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View Full Version : Were to find the “perfect” dice?



FireN.Brimstone
31-01-2007, 03:28
If we take THIS (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65531&page=5&highlight=roll)thread as gospel, we should all be Flush Spot (i.e. the pips/numbers are not indented), square cornered dice. The most common example of these are the Casio Dice (sometimes called precision dice). The problem here is two fold. First they are rather large, 3/4" (19mm) where ideally they should be 12mm (1/2”) (for reference a “standard” sized die is 16mm or 5/8”). Secondly they’re generally quite expensive. So the challenge is this, where to find a casino/precision cut style die that is small enough and cheap enough to be useful for wargaming.

For anyone that’s interested I’ve found a 12mm CASINO DIE (http://www.gamestation.net/product/QPI219312), for $5 a die

FearFrost
31-01-2007, 05:42
$5 EACH!?!

Ridiculous. Tactics win games, not a slight statistical anomaly fixed by incredibly expensive dice.

Arch-Traitor Horus
31-01-2007, 05:45
$2 for 20 at my local $2 shop:p

SuperMitch
31-01-2007, 05:50
http://gamestation.net/category/1003/

That's a site that sells the 12'' dice without rounded corners. I know they sell dice with drilled pips, but that did not account for much of the problem of the die rolling - only a .023 higher chance of a 1.

@FearFrost, I'm actually kind of surprised at your response. If the experiment were even remotely correct and we were looking at a .29 chance of getting a 1 instead of the correct .1667 then there will be serious differences in the results of almost all of your rolls. Calling the anomoly "slight" when the chance of a certain face showing up is almost double seems rather flippant in the face of some pretty serious numbers.

Sergeant Tanthius
31-01-2007, 06:35
Geez man, it's a game, and that does not require precission like that. We aren't betting on anything. Of course the probabilities of a dice won't be exactly 1/6 on each side, but it doesn't even matter. Besides, if we use those dice than local GW shops will go bankrupt, considering how much dice is lost by little kids.

Angelus Mortis
31-01-2007, 11:00
I think the real thing to point out would be that as long as you and your opponent both have crappy dice, it shouldn't be an issue.

jfrazell
31-01-2007, 12:36
Or you both play with the same set of dice. But really, this is reaching a bit of anality here.

Voodoo Boyz
31-01-2007, 13:09
http://www.gamestation.net/product/GSD6B

Just ordered 10 of those, came out to under $10, worth it to experiment with anyway.

Midnight_Walker
31-01-2007, 13:11
Or you both play with the same set of dice. But really, this is reaching a bit of anality here.

Agreed. It's a game, dammit. Nobody's life is on the line. So you roll a few more 1s here and there than you otherwise should - so what? As long as my opponent is using the same 'flawed' dice then it's ok.

If I turn up with casino dice, and he still has crappy rounded, drilled dice, then I'm actually at an unfair advantage, and that's not fair either.

Anyway, if we all had 'perfect' dice, those 'anything but a 1' rolls that always fail would be far less exciting...

Toy soldiers guys, chill out.

Voodoo Boyz
31-01-2007, 13:20
Um, I'd rather play the game with statistics rolling out the way they should - you know how the game was DESIGNED to work.

Besides I'll be letting my opponents use my dice if they want, and for a grand total of $9 I'm happy with the purchase.

FireN.Brimstone
31-01-2007, 16:26
I also found dice from Gamescience seem to be the "perfect" according to our new "standards." A good assortment of there D6s can be found HERE (http://www.advancinghordes.com/index.php?cPath=2_61_8&sort=2a&filter_id=2).

Frodo34x
31-01-2007, 17:44
Well, the thing is, if both you and your opponent use crappy dice, it does not end up the same. For example, supposing I have loads and loads of plasma weapons, whereas you do not. Better dice would help me more than you.

