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He Who Laughs
17-07-2005, 12:59
Greetings all,

It appears that there is somewhat of a resurgence of interest in the 40K race known as the Jokaero. So in the interest of getting everyone creative juices flowing - here is a thread dedicated to creating a "Fan-dex" for these loveable techno-space-apes. A couple of administrative details to iron-out first:

Ministers thread Index Xenos: Jokaero (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6643) is required reading before posting in this thread - if you don't know what a Jokaero is, learn from Ministers immense brain capacity (or big library, whichever it is ;) )

After reading Ministers thread, you will realise that the Jokaero appear to only resort to violence when they need food or materials - or are defending themselves. They are most often seen in small raider groups. Hence, in order to be true to fluff - Jokaero forces would only be realistically seen in either Kill-Teams, or Combat Patrol sized forces - and thus, the units/weapons/stats should reflect this. Much like the Chapter Approved: Harlequins, for those that have read it.

Okay - spiel over - lets get into it...

TenTailedCat
17-07-2005, 13:12
regarding movement, an obvious steryotypical thing for apes would be an ability to move quickly through jungles or difficult terrain.

He Who Laughs
17-07-2005, 13:17
Hmmm, good point on jungle movement - perhaps "Move Thorugh Cover" USR for jungles/forests only?

Key physilogical info on Jokaero:

Slightly larger/stronger than average human
Vision slightly better than average human
Aversion to close combat
No physical armour worn (energy fields instead)
Bonded to family group (weakness)
High level of organisation/co-ordination
Technical brilliance - reverse engineering

Proposed Jokaero Raider stats:

WS2 / BS3 / S4 / T3 / W1 / I3 / A1 / Ld8 / Sv- (Invulnerable Sv of some sort though)

Thoughts?

TenTailedCat
17-07-2005, 13:35
Maybe an army-wide ability to fix damaged vehicals, similar to Techmarines.

Something similar to the Phase Out rule of the Necrons, perhaps? I remember reading that they won't continue an attack if they take heavy casualties.

If the save is goign to be invulnerable it should probably be a 5, the amount of 3/4 saves are kind of getting out of hand in 40k. Didn't the Index say they have strength roughly similar to humans? Their aversion to close combat would seem to indicate that they don't excel at it, perhaps S3 would be better suited?

He Who Laughs
17-07-2005, 13:48
Yeah - the "aversion to close combat" is a bit of a sticking point in my mind. I'm not too sure about my proposed WS2- just because you don't like something doesn't mean you're automatically bad at it (yes, I am having an argument with myself ;) ) - I mean, I prefer to avoid getting into fights, but I still hold a Shodan black belt...

The idea of a strength of 4 is a bit of a combination of reasons, namely:
1) The slight increase in weight/strength over a human
2) Real-world apes can get really nasty when you **** them off - and can quite easily tear a human apart is suitably aggravated (this links into a few lines of Ministers treatise - not specifically hth fighting, but moreso "Don't spark s&*t with a Jokaero")

Adding/creating new special rules should be a last resort for solving the "aversion to close combat" in my opinion - but it may still have to come to it (Ld test to charge opponents?)

I like the Phase Out idea. Could almost be used verbatim.

And yes - Inv. Save of no more than 5+. However, due to the hi-tech nature, perhaps some interesting variation... hmmm...?

TheSonOfAbbadon
17-07-2005, 13:56
Well, I remember somewhere in Minister's thread he talked about a gun retreived from a Jokaero raider... well...

Plasma Blast Rifle
S:9
Ap:2
Rng: 36"
Type: Assault2

Sound good?

TenTailedCat
17-07-2005, 13:56
Actually you're right, a low WS would probably be better illustation than low strength.
What if they recieve no bonus attacks on the charge? That might do the job.

That plasma gun sounds uber powerful. I agree that they should have great guns but the better they are the more they'll have to suffer in other areas to preserve some semblance of balance.

TheSonOfAbbadon
17-07-2005, 14:02
That plasma gun sounds uber powerful. I agree that they should have great guns but the better they are the more they'll have to suffer in other areas to preserve some semblance of balance.

