other variant weapons, heads, chaos tails etc late in 1st edition epic (anyone else remember the centre-line macro cannon? - GW designers must have some kind of fetish for big centre-line weapons :rolleyes: )

Firstly, titans legions and marines chapter would NEVER have direct links (the whole limitation of strength theory of the Codex Astartes etc) - although chances are there's honour bonds between legions and chapters from events in their history, and they'll help each other out if they call.

Secondly, legions and chapters would be assigned to various forces by the administratum, but wouldn't automatically come under the overall leader of the force, although they may defer to them - they might be asked politely to take an objective rather than the chain of command ordering them to to so. And yes, for the most part, marine and titan doctrines are mutually exclusive, but there would be many occasions (such as the end stages of seiges, major battles, especially where enemy titans are involved etc) where they would act in concert - against Titans, infantry can do things like fire heavy weapons inside the shields, stick grenades in the knee joints, or if you believe Titan:Vivaprous and Cold Steel, board them, so having friendly ground-pounders around to keep the enemy off the front lawn is useful.

Sojourner
18-07-2005, 10:51
I can see hardened Skitarii carrying grapples and ascension lines to get onto a Titan's hull and plant explosives or whatever. In fact, even if you were in a Corvus pod, you'd still need some sort of climbing gear to stay on the thing. Ordinary infantry won't be doing a Skywalker, though.

DarkAzrael169
16-01-2008, 21:25
An average Titan Legion in my mind would have a ratio of Titans to be 1-7-2(Warlord, Reaver, Warhound). Warhounds might be scouts, but they are still titans. Warlords are HUGE. Why would you have like 50 Warlords and have only 20 Reavers? Thats not efficient at all. Reavers are the most efficient Imperial Titans. Because of their statistics relative to their points... Space marines are ment to take specific points and objectives... what they were ment for originally... Imperial Guard is ment to be a "Meat Shield." Translate this to havign Titans on the Battlfield... Space marines go ahead and secure crossings or strong points that might slow down a Titan... Imperial Guard, continuo to be "Meat Shields." For more information look on the GW website for the Titanicus game. Tons of info on organization... However its a bit outdated, as it states that a Warlord Titan is 30-40 Meters tall WTF???

Leftenant Gashrog
17-01-2008, 00:21
Hasn't it been stated in canon somewhere that the Reaver is actually the rarest of all titans due to being a much later design than the Warlord which has only been adopted by a handfull Forgeworlds?

icegreentea
17-01-2008, 01:28
Hasn't it been stated in canon somewhere that the Reaver is actually the rarest of all titans due to being a much later design than the Warlord which has only been adopted by a handfull Forgeworlds?

I think it's the other way. the reaver is so old that they simply can't build them anymore. warlords can be built centuries at a time.

DarkAzrael169
17-01-2008, 05:05
my bad guys

MeltaBombed
17-01-2008, 05:26
Just what are emperor class titans?
ive heard of them but what is the difference and why are they supposedly deployed alone?

DarkAzrael169
17-01-2008, 05:32
Because they are so massive that the Tech-priests have to make sure that the ground is solid enough to support them... thats why they go in alone(along with being armed with everything under the sun).

MeltaBombed
17-01-2008, 05:33
Because they are so massive that the Tech-priests have to make sure that the ground is solid enough to support them... thats why they go in alone(along with being armed with everything under the sun).

:eek::eek::eek:

Chaos and Evil
17-01-2008, 12:21
Emperor Titans have been known to shoot down starships in orbit... with their defensive laser weapon...

That doesn't even begin to think about the Plasma Annihilator or the Gatling Cannon arm weapons, each of which is larger than a warhound Titan...

CELS
17-01-2008, 12:41
... depending on who you ask or where you get your material from. If you go by old fluff or the Emperor Titan models for Epic, their defensive laser weapon is smaller than the laser weapon mounted on a Shadowsword tank. (You might argue that size doesn't matter, but in the 40k universe, it really does!)

Then again, most people seem ready to accept that the Emperor Titan is much bigger than we were originally informed, partly due to representation in artwork and video games. And it just makes more sense, given their importance in the Imperium.

Way to resurrect an old thread, by the way. If the moderators catch a whiff of this... BOHICA. :p

Chaos and Evil
17-01-2008, 12:56
Nah, there's been some new and unseful info posted here, it's not lock-worthy.

Case in point: DarkAzrael now knows that Reavers are the least common Titan variant.

Wolflord Havoc
17-01-2008, 14:21
Aparently a Tech Adept got the idea for an Emperor Class titan after watching several Chuck Norris movies.

Honest!

Anyway - seriously though - A Titan Legion in its full glory would number scores if not hundreds of Main line Warlord and Reaver titans with a smaller number of Warhounds and an even smaller number of Emperor Class Titans (if any) the number being dependent upon battle losses and the production ability of the Forgeworld to build new Titans (i.e. how quickly they can be built). In addition to this the Legion would have the support of a vast number of Skittari (Tech Guard) infantry, armor and Artillery regts hailing from the same forgeworld that the Legio came from.

pookie
17-01-2008, 16:28
I can see hardened Skitarii carrying grapples and ascension lines to get onto a Titan's hull and plant explosives or whatever. In fact, even if you were in a Corvus pod, you'd still need some sort of climbing gear to stay on the thing. Ordinary infantry won't be doing a Skywalker, though.

one of the best ways of taking titans out ( when it was known as Epic Space Marine) was to use a detachment of marines and hammer it in close combat, ive downed dozens of titans like this, when the rules updated tho infantry couldnt best a titan in close combat.