I guess the same can be said about other extremes, such as a deathwing army next to an IG army (The deathwing would be surviving made 50% more often, whereas the IG would not have as much of a boost to their save).

bnf
31-01-2007, 17:53
If I turn up with casino dice, and he still has crappy rounded, drilled dice, then I'm actually at an unfair advantage, and that's not fair either.

Um, it's not like you loaded your dice. You just removed an unfair advantage the dice manufacturer creates because they can safe money in production costs. Your opponent is at liberty to do the same.
Knowledge is power.

Warp Zero
31-01-2007, 18:20
Agreed. It's a game, dammit. Nobody's life is on the line. So you roll a few more 1s here and there than you otherwise should - so what? As long as my opponent is using the same 'flawed' dice then it's ok.

If I turn up with casino dice, and he still has crappy rounded, drilled dice, then I'm actually at an unfair advantage, and that's not fair either.

Anyway, if we all had 'perfect' dice, those 'anything but a 1' rolls that always fail would be far less exciting...

Toy soldiers guys, chill out.


Hey, if we have the money to spend...I don't see anything wrong with buying precision d6's. I'll be buying some. Actually, I had 2 already from a long time ago. Just want more now....and ones that aren't so huge. I'm not worked up about it....but in a game where the odds are 1-6, where the difference between 1 and 2 are huge.....yeah.....if I can afford precision dice, I'll do it. If this game rolled d12's or d20's I'd probably not care as much.

I personally know its not a big deal. But hey....if I can get 'em ....why not? In my club, we don't have community dice. Everyone brings their own. Making everyone use the same set is not an option. Because 1 or 2 players would probably refuse to do it. And its not such a big deal as to warrant making trouble over the issue. So, I'm buying some precision dice for myself. But I'm not forcing anyone else to use 'em or anything.

I'll see how it goes.



Or you both play with the same set of dice. But really, this is reaching a bit of anality here.


Some would argue that buying Forgeworld chapter specific shoulder pads for your Marines is anal. "Man, just use the transfers!" Heck, I paint a ton of little runes on my Warlocks and Farseers. I'm already in the land of anal. If I'm anal with my painting....isn't in okay to be the same with my dice?

FearFrost
31-01-2007, 18:49
http://gamestation.net/category/1003/

That's a site that sells the 12'' dice without rounded corners. I know they sell dice with drilled pips, but that did not account for much of the problem of the die rolling - only a .023 higher chance of a 1.

@FearFrost, I'm actually kind of surprised at your response. If the experiment were even remotely correct and we were looking at a .29 chance of getting a 1 instead of the correct .1667 then there will be serious differences in the results of almost all of your rolls. Calling the anomoly "slight" when the chance of a certain face showing up is almost double seems rather flippant in the face of some pretty serious numbers.

I dont buy it. The chance of rolling a "1" almost 1 in 3 times just doesn't sound right to me, pips or no pips, experiment or no experiment.

And buying squared-off dice because you believe it is one thing. Fine. Buying them for 5 dollars EACH is what I lost my hat over ;)

Frost

Permanganate
31-01-2007, 19:22
Making everyone use the same set is not an option. Because 1 or 2 players would probably refuse to do it.

Seems silly to me. Only community dice, all of the same type, can be fair. Even without loaded dice (and how do you know there are none?) one model of dice will roll very differently from another.


Some would argue that buying Forgeworld chapter specific shoulder pads for your Marines is anal. "Man, just use the transfers!"

Well, moulded shoulder pads do look a lot better than even an expertly done transfer...and it's hard to do transfers right.

SuperMitch
31-01-2007, 20:45
And buying squared-off dice because you believe it is one thing. Fine. Buying them for 5 dollars EACH is what I lost my hat over ;)


On that, I can more than agree :p. I'm scouring the net now for a decent deal for the similar small dice to those I used before - just with square corners now. My guard friend who frequently misses with every man portable heavy weapon in his army is also very interested in some new dice!

scramasax
31-01-2007, 21:13
There is also semi-precision dice. They cost less than precision dice but have a lot of the same advantage

the more important factor is the fact the there is no hole drilled into the plastic to unbalance the die. The material need to not have air bubble and the material to make the 2nd color for the points is the same as the body of the dice. So they may take a material that cost less if they do it like that.