5+ save, WS2, small family groups, toughness 3, 1 wound, initiative 3, one attack, leadership 8, few close comabt capabilities.

Besides, Jokaero weapons are meant to be uber-powerful. Maybe strength 8 would be better?

He Who Laughs
17-07-2005, 14:05
Well, I remember somewhere in Minister's thread he talked about a gun retreived from a Jokaero raider... well...

Plasma Blast Rifle
S:9
Ap:2
Rng: 36"
Type: Assault2

Sound good?

A bit too good :evilgrin:

Perhaps just plasmaguns without "Gets hot"?

Or pistols with the stats of Tau Pulse Carbines?

TenTailedCat
17-07-2005, 14:10
I think that a good plasma weapon would be the same as a plasma rifle but with Assault 1 or 2 and no overheat - make it limited to say 2 per squad. Still pretty uber but not able to win games all by itself.

TheSonOfAbbadon
17-07-2005, 14:14
Well, the entry does say that an imperial weapon of the same power would have to be infantry heavy or vehicle portable and would have a recharge rate of up to 1 minute instead of the 0.48 of the Jokaero gun. To me that suggests 'fast firing infantry portable lascannon'.

TenTailedCat
17-07-2005, 14:17
Yeah but Bolters are supposed to have mass-reactive warheads which blow a target up from inside and a single Space Marine is supposed to be able to take out a whole squad of Imperial Guardsmen by himself, with nothing but an empty ration tin.
The actual game mechanics rarely match the fluff - it'd unbalance the game too much.

He Who Laughs
17-07-2005, 14:19
You do have a point there TheSonOfAbbadon. Perhaps stats as you suggested - limit one per unit, with a hefty price tag.

EDIT: TenTailedCat, you too have a good point. Maybe a "basic" weapon and basic raider stats should be established first before spiralling into the uber-weapons (Jokaero would have access to all races basic weapons anyway - lasguns, bolters, shuriken catapults, splinter rifles...)

TheSonOfAbbadon
17-07-2005, 14:27
Well, TenTailedCat has a point too, and it is a bit strong.

Plasma Blast Rifle
S:8
Ap:2
Rng:30"
Type:Assault2
Pts:40

Sound better? It's not quite as strong and has less range but is still strong and fast firing.

TenTailedCat
17-07-2005, 14:54
I think the basic troop stats, types and organisation need to be defined before thinking about weapons.

Maybe we should start with HQ and work our way down?

TheSonOfAbbadon
17-07-2005, 16:03
How about an 'Alpha Male' Ape? Or a Jokaero Lord? Something like that.

warlordgrubnatz
17-07-2005, 17:56
I was also thinking of an alpha male character hjere are my current unit ideas

hq ideas
jokaero matriach/ patriarch- high ws/bs. Good leadership values. Prehaps any unit they join becomes feraless

jokaero tecno-preist [need better name]: can fix vehicles and has acces to loooted weapons.

jokaero honor guard: a retinue for characters

elite ideas
jokareo sniper pack- high bs, have long range high power sniper rifles akin to eldar lances/ tau railguns


jokareo feral pack- a normal jokareo plus some feral/ insane ones

troops ideas
raiders: sould be focused on long range combat but be reasnable in cc too. have plasma based special weapons

fast attack ideas
commandoes: stealthy cc jokareo that always have a 3+ cover save and can fllet of foot

heavy support ideas
some sort of gun platforms

rippers: realy big feral jokareo that rip folk apart but are unpredictable

warlordgrubnatz
17-07-2005, 17:58
okay matriarch/ patriarch
ws 3
bs 4
s 4/5
t 4/5
i 6/7
a 2-4
w 3
ld 10
sv 5+ inv

TheSonOfAbbadon
17-07-2005, 18:12
Why initiative 6/7?

warlordgrubnatz
17-07-2005, 18:36
well i thought the jokareo should be quite fast as they are ape-like.

TheSonOfAbbadon
17-07-2005, 18:46
Humans are ape-like, humand have I3 or I4. I think it should be I4 or 5, not 6 or 7.

