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Iracundus
30-01-2007, 16:18
In case people are wondering where these are from: Imperial Armor 2. Constructive comments welcome. I know they're very similar but then they're very similar in Imperial Armor 2.

Raven

Type: Fighter
Hits: 1
Maneuver: Very High
Max Speed: 9
Min Speed: 2
Max Altitude: 9
Thrust: 4

Weapons:
1. Splinter cannon Front 3-2-0 6+ Ammo 5
2. Dark Lances Front 1-1-0 2+ Ammo 4 Extra Damage 6

Razorwing

Type: Fighter
Hits: 1
Maneuver: Very High
Max Speed: 9
Min Speed: 2
Max Altitude: 9
Thrust: 4

Weapons:
1. Splinter cannon Front 6-3-0 6+ Ammo 5
2. Dark Lances Front 1-1-0 2+ Ammo 4 Extra Damage 6

mattjgilbert
30-01-2007, 16:22
Hits 1 is what I'd expect. Fast but Fragile. Thrust 4 is high. Would 3 be better?

Iracundus
30-01-2007, 16:28
Dark Eldar are supposed to be the speed demons of the 40K universe, even more so than Craftworld Eldar. Since speed caps at 9, there's nothing else that can be varied to distinguish them other than Thrust. Thrust is also going to be more useful overall than a hypothetical max speed 10.

In IA2, there is no max speed listed for the Dark Eldar craft though there are speeds listed for Craftworld Eldar. This implies the Dark Eldar can manage even faster.

Sybaronde
30-01-2007, 16:36
In IA2, there is no max speed listed for the Dark Eldar craft though there are speeds listed for Craftworld Eldar. This implies the Dark Eldar can manage even faster.

Actually, it just implies that there aren't any recorded max speeds for Dark Eldar aircraft. :p

Wolflord Havoc
30-01-2007, 18:22
I would also imply that in addition to scoring points for landing troops any 'troop transporter' can also be used to remove slaves from the battlefield.
Basically once it has spent a turn landing troops if it likes it can spend another turn being loaded with prisoners and if it makes it off the table or survives the scenario it scores double for troop deployment. After all this is the reason for the Dark Eldar going to war in the first place.

Also given that the Dark Eldar are not renowned for their desire for 'slugging it out' they should have a bug out % penalty of perhaps 33% or 50% or less remaining instead of 25% or less remaining aircraft.

Bravery exists
30-01-2007, 18:27
I know they are supposed to be fragile but with only one hit it would be incredibly easy to down! give them seomthing akin to the holofield at least, or you could make them dirt cheap so you can flood the skies with them.

Wolflord Havoc
30-01-2007, 18:37
I know they are supposed to be fragile but with only one hit it would be incredibly easy to down! give them seomthing akin to the holofield at least, or you could make them dirt cheap so you can flood the skies with them.

Perhaps a Dark Field which gives a 6+ save during a day fight but a 4+ in any night or low light scenario. I think 1 hit is okay. The Hell Blades are 1 Hit fighters.

mattjgilbert
30-01-2007, 19:13
Normal bug out is at less than 50% anyway...

Duckman
30-01-2007, 19:18
you can't forget that the dark elder also would usethe VOID DRAGON PHOENIX

Tastyfish
30-01-2007, 19:35
The Void Dragons are a Corsair band, not a Dark Eldar Cabal aren't they? Totally different thing from the webway dwelling cousins, they are the sort of pirates which the BFG list is based around

Ixajin
30-01-2007, 19:41
They are a sub culture all thier own, but they are known to fight alongside the Dark Eldar as well.

Slekith
30-01-2007, 19:47
Thrust 4 is way too much! 3 is already a very impresive thrust value. A part from that, i think it could work but having only 2 fighters the number of scenarios available would be very scarce. Maybe the Razorwing should be allowed to carry some ground-attacking purposes weapons load so that it could count as Fighter-Bomber.

Duckman
30-01-2007, 20:19
or forgeworld could always make up a bomber I'm sure the dark elder have one cus after they get there slaves theres really no reason the wouldn't clean the place up :P

mattjgilbert
30-01-2007, 20:28
I still agree with the Thrust thing. 3 is enough I think.

Spacker
30-01-2007, 20:40
Why would the DE need a bomber? A fighter is perfectly capable of destroying targets on the ground, even the Eldar don't actually have "bombers" - the Vampire class might be "bomber", but they don't actually have bombs and so need to strafe just like the Nightwing or Phoenix would.

And I agree with the Thrust suggestion too, 3 is plenty.