The major difference is more in the fact that those dice are also moulded instead of being laser cut like precision dice and cost less because of that.


Rounded edge compare to sharp corner only make the die roll a longer time.

kermit
31-01-2007, 21:23
I also found dice from Gamescience seem to be the "perfect" according to our new "standards." A good assortment of there D6s can be found HERE (http://www.advancinghordes.com/index.php?cPath=2_61_8&sort=2a&filter_id=2).

Too bad they don't have dimensions... decent price though...

Edit: Nevermind... if you click on the actual dice in the description... then they have the dice on a penny...

jfrazell
31-01-2007, 21:32
I'm already in the land of anal. If I'm anal with my painting....isn't in okay to be the same with my dice?

You're right. Its your money, go for it. I can't say anything- I spend money on overpriced toy soldiers for crying out loud :D

I'd just get the cool Vegas craps dice, because its Vegas craps dice.
:cool:

kermit
31-01-2007, 22:45
Anyone from Vegas here?!?!

How much are the dice from the stores?

Please anyone from Vegas, let us know!

Penitent
01-02-2007, 01:35
Um, I'd rather play the game with statistics rolling out the way they should - you know how the game was DESIGNED to work.

Hey, do what you want. Honestly, I'm interested in finding some casino dice myself. Your statement raises a question though: How was the game DESIGNED to work? Were units/unit values/rules designed based on PROBABILITY or were they designed based on in-game tested results, and if the latter, what kind of dice were used?

Voodoo Boyz
01-02-2007, 02:27
One would assume it was a mix of both, any anomolies shown up in game would just be written off as "well I'm rolling bad today, but my terminators should only die from bolters 16% of the time so XX points is right for them!"

You know, kind of how our preponderance of 1's in a game might be written off mentally as "Man I can't roll dice today!" till someone came around and proved that the GW ones actually roll like crap.

DoctorTom
01-02-2007, 03:16
Um, I'd rather play the game with statistics rolling out the way they should - you know how the game was DESIGNED to work.

Besides I'll be letting my opponents use my dice if they want, and for a grand total of $9 I'm happy with the purchase.

If you're that worried about having the statistics rolling out the way they should, then maybe you should use computer-generated random dice rolls instead of searching for the 'perfect' physical dice.

Yurtalpus
01-02-2007, 05:48
possably a bad idea since 1) no one is going to let you use a digital device to roll for you and 2) they arnt random.

Sakura
01-02-2007, 06:21
BOTH USE SAME DICE PROBLEM SOLVED.

By having squarer dice than your opponent almost makes you a cheater. ;)

Midnight_Walker
01-02-2007, 08:14
Um, it's not like you loaded your dice.

I might as well have. I will roll a 1 16% of the time with these super dice. My opponent will roll a 1 26% of the time, was it? That's not fair.

Anyway, I'm not sure I believe all this nonsense. I haven't really noticed myself rolling 1s 1/4 of the time, to tell the truth, and I think I would have. 1/4 is a lot. It would be noticable. I'm not about to change my whole perspective on the game just because some guy on the internet said so. It seems that it's now just a blind horde of followers that are clinging to this like it's gospel and are using it retrospectively as their reason for rolling a lot of ones in that game where it would have really mattered...

Last game, I made 4 out of about 5 or 6 invulnerables on Zoanthropes. Do you know what the invulnerable of a Zoanthrope is? This was on crappy dice, mind you. If they were really that crap I never would have, according to this. I just had a lucky day. It happens. So do unlucky days. That's all there is to it, IMO.