Puffin Magician
17-07-2005, 22:11
I opened Notepad and jotted down some quick thoughts while I read Minister's post. Here's what I've got:

The Jokaero typically raid isolated colonies for technology, rather than a colonialist expansion of territory. As such, they are always the Attacker when playing a Scenario.

Some sort of bonus for their ability to see into the UV and IR spectrum [acute senses?].

Projectile weapons; "instead produce assorted field effects or containing sophistocated neurotoxins". EM Missiles? Chemical Warheads? This'll be interesting.

Jokaero Troupe - 20pts Ws2, Bs3, s4, t3, w1, i3, a1, Ld8, Sv-/4+I
Squad Size: 7-14 Jokaero
Weapons: Jokaero Lasrifle, Digital Laser, Energy Shield
Options: One model may replace their Lasrifle with one of the following: Plasma Carbine +18pts, Warp Blaster +15pts. Three members of the squad may upgrade their Digital Lasers to Digital Flamers for +4pts, or to Digital Needlers for +8pts.
Character: probably similar to Ork Boyz/Nob

Okay, why so expensive and why the superb 4+I save? Well, they're an incredibly technical race, able to scrounge up exactly what they need with anything that they can get their hands on. They also usually raid in small family groups, so this means the army will have limited numbers, and to be competative they need to survive. 5+I would simply be too low [an entire IG army can be fitted with it, 100+ strong; an army of 20-40 models needs something better], and they do not rely on conventional armour so a save of 4+/5+I, for example, would also be inappropriate. They also have a powerful ranged weapon array, which is IMO appropriate, even on the basic unit, for the race's background and fervour for technology.

0-1 Jokaero Anti-Grav Tank - 160pts
Bs3, 12/12/10, Tank, Skimmer
1 Phalanx Cannon, 2 Hellfire Lasers
Phalanx Cannon: 48" s8 ap2 Heavy d3
Hellfire Laser: 24" s6 ap5 Heavy 3

For now, this is a cheat. It's an Eldar Falcon with the Shuriken Cannon upgrade. I like the stats but I'll need to make my own with the VDR, which will be more expensive. This is okay since Jokaero vehicles are rare.

Weapons:
Digital Laser: 12" s5 ap5 Assault 1
Digital Flamer: Template s3 ap6 Assault 1
Digital Needler: 12" sX ap6 Assault 1
Lasrifle: 24" s4 ap5 Rapid Fire
Plasma Carbine: 30" s6 ap2 Assault 1 Blast
Warp Blaster: 15" sX ap1 Assault 1, Glances vehicles on a 4 or 5, Penetrates on a 6
Vortex Grenade: 12" s- ap- Assault 1 Blast, Models under the template must roll under their initiative or be destroyed. Models partially covered are affected on a 4+. Does not affect Monstrous Creatures or Vehicles. Scatters d6"


Plasma Blast Rifle
S:9 Ap:2 Rng: 36" Type: Assault2
Sound good?
No, it doesn't. Minister's post says that the Imperial equivalent is an Infantry Heavy or tank-mounted weapon; so it's a Plasma Cannon. I'd say 30" s6 ap2 Assault 1 Blast, for +18pts in a Troop unit and 32pts in a Heavy unit [if there is any].


okay Matriarch/Patriarch
ws3 bs4 s4/5 t4/5 i6/7 a2-4 w3 ld10 sv5+ inv
All Jokaero have "an aversion to close combat", so I'd think their assault-based stats [even ones for their HQ] would be rubbish, just like the Tau. Ws4, I5 and A3 is good enough, I think. They rely more on hit & run tactics and high-technology, so some big brutish orange ape lumbering around pummelling people is not the right idea. It would play more of a leadership role, with rules similar to the new SM Captain's [i]Rites of Battle and the Tau Ethereal's Inspiring Presence [along with Price of Failure too, for balance].


well I thought the Jokaero should be quite fast as they are ape-like.
I think so too, but in their Movement, not their dexterity and fighting ability. I'd thought about allowing them to move as cavalry, since they'd be able to run or leap off the sides of obstacles to move faster. They'd likely recieve a bonus for moving through Difficult Terrain as well.

