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ArmandB
30-01-2007, 03:22
Hello all, Right now I am about to build my very first army for warhammer. I am looking for an army based around stealth and assassin capabilities.. ie poisoned weapons, stealth, shooty stuff, and magic. Right now I am looking at Skaven as they cam highly recommended for fun and flexibility. Is this the right army for what I am looking for. I am looking for it to be strong magically, shooty, and combat by use of stealth and death. I was looking at the master assassin\deathmaster Snikch. I was also looking at maybe throwing in some giants\rat ogre for sheer power. Not sure if it would be better to get the grey seer or assassin as a general. for the giants?? can you use all giant types?? hmm.. Do you think skaven would be the best for my wants? Also I was looking at getting a couple battalion box sets if this is the right army. I did notice clan eshin but later found out that it isn't a legal army list for normal play, only SOC. is this true? Also i was thinking about adding a giant or irongut ogres as part of my army for a little extra punch. Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thank you all in advance.

PS. not sure this is in the right forum.

Teach
30-01-2007, 14:39
I think most players would not complain about facing a eshin army.
Maybe Dark elves is a good alternative for you.
I have played Eshin a few times.
With skaven you will need 2 rock hard units to draw you opponent. Look where the charakters are and then send in assassins who are in the big units or in smaller nightrunner units. The shooting of skaven can be very effictive.
I don't have any books here at the moment so don't shoot me if i got things wrong. I would recommend:
Deathmaster
2x wizards
Assassin
2 units of 10 nightrunners 2e weapon
2 units of 5 nightrunners 2e weapon
2 units of clanrats with full com and ratlingguns
2 tunnelteams of 4 gutters 2e weapon possioned
2 teams of jezzails
Gaint (or assassin thriats)
Manflayer mercenaries.
Just some units.
have fun

ArmandB
30-01-2007, 21:41
you have definitely made me think more on the skaven as my first army. one thing I have noticed is that skaven is the only army without mounted units. I will look at the characters in which you have stated and see how they are. what are manflayer mercenaries? I like your list so far .. thanks

eyeolas
30-01-2007, 21:50
There rock hard dogs of war dark elves, which take up a rare choise for you, but have great weapons and repeater crossbows, and not to mention the speshal rules *drools*

sphincter man
30-01-2007, 22:02
IF you want an army that is ALOT like skaven, BUT BETTER!! go for hordes of chaos (mark of nurgle.) Probably because i collect them but they are a great army to paint and play!

ArmandB
30-01-2007, 23:25
my first army i had thought of was hordes of chaos because i like the models. I just want a well balanced army that is relatively strong. not cheesy but strong. I also like the thought of having a lot of different types of models in my army. would the manflayers take up the spot of a giant and be better than a giant for power? I am not fully aware of all the rules but.. i can have as many core as i want, how many hero? rare? special? lord? Thanks so much for the information... I know that hordes uses a lot less models so would mean less painting.. but how are they as a well rounded army. other ones that i have looked at were vamp, lizardmen, dogs of war.

forgottenlor
31-01-2007, 10:52
Hordes of Chaos is completely different form Skaven, and despite popular belief not better!!! IT might be, however, easier for a beginner. Hordes is not balanced and not shooty or stealthy. Basically you have super hard troops and can with most 1X1 battles. If your opponent is inexperienced its not too hard to win with. You basically move forward and hope he can't figure out to outmanover you or attack you with mutiple units.
Skaven requires more tactics. You have fast skirmishers. You have great mid range firepower. You have masses and masses of cheap troops. You need to learn how to use these advantages though. Night runners, Slaves, and giant rats can be kept to small units of 30-40 points, and can be used to lure your opponent into places he doesn't want to go, can be shot into, or just get in the way!
If you use skaven I would definately consider the following:
Jezzails: calvary killers, but expensive.
Plague monks & PLague censor bearers (I have had much more luck with these guys for hitting power than Rat ogres)
Gutter Runners (as tunnel teams, to take out enemy war machines)
And lots of Clan rats, slaves, and night runners. You'll need to decide if you want a Warlord (my preference) or a Grey seer as general. Most armies use a battle standard bearer, and then maybe an assassin and a warlock engineer.