KaldCB
01-02-2007, 08:16
No its not!
I play Deathwing and very heavy plasma chaos. and agains most pepole, im at a disadvantage.
I just orderd 50 used casino from the war store, cost 25$
not so bad, and you can sell halv of it to a friend if you want you dont need more then 25.

Vegeta365
01-02-2007, 08:31
Too bad they don't have dimensions... decent price though...

Edit: Nevermind... if you click on the actual dice in the description... then they have the dice on a penny...


That picture is a 1 cent coin I believe? Does that make the dice 12mm? For all I know a cent could be bigger than an english £2 coin lol.

Just asking for referance as I would be happy to use these dice, but not at the expense of all the jeering I would get for using large dice at my local store.

Thanks for anyone in the know.

Hawkmoon
01-02-2007, 11:25
If you're that worried about having the statistics rolling out the way they should, then maybe you should use computer-generated random dice rolls instead of searching for the 'perfect' physical dice.


oh like these....
[dice0]

No, I don't think the other player would like that much. Programs are even easier than dice to 'fix'.

After reading all this I'm definitely me some casino dice for my plasma gunners, and no I don't think having casino dice is anything like cheating. If that were the case than you'd only be allowed to use GW dice...oops... better keep my mouth shut or that might be a new 'rule' at tournaments.

Groksnag
01-02-2007, 11:39
I KNOW WHERE TO FIND PERFECT DICE
its anywhere you can get lots and lots of dice for very little money.
and cool colors.

Chiron
01-02-2007, 11:50
you people need help, really.... that or less money to waste

kermit
01-02-2007, 14:30
That picture is a 1 cent coin I believe? Does that make the dice 12mm? For all I know a cent could be bigger than an english £2 coin lol.

The Canadian and American penny is the same size... so after measuring it, the dice would be at the 20mm size... approximately...

FireN.Brimstone
01-02-2007, 14:44
The Canadian and American penny is the same size... so after measuring it, the dice would be at the 20mm size... approximately...

Actually I believe it's more the "standard" size (i.e. the size of monopoly die) 16mm. Or at least when I asked about other Gamescience dice on a different site those were 16mm.

Alessander
01-02-2007, 15:59
GW designed the game with non-casino dice. The rulebook calls for "standard" six sided dice, not casino ones.

The game is therefore designed for non-casino dice. Using casino dice makes the game different to the way it was designed to be played.

jfrazell
01-02-2007, 17:18
GW designed the game with non-casino dice. The rulebook calls for "standard" six sided dice, not casino ones.

The game is therefore designed for non-casino dice. Using casino dice makes the game different to the way it was designed to be played.

Um...no. Casino dice are just hyper balanced d6 dice. Now if you can get Sharon Stone to blow on them before you toss 'em, well thats a different story altogether :eek:

Barltok
01-02-2007, 21:14
Rolling 1's is more disadvantageous to certain armies over others. In fantasy for example, a dice roll determines if your dwarven flame cannon blows up every turn, or if one of your huge mobs of orc boys decides to fight itself. I haven't seen much 40k played, but I'm sure there are examples here too. While rolling a 1 is never a good thing for anyone, it does hurt a lot more for some than others.

Teufelskerl
02-02-2007, 13:48
Every once in a while, I need my faith reaffirmed, and I would like to thank those of you here who have done so.

Many years ago, I discovered the incredible fact that most gamers are completely ignorant of statistical theory; they even go so far as to be skeptical of it's existance and deride the importance of "statistics", using it as if it were a four letter word. At first, I tried to overcome this ignorance, thinking that if my fellow gamers simply had it explained to them, they would see why it mattered. I have since learned to it is easier training rocks to fly.

The "average" gamer treats statistics the way the Klan treats blacks; something to be feared and shunned, and kept as far away from them as possible.

How much ignorance does it take to call a 12% statistical deviance "insignificant"? How much, to believe that "so long as both I and my opponent use the same dice, it all evens out"?