Minister
18-07-2005, 01:14
Myself, having started the idea, I feel entitled to opine.

Firstly, the Jokaero will have a BS within the BS 3 brackes, as both the Guard and Fiire Warriors, who are professional warriors, have this stat. With gonzo kill-guns there is no balence with a BS 4.
An aversion to Close COmbat can be worked in one of two ways, firstly a pants close combat stat (WS 1 or the like), second a simply not very good (WS 2, as with other untrained persons) and no specialist close combat weapons of any kind. Restrict the S 4 to patriachs/matriachs (HQ or squad leader) rather than making it universal. Keep the initiative down to 3 for normal units too, but have it as the standard squad leader upgrade rather than attacks.

The weapon listed was entirley from my own mind, and was intended as an example of a possible weapon rather than the standard firearm. You may concider this as a wargear item (Jokaero by the way should have heavy weapons as armoury options) rather than a full-squad gun.

Puffin Magician
18-07-2005, 01:41
The weapon listed was entirley from my own mind, and was intended as an example of a possible weapon rather than the standard firearm.
Well I hope I interpreted it correctly, sometimes it's hard to seperate canon GW background to well-written "housefluff".


Jokaero by the way should have heavy weapons as armoury options.
For all Characters? Including Squad leaders? Intriguing...

TenTailedCat
18-07-2005, 14:38
I love how Minister's right all the time. I smell a conspiracy.

Burn him.

In other news... is there any artwork for the jokearo? Might make it easier to determine equipment and such, though I suppose it's a faint hope, they've always been a very obscure race.

Puffin Magician
18-07-2005, 16:43
I don't remember any artwork except the BBB [there was a sketch in there, right?], and they only ever had that 1 model produced so long ago.

Unfortunately, we get descriptions of them in their background. They rely on energy fields rather than armour [so they look more like natural oragutans], and cannibalize the technology they capture, giving it a haphazard appearance [and all their kit looks Orky]. Probably the least visually appealing race in the game: Planet of the Apes + Road Warrior.

TenTailedCat
18-07-2005, 17:56
Hmm, yes I've read the description but saying 'they look like oranutans' isn't the most enlightening thing I ever heard (no offence is intended to the people who did an excellent job on the Index) I've just done a quick google and had a look at some pictures.
whilst they're certainly the most expressive and almost humanlike creatures I've ever seen I can't help but feel it would be lazy to simply have orangutans with guns. Perhaps they'd do well with some minor modifications. I wouldn't have the faintest clue what though, steamrollering even ancient fluff is something I'd be loath to do.

warlordgrubnatz
18-07-2005, 19:20
realy not liking the 4+ invunreble save. marneus calgar only has a 5+ inv save and the basic troops have a 4+. I suggest just not giving them any save. this will alow you to drop the points cost.

Puffin Magician
18-07-2005, 19:42
Well Marneus Calgar also has a standard 2+ armour save, remember? Jokaero don't. Jokaero have better field technology than the pathetic Imperial Refractor field.

Their save is good at representing their ability to create powerful technology [though it physically resembles that of the Orks, it's comparable in quality to that of the Eldar], and if their points cost were low they'd be a horde army, which they are not. The Jokaero is an army that only fights in small numbers, and armies that have low models need better armour saves as compensation; see Chaos Marines, Deathwing, Necrons, etc.

TenTailedCat
18-07-2005, 20:30
Harlequins would probably be the best comparison to what should be achieved, though with slightly larger groups and lower ability (especially in combat).

How about a 4+ armour save and a 5+ invulnerable save?
Both could be represented as part of the energy shields they use, against norma wepaons you take your armour save but still have a chance at a save even when hit by a lascannon.

Oh.. I just had a nice idea... I remember in the Inquisition book there's a shield which, if you pass your save for it, simply teleports you out of danger. It doesn't offer any actual protection, it you fail the save you take full damage and stay where you are.
That could be a neat little bit of wargear. Make it expensive, invulnerable save of maybe 3 or 4+, if the save is passed the model or unit which is equipped with it is teleported d6" in a direction determined by the scatter dice.