Pilgrim
17-01-2008, 21:20
Emperor Titans have been known to shoot down starships in orbit... with their defensive laser weapon...

Although note that the weapon in question is not called the defense laser to signify that it is a weak part of the titan's armament. The defense laser is one of the more powerful weapons systems mounted on an Emperor class titan, and is so called because it is adapted from a weapon usually mounted in bunkers to attack starships in high orbit (hence the name 'defence laser' because it is an anti-orbital defense system).

In other words, the fact that Emperor class titans have engaged and destroyed orbiting starships with defence laser fire is not that surprising. It's what they mount the gun for in the first place (and it's worth noting that it is probably not a serious threat to most starships, being of primary use against small escort craft rather than mainline cruisers and the like)


That doesn't even begin to think about the Plasma Annihilator or the Gatling Cannon arm weapons, each of which is larger than a warhound Titan...

Again, this is not that surprising, since Emperor class titans appear to be mounting more or less starship grade weaponry as their main armament. I would suspect that something close to the Plasma Annihilator and Hellstorm cannon are mounted as batteries on starships, at least as secondary batteries, quite possibly primary, given the capacity of other titan mounted weaponry to threaten starships (at least small ones).

That said, the arm cannons are ground-to-ground weapons, without the elevation to fire into orbit, even if they were powerful enough to do so.

Adrian

DarkAzrael169
18-01-2008, 04:59
Thanks, I didn't know that Reavers were rare.. I did know that they were the oldest design however. I should have realised the connection.

Arkturas
18-01-2008, 15:44
The model used for the old epic Emperor Titan (Imperator) is the fire support version, the battle version (Warmonger) mounts more guns and less support equipment.

Chaos and Evil
18-01-2008, 22:38
The model used for the old epic Emperor Titan (Imperator) is the fire support version, the battle version (Warmonger) mounts more guns and less support equipment.

You have it pretty much opposite there.


The Imperator configuration Emperor Titan mounts lots of direct-fire weapons.

The Warmonger configuration Emperor Titan mounts lots of indirect-fire weapons like missiles, or aircraft (Yes it has an aircraft landing pad on top of it!).

Talos402000
19-01-2008, 02:21
Don't forget the horrifying Nemesis Psi-Titans! But for your information, a normal Titan Legion at full strength numbers only 16 God-Machines. A Demi Legion is 8 Machines and a Quarto-Legion numbers only 4 machines (which contradicts Epic fluff which states that Reaver and Warlord Titans fight in battle groups of three). The breakdown of an ideal Legion is 4 Warhounds (2 pairs), 6 Reavers (2 Battle groups), and 6 Warlords (also 2 battle groups). A Legion typically has only 1 Emperor-class Titan, with I think about half having no Emperors at all. Obviously the ideal rarely happens, and you will find a great deal of variance between Forgeworlds and Titan Legions. Also, any of the Warlords might be variants such as a Legatus Command Titan, or an Eclipse Recon Titan.

Mechanicus
19-01-2008, 09:30
But for your information, a normal Titan Legion at full strength numbers only 16 God-Machines. A Demi Legion is 8 Machines and a Quarto-Legion numbers only 4 machines (which contradicts Epic Fluff which states that Reaver and Warlord Titans fight in battle groups of three). The breakdown of an ideal Legion is 4 Warhounds (2 pairs), 6 Reavers (2 Battle groups), and 6 Warlords (also 2 battle groups). A Legion typically has only 1 Emperor-class Titan, with I think about half having no Emperors at all.I'm afraid that the background you've quoted has only ever been written in the Liber Mechanicus, a fan document, which I have been unable to substantiate elsewhere.
Obviously the ideal rarely happens, and you will find a great deal of variance between Forgeworlds and Titan Legions. Also, any of the Warlords might be variants such as a Legatus Command Titan, or an Eclipse Recon Titan.But this is spot on. :)

I'll quote what I said last time this came up:

Well, a Legion has been described as 'only' twelve Titans, and the largest mentioned is a hundred, so I don't think there's a concrete number. I imagine between twenty and thirty is a small Titan Legion, between sixty and seventy is a large Legion and anything in between is medium, and the demi-legion strengths would be calculated directly from that. This is, of course, only relevant to the Military Orders of Titan Legions, not Missionary/Executive, Telepath and Research Orders.

cthorpe
20-01-2008, 14:20
Hi guys you may want to check out this site for Titan and other AD Mech organisations..

Its rather good.. look under the heading for 'Forces of Mars'..

http://www.siegeworld.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=3

Best wishes,

Carl

schoon
21-01-2008, 01:25
Also, any of the Warlords might be variants such as a Legatus Command Titan, or an Eclipse Recon Titan.
Hi Talos:

Could you give me a reference on that - I want to look it up and get any other tidbits in the passage(s)?