My faith in my opponents ignorance and apathy has been reaffirmed; thank you.

For those of you who actually think that improving your knowledge might be a good thing, try taking a course or two on statistics. For those few of you who have find yourself in the same place as I, pull up a seat at the bar, I'll pour you a drink to drown your misery and we'll trade stories about the incompetant ****** we've had to deal with.


Frederich

LeeJerrum
02-02-2007, 15:04
Get somne loaded dice off sillyjokes.com

Just make sure you "drop" them, the way they roll makes it so obvious they're loaded!

jfrazell
02-02-2007, 16:27
Every once in a while, I need my faith reaffirmed, and I would like to thank those of you here who have done so.

Many years ago, I discovered the incredible fact that most gamers are completely ignorant of statistical theory; they even go so far as to be skeptical of it's existance and deride the importance of "statistics", using it as if it were a four letter word. At first, I tried to overcome this ignorance, thinking that if my fellow gamers simply had it explained to them, they would see why it mattered. I have since learned to it is easier training rocks to fly.

The "average" gamer treats statistics the way the Klan treats blacks; something to be feared and shunned, and kept as far away from them as possible.

How much ignorance does it take to call a 12% statistical deviance "insignificant"? How much, to believe that "so long as both I and my opponent use the same dice, it all evens out"?

My faith in my opponents ignorance and apathy has been reaffirmed; thank you.

For those of you who actually think that improving your knowledge might be a good thing, try taking a course or two on statistics. For those few of you who have find yourself in the same place as I, pull up a seat at the bar, I'll pour you a drink to drown your misery and we'll trade stories about the incompetant ****** we've had to deal with.


Frederich


Respectfully, you do know this is A GAME right?

*if persons want to procure the industry standard for balanced dice they can procure casino level dice. If they don't view it as important a priority they can use a brick of dice. If they don't care at all they can use GW dice :)

*making a statement that most players don't know statistics, other than generating a great big "weall...yeah," is not especially pertinent to the discussion.

J "you show me your Beta, I'll show you mine" Fraz

Warp Zero
02-02-2007, 17:06
For those of you who actually think that improving your knowledge might be a good thing, try taking a course or two on statistics. For those few of you who have find yourself in the same place as I, pull up a seat at the bar, I'll pour you a drink to drown your misery and we'll trade stories about the incompetant ****** we've had to deal with.


Frederich

Hmmm.....how much does it cost to take a course on statistics?
How much time will it take to finish the course?
How much money have I wasted by taking this course and not doing something else?

How much, in the end, is the value of being seen as not a "*****" in Frederich's eyes? :D

Think I'll just stick to winging it and buy whatever dice I like.

jfrazell
02-02-2007, 17:40
Hmmm.....how much does it cost to take a course on statistics?
How much time will it take to finish the course?
How much money have I wasted by taking this course and not doing something else?

How much, in the end, is the value of being seen as not a "*****" in Frederich's eyes? :D

Think I'll just stick to winging it and buy whatever dice I like.



Yea though I walk through the Valley of Statistics I shall fear no dice roll.

My calculator and my significant confidence are with me,

My regression manual it comforts me...

Don't forget:
Lies, damn lies, and statistics :evilgrin:

electricblooz
02-02-2007, 18:02
My regression manual it comforts me...

Don't forget:
Lies, damn lies, and statistics :evilgrin:

HEY! I strongly resemble that remark! :D

electricblooz
02-02-2007, 18:08
oh like these....
[dice0]

No, I don't think the other player would like that much. Programs are even easier than dice to 'fix'.


Heck, you don't even need to "fix" the program. Many first-generation, (read low-end) computer-based random number generators are anything but random. Shoot, I demonstrated that in 9th grade science-fair project 25 years ago and won an award from the Air Force for it....


That being said, can some one point me to the instructions for using the dice code? I can't figure out how to use it to save my life.