Offers a nice bit of randomness - on the one hand it could teleport you right into cover, on the other hand it could send you into charge range of Khorne Beserkers. If it accidentaly sends you into a vehical or building then the model dies, or the unit loses a set amount of models, determined by further armour saves.

TheSonOfAbbadon
18-07-2005, 21:19
slightly larger groups

No, smaller groups, better guns!

Puffin Magician
18-07-2005, 21:29
Oh.. I just had a nice idea... I remember in the Inquisition book there's a shield which, if you pass your save for it, simply teleports you out of danger. It doesn't offer any actual protection, it you fail the save you take full damage and stay where you are. That could be a neat little bit of wargear. Make it expensive, invulnerable save of maybe 3 or 4+, if the save is passed the model or unit which is equipped with it is teleported d6" in a direction determined by the scatter dice.
IIRC that's a Displacement Field.


Offers a nice bit of randomness - on the one hand it could teleport you right into cover, on the other hand it could send you into charge range of Khorne Beserkers. If it accidentaly sends you into a vehical or building then the model dies, or the unit loses a set amount of models, determined by further armour saves.
This is completely the wrong way to go. The Jokaero aren't bumbling technoidiots like Orks; they subconsciously know exactly what they're doing, technical skill is an inherent instinct the they possess. If the Jokaero developed a field like this, it would do exactly what they want it to do [and flitting about randomly is something they wouldn't want to do].


No, smaller groups, better guns!
Precisely.

TenTailedCat
18-07-2005, 21:47
What!? How dare you shoot down my ideas you Poltroon!

A displacement field sint some bumbling ork tech, it's high grade and very useful as far as I can see. And as for being smaller groups than harlies, are you joking? Harlies are small elite formaions, whereas Jokearo are more like packs of monkeys - smaller than an army certainly but certainly not the small hightly organised hit squads of special forces proportions.

Minister
19-07-2005, 00:50
I love how Minister's right all the time. I smell a conspiracy.

Burn him.

In other news... is there any artwork for the jokearo? Might make it easier to determine equipment and such, though I suppose it's a faint hope, they've always been a very obscure race.

Heretic! Thou shalt not speak such blasphemy unto me! I declare thee Excomunicate in extremis Hereticus, thrice damned by afiliation, association and belief. Thou shalt feel the fire of Retribution!

In 2nd edition 40K the Displacer Field gave a 3+ invuinerable save, combined with a D6 scatter on a sucessful use. However, quite sensibly, this was dropped from 40K as overly time-intensive (along with wandering plasma grenades and the ilk).

It strikes that a 5+ invunerable save is plentiful for the standard trooper, perhaps combined with a 4+ armour as suggested. When you get to the HQ you can break out the really cool stuff.

Oh, and I demand a throne-sled in the style of Dominar Rygel XVI as an option for HQ units.

TenTailedCat
19-07-2005, 02:05
Hm, so no displacer fields then.

Has anyone given thought to all Jokearo having an ability similar to that of a techmarine? That they can repair vehicals mid battle provided they pass a test. That would seem quite characterful.

Puffin Magician
19-07-2005, 12:49
Has anyone given thought to all Jokearo having an ability similar to that of a techmarine?
Although I think this rule would go along well with their background, I don't believe it would be used enough to justify a special rule being written. Jokaero vehicles are very rarely encountered [they're a small raiding force, remember] so I'd imagine a 0-1 cap of any armoured unit in the army.

The Displacement Field seems too random for the Jokaero to utilize it [although they're probably capable of reproducing it with ease], and they're just as able to manufacture their own power fields.

5+I seems too poor, and adding a standard 4+ Armour save to boost their surviveability to acceptable levels doesn't accurately portray them as an army. The troops with access to 5+I saves are both hordes; Eldar Guardians [Warlock Power Conceal] and Imperial Guardsmen [Doctrine Cyber-Enhancement] [those are all I can remember right now]. Wyches have a 4+I save in Assaults [where they spend most of their time] and this is perfectly fluffy and nobody seems to contest that either. The Wyches and Jokaero both share T3, but then the difference start; the Dark Eldar's obvious leaning towards combat where the Jokaero would be firepower oriented. Now that I think about it, actually, the Jokaero could be considered a shooty version of the DE Wych Cult list.