CELS
30-01-2007, 20:45
I don't see Dark Eldar having bombers, either. They're not really known for their weapons of mass destruction. They cripple and capture. Give them a transport and they're good to go.

As for the single hit point, keep in mind that Dark Eldar make much use of shadow fields, so these could probably use the same rules as holo fields, or very similar rules.

I can't really comment too much on the rules, since I don't have the books, but I would imagine that Dark Eldar craft could hover in the air, given their anti-grav technology.

mattjgilbert
30-01-2007, 21:11
Rules are upstairs but I don't even the Eldar ones have Min Speed 0: i.e. can hover. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong ;)

Iracundus
30-01-2007, 23:09
There is a precedent for 1 Hit aircraft already in the Hell Blade. The 40K stats for the Dark Eldar craft in IA2 have no fields while the Craftworld Eldar ones do, hence why no field in the above AI stats.

The Thrust 4 was to try and distinguish the Dark Eldar a little more over the Hell Blade and the Nightwing. The Eldar (all Eldar) fluffwise are supposed to have some of the best aircraft. The Dark Eldar are even more fragile, but supposedly faster, however the weaponry is lighter than the Nightwing and the Dark Lances are just equivalent to the Bright Lances and Lascannons. So those are 2 disadvantages already built in, and I was seeking an advantage to counterbalance. A hypothetical Speed 10 wouldn't be as practically useful since the usefulness of that additional 2" movement over speed 9 is debateable compared to the undoubted usefulness of Thrust 4.

mattjgilbert
31-01-2007, 08:32
Thrust 4 is a huge boost though. Simply reducing the points compared to the Eldar "equivalent" craft would be enough in the way of compensation?

Cohinor
31-01-2007, 09:12
Thrust 3 would be more then enough, they'd totally control the sky with Thrust 4, you would never be able to line up good shots against them even with a huge number of planes. They might be fast in the Background of W40k but Thrust 4 is too much in that way. Eldar have Thrust 2 and are by faar one of the fastest. Dark Eldar should be thrust 3 no more. Too high and you could be breaking the game. With Thrust 3 give them some more firepower or give them a "Speed Dodge 5+" Resembling their acrobatic and speed demon like fly ability zig zaging around and dodging incomming fire.

cheers
Cohinor

Iracundus
31-01-2007, 11:30
I'm hesitant to start tacking on additional rules outside the base mechanics. That lies the way to "codex creep". If there really is such opposition to Thrust 4, then it can go down to 3 and point cost adjusted.

I'm also hesitant to just give them a 5+ save like the Craftworld Eldar craft, else the Dark Eldar are at risk of turning into just spiky clones of the Eldar.

mattjgilbert
31-01-2007, 11:52
I'm also hesitant to just give them a 5+ save like the Craftworld Eldar craft, else the Dark Eldar are at risk of turning into just spiky clones of the Eldar.Agreed. Hits 1 and lower cost does make a big difference though.

If they were going to get a save of any kind, how about a 6+ save against all damage to represent the speed/dodge abillity of the aircraft? (similar to what Cohinor suggested)

CyberShadow
31-01-2007, 15:49
I started thinking about the dark Eldar too. This is how far I got:

http://www.tacticalwargames.net/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=78;t=8341

Cohinor
31-01-2007, 16:50
If you really wanted to show off the Dark Eldar Speed Demon Ability, i guess you could stay with thrust 2-3, 1 hit and let them play out 2 manouvre cards each round :) .

cheers
Cohinor

Duckman
31-01-2007, 19:06
if the dark elder are so fast wouldn't you give them a higher speed and less manouverability cards?

mattjgilbert
31-01-2007, 19:08
Less than one? And speed 9 is the fastest they can be anyway.

Duckman
31-01-2007, 19:10
not less then one just one card and make it easyer for them to get to 9 and make it harder for them to slow down

Easy E
19-11-2007, 12:01
***Threadomancy****

The DE Codex has a piece of vehicle wargear called a Night Shield, it essentially limits the range of other vehicles attacking them. Could the night shield also be used on their fighter craft? Instead of a simple 5+ save, it could reduce the number of shots that can be made at them from range.

Also, the new Apoc datasheets allow limited flight by Raiders and Ravagers, could this be integrated into AI as their tranpsort options or are they too slow/unwieldly?

I like the idea of more manuevers being accomplished by DE then other foes to represent the agility/speed of their craft. I'm not sur eif that would be unbalancing, perhaps you could add some mods to the second manuever? Like it can only be executed on a 5+?

I don't have the AI rules, so I'm just throwing junk at a wall and hoping some sticks. However, the Idea of AI DE makes me more interested in the game rather than less.