If you decide against skaven, I would look closer into lizard men. They are amuch more well rounded army than chaos and good for beginners.

DesertDirge
31-01-2007, 15:14
If you don't like to paint don't get Skaven!

ArmandB
31-01-2007, 15:36
as for the painting.. not sure never painted anything like this before. Here is kinda what I am looking at with a Skaven army. This list is before i buy so let me know what things I need and don't need.
2 Skaven Battalion box sets
80 clan rats
40 plague monks
12 giant rats
4 rat ogres
4 packmasters

1 manflayer box set
10 manflayers

1 nightrunners box set
25 nightrunners

1 skaven jezzail regiment
6 jezzail

1 censer bearer pack
2 censer bearers

1 gutter runner regiment
6 gutter runners

1 warlord
1 grey seer
1 assassin
1 engineer
1 standard bearer
1 lightning cannon

Can the warlord or seer mount anything but the bell?

Lizard army:
Not sure what I would need on this part. but here is an attempt
2 lizardmen battalion box set
48 saurus warriors
16 coldone cavalry
48 skinks

1 stegadon
2 -3 salamanders
1 terradon regiment
Kroxigor regiment
2 skink priest
Saurus oldblood
Slann mage

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

DesertDirge
31-01-2007, 15:42
Only a grey seer can mount the bell. and no.. there are no other mounts available to skaven.

ArmandB
31-01-2007, 17:40
anyone know what the point cost for a regiment of manflayers is?? I think I would take manflayers over the giant for a bit of an extra punch. Plus the manflayers kinda match the theme since they come from the underdark.

I am actually kinda finallizing my list and will post a bit more soon.

Teach
01-02-2007, 10:25
You can find the rules and points cost in a pdf on the site of GW. Dogs of war.
The list you wrote is for a really complete army and maybe more suited for a different kind of army. Try to build up from 500pts parts or start playing Mordheim or Warbands with just nightrunners and Gutters. Also...maybe you don't like playing Skaven (although they are the future of the world). The ratlingguns are easilly made with confursions and 2e hand toy guns.
At 2000pts you have 2 rare slots, so one for the gaint and one for the Manfayers. The Manflayers have a very different role then the Gaint.
A big unit of monks would help your battle line as a more reliable stop the advance of your opponent, then flank him, kill his charakters and warmachines and then round up the infantry bocks.
goodluck

forgottenlor
01-02-2007, 14:30
I like temple guards for lizardmen if you are planning to play a Slaan. Otherwise I think you covered everything well in both lists.

ArmandB
01-02-2007, 16:39
Here is one army list i was looking at.. let me know what you think.. this really doesn't follow the stealth part. I have pieced some things together from other lists that I have found. but here is list one:


Warlord- 190 points
Heavy armor, Blade of black fury, power bands, amulet of protection.

Warlock Engineer- 110
Kit minus the pistol, Storm Daemon.

Warlock Engineer- 110
Kit minus the pistol, dispell scroll.

Warlock Engineer- 120
Kit minus the pistol, Dispel scroll, 1 additional token.

25 clanrats- 210
Command, Ratling gun.

25 clanrats- 210
Command, Ratling gun.

24 clanrats- 220
Command, Warpfire thrower. (Warlord here)

40 slaves (8 wide) - 168
Muscician, spear, shield

40 slaves- 168
Muscician, spear, shield

Warp Lightning Cannon- 100

Rare
Manflayers- 287

I am currently looking at more of a stealthy list but here is my first attempt at a list let me know what you think. Also with all this I am at 1893 total. need to get to 2k. Do you think that the manflayers will give me the extra hitting i need or do you think i should substitute plague monnks and censer bearers instead?? I do kinda like the stealthy hard hitting of the manflayers though.

n00bLord
03-02-2007, 01:21
If you still want to use Plague Monks, and Censer Bearers but don't want to shell out the cash for the metal Bearers, aswell as keeping the night runners (excellent screens) All you need is these two boxes to make the trio of units. The Night Runner box was orginally a Mordheim skaven warband box (so I was told by customer service) thats why it has spears, and even flails (what I am getting at) Just put on the flails for the censer bearers (their two handed unlike the one handed ones in the monk box) and presto you got Censer Bearers for the cheap.

You'll likely need two boxes of Monks (30 Monks, 10 bearers) and I think you get four to five flails a Runner box so you may need two, or just order the flail sprue or trade for them. If you get the additional box of Runners, and you have no need to field large numbers of them (I have experimented with 40 of the things before, fun but awkward) you can just give them one hand weapon and use them as slaves.

Slaves are nice, but keep them cheap by removing the shields and spears. They will die, no need to keep them bloated with much needed points, Buff yer Clanners to 30 to 35 a unit. You will want a Battle Standard Bearer just a hint. The Warp Lightning Cannon is joys of fun for me, I enjoy being asanine in 500pt games with it.

If you got any questions, ask me here, Pm me. or mail me at TheOtherReborn@Gmail.com

Teach
03-02-2007, 23:03
MAke up your mind on the list for your first army! ;)

ArmandB
04-02-2007, 01:51
heheh i would love to make up my mind on my first army.. but it is just that.. my first army and I have never played or seen anything like this played. My friend just asked me if I wanted to start playing.. i said sure, so now here we are. i am asking if you think it is worth it to substitute manflayers or do plague monks and censer bearers. I want a semi hard hitting army.. but also want decent magic\shooting phase.

Teach
04-02-2007, 19:59
If you like the assassin theme stick to the manflayers and assassin traits. For a "normal" skaven army take the monks. The normal army is a solid one. the assassin is a specialists army. As a beginner maybe its better to start with the normal one and try out all the different combo's.

ArmandB
04-02-2007, 20:58
Ok, how is this list for my normal list??

Warlord- 190 points
Heavy armor, Blade of black fury, power bands, amulet of protection.

Warlock Engineer- 110
Kit minus the pistol, Storm Daemon.

Warlock Engineer- 110
Kit minus the pistol, dispell scroll.

Warlock Engineer- 120
Kit minus the pistol, Dispel scroll, 1 additional token.

30 clanrats
Command, Ratling gun.

30 clanrats
Command, Ratling gun.

30 clanrats
Command, Warpfire thrower. (Warlord here)

40 slaves (8 wide)
Muscician, spear

40 slaves(8 wide)
Muscician, spear

Warp Lightning Cannon- 100

Rare
20 Plague monks
Xtra hand weapon, standard bearer, magic banner, musician

5 censer bearers


I am not sure where my points are right now.. Is this a solid army?? any recommendations or changes?? I kiinda want to keep spears on the slaves.. not sure yet though.. also what magic banner would I use?? also for the warlord can I take any warlord?? I noticed GW had some lustria direct warlords. I liked the one with 2 blades. Anyway let me know

Teach
05-02-2007, 14:12
Make three slave units (3 x 20+music) this saves some points. Drop the spears. Get three units nightrunners and maybe a tunnel team. The rest is strong. I never use units so big. They work for some people and for some they don't. 25 is big enough for me. All in all (cutting down the slaves and clanrats) it will save you about 200pts wich can be used for massive pain infliction on your opponent.

ArmandB
05-02-2007, 18:31
ok here is a refined list.
Warlord- 189 points
Heavy armor, shield, Blade of black fury, power bands, amulet of protection.

Warlock Engineer- 110
Kit minus the pistol, Storm Daemon.

Warlock Engineer- 110
Kit minus the pistol, dispell scroll.

Warlock Engineer- 120
Kit minus the pistol, Dispel scroll, 1 additional token.

25 clanrats 210
clawleader, standard bearer, musician, Ratling gun.

25 clanrats 210
clawleader, standard bearer, musician, Ratling gun.

25 clanrats 225
clawleader, standard bearer, musician, Warpfire thrower. (Warlord here)

20 slaves - 64
Muscician, spear

20 slaves -64
Muscician, spear

20 slaves -64
Muscician, spear

5 Nightrunners 35
Xtra hand weapon

5 Nightrunners 35
Xtra hand weapon

5 Nightrunners 35
Xtra hand weapon

3 gutter runner tunneling team 63
Poisoned weapon, black skaven

Warp Lightning Cannon- 100

Rare
20 Plague monks -210
Xtra hand weapon, standard bearer, magic banner (umbranner), musician

5 censer bearers

the total is 1930. So I have 70 points to spend. where would be the best spot to spend them?? Can i take another engineer? should i take the plague deacon? should I add another tunneling team? another 2 sqauds of night runners? or more slaves? Also am i missing anything?? Thanks so much for the help with my army. I am trying to make it balanced and fun to play. My friend said that he an i can play once I get the pieces put together and work on painting as i go along. ;-)

feintstar
06-02-2007, 03:16
Rat Swarms x 2. = 90 points, so drop some nightrunners and grab these guys. Excellent at absorbing charges, very manuverable. I would say Jezzails, but you need BIG units (I use 8), cos they Miss, but when they hit, S6 Armour Piercing = Dead Chaos Chosen Knights, and Dead Dragons.

In fact, in some ways, I reckon that your 2000 list is better than the 2500 list that I'm currently playing against myself right now. I don't really understand how that works, but its probably due to my Screaming Bell, Rat Ogres and Jezzails.

Teach
06-02-2007, 10:43
It is getting better and better! Still spears on the slaves? Wht not put them on a clansrat unit. That way you will get more out of the clanrats and more out of the slaves at 44 pts a unit. this saves you another 35 pts. 2 ratswarms are cool to use. I use them alot. Spare pts go into the tunnelers maybe (extra weapons or extra number).

ArmandB
07-02-2007, 17:50
here is another update.

Warlord- 190 points
Heavy armor, shield, Blade of black fury, power bands, amulet of protection.

Warlock Engineer- 110
Kit minus the pistol, Storm Daemon.

Warlock Engineer- 110
Kit minus the pistol, dispell scroll.

Warlock Engineer- 120
Kit minus the pistol, Dispel scroll, 1 additional token.

25 clanrats 210
clawleader, standard bearer, musician, Ratling gun.

25 clanrats 210
clawleader, standard bearer, musician, Ratling gun.

25 clanrats 225
clawleader, standard bearer, musician, Warpfire thrower. (Warlord here)

40 slaves - 84
Muscician, spear

20 slaves -44
Muscician

5 Nightrunners – 35
Xtra hand weapon

5 Nightrunners – 35
Xtra hand weapon

5 Nightrunners – 35
Xtra hand weapon

3 gutter runner tunneling team – 63
Poisoned weapon, black skaven

3 gutter runner tunneling team – 51
Poisoned weapon

1 rat swarm - 80
Yellow plague

Warp Lightning Cannon- 100

Rare
20 Plague monks -210
Xtra hand weapon, standard bearer, magic banner (umbranner), musician

5 censer bearers

still thinking about the slaves. plus I am kinda curious what the slave unit of 40 with spears would be able to accomplish. anyway I added another tunnelling team and a yellow death rat swarm. for a total of 1997 points.

instead of the tunnelling team and the rat swarm i could put in 6 jezzails and have 14pts left over. any thoughts??

Teach
08-02-2007, 08:09
The slaves still have ws 2 and the clanrats have 3 so spears on the clanats then. The slaves are there to die! They will run, it does not matter that they are with 40 of them. So in 2 units you have more tactical options. The Jezzails can disrupt some armies but it is hard for them to get their points back. You liked the eshin theme in the beginning so don't drop the tunnelteam (if you still like it).

ArmandB
08-02-2007, 18:49
should I just drop the spears totally? and would it be better to use plaque deacons and maybe 1censer bearer as opposed to 5 censer bearers?? also is it worth it to take poisoned throwing stars for the gutter runners?? is it worth it to get a nightleader for the nightrunners?

Unwise
09-02-2007, 00:26
Do Manflayers take a rare choice? Skaven rare choices are way too cool to spend on any DoW. Both warp cannons and censer bearers are very destructive and great fun.

Also, unless there is some fluff for Manslayers I don't know, they don't come from the 'under dark' that is a DnD thing. They come from an area that is prehaps the furthest away from any skaven population. Still, they travel alot.

ArmandB
09-02-2007, 02:16
not sure.. i think Manflayers take up a rare spot. I no longer have manslayers in my army list though.

gxatzi
13-02-2007, 17:53
I am playing with skaven since the 4th edition and this is my opion:
Playing skaven has lot of fun because you can make many different army lists like the one you are thinking!!! the problem is that after many years playing and having fun (you and your opponent) you will have to ask yourself what army list can win almost anythink.
Here is an army list with lots of fun but only for you (your opponent will hate you)!!!
grey seer (warpstone charm,warpstone amulet) 285pts
25 clanrats (full command,ratling gun)210pts
warlock engineer (full equipped no pistol,storm daemon.dispel)135pts
20 clanrats (full command,ratling gun)185pts
warlock engineer (full equipped no pistol,dispel)110pts
20 clanrats (full command,ratling gun)185pts
warlock engineer (full equipped no pistol,dispel)110pts
20 clanrats (full command,ratling gun)185pts
22 slaves (only musician)48pts
21 slaves (only musician)46pts
warp-lightning cannon 100pts
8 jezzails 160pts
2 rat swarms 90pts
5 gutter runners tunnellers75pts
5 gutter runners tunnellers75pts
tottal 1999pts
All this means:
casting pool 12 (+7 tokens)
dispel pool 7 (+3 dispels)
models in army 152
Also you have 1d6 s5 warp-lightning,3 3d6min or 3 6d6max warp-lightnings,if grey seer takes the spell warp-lightning 1 more d6 or 2d6 s5 lightnings!!!EVERY TERN!!! DEVASTATING!!!
4 ratling guns 18 range and stand & shoot,a good cannon and 8 jezzails for enemy artillery,monters,heavy cavalry,ogres,trolls.......
2 rat swarms for stoping elite enemy units
2 gutter runners tunnellers units with luck can emerge near enemy artillery or charged by frenzy enemy and destroy opponets battle plan
2 units slaves for cannon fodder
For the end, 4 strong clanrats units if something come in charge range
Use this list againts opponets how say that they are the best end always win,give mercy on elfs armys and crash dwarfs, chaos, empire.
It is difficult whith orcs.undead and maybe bretonnias!!
Have lot of fun

gxatzi
13-02-2007, 17:56
gutter runners have unit size of 5-15

ArmandB
14-02-2007, 17:00
Thank you very much for the list. I might adjust mine to this. will the grey seer be better than the warlord? also would this army be stronger than mine i have listed?? i noticed i have no plague bearers or censer? also no night runners? just curious.

gxatzi
17-02-2007, 11:27
this is a full magic-shooting army all opponets will be terrifed after first round of shooting and magic!!worlord has better LD and HtH but you have to charge to use him and probably the enemy will sent the strongest unit and all the shooting against him and the unit he is in!If he wiil not makeit throw you will have a big problem.

ArmandB
17-02-2007, 14:14
thank you for clearing that up.. I kinda like the idea of the seer over the warlord. would you make one of the ratling gun teams a warpfire? also thank so much for your help. as you can see in the other thread it is really coming down to the skaven army you recommend or the wood elf army. Any thoughts on either will be greatly appreciated.

gxatzi
18-02-2007, 09:30
the only reason i dont get firethrowers is that are more expensive and no standard range if your can spent the 15pts try one but only in one more HtH
army list!!!Wood elfs i think is the best elf army but its difficult to face heavy armor armys like chaos

ArmandB
18-02-2007, 14:05
Thank you for the list and information. I am coming up with another couple lists. currently this list (the one you gave me) and the wood elf ones are the top of the poll. Although i am currently testing the hypothesis of an all forest spirit army ;-) will have a different list in a day or two for people to look at. I will be monitoring this and the final decision treads.