If 40k were a d10 game a 7+I save would be best... not too great, not too shabby for a standard trooper either.

Look at the Necrons for example. All their "Necron" units have the WBB rule as well as a decent defencive statline of T4 and a 3+ save. Since the Jokaero army would have a worse statline, in addition to having even less models than a Necron army of similar points [closer to half, even?], I don't believe a 4+I save would be too advantageous. I'm talking about a Jokaero army numbering between 15 and 25 models; a 4+I being standard really doesn't seem overly powerful to me. How long to units with a 5+I save last?


...smaller than an army certainly but certainly not the small highly organised hit squads.
Yes, I was agreeing with the "keep it small" concept, not stressing that it should be absolutely puny. They should be similar to the Harlequins in terms of numbers, not equivalent.

TheSonOfAbbadon
22-07-2005, 12:37
Aversion to close combat: All Jokaero have an aversion to close combat, and prefer to stay at range using their powerful guns.

Jokaero may fall back 3D6 out of close combat if the Jokaero player wishes to do so at anytime during the assault phase. If the Jokaero make their attacks on the enemy the enemy must attack back before the Jokaero can fall back.


I think the Jokaero would have some long range barrage guns, like the Eldar heavy weapon grav platforms but more powerful, instead of mounting larger guns on tanks and vehicles. Of course, when they do break out the vehicles they'll have to be pimped up with tons of guns.

cardboard_armour
16-10-2005, 20:33
Here's my 72 cents...

Jokaero
WS 3
Bs 3
S 3
T 4
W 1
I 3
A 1
LD 8
Save 5+ Invulnerable

Its quite a mundane statline as I think most should be. Quite close to human without going into space marine wishful thinking. Like the Tau the Jokaero should be defined by techical feats rather than impressive stats.

The invulnerable save from a field is a MUST. It states they wear no armour.
A 4+ invulnerable save would be rediculously good. 5+ is more realistic. I'd quite like it if Jokaeros started wearing a few clothes though. To make them stand out a bit more and to stop them looking just like wildlife. T-shirts and no trousers. :D
Something hippyish with lots of beads and natural stuff.

I'd quite like to see a nutty monstrous ape of sorts. A Jokaero who has reverted to primitive ways. Devolution supplying a token close combat monster to keep the army from just being a gunline.

Arboreals
WS 3
BS 1
S 5
T 4
W 3
I 3
A 3
LD 8
Save none
Furious Charge and Fearless
Independant

Maybe they're a bit good. Its the idea I'm in love with though. Apes tearing peoples arms off and slavering all over the place.

In terms of gun naming (probably the most increasingly difficult part of making a new 40K army) I think we should veer towards a more prosaic, functional feel. Jokaero do not have a language. They are either mute or just go OOK I'm not sure. They also continually modify guns so that there would be no standard issue.

The guns should be designated methodical names such as:

Alpha gun, Beta gun , Gamma gun etc
or
Pattern 487, Pattern 52, Pattern 123 etc

or even based on simple easily pointed out concepts such as

Rock, Sun, Sky, River
or
Red, Orange, Yellow, Blue, Scarlet, Indigo

I doubt Jokaero have R&D departments and they would not put merit in a deadly sounding name. It is more likely that they each have a memorized list of differant gun patterns in their genetic memory and pick and choose them based on the situation at hand.
It may even be a good rule to let Jokaero squads modify their guns mid-game either every turn like Obliterators or on a lesser basis. Maybe they could give up a turn's shooting to change weapons.

Although it states that Jokaero weapons are stupidly powerful it would not be great for game balance to have every fella carrying the equivilent of a tank mounted gun on his shoulder. Not quite sure where to draw the line though. Tau are stretching it with a S5 troop weapon. Any higher would be ridiculous right?

nurgle_boy
17-10-2005, 08:42
ok, it may be me just being silly, but how about an army list selection similar to the last chancers?

theyre less organised, though still in small groups, and can all take individual weapons (though a limit on 'superweapons' as it were)

would something like it work?