Edit: Perhaps the Razorwing could have 2 hits since it is 2 Ravens welded together? It would help differentiate it.

tabletopnews
19-11-2007, 15:31
***Threadomancy****

The DE Codex has a piece of vehicle wargear called a Night Shield, it essentially limits the range of other vehicles attacking them. Could the night shield also be used on their fighter craft? Instead of a simple 5+ save, it could reduce the number of shots that can be made at them from range.

Given the name it might be appropriate to have the Night rules effect the plane during daylight scenarios.

Tyra_Nid
20-11-2007, 00:56
. Eldar have Thrust 2 and are by faar one of the fastest. Dark Eldar should be thrust 3 no more.


Eldar have Thrust 3....

DarkAzrael169
21-11-2007, 22:10
Personally, I think DE have the same pilot skill or greater than Craftworld Eldar... I mean its what they do for a living and take pleasure in it. The should have a higher thrust, however I have mixed emotions about them having one hit. Has anyone played Eldar? There shooting is horrible even in close range and to have regular 6+ shooting... Heres the dilema: Have one hit point and they also have all this shooting, 3+ pilot skill and all this speed and skill... So either the DE have one hit point and less shooting... then there are alought of Razorwings that are around the points of a Barricuda. Have them have two hit points and they will be even more expensive than Craftworld Eldar... If we are all to come up with some rules for Dark Eldar then we have to decide wether they are to become numerous or very few... These from what I have seen seem to be a good basis to go off of for rules of the Razorwing. For the one hit fighter, I cannot find a way to counterbalance all it's speed... maybe if the regular shooting is 6+ instead...

Razorwing

Type: Fighter
Hits: 1
Maneuver: Very High
Max Speed: 9
Min Speed: 3
Max Altitude: 9
Thrust: 4

Weapons:
1. Splinter cannon Front 4-2-0 5+ Ammo 4
2. Dark Lances Front 1-1-0 2+ Ammo 3 Extra Damage 6

Special Rules
Holo-field 5+ save against all damages it recieves
Night Fighting Rules against all shooting it recieves

OR
Razorwing

Type: Fighter
Hits: 2
Maneuver: Very High
Max Speed: 9
Min Speed: 3
Max Altitude: 9
Thrust: 4

Weapons:
1. Splinter cannon Front 6-3-0 5+ Ammo 5
2. Dark Lances Front 1-1-0 2+ Ammo 4 Extra Damage 6

Special Rules
Holo-field 5+ save against all damages it recieves
Night Fighting Rules against all shooting it recieves

Easy E
05-01-2008, 19:09
I was reading the BFG rules about the DE and they had a piece of wargear called a Mimic Engine. It essentially screens the craft from sensors and makes the enemy believe the craft is really one of their own. They can't target it in the first turn, until they realize what's up. Perhaps something like this in AI?

@Dark Azraeil- I would ditch the Holo-field. They should count on the Night Shield, speed, and manuever. I don't know anything about AI, but I would imagine that the Razorwing would have 2 hits and the Raven 1.

SquishySquig
07-01-2008, 00:41
:skull: I like the idea of the mimic engine. It goes well with the whole concept that DE always attack by surprise and gives them a unique advantage. It also helps to keep their 1 hit aircraft from being sniped at long long range first turn.

Has anyone built any AI scale DE aircraft?
:skull:

fattdex
07-01-2008, 01:46
Possible mimic engine rules- a DE craft may not be targeted at long or medium range until a hit has been made on them at short range?

Steam_Giant
07-01-2008, 21:48
It essentially screens the craft from sensors and makes the enemy believe the craft is really one of their own. They can't target it in the first turn, until they realize what's up. Perhaps something like this in AI?

So far i have only played 10+ games of AI, I have yet to play a game where i was in range and Alt in the first turn.


Possible mimic engine rules- a DE craft may not be targeted at long or medium range until a hit has been made on them at short range?

Seems ok, maybe make it un-targetable at long range only until fired upon at medium or short range ?

Tarascon
09-01-2008, 09:54
Haha, there should be a DE "bomber" that drops talos on people. It's the only way the stupid things can make it to the battlefield in any decent amount of time.

I'd say use the 1 hit statline, DarkAzrael, but drop the 5+ save to a 6+, or leave it out entirely.

In BFG eldar ships have holofields that shift incoming fire to be worse, would that work in this case? (With a clause for weapons that get better as they move further away, ie going from close to medium range)

Easy E
10-01-2008, 09:50
Perhaps the nightshield could shift ranges from short to medium